Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

WSJ article
Robert Frank wrote:I’ve written before about the myth of sudden inequality. While income inequality has increased dramatically over the past 30 years, it’s declined since 2007 and wealth inequality is actually lower than it was in 1995 – raising questions about the link between inequality and the current unemployment rate.

A new report puts an even finer point on changes in inequality.

“Basically,” the report finds “income inequality hasn’t changed in 25 years.”

The study, by Ronald M. Schmidt, of the William E. Simon Graduate School of Business Administration University of Rochester, challenges the recent CBO report that found that income inequality expanded dramatically between 1979 and 2007. That report said the incomes of the top 1% grew by 275% over the period, while incomes for most Americans grew by 40% or less.

Schmidt’s study said that most of the CBO’s cited growth in inequality happened between 1979 and 1986. “Most of the increase from 1979 and 2009 had occurred by 1986,” he writes.

Any increases in inequality during the 2000s was “wiped out” by the current recession, which saw incomes at the top fall more than the rest as of 2009. “In fact,” he writes, “there was a marked decline in income inequality over the entire decade” of the 2000s.

I should note that the post-2009 data may tell a different story. Inequality may well have dipped temporarily in 2009 but rebounded with stock markets in 2010 and 2011. Inequality may actually be higher today than it was in 2007. And even if it’s not, inequality in America is still high compared to other developed countries.

But as Schmidt points out, the most current data shows that the difference in average after-tax incomes between those making more than $500,000 and those making less than $500,000 was $1.5 million in 2000. That distance shrunk by $450,000 by 2009.

“A careful analysis reveals no significant deterioration in economic inequality that could serve as a pretext for raising taxes,” Schmidt argues.

Do you think “rising” inequality is a good reason to raise taxes on the rich?
Demos article
Jack Temple wrote:If you take away nothing else from President Obama's address yesterday, make sure you hold on to this point: What today's record-high levels of economic inequality prove, once and for all, is that trickle-down economics is a fantasy that has not delivered on its promise to provide shared prosperity.

Of course, I didn't expect the Right to sit still in the face of this criticism, but their response is puzzling: rather than defending the fairness of the free market, they have decided to deny that record-high levels of inequality even exist in the first place.

In his column yesterday in the Wall Street Journal, Robert Frank cited a report by Prof. Ronald M. Schmidt of the University of Rochester, who claims to have successfully invalidated the evidence of increasing economic inequality published in a recent and widely-cited CBO report. The report revealed that average real after-tax household income for the top 1 percent of households grew at a rate of 275 percent from 1979-2007, while income for the bottom 20 percent increased by only 18 percent in the same period.

Prof. Schmidt says this is nonsense:

In fact, there has been a marked decline in income inequality over the last decade. From 2000 to 2009, average [Adjusted Gross Income] declined by 15.0 percent and average after-tax income declined by 11.0 percent for returns with AGI of at least $500,000. (Filers with an AGI of at least $500,000 represent 0.5 percent of all returns in both years, so this comparison is similar in spirit to the CBO report, which looks at the top 1 percent of households.) For all other returns, there were increases of 14.6 percent for average AGI and 17.3 percent for average after-tax income.

There seems to be some fuzzy math going on here. First, he shifts the time frame to 2000-2009, which is significant given the steep economic decline that occurred in the beginning of that decade before incomes started rising again. The CBO report explains it clearly:

After falling sharply in 2001 because of the recession and stock market drop, average real after-tax income for the top 1 percent of the population rose by more than 85 percent between 2002 and 2007.

In other words, sure, if you select a time frame that folds in a period of steep income decline with a period of steep income increases, then the overall average is going to appear less dramatic -- but it would also obscure the point that incomes for the wealthiest 1 percent can bounce back vigorously even after a serious recession. The same cannot be said for middle class incomes.

Second, he divides all income earners into two categories: those making at least $500,000 per year, and those making less than $500,000. This doesn't exactly sound like an accurate split between the "haves" and the "have-nots" -- yes, granted, it does (roughly) separate the richest 1 percent from the remaining 99 percent, but the claim by OWS. about the declining welfare of "the 99 percent" is really meant to be taken as more of a rhetorical gesture.

