Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

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Re: Best presidential candidate.

Post by General Mung Beans »

Starglider wrote:Ron Paul is the only main party candidate who gives a damn about civil rights, and who is even vaguely honest and true to his principles rather than vote-grabbing. With the US having the highest incarceration rate in the world by far, and sliding fast towards fascism,
You lost me there. Does the United States have severe problems regarding civil liberties? YES. But this does not mean we are becoming fascist anymore than FDR interning a 100,000 Japanese Americans meant he was an American Mussolini.

As for the OP's question Jon Huntsman by a mile, he's consistent, conservative, sane, competent, and I agree with him on practically every issue except Afghanistan.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by SirNitram »

Obama via least-bad.

Ron Paul? I can't realistically consider anyone who is opposed to keeping abortions legal.

Jon Huntsman lost me the instant he jettisoned his consistancy for being sane and started babbling about the global warming myth.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Lord Zentei »

SirNitram wrote:Jon Huntsman lost me the instant he jettisoned his consistancy for being sane and started babbling about the global warming myth.
Oh, for fuck's sake. I guess it was too much to expect.

Hilariously, Newt Gingrich is one GOP candidate who acknowledges global warming and has starred in bipartisan ads to promote awareness of it.

EDIT:

Still, there's his tweet from august:
I believe in evolution and trust scientists on global warming. Call me crazy.
Maybe his babbling about a "global warming myth" is just pandering to the choir in the hopes of getting more votes. Not much of an excuse, but I doubt that he'd truly change his actual opinion just like that.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Vendetta »

SirNitram wrote:Ron Paul? I can't realistically consider anyone who is opposed to keeping abortions legal.
The abortion issue shows, I think, the underlying pattern behind Ron Paul's so called civil liberties positions.

The truth is that he actually doesn't care for civil liberties. The positions where he seems to be advocating them are actually examples of him standing against federal government. He doesn't care that civil liberties are being infringed by the federal government because they are civil liberties, but because it is the federal government doing it.

Likewise he wants to overturn Roe vs. Wade because it represents the federal government telling states what to do. He doesn't care about the harm his position would do to the civil liberties of around 50% of the US population, as long as the federal government loses.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Lord Zentei »

^ Partially, but not exclusively. He really does not want civil liberties infringed upon in most cases (except that he is pro-life), but the fact that it's the federal government which does it makes it a doubly bad situation. On the states infringing on liberties, he generally opposes that too, but also maintains that they have more legal powers than the federal government. It's both a legalistic position and a civil liberties position.
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Re: Best presidential candidate.

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Starglider wrote:Ron Paul is the only main party candidate who gives a damn about civil rights
You don't seem to know much about Ron Paul. Ron Paul opposes the Civil Rights Act.

So fuck Ron Paul.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Zinegata »

Regardless of Ron Paul's other views, his fiscal policy should disqualify him from the presidency. Multiple currencies is insane.

Best without a doubt is Obama unless Huntsman somehow wins the nomination (not bloody likely), but even then Huntsman still has a lot to prove (I've been impressed by him in his appearances in talk shows like Fareed Zakaria's GPS, but I won't claim that it's a perfect and comprehensive way to judge a candidate).
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by bobalot »

Zinegata wrote:Regardless of Ron Paul's other views, his fiscal policy should disqualify him from the presidency. Multiple currencies is insane.
His Gold Standard wankery is another notable disqualifier.

I really don't understand why people claim that Ron Paul loves FREEDOM. All he wants is freedom from the Federal Government. He's quite okay with state governments discriminating over sexual preference, gender, race or religion.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Zinegata »

bobalot wrote:
Zinegata wrote:Regardless of Ron Paul's other views, his fiscal policy should disqualify him from the presidency. Multiple currencies is insane.
His Gold Standard wankery is another notable disqualifier.
It's worse than Gold Standard apparently. He wants to essentially de-regulate currency and give everyone and their mom the right to make up their own currency and let them compete in the American marketplace.

It only gets "watered down" (from this level of absolute crazy) to the Gold Standard because Paul believes that people will ultimately opt for currencies backed by precious metals.

