Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Turkey threatens France with sanctions

Post by Justforfun000 »

Regardless of whether or not this "genocide" happened in the way some believe it to be, why bother ramming through such a hard-ass law and pissing off a current ally and friend? Seems stupid to me...it's not going to bring anyone back, and when did curbing free speech (that isn't hate speech per se) ever bode well?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/20 ... cide-bill/
By Philippe Rater

PARIS — Turkey piled pressure on France Tuesday to drop a proposed law making it illegal to deny the Armenian genocide, warning its adoption will spark a diplomatic crisis and have economic consequences.

The French parliament is to debate the bill, which would see anyone in France who publicly denies the genocide facing a year in jail and a fine of US$58,000 (45,000 euros), on Thursday and is expected to approve it.

Armenia says up to 1.5 million of its people were killed during World War I by the forces of Turkey’s former Ottoman Empire, a figure Ankara disputes.
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Turkey gives France harsh warning over Armenian ‘genocide’ law

As a delegation of Turkish lawmakers and businessmen met with officials in Paris, Turkish President Abdullah Gul urged France to drop the bill.

“It is not possible for us to accept this bill, which denies us the freedom to reject unfair and groundless accusations targeting our country and our nation,” Gul said in a statement from Ankara.

“I want to hope that France will not sacrifice centuries-old Turkish-French friendship, common interests and bonds of alliance for small political calculations,” Gul said, alluding to next year’s elections in France.

The Turkish delegation met with Foreign Minister Alain Juppe and President Nicolas Sarkozy’s foreign policy advisor Jean-David Levitte, arguing the law was an attempt to win support among voters of Armenian origin ahead.

“Mr. Alain Juppe reminded his guests that Turkey is for France a friend and ally, with which it has always sought dialogue,” the foreign ministry said.

Juppe told the Turks that Paris and Ankara have many vital common interests and argued these were “sufficiently strong to overcome the challenges that might confront or relationship.”

France has a large population of Armenian descent seen as an important element of Sarkozy’s support base as he prepares for a tough re-election battle in April next year.

“Every five years this question comes up ahead of the elections,” said delegation member Umit Boyner, chairwoman of the Turkish Industry and Business Association.

“If this law is adopted, there will be a lot of damage and consequences for the two countries,” warned Rifat Hisarciklioglu, the head of the Turkish Union of Chambers and Commodity Exchanges, who was leading the delegation of Turkish businessmen.

Turkey has urged France to block the bill, or face “serious and irreparable” consequences for Franco-Turkish relations.

Turkey is an important economic partner for France with about 12 billion euros in trade between the two countries in 2010.

A Turkish government source told AFP on Tuesday that it would impose diplomatic and trade sanctions on Paris if French lawmakers adopt the law.

“Turkey will not remain silent. That will obviously have consequences,” the source said. “We have already discussed our plans if the bill is adopted at the French National Assembly on Thursday.”

Among the sanctions, Turkey will recall its ambassador to Paris for consultations and ask the French ambassador in Ankara to leave, the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Ankara is also planning trade sanctions targeting French interests in the country, though the government has so far avoided openly using the term of “boycott” against French products.

Close to 1,000 French companies in Turkey, as well as those in partnership with Turkish companies, will be excluded from public contracts, especially in the field of transport, according to the source.

The French foreign ministry spokesman, Bernard Valero, however said Turkey was bound by international agreements to not discriminate against French companies.

Turkey “is a member of the World Trade Organization and is linked to the European Union by a customs union agreement. These two legal commitments require non-discrimination in regards to EU companies,” the source said.

Turkey rejects the term genocide and says between 300,000 and 500,000 Armenians, and at least as many Turks, died in combat or from starvation when Armenians rose up and sided with invading Russian forces.

Most historians agree that between 500,000 and 1.5 million Armenians died in a series of massacres and deportations from Asia Minor in the Ottoman Empire in 1915 and 1916.