While the richest 1 percent have enjoyed run-away levels of income growth, it's important to note that the rest of the top quintile has still enjoyed favorable growth rates relative to the bottom 80 percent. Household incomes for the 81st-99th percentile have grown at a rate of 65 percent from 1979-2007: while this is, admittedly, more than 4 times slower than the rate of growth enjoyed by the top 1 percent, it is also almost 4 times faster than the rate of income growth experience by the lowest quintile (which, as I mentioned above, was a measly 18 percent). Bottom line: if you treat everyone from the 99th percentile on down as one group, you'll obscure the inequality that exists within this grouping, making their collective economic welfare seem better than it is.

Manipulating the numbers won't erase what Americans now overwhelmingly know to be true: While the incomes of the richest 1 percent may be volatile, they abolustely do not trickle down.

I'd be interested in going back further in time to the 20th century and prior to see how income inequality progressed.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Number Theoretic »

If you settle for going back only 50 years, the Gini coefficient might be insightful:
Image

It's basically a rough measure of the inequality of wealth in a given population. The graph seems to support the claim that inequality hasn't changed that much. And if you read on the Pareto principle, on which this coefficient is somwhat based on, you'll find that it is a surprisingly general property.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by PeZook »

So, the US still has a GINI coefficient 30% higher than the next developed country in line, but it's not a problem because it stayed constant for the last fifty years? :D
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Serafina »

PeZook wrote:So, the US still has a GINI coefficient 30% higher than the next developed country in line, but it's not a problem because it stayed constant for the last fifty years? :D
Especially since it ALSO stayed constant in most other developed countries - except for a rise in the UK and severe drops in France and Italy.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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Using a computed Gini coefficient, a single number, to analyze nations wealth inequality over decades is amazingly silly.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Xon wrote:Using a computed Gini coefficient, a single number, to analyze nations wealth inequality over decades is amazingly silly.
Actually, it works surprisingly well. Sometimes, you have to use a proxy measurement or a composite like GINI to measure these things, or analysis becomes too complicated to do.

Line graphs like this can be really really deceptive, as they can obscure overall trends. It is a trick of your eyes. You see all these little line segments bouncing all over the place, some high, some low, and you dont see the actual relationship.

Take a look at a few countries.

Bulgaria: In the low to mid 20s until communism ended, then it spikes up into the low thirties.

Norway: Dropped from the upper 30s to the mid 20s

US: Mid to high thirties into the low to mid 40s.

These are trends you can see if you draw a trend-line in your head instead of looking at all the obfuscating little squiggles.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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Xon wrote:Using a computed Gini coefficient, a single number, to analyze nations wealth inequality over decades is amazingly silly.
Yes, analyzing the wealth inequality in a country using the Gini coefficient is silly, since the Gini coefficient measures income inequality.

But for that it does a decent job. It is relatively easy to calculate, you can compare its development over time, and it gives a good overview of the situation. Does it tell the whole story? Of course not - but its not supposed to.

As for the situation not changing much in the US: Thats BS. Until the 1980s it was in the region of 35-37. Since then it has more or less steadily risen up to 43-44 today.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Lord Zentei »

Xon wrote:Using a computed Gini coefficient, a single number, to analyze nations wealth inequality over decades is amazingly silly.
It measures income inequality. And you need to provide justifications for such a sweeping claim.

Not that it matters: in economics, there are multiple measures of income inequality.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Simon_Jester »

D.Turtle wrote:Yes, analyzing the wealth inequality in a country using the Gini coefficient is silly, since the Gini coefficient measures income inequality.

But for that it does a decent job. It is relatively easy to calculate, you can compare its development over time, and it gives a good overview of the situation. Does it tell the whole story? Of course not - but its not supposed to.

As for the situation not changing much in the US: Thats BS. Until the 1980s it was in the region of 35-37. Since then it has more or less steadily risen up to 43-44 today.
Although you could probably get a primitive guess at wealth inequality by integrating the Gini coefficient: how much wealth you accumulate would tend to crudely approximate how much income you have, added up over time. Integrate the larger numbers on that curve and you'll get much larger shares of wealth going to the people at the top. The more money they make, the more capital they accumulate, in what they would call a "virtuous cycle." After fifty years of making a large share of all the money in a country, you'd expect the elite to own a much larger share than they would otherwise.