He could be a bloody saint on every other policy matter (he ain't), but advocating this disqualifies him, period.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by General Mung Beans »

Vendetta wrote:
Likewise he wants to overturn Roe vs. Wade because it represents the federal government telling states what to do. He doesn't care about the harm his position would do to the civil liberties of around 50% of the US population, as long as the federal government loses.
From the pro-life perspective the right of fetuses to life trumps the right of a woman to choose abortion or not.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Starglider »

Zinegata wrote:He wants to essentially de-regulate currency and give everyone and their mom the right to make up their own currency and let them compete in the American marketplace. He could be a bloody saint on every other policy matter (he ain't), but advocating this disqualifies him, period.
Why? I assume you believe that no sane American would ever want to hold or use anything other than Federal Reserve Notes. So what possible harm could allowing a handful of wackos play with toy money do?
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Alphawolf55 »

I don't see how anyone can really support Ron Paul. Remember the whole Debt Ceiling issue? Now imagine that going on every year since Ron Paul refuses to pass unbalanced budgets, and he also refuses to raise taxes. So he'd either destroy the economy by reducing spending by a trillion dollars or he'd refuse to ever pass a budget unless Congress ganged up on him.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Simon_Jester »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Keep in mind that we had a balanced budget in the 90's. What broke it was the economy slowing down. Then, the government had to loosen things up a little to regain momentum.
That was with tax rates at Clinton levels.

Since then, Bush has cut taxes (and Obama layered a few more tax cuts onto that), but there have not been corresponding decreases in spending. That puts us in position for a structural deficit- because our tax rates are below what was needed to pay for roughly the same government we have now, even in good economic times.

During the best years after the '90s were over, say 2003-06, we still ran a deficit.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Zaune »

Starglider wrote:Why? I assume you believe that no sane American would ever want to hold or use anything other than Federal Reserve Notes. So what possible harm could allowing a handful of wackos play with toy money do?
What happens if Paul's so convinced that his plan to let market forces decide the medium of exchange is the One True Way Forward that he takes it upon himself to abolish Federal Reserve Notes? After all, why would anyone need a way of going back to the old way of doing things if his big idea didn't pan out? It might make them hesitant to fully embrace it!
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Ron Paul is willing to do a long term transition; he doesn't think he'll shrink the government overnight. I can't find the quote now, be he talked about this in a little detail when someone asked him about Medicare and Social Security.

Keep in mind that we had a balanced budget in the 90's. What broke it was the economy slowing down. Then, the government had to loosen things up a little to regain momentum. Then, of course, 9/11 made things worse.

But, the recession brings me to my concern: I don't know if he's willing to use monetary policy as a tool to stabilize the economy, even in the short term. I know he doesn't like it long term, but I'm not sure about short term. I'm thinking most probably "no" though, since part of his long term plan is to dismantle those tools as well.
His plan for balancing the budget is a 5 year plan. It assumes he'll get 1 trillion in spending cuts and that the country will experience 10% annual growth.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Starglider »

Zaune wrote:What happens if Paul's so convinced that his plan to let market forces decide the medium of exchange is the One True Way Forward that he takes it upon himself to abolish Federal Reserve Notes?
Oh no, then the US Government would have to go back to issuing fiat currency directly, and the poor bankers wouldn't be able to get a massive subsidy from arbitraging the collateral posted against the monetary base with the interest payable on the notes. You're right, why did I even suggest this, of course bankers deserve as much subsidy as we can afford (and then some).

Of course rich individuals and large organisations are used to dealing with multiple currencies constantly; liquidity sloshes around via direct FX, swaps, carry trades and liquidation of positions in multi-currency markets to whichever currencies offer a transitory advantage. You make a very good point though that only the rich deserve this privilidge, lower-class Americans would only make a fool of themselves trying to comprehend more than one currency and should be forced at gunpoint to use only Federal Cartel Approved (tm) FreedomNotes (r).
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Simon_Jester »

Starglider wrote:Of course rich individuals and large organisations are used to dealing with multiple currencies constantly; liquidity sloshes around via direct FX, swaps, carry trades and liquidation of positions in multi-currency markets to whichever currencies offer a transitory advantage. You make a very good point though that only the rich deserve this privilidge, lower-class Americans would only make a fool of themselves trying to comprehend more than one currency and should be forced at gunpoint to use only Federal Cartel Approved (tm) FreedomNotes (r).
I have a lingering fondness for stability in my life savings. This may be a holdover from twentieth-century mores that should be discarded, but I do.

