Q vs. Han Solo and Chewbacca

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 03:33am

Darth Wong wrote:Then why did Q want Janeway's DNA? What use would DNA be to a being who has no physical substance? That incident alone indicated to me that Q is an organic being who uses a lot of tricks.

He could have used the DNA or equivalent of any being in the cosmos. Physical forms mean nothing to him. He turned Crusher into a dog without her noticing it. Besides, he didn't just want Janeway's DNA (which he could have taken w/o her knowledge or permission), he wanted her to actually be a mother for his child. Which proves he's crazy, but not that he's organic. As to his half of the chromosomes, well, what about Anakin Skywalker? Does the Force have DNA? If the Force can fudge the conception of a child, then so can Q.

Rhoades · Post by **Rhoades** » 2003-03-05 09:24am

Eframepilot wrote:He could have used the DNA or equivalent of any being in the cosmos. Physical forms mean nothing to him. He turned Crusher into a dog without her noticing it. Besides, he didn't just want Janeway's DNA (which he could have taken w/o her knowledge or permission), he wanted her to actually be a mother for his child. Which proves he's crazy, but not that he's organic. As to his half of the chromosomes, well, what about Anakin Skywalker? Does the Force have DNA? If the Force can fudge the conception of a child, then so can Q.

Well, the difference between the Force and Q is that Q's sentient. With the Force, Anakin's birth was a result of the midicholrin's(sp?) DNA mixed with Shmi's, which are organic IIRC. Personally, I heard this one theory that Shmi could had simply been lying when she made up the self-conception story, and didn't want to reveal who the father for some reason. But, that's just a theory, and doesn't debunk the canon explaination.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-03-05 10:32am

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Amanda Rogers is the proof that the Q do not use technology. She was born from two Q and she herself was Q and had Q powers.
Or the ancient technology which the Q employ identified her as a valid user of its capabilities. Look at Apollo in TOS: he gave every appearance of being a true God but it turned out he could be killed by blowing up his temple. He may not have even understood how the thing worked. And if he had a child with the woman he was interested in, would the child have been able to use the temple's power? Maybe. It wouldn't disprove the notion that the power might not be intrinsic. Indeed, it's much easier to explain if it's not intrinsic, since then we wouldn't have to worry about figuring out how he can do these things; there's just some unseen technology somewhere handling all the dirty work.

A bit like Dark City.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-05 10:46am

Darth Wong wrote: Look at Apollo in TOS: he gave every appearance of being a true God but it turned out he could be killed by blowing up his temple.

[nitpick]
Destroying Apollo's temple didn't kill him, but it took away a great deal of his power. The realization that mortals "no longer needed him" prompted him to commit suicide, apparently, in the same fashion as the other gods had.
[/nitpick]

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-05 10:50am

Just a little follow up on Apollo...

StarTrek.com wrote: Spock determines that the god's powers come from his temple. When Kirk tells Lt. Palamas to reject Apollo, which she reluctantly does, the captain uses the U.S.S. Enterprise's weapons to destroy Apollo's temple. Apollo, rejected by a mortal woman and bereft of his powers, spreads himself upon the winds to join his fellow gods.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-03-05 01:32pm

Eframepilot wrote:He could have used the DNA or equivalent of any being in the cosmos.

Q has been fascinated with humanity since the beginning of TNG. He WANTED some human trait in his offspring. He NEEDED a physical molecule to accomplish it. That means he himself is physical.

He turned Crusher into a dog without her noticing it.

How do you know this wasn't more "smoke and mirrors" (tm)?

As to his half of the chromosomes, well, what about Anakin Skywalker? Does the Force have DNA? If the Force can fudge the conception of a child, then so can Q.

The midichlorians are described as microscopic life forms. No reason to assume that they conjured DNA out of thin air. Therefore, no reason to assume that Q can either.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-03-05 03:04pm

*slices up this with Occam's Razor*

Since supernatural powers are not even acknowledged in ST, you need some damn heavy evidence to prove the unknown. The known is that the Q have technology, use technology, and can be affected by technology.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-03-05 03:51pm

What does it matter what the source of Q's powers is?

If he uses technology to carry out action A or "magic" to carry it out doesn't matter, what matters is what A is.

For example if he is unkillable (and I'm not saying he is) then how isn't relevant only the fact that he is.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 05:06pm

SirNitram wrote:*slices up this with Occam's Razor*

Since supernatural powers are not even acknowledged in ST, you need some damn heavy evidence to prove the unknown. The known is that the Q have technology, use technology, and can be affected by technology.