That's not a mathematically rigorous prediction, mind you.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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Simon_Jester wrote:Although you could probably get a primitive guess at wealth inequality by integrating the Gini coefficient: how much wealth you accumulate would tend to crudely approximate how much income you have, added up over time. Integrate the larger numbers on that curve and you'll get much larger shares of wealth going to the people at the top. The more money they make, the more capital they accumulate, in what they would call a "virtuous cycle." After fifty years of making a large share of all the money in a country, you'd expect the elite to own a much larger share than they would otherwise.

That's not a mathematically rigorous prediction, mind you.
Oh, there's definitely a relationship between income inequality and wealth inequality. But the "normal" Gini index everyone uses is for income inequality. Since the Gini coefficient is just a number representing the difference between the "completely equal" distribution and the real distribution, you can also look at the "wealth gini". However data for wealth distribution is a lot harder to gather, and there isn't as much historical data in comparison to income distribution. The study that that wiki list is based on, is however quite interesting.

The US has one of the highest levels of wealth inequality in the world (roughly 0.8), pretty much the same as the level for the entire world - most other developed countries are lower (around 0.65-0.75).
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Number Theoretic »

Apologies for talking incorrectly about "wealth inequality" and that it supposedly is measured by the Gini index.

On the other hand, i just discovered that the OP was indeed asking for income inequality:
IRG CommandoJoe wrote:I'd be interested in going back further in time to the 20th century and prior to see how income inequality progressed.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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IRG CommandoJoe wrote:
Demos article
Jack Temple wrote:Prof. Schmidt says this is nonsense:

In fact, there has been a marked decline in income inequality over the last decade. From 2000 to 2009, average [Adjusted Gross Income] declined by 15.0 percent and average after-tax income declined by 11.0 percent for returns with AGI of at least $500,000. (Filers with an AGI of at least $500,000 represent 0.5 percent of all returns in both years, so this comparison is similar in spirit to the CBO report, which looks at the top 1 percent of households.) For all other returns, there were increases of 14.6 percent for average AGI and 17.3 percent for average after-tax income.
Like Jack Temple, I would love to see percentile breakdowns on the same figures.

As for that bit about the super rich losing a lot in the crash...

Their recession was over long ago
- Executive pay rose by 23% last year.
- the number of U.S. households with at least $1 million in "bankable" assets climbed 15% last year to 4.7 million after tumbling 21% in 2008.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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Number Theoretic wrote:Apologies for talking incorrectly about "wealth inequality" and that it supposedly is measured by the Gini index.

On the other hand, i just discovered that the OP was indeed asking for income inequality:
IRG CommandoJoe wrote:I'd be interested in going back further in time to the 20th century and prior to see how income inequality progressed.
Yes he did - and the Gini coefficient is very useful for that, as it gives a quick and easy way of measuring income inequality. If you think that that is silly, you'll have to explain why.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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D.Turtle wrote: Yes he did - and the Gini coefficient is very useful for that, as it gives a quick and easy way of measuring income inequality. If you think that that is silly, you'll have to explain why.
Nope, i completely agree with you. The thought that you could use the Gini coefficient to obtain even a rough impression of the distribution of wealth was the reason why i posted it. My second post was intended as a justification of why it still makes sense to talk about the Gini coefficient.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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Huh, I didn't realize you were the one who posted that.

Then I really have no idea why you wrote this:
Using a computed Gini coefficient, a single number, to analyze nations wealth inequality over decades is amazingly silly.
It seems to imply the opposite of what you are saying. Maybe you miswrote something? I have no idea - feel free to elaborate (or not) ;)
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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D.Turtle wrote:Huh, I didn't realize you were the one who posted that.

Then I really have no idea why you wrote this:
Using a computed Gini coefficient, a single number, to analyze nations wealth inequality over decades is amazingly silly.
It seems to imply the opposite of what you are saying. Maybe you miswrote something? I have no idea - feel free to elaborate (or not) ;)
You somehow mistakenly quoted Xon.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Xon »

The first article itself is doing a bait and switch between talking about "inequality" in general, and then specifically using income inequality to demonstrate that a "sudden inequality" isn't posible to exist.
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Xon wrote:Using a computed Gini coefficient, a single number, to analyze nations wealth inequality over decades is amazingly silly.
It measures income inequality. And you need to provide justifications for such a sweeping claim.
Using any single number in an attempt to analyze an economy of millions to billions of people is very silly because it abstracts too much away. Using that single number without rigorous understanding of how it is generated, and what it ignores is foolish at best and deceptive at worst.