However, this desire for stability makes me very suspicious of what you are saying, assuming you are serious; I've lost the ability to tell whether you are or not when you talk economics these days. The reason for my suspicion is that I am not a professional currency speculator, nor do I wish to become one, nor have I ever for a moment thought I'd make a good one.

If currency speculation becomes par for the course in my country's domestic economy, I suspect that I will be harmed as a result, because I'm not good at it. This is not because I am stupid in a general-intelligence sense, it is because I have no desire to be involved in finance. I never wanted to be a stockbroker or a hedge fund manager or even to work at a bank, or to do any of the many other things associated with a financial sector.

I should think most people around the world feel much the same way- they do not want to need to become petit-financiers in order to hold on to their money on a month to month basis. Money serves them as convenient tokens of value; they produce value by doing one thing and consume it by doing many others. They are not really that interested in the financial mechanisms by which value-tokens are swapped for one another, folded, spindled, juggled, or spun around in elaborate games of three-card monte and disappeared off into dimensions unknown. They want to do other things with their life than juggle money- to make it and spend it, yes, but not to play games with it. That applies even to some very rich people who make their livings in areas other than finance.

The banking systems of the 19th and most of the 20th centuries evolved to let people do this. You could deposit your savings. The bank (or the regulatory agency, or both) went to great efforts to ensure that your money would still be there when you wanted it. Or that you could take out a loan if you needed it and were a good credit risk. There was a lot of shuffling and maneuver and investment going on behind the scenes, but as long as you simply wanted a safe place to put your money, it would be there.

As the global economy becomes more financialized, and especially if we try things like abolishing centralized national currency, I perceive that this will be in danger of going away. The average citizen will, as a matter of course, need to be on top of which currencies are doing well, and which are doing poorly. Some will succeed fairly well, others will fail and become impoverished, and the great mass of the middle will simply serve as another source of "dumb money" for the handful of professionals who are experts at extracting it a bit at a time, as an effective tax on their savings.

But this will introduce a new element of chance to the fortunes of the average person, just as expecting the upper middle-class to put their savings in the stock market did. Which I'm opposed to.

Am I missing something important?
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Starglider »

Simon_Jester wrote:Am I missing something important?
Yes; the value of the Federal Reserve Note fluctuates wildly on global FX and commodity markets; much moreso recently as central banks in general and the Federal Reserve in particular have ramped up their level of intervention. Averaged over time your savings have been consistently stolen away by inflation; the USD has lost 96.4% of its value since 1900, and the average inflation rate is now well above the almost-zero interest rate (that the Federal Reserve have pledged to artifically hold down for the foreseeable future).

In short your imagined 'stability' is an illusion resulting from nothing more than price stickiness and wishful thinking. In fact on a timescale longer than week to week this is entirely the later, given the volatility of property prices, fuel prices, car prices, consumer electronics and in fact pretty much everything that isn't government regulated. The presence of viable alternate currencies will not make you any worse off; if you stick with USD it will not be any more volatile than it already is. You would simply have the option of moving to an alternative, and of course it is quite possible that some of those alternatives will be managed for actual stability rather than maximum economic benefit to the 1%. In fact if you believe that stability is what most people value above all else, then in a free currency market the most stable currencies will win - exactly what RP was saying in fact (given his belief that gold backing enhances stability). Unless you are holding most of your wealth in a form ready to benefit from further quantitive easing and inflation, the only thing threatened by alternative currencies is your illusions. Which is of course why you react so violently to this; people defend their illusions more strongly than their actual welfare, a sad fact exploited to the hilt by politicians of all stripes.

