Do Souls Exist?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-05 09:36pm

Durran Korr wrote:One of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard for the existence of the soul:

"Studies have shown that within a few seconds after a person's death, the mass of his/her body decreases slightly, indicating that something has "left" the body."

This one almost refutes itself.

That would be the person's bladder relaxing and releasing accumulated waste.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-05 09:37pm

In my experience, an awful lot of arguments which start with the words "studies show" turn out to be bullshit

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-03-05 09:51pm

People seem to think that because they cannot completely attribute their actions and emotions to anything tangible in front of their faces, then it must have some metaphysical property that exists 'beyond' understanding. This is why people believed in gods, first they saw a strange occurance(especcially related to emotion), then they decided that some being must be causing it to happen, then they have to attribute a personality to the deity, which is normally human. Ex: Personality of Thor, great warrior who carries a hammer and weilds it with such force as to make the mountains ring with thunder. Brings thunder lightning, but also brings rain. Thus he is the Great Brawny god of fertility. Or Big Horny Guy, thus the helmet.
Thus if these great beings are all personality and no form, then we with form and personality must be part god, it stands to reason they look just like us.
Well this is a bit of a stretch, let's just say that the Soul, like the Gods or God, is a theosophical explanation for something people didn't understand, and thus could not stop talking about with the utmost authority.
Really it is all in the neurogeometry of the brain. Perhaps Pythagoras was correct. But then I don't have any bulls to sacrifice.(He sacrificed 100 bulls when he figured out a^2+b^2=c^2)

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-05 10:37pm

Darth Wong wrote:In my experience, an awful lot of arguments which start with the words "studies show" turn out to be bullshit

It would be pointless for anyone to attempt to scientifically prove the existence of a soul or a spirit.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 10:56pm

Risking flames, I'll say that I think it is somewhat arrogant of us wee humans to think that we can prove absolutely everything through the principles of science and empirical logic. Hell, some things in science don't seem logical to me at all, yet here they are; QM and theory of relativity come to mind instantly. There's got to be something else holding it all together...Reality isn't so simple and as finite as we like to think.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-03-05 11:18pm

I cannot prove the existance of a soul, I merely have a great trouble ascribing all the thought and emotions of any creature to biochemical reactions. Of course, there's a lot of things I have a great trouble ascribing to what mankind knows so far, which is why I am not afraid to say I Don't Know.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-05 11:36pm

the problem with eternal sleep is theres no eternal dreams of sexy boys >\

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-05 11:40pm

SirNitram wrote:I cannot prove the existance of a soul, I merely have a great trouble ascribing all the thought and emotions of any creature to biochemical reactions. Of course, there's a lot of things I have a great trouble ascribing to what mankind knows so far, which is why I am not afraid to say I Don't Know.

It doesn't seem right to me, either. If our personas are nothing more than simple biochemical reactions, what makes us different from machines, or lesser animals? Nothing, then. What would be the point to even live in a world of pure biological dictation? Our higher mental functions are for waste, then. Death should be seen as the ultimate gift; blissful nothing. Eternal rest. Why go on speculating our greater existence if we are no more different than our computers, or electric toaster for that matter? Surely we shouldn't need to torture ourselves any longer! Of course we'll never feel pleasure after death, but no pain, as well! Onward to the golden age!

Aren't I a cheerful fellow?

Rants are fun.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-03-05 11:52pm

What's wrong with being a machine? Your brain is just that- a machine. A beautifully complex device, structured by millions of years of evolution. Your mind, the hunk of grey meat which contains everything that makes you you, is no more special than your liver. It does a job in your body- the job of processing, evaluating, and storing information. It is a brilliant and fascinating device, one which modern science has yet to fully understand. Every thought that forms in your mind, every memory you recall, is the product of a delicate dance of neurotransmitting chemicals and electrical impulses, far more complex than anything modern science has yet to create.

The elegant reality of the human brain is much more amazing than some magical, ephemeral "soul."

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-06 12:12am

Thirdfain wrote:The elegant reality of the human brain is much more amazing than some magical, ephemeral "soul."

Not really. Though I usually like to think of how the world forming through billions of years is much more elegant than "God made it in six days."

I'm well aware that body is kind of machines-within-a-machine, I just rather have a better term than "machine," since that brings to mind gears and electric toasters. I see the brain as just another organ, too...I should clear up that I don't believe the idea of a human's soul/spirit necessarily should be confused or replaced with the functions of your brain. I like to think of the brain as more of a sensory-comprehension/memory-recollection device. This particular organ is an incredible thing, indeed, but I just don't think it's everything about you.

After all, I watched a story on TV about a young girl who had half her brain removed (the side which is attributed to arts/music) and one of her favorite hobbys is music and dancing. She has trouble talking sometimes and has the occasional seizure, but aside from that she's not too different from normal children.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-06 01:18am

what i have an issue with is my "wholeness". if you seperate your brain into two operational halves distinctly seperate from one another but fully functional, where do _I_ end up, if both halves have fully sentient and aware personalities? what do i experience when this happens?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-06 01:21am

I don't think that would happen...I think it depends on which part stays in the body proper.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-06 01:27am

both parts do. its just the corpus collosum thats severed, so neither half can communicate with the other