Also, it's quite easy for income inequality via gini coefficients to not change significantly despite a significant change in wealth inequality occuring.
Not that it matters: in economics, there are multiple measures of income inequality.
A major problem is how "income" is defined and income for whom, and if those values are even inflation adjusted or even adjusted for differences in currency(and thus relative purchasing power).
Simon_Jester wrote:Although you could probably get a primitive guess at wealth inequality by integrating the Gini coefficient
That would be a laughable attempt at describing wealth inequality, as it ignores relative expendature at a given income level and has the assumption that money isn't actually spent.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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IRG CommandoJoe wrote:You somehow mistakenly quoted Xon.
No wonder I was confused - I didn't realize it was two different people...
Xon wrote:Using any single number in an attempt to analyze an economy of millions to billions of people is very silly because it abstracts too much away. Using that single number without rigorous understanding of how it is generated, and what it ignores is foolish at best and deceptive at worst.
So is using GDP foolish and deceptive? Is the HDI foolish and deceptive? Obviously a lot is abstracted away - but a lot of information can also be easily described and understood that way.
Also, it's quite easy for income inequality via gini coefficients to not change significantly despite a significant change in wealth inequality occuring.
While it is very easily possible to construct theoretical changes in order to have very different distributions with the same Gini coefficient, that doesn't really happen in the real world. The biggest problem with the Gini coefficient is that it is not possible to directly combine the Gini coefficient of several countries or regions in order to have an overall Gini coefficient. Instead it has to be calculated separately for each group/region/country that you want to examine.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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Xon wrote:That would be a laughable attempt at describing wealth inequality, as it ignores relative expendature at a given income level and has the assumption that money isn't actually spent.
When I say primitive, I mean hardcore Stone Age primitive. ;)

Yes, obviously, the problem is immensely complex. I was just trying to touch on the obvious aspect. If you have two otherwise identical societies A and B, and A has an oligarchy with much higher incomes than the rest of the public while B does not (or has a smaller/poorer oligarchy), then over time, on average, insert qualifiers here, society A will see its wealth distribution shifted in favor of the rich faster than society B.

On some crude level, a person's income is a measure of how fast they accumulate wealth, although it obviously doesn't work very well as such a measure for the average person because normal people (unlike super-wealthy people) can easily upscale the amount they spend on things, in direct proportion to the amount of money they make.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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D.Turtle wrote:While it is very easily possible to construct theoretical changes in order to have very different distributions with the same Gini coefficient, that doesn't really happen in the real world. The biggest problem with the Gini coefficient is that it is not possible to directly combine the Gini coefficient of several countries or regions in order to have an overall Gini coefficient. Instead it has to be calculated separately for each group/region/country that you want to examine.
Gini coefficient is practically worthless for determining wealth inequality because it doesn't even try to account for changes in expendature relative to income. It's bloody trivial to find real life situations where the Gini coefficient doesn't change but due to changes in expenditure, the overall wealth/spending power actually decreases for given groups!

Gini coefficient is fine if you want a way to summarize income inequality(and you are careful about what is considered 'income'), but it's not going to be useful if you don't know how much is being spent to determine wealth inequality (which was what the poorly titled OP's article was about).

That you don't grasp that is amazing.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