Of course RP has no chance of winning, so this is a theoretical exercise. In any case as an evil capitalist I fully expect the USD monopoly to remain in place, and I look forward to your salary being devalued and your USD savings being drained to inflate my stock portfolio.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Simon_Jester »

Starglider wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Am I missing something important?
Yes; the value of the Federal Reserve Note fluctuates wildly on global FX and commodity markets; much moreso recently as central banks in general and the Federal Reserve in particular have ramped up their level of intervention. Averaged over time your savings have been consistently stolen away by inflation; the USD has lost 96.4% of its value since 1900, and the average inflation rate is now well above the almost-zero interest rate (that the Federal Reserve have pledged to artifically hold down for the foreseeable future).
Interest rates that balanced inflation were at least possible for much of the 20th century; I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone who's been holding onto dollars since 1900. I know quite well that if I stick money under a mattress its only value a century later will be to coin-collectors. That's half of what the banks were supposed* to be for in the first place, because putting it in a savings account was (over that era) better; and putting it in a relatively stable form of indirect investment like a certificate of deposit better still.

That worked well enough from, say, 1950 to 2000. Now that is starting to change; interest rates promised to the average person in the US have gone through the floor and will stay there for the foreseeable future, as you say, and the US government's financial organs seem to be working on the assumption that they have an indefinite license to inflate, so as to drive increases in stock prices.

When you explain currency competition as a way to counter this, and create currencies not managed for the benefit of the financial class, I can see the sense of it to some extent. Though I remain concerned, and suspect there are better ways to achieve the same goals. If we had the political will to break the dollar monopoly, we'd probably also have more than enough political will to break the institutions that make it a bad thing in the first place.

*"Supposed" in the sense of "I suppose;" that is what most people expected of them, and in much of the developed world they delivered.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Zinegata »

Adding more currencies will not make existing currencies more stable. It will only add more opaqueness to the system, and allow speculators to pull more tricks - including refusing to pay employees anything but the "company money" and trap people in a system that's virtual slavery.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by SirNitram »

Lord Zentei wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Jon Huntsman lost me the instant he jettisoned his consistancy for being sane and started babbling about the global warming myth.
Oh, for fuck's sake. I guess it was too much to expect.

Hilariously, Newt Gingrich is one GOP candidate who acknowledges global warming and has starred in bipartisan ads to promote awareness of it.

EDIT:

Still, there's his tweet from august:
I believe in evolution and trust scientists on global warming. Call me crazy.
Maybe his babbling about a "global warming myth" is just pandering to the choir in the hopes of getting more votes. Not much of an excuse, but I doubt that he'd truly change his actual opinion just like that.
You'll forgive me if I don't care what he really thinks, but on what he indicates he'd do.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Grumman »

Zaune wrote:What happens if Paul's so convinced that his plan to let market forces decide the medium of exchange is the One True Way Forward that he takes it upon himself to abolish Federal Reserve Notes?
Can the President acting alone abolish Federal Reserve Notes? If not, Paul is the last person who would seize the power necessary to make his ideas a reality.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

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I noticed Starglider dropped his bullshit point about Ron Paul's supposed "Civil Rights" credentials.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by Gigaliel »

bobalot wrote:I noticed Starglider dropped his bullshit point about Ron Paul's supposed "Civil Rights" credentials.
If we require a politician to be right on every Civil Rights issue then there are like

five

politicians in Washington who fit that definition as the others support indefinite detention/torture/massive FISA violations/endless war (right to life is a thing)/etc.

You probably agree with this but I just wanted to be sure!
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I would be more worried about Ron Paul attempting to dismantle a bunch of federal agencies/departments than the Federal Reserve nonsense as that would never ever get through congress. I'm fairly certain Bush tried to do a bit of the former but I'm not really sure whether it was political restraints or personal ones that prevented him from going as far as Ron Paul wants to.
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Re: Best Presidential Candidate [Moved]

Post by bobalot »

Gigaliel wrote:
bobalot wrote:I noticed Starglider dropped his bullshit point about Ron Paul's supposed "Civil Rights" credentials.
If we require a politician to be right on every Civil Rights issue then there are like

five

politicians in Washington who fit that definition as the others support indefinite detention/torture/massive FISA violations/endless war (right to life is a thing)/etc.

You probably agree with this but I just wanted to be sure!.
No, I think supporting Federally enforced Civil Rights for minorities is actually important.
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