France recognized the killings as genocide in 2001.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

Post by Serafina »

Maybe because genocide is something that ought to be condemned, and outright denial of proven genocides does just the opposite?
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

Post by Justforfun000 »

Maybe because genocide is something that ought to be condemned, and outright denial of proven genocides does just the opposite?
I understand, but it just seems like it's a bit extreme to bother with this level of insistence. So what if someone wants to challenge evidence? We have it happen all the time here in regards to a multitude of issues, not the least of which is science versus religion..

Does France have a particular axe to grind in regards to this? I'm honestly not that familiar with the story...

Edit: Scratch that...I read it again. Voting base. :wink:
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Oh noes, the poor Turks might actually have to hear about what they did. The horror. I have so much sympathy for their nationalism.


That being said, the law is pretty stupid as the Armenian genocide is really not comparable to the holocaust.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Even laws criminalizing Holocaust denial are too anti-free speech and I disagree with them, except maybe in Germany.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Thanas wrote:Oh noes, the poor Turks might actually have to hear about what they did. The horror. I have so much sympathy for their nationalism.
Perhaps they should follow the German example on acknowledging past atrocities. Doing so does not seem to have hurt Germany in the least. Indeed, it probably helped repair some of the damage the Nazis did to their good name. Of course, there still exist people with irrational bias towards present Germans who weren't even born back in WWII, but of all the atrocity commiters from that time (and I include my own country in this, as by the end no one's hands were clean) I'd say the Germans have done the best job of not only admitting "yeah, some really fucking horrible shit happened" but showing a rejection of those actions and demonstrating a change in societal memes.

When a nation continually denies doing something horrific like a well documented genocide I'm inclined to worry about a repeat offense and tend not to view them as trustworthy.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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I see no rational reason why free speech should be restricted in such a manner in France. It sounds to me like yet another attempt to look like they are ‘doing something’ about the problems with have with the domestic Muslim population in a manner which is high profile, but totally worthless in practice.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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How does this affect the muslim population, considering the Armenians were christians?
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Thanas wrote:How does this affect the muslim population, considering the Armenians were christians?
But the Ottomans were not.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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So? Maybe I just do not get it but what do you think the angle is here and why does it have anything to do with the muslim immigrants from Algeria?
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

Post by General Mung Beans »

Turkey seems to be losing it increasingly in politics.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Thanas wrote:So? Maybe I just do not get it but what do you think the angle is here and why does it have anything to do with the muslim immigrants from Algeria?
I don't know what the angle is; I was just pointing out that one of the parties to the genocide (the party committing it) was a majority Muslim empire. Maybe Sea Skimmer thinks that it's just a general "fuck you" to the Muslim world? I dunno.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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All in all I just personally feel that people should stop reliving the past so much. Obviously there has to be acknowledgement and remembrance because as was wisely said, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it..but going so far as to actually creating a criminal offence for even publicly speaking a position? You are better off to LET them speak and then ridicule the hell out of them!

Suppression of free speech can work yes, and as seen in North Korea, totalitarian control over practically all forms of media, propoganda, military and government can for a time sustain a regime..but isn't it becoming obvious that the most prosperous, long lasting, peaceful and stable countries in the world are openly free and democratic in many ways that include free speech and right to protest?

We can all agree or disagree..but when you can't even be allowed to make the argument...well... :?:
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Thanas wrote:How does this affect the muslim population, considering the Armenians were christians?
Christians killed by a bunch of out of control Muslims who deny they did it. Its just a do nothing policy to try to make sure the muslims know their place while skirting around the real issues of French internal political problems with integration after decades of pretending they don't exist, after they got tired of open discrmination against everyone from Algeria. I'm totally open to other suggestions of why France would consider this important enough that free speech must be suppressed, but I doubt any other reason is going to make more sense. Remember the veil ban, enacted last year with ridiculous claims of protecting French culture from barely 2,000 people in France who actually used one? Something like one in a thousand practicing French Muslim women.... Maybe France should look after its own history first, and say pass a law to prevent denial of all the crimes they committed trying to keep Algeria as part of France until it broke the whole country.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Turkey should erect some kind of Algerian Fuck-France Memorial then to commemorate France's assholery in the past. Between that and the French's Armenian genocide law thing, both their diplomatic dickeries will result in at least raising some historical awareness on the horrible things they did.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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To fallow up on shroom. I believe now would be a good time for Turkey to fallow up with a fuckhuge monument to Ho Chi Minh holding a middle finger up and facing Paris.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't support the Turks in any way. I am just a HCM fanboy and think it would be funny.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

