Do Souls Exist?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-05 07:28pm

Again, influenced by an SB.com thread, do souls in the classical sense exist?

If you want to see what I'm getting at, here is the thread in question:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=45775

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-03-05 07:33pm

Possibly, but maybe in an unclassical sense.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-05 07:40pm

I don't see how a soul, as we think of it, can exist.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-05 07:46pm

Yes.

Can I prove it? No.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-03-05 07:49pm

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2003-03-05 07:53pm

I believe souls exist.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-03-05 07:56pm

I do not believe that souls exist.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-05 08:36pm

There is no evidence to support the idea that they do exist.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-05 08:40pm

Physical alterations of the brain have been observed to control personality and memory. People with separated lobes actually develop two different personalities. If there is a such thing as a soul, it obviously doesn't carry your memory or personality with it when it leaves, so it's not what you think it is.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2003-03-05 08:41pm

The closest we have to a soul is the electrical impulses from our body being alive...that's about as close as we got to something like that.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-05 08:43pm

ive read reports of very young kids knowing intimate details about people in extremely distant places, always people who died around the time of the childs growth during pregnancy. tibetans have used this as the sole method of determining whose the next Dalai Lama -- going around and asking very young kids to pick items from a group of items, half owned by the previous Dalai Lama, and half similar but not identical items. The child that becomes the next Dalai Lama always lays claim to items by examining them and saying why he thinks its "right". The present Dalai Lama even managed to find where his glasses were in the Potala without having been there (He literally sai "my glasses are in there!").

I also think that if we do indeed have free will, there needs to be some mechanism that prevents us from being purely mathematically predictable beings. Quantum mechanics and uncertainty would do this, so our souls may be nothing more then randomness. But I don't feel like I'm random.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-05 08:49pm

Being a scientist, I too would go with the whole "we are merely a matrix of neurones and electrochemical signals, nothing more" stance.

I am curious about the whole idea though, it doesn't seem feasible but it would be weird if such a thing existed as a sort of memory we took with us as we went from physical forms (if you believe in reincarnation).

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-03-05 08:51pm

kojikun wrote: I also think that if we do indeed have free will, there needs to be some mechanism that prevents us from being purely mathematically predictable beings. Quantum mechanics and uncertainty would do this, so our souls may be nothing more then randomness. But I don't feel like I'm random.

No, no.. you're pretty random.

Can a soul be proven? Not likely. But I like to think of it in this way. It is my soul that dictates that I have more to live for than my selfish existence. I like to believe that I have the ability to sacrifice myself for some greater purpose outside of my immediate desires.

If you compare our brains with other primates or mammals for that matter, there's hardly any difference yet something gives us the ability of reasoning, emotions, and foresight. Many scientists have empirically attributed this to your frontal lobes, but even without our frontal lobes we can still operate a human level.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 08:55pm

I don't believe in 'life' after death; I do believe in consciousness after death, however. I read the same shit Kojikun read about the Dali Lama, there, too. Too many strange things happen for us to solely govern free will and the universe itself on just reason and the supposed mechanical determinism of the brain.

How can QM control your brain, anyway? isn't it too small and random to be able to do anything worthwhile in the larger scheme of things?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-05 08:56pm

Trytostaydead wrote:If you compare our brains with other primates or mammals for that matter, there's hardly any difference yet something gives us the ability of reasoning, emotions, and foresight. Many scientists have empirically attributed this to your frontal lobes, but even without our frontal lobes we can still operate a human level.

"Reasoning, emotions, and foresight"? You are assuming that reasoning is unique to humans, when we merely have the greatest capacity for it. Emotions are certainly NOT unique to humans, as anyone can attest who has heard a dog cry or seen a mother chimp grieving for its slain child. And frankly, foresight is not present in 90% of humans.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 09:00pm

I also like to think that science'll never explain certain things totally, and things that metaphysical speculation can't explain without rationality. A "soul" in the classical sense would definitely be purely metaphysical.

Edit: Grammar correction.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-05 09:05pm

kojikun wrote:ive read reports of very young kids knowing intimate details about people in extremely distant places, always people who died around the time of the childs growth during pregnancy. tibetans have used this as the sole method of determining whose the next Dalai Lama -- going around and asking very young kids to pick items from a group of items, half owned by the previous Dalai Lama, and half similar but not identical items. The child that becomes the next Dalai Lama always lays claim to items by examining them and saying why he thinks its "right". The present Dalai Lama even managed to find where his glasses were in the Potala without having been there (He literally sai "my glasses are in there!").

I also think that if we do indeed have free will, there needs to be some mechanism that prevents us from being purely mathematically predictable beings. Quantum mechanics and uncertainty would do this, so our souls may be nothing more then randomness. But I don't feel like I'm random.

Really, I feel completely random. There are thousands of things I could have name that would have made me a completely different person had they gone another way.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-05 09:07pm

One of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard for the existence of the soul:

"Studies have shown that within a few seconds after a person's death, the mass of his/her body decreases slightly, indicating that something has "left" the body."

This one almost refutes itself.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 09:07pm

I think what he means by "random" is by the workings of the mind, not spontanious decisions. If he says otherwise, he IS random.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-03-05 09:10pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Again, influenced by an SB.com thread, do souls in the classical sense exist?

If you want to see what I'm getting at, here is the thread in question:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=45775

To say that things have souls would be to imply that there is some sort of supernatural entity or energy field that inhabits a given body for some amount of time, and then leaves when the body dies, without leaving so much as a recordable trace.

And yet, we can demonstrate that a human or animal is merely the sum of the connections and interactions between their neurons. We can throw somebody into a PET machine, or glue electrodes into their scalp, or stimulate different bits of their brain, and watch what happens.

And that is why I am saying that the concept of a "soul," at least the way it is laid out in that thread, is hogwash.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-05 09:14pm

Really, I feel completely random. There are thousands of things I could have name that would have made me a completely different person had they gone another way.

I never said anything about other people being completely random

<Mike>

I agree that if the soul exists, it isnt what most assume it to be. But I think it might actually have some ability to contain some faint record of memory. Possibly. If anything, the soul is consciousness at its most fundemental levels, more then just awareness of what one is thinking and the ability to change that (computers know what theyre processing and can change what theyre processing of theyre own volition but arent anything remotely like humans, even tho this is supposedly the thing that seperates humans from animals).

Or perhaps we're some bizzare creatures made of thought who have all taken part in an experiment to see what it would be like to have some physical form and dont have memories from our thought bodies.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-05 09:16pm

I don't know, I think it's an abstract concept that exists if you believe it does.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-03-05 09:16pm

The body operates solely(Ha! A pun!) on chemical processes.

But I believe that there is a soul.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 09:18pm

I personally don't see the point of living if there is only unconscious nothing after death. If that is the case, everyone should be killing themselves in record numbers to reach this comforting, blissful blankness.

I know I would. (I'm not suicidal, and my life isn't too bad, but still...eternal sleep. Sounds fun.

)

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-03-05 09:25pm

As an atheist who does not believe in the existence of God because it cannot be proven, and because there are numerous compelling reasons to doubt it, I find myself unable to believe in a soul for precisely the same reasons.

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