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-06 01:31am

Well, considering that some epileptics have had this done to them without such strange ill-effects, I would assume it doesn't matter much. They do have some problems, however, such as only being able to understand words through one eye because the interaction between the halves is severed...But other than things like that I don't think there are any "higher" disorders.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-06 01:32am

actually now that i think about it, the CC may only be the part that bridges the higher brain function regions, so memory and personality remains intact, but right-left functions cannot cross over, so you cant, say, paint with your right hands or do math with your left. or something like that.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-03-06 02:14am

well, the whole dalai llama thing ties into my idea that the 'soul' is really your core OS, and as much zip-compressed archival memory as can be transmitted from a dying body to a new one before the final system crash... it is really the only logical explanation for telepathy. basically, when your brain comes to the conclusion that death is imminent, it opens up a xmitter port, pings for the nearest 'blank' (ie embryo) with both an open port and a compatible BIOS & hardware, and upon finding one, does a massive upload across ultrawideband of as much data as it can. once the upload is done, the receiving embryo brain promptly shuts down the open port to prevent any other transmissions from corrupting the nascent software install (though it isnt always successful).

thats my take on the whole 'soul' issue. So long as I dont die so quickly that my brain has no time to ping & upload, I have total confidence that at least some part of me will continue.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-06 02:17am

Grr...I'm sick of people talking as though we were computers!

Nahh...I kid you.

Grog · Post by **Grog** » 2003-03-06 05:10am

UltraViolence83 wrote:I personally don't see the point of living if there is only unconscious nothing after death. If that is the case, everyone should be killing themselves in record numbers to reach this comforting, blissful blankness. I know I would. (I'm not suicidal, and my life isn't too bad, but still...eternal sleep. Sounds fun. )

what? do you not enyoj life? I mean I think if you only have one chanse of living then you should have fun in it not loning for death, if you have a soul on the other hand then you can welcome death but then life wouldn't be that special because you can do it again. altough I dont know if there is a soul or not but nothing indicates this so I try to enyoj life as much as possible if it is my last chanse.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-03-06 06:49am

kojikun wrote:both parts do. its just the corpus collosum thats severed, so neither half can communicate with the other

You would still be you, there are people alive today with that such operation done to them. It merely means that if you cover one eye and look at an object you will either know what it is but can't say what it is or be able to say what it is but not know what the object really is.

One side of the brain contains memory and the other helps analyse what the object is, if you cut both sections off from communication and make it so only one section can see the object, that happens.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-03-06 07:21am

When Christopher Reeve (sp?) (Superman) fell off his horse and was taken in to hospital for operation. During the surgery his heart stopped, and during an interview afterwards he said he was floating outside his own body.

It is these near death experiences that makes me believe every human being, perhaps every creature do have a soul.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-06 07:45am

UltraViolence83 wrote:Risking flames, I'll say that I think it is somewhat arrogant of us wee humans to think that we can prove absolutely everything through the principles of science and empirical logic.

It is even more arrogant of us wee humans to think that we can know something is true through the power of intuition.

Hell, some things in science don't seem logical to me at all, yet here they are; QM and theory of relativity come to mind instantly.

They are logical; the fact that you don't personally understand them does not change that fact.

There's got to be something else holding it all together...Reality isn't so simple and as finite as we like to think.

Prove it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-06 07:49am

Dark Primus wrote:When Christopher Reeve (sp?) (Superman) fell off his horse and was taken in to hospital for operation. During the surgery his heart stopped, and during an interview afterwards he said he was floating outside his own body.

It is these near death experiences that makes me believe every human being, perhaps every creature do have a soul.

Ummm, you do realize there are methods of explaining this which do not require the existence of an ephemeral term that defies everything we know about behaviour, memory, and the human brain, don't you?

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-03-06 08:11am

Or as oxygen stopped going into his brain his sensory functions made a quick auto shut down to conserve resources, and he was left not being able to see or feel anything. While in this state he was alone and wandering through his own mind unable to perceive what was going on. So he constructed a dream for himself to keep his sanity. A neat little trich that happens when all of your neurons start firing.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-03-06 08:14am

Sea Skimmer wrote:I don't know, I think it's an abstract concept that exists if you believe it does.

I liked this bit, Sea Skimmer.

There are no logical reasons to believe a soul exists, and the reason so many do believe them to exist might well be rooted in the reluctance to face the concept of utter annihilation of our being, which is exactly what happens when we die and our mind ceases to be. It is more comforting to think that death is not actually the final end it is, though that belief is irrational. I'm just as guilty of it in certain respects as the most rabid fundamentalists, I'm not very well equipped to deal with the concept. It's terrifying.

It's just that I've found a way out: I have no reason to believe in the existence of a soul, mine or anybody else's, but the way I perceive it is that death is not the ultimate end, yet. As long as there is someone to remember me, someone who recalls who I am, or was and what I did, I will not have utterly ceased to exist. It's when those people who remember me die that I'll finally be gone for good. Of course, I would hope that the memories I leave with people who will be there to remember me when I'm gone will mostly be good ones, that for the time that I am remembered, I would be remembered as a good person, someone who brought something positive and enriching into people's lives instead of sucking them dry of joy and happiness.

If we want to throw logic to the wind for a moment and start speculating on an afterlife based on the memories we leave with people, I guess bad karma would come back to seriously bite you in the ass because your afterlife would be determined by how you're remembered. Wouldn't want to be Stalin or Hitler or someone like that in that scenario (or in any scenario, for that matter).

Now did any of this make any sense, or am I just rambling?

Edi

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-03-06 08:23am

"The Soul".... isn't that just a pseudo-intellectual euphemism for human consciousness?