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Xon wrote:Gini coefficient is practically worthless for determining wealth inequality because it doesn't even try to account for changes in expendature relative to income.
Yes, I already said that the normal Gini coefficient isn't very useful for looking at wealth inequality. But then nobody was really talking about using the Gini coefficient to measure wealth inequality (except for Number Theoretic mistakenly saying that Gini measures wealth inequality, and some stuff that Simon_Jester wrote, but was largely an irrelevant side-track). The articles are mostly talking about income inequality. The first article mentions that wealth inequality has supposedly declined since 2007 and is lower than in 1995, but all numbers mentioned in the article concern income inequality, so I have no idea where that claim comes from.
It's bloody trivial to find real life situations where the Gini coefficient doesn't change but due to changes in expenditure, the overall wealth/spending power actually decreases for given groups!
But then you are asking a different question. In effect you are asking after disposable income, or income after taxes and transfers. So, then look at the Gini coefficient after taxes. Obviously, when looking at statistics you always have to have in mind what those statistics are measuring. If you want to ask a different question (disposable income vs nominal income, for example), then look at data that measures something that helps you answer that question.
Gini coefficient is fine if you want a way to summarize income inequality(and you are careful about what is considered 'income'), but it's not going to be useful if you don't know how much is being spent to determine wealth inequality (which was what the poorly titled OP's article was about).
Well, obviously if you want to look at something different (like wealth instead of income), then you should ideally look at something that looks at that. So, if you want to look at wealth inequality, then look at the gini coefficient for wealth inequality.
That you don't grasp that is amazing.
I don't get what your problem is. You are saying that you can't really use something that measures income to look at wealth. Well, duh. The problem with using the normal Gini coefficient to look at wealth inequality is not that there is a single number, but that that single number represents something different - namely income inequality.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Lord Zentei »

Xon wrote:Using any single number in an attempt to analyze an economy of millions to billions of people is very silly because it abstracts too much away. Using that single number without rigorous understanding of how it is generated, and what it ignores is foolish at best and deceptive at worst.
Are you fucking retarded? Income inequality is one statistic of an economy. The GINI index is not a measure that anyone claims to analyze the entire of the entire economy, it's just one measure for one aspect of it. Moreover, expressing the inequality of a specific statistic can indeed be measured by a single number, and is measured that way in a variety of fields. Often, other measures, such as standard deviation are used instead; not that this matters.
Xon wrote:Also, it's quite easy for income inequality via gini coefficients to not change significantly despite a significant change in wealth inequality occuring.
Prove this claim.
Xon wrote:A major problem is how "income" is defined and income for whom, and if those values are even inflation adjusted or even adjusted for differences in currency(and thus relative purchasing power).
Income is defined in terms of something called "money". Since the GINI coefficient is a snapshot of income inequality for a given point in time, inflation isn't even relevant. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

What are some ways of decreasing income inequality? What did Norway do to achieve its results?
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Xon »

Lord Zentei wrote:Prove this claim.
That you can't see that someone's total wealth can change without thier income changing is rather disturbing. Hint; there is thing called expendatures and tax liabilities. How changes in expendature affect income is a much murkier problem, and not one the gini coefficient measures.
Income is defined in terms of something called "money". Since the GINI coefficient is a snapshot of income inequality for a given point in time, inflation isn't even relevant. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
The Gini coefficients assume every montary unit in the set has the same value. This is why it doesn't work between countries(as they have different offiical inflation rates) and as what is regarded as "income" has to be carefully controlled for as you will run into the 'fun' stuff of assigning a montary value to something which has been offset by future/past events or potential future/past events (which do need to be inflation adjusted for).

Defining what is 'income' is also subjected to potentially significant bias too;
wiki link describing 'General problems of measurement' for gini index wrote:The Soviet Union was measured to have relatively high income inequality: by some estimates, in the late 1970s, Gini coefficient of its urban population was as high as 0.38,[15] which is higher than many Western countries today. This number would not reflect those benefits received by Soviet citizens that were not monetized for measurement, which may include child care for children as young as two months, elementary, secondary and higher education, cradle-to-grave medical care, and heavily subsidized or provided housing. In this example, a more accurate comparison between the 1970s Soviet Union and Western countries may require one to assign monetary values to all benefits – a difficult task in the absence of free markets. Similar problems arise whenever a comparison between more liberalized economies and partially socialist economies is attempted. Benefits may take various and unexpected forms: for example, major oil producers such as Venezuela and Iran provide indirect benefits to its citizens by subsidizing the retail price of gasoline.
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Xon
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Re: Income Inequality Hasn’t Changed in 25 Years

Post by Xon »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:What are some ways of decreasing income inequality? What did Norway do to achieve its results?
Cheap education, affordable housing, working medical care system, and a functional welfare system can help immensely.

Basicly, safetly nets which prevent a productive citizen from be sent into crushing poverty from a miss-step. Either by thier mistake or from external causes.
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
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