That would be great. And maybe like a 3D interactive roller coaster ride themed on French "death flights" where the viewers can pretend to be some drugged Algerian rebel or activist about to be thrown off the plane and into the ocean by the perfidious French. :lol:
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Given that France is the second biggest export market for Turkey, I suspect they'd be hurting themselves more than they'd be hurting France. :lol:
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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It would also severely hurt their efforts to join the EU, as well as efforts to cooperate with the EU.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Sea Skimmer wrote:Christians killed by a bunch of out of control Muslims who deny they did it. Its just a do nothing policy to try to make sure the muslims know their place while skirting around the real issues of French internal political problems with integration after decades of pretending they don't exist, after they got tired of open discrmination against everyone from Algeria. I'm totally open to other suggestions of why France would consider this important enough that free speech must be suppressed, but I doubt any other reason is going to make more sense. Remember the veil ban, enacted last year with ridiculous claims of protecting French culture from barely 2,000 people in France who actually used one? Something like one in a thousand practicing French Muslim women.... Maybe France should look after its own history first, and say pass a law to prevent denial of all the crimes they committed trying to keep Algeria as part of France until it broke the whole country.
Ah, because there was one such law it automatically follows that all other laws are of the same intent. That doesn't make much sense to me, especially considering other parliaments had to deal with such laws as well (it was proposed in the German Government to pass a similar thing and an acknowledgement that it was genocide, for example). This seems to be more of a general trend in Europe than something borne out of specific French problems.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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It sounds to me like Skimmer's more talking about the French being hypocritical on this issue than he is about it not being a general European thing.

To put none to fine a point on it, the French killed an enormous number of people in Algeria, and they did so much more recently than World War One, still within living memory. The death toll of the French war in Algeria was comparable in scale to the death toll of the Turks' massacres in Armenia. How much have the French done to acknowledge and make amends for this, compared to what they are asking the Turks to do?
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Serafina wrote:It would also severely hurt their efforts to join the EU, as well as efforts to cooperate with the EU.
Given that they're occupying a significant chunk of an EU member state, I don't see why merely slapping sanctions on another one is going to make much of a difference in that respect.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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Serafina wrote:It would also severely hurt their efforts to join the EU, as well as efforts to cooperate with the EU.
Sarkozy happens to be the number one opponent to Turkey joining the EU and has declared Turkey will never join, so that doesn't really matter. If Turkey is ever going to join the EU it will be so far in the future that sanctions now aren't going to matter.
Simon_Jester wrote:It sounds to me like Skimmer's more talking about the French being hypocritical on this issue than he is about it not being a general European thing.

To put none to fine a point on it, the French killed an enormous number of people in Algeria, and they did so much more recently than World War One, still within living memory. The death toll of the French war in Algeria was comparable in scale to the death toll of the Turks' massacres in Armenia. How much have the French done to acknowledge and make amends for this, compared to what they are asking the Turks to do?
That would more or less be the point. The French are just a bunch of hypocritical assholes. Germany I can understand more, since the Nazis directly drew on the Armenian genocide for inspiration, but I still have about fucking zero tolerance for suppression of free speech for purely political purposes.
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Re: Turkey threatens France with sanctions

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General Mung Beans wrote:Turkey seems to be losing it increasingly in politics.
No, the Turks have always been on a hair-trigger about any reference to the Armenian genocide. This is far from new.
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