What do you mean, supernatural powers aren't acknowledged? What about Deanna Troi and th Betazoids? The Vulcan mind meld? Kevin Uxbridge? The Organians? Even Trelane was clearly not a true humanoid; he merely used machinery to assist his inherent powers. His parents certainly weren't humanoid. Are all "superbeings" on Trek just humanoids using super-technology, or is it just the Q who are fakes? While the Q do use weapons of a sort, there is no reason to believe ALL of their powers are technology-based.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 05:16pm

Darth Servo wrote:Q has been fascinated with humanity since the beginning of TNG. He WANTED some human trait in his offspring. He NEEDED a physical molecule to accomplish it. That means he himself is physical.

No, it means he's capable of creating a being based on a human template that also has has powers. Q is pretty near all-powerful; if he has to create an entire human genetic makeup for himself to give to a child from scratch, he can do it. Hell, when he lost his powers and became human he was terrified by the concept of sleep. That should prove that his natural form isn't humanoid or "physical".

The midichlorians are described as microscopic life forms. No reason to assume that they conjured DNA out of thin air. Therefore, no reason to assume that Q can either.

The midichlorians are in all life in the SW galaxy. It is silly to assume that their DNA is compatible enough with a human's to produce a child. How would they fertilize an egg? Even if they just messed with Shmi's DNA, they would need at least a Y chromosome.

And as for conjuring DNA out of thin air, he's Q! That should be easy! Amanda Rogers casually removed the pollution from an entire atmosphere. Making up some pretend human DNA to mate with a human should be child's play for Q. It takes far less handwaving to explain a Q fathering a child with a human than all of the other supposed human/alien crossbreeds in science fiction.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-03-05 05:24pm

Eframepilot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:What do you mean, supernatural powers aren't acknowledged? What about Deanna Troi and th Betazoids? The Vulcan mind meld? Kevin Uxbridge? The Organians? Even Trelane was clearly not a true humanoid; he merely used machinery to assist his inherent powers. His parents certainly weren't humanoid. Are all "superbeings" on Trek just humanoids using super-technology, or is it just the Q who are fakes? While the Q do use weapons of a sort, there is no reason to believe ALL of their powers are technology-based.

The reasonable assumption is that all these beings used some kind of technology to achieve their "special powers". They aren't superheroes. If you want to claim they are demi-gods, YOU need to provide some kind of evidence.

I'm not sure if telepathy (Betazoids and Vulcans) would count as a "god-like characteristic. It is extremely limited, and seems to be just another 'sense' that these beings have, in addition to our own five physical senses. Is it even theoretically possible at all to read thoughts in real life? It seems like a far fetched question, I know. But should our understanding of the human brain reach near completeness, would it be possible to interpret another person's neural electro-chemical signals?

The Organians never demonstrated any abilities away from their home planet. They TEMPORARILY stopped the Fed-Klingon war ONCE.

The Fact that Trelane used machinery PROVES that he and his race are no demi-gods. After it was destroyed, he scolds Kirk asking him something along the lines of, "did you really think that machine was my only source of power?" Clearly, there is no reason to believe that he didn't have another machine and therefore, NOT a god-like being.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-03-05 05:34pm

Eframepilot wrote:No, it means he's capable of creating a being based on a human template that also has has powers. Q is pretty near all-powerful; if he has to create an entire human genetic makeup for himself to give to a child from scratch, he can do it.

Nice circular logic there. "We know Q can do nearly anything because he can do nearly anything"

Hell, when he lost his powers and became human he was terrified by the concept of sleep. That should prove that his natural form isn't humanoid or "physical".

Not all animals in real life sleep. Thats NOT evedence that Q isn't a physical being.

Q was afraid from LOSING CONSCIOUSNESS. He was afraid because he'd never experienced it before.

The midichlorians are in all life in the SW galaxy. It is silly to assume that their DNA is compatible enough with a human's to produce a child. How would they fertilize an egg? Even if they just messed with Shmi's DNA, they would need at least a Y chromosome.

And we have no information on where they got the 'Y' so you assume they conjured it up out of thin air?

The second set of the other 22 chromosomes could easily be accounted for through non-disjunction (during cell division, the chromosomes for some reason all go to only one of the two daughter cells). Its been observed in real life.

And as for conjuring DNA out of thin air, he's Q! That should be easy!

More circular logic.

Amanda Rogers casually removed the pollution from an entire atmosphere.

And we have no idea how so we assume it was a miracle?

Making up some pretend human DNA to mate with a human should be child's play for Q. It takes far less handwaving to explain a Q fathering a child with a human than all of the other supposed human/alien crossbreeds in science fiction.

Why? I see it as just as ridiculous. Not more so.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-03-05 05:45pm

And as for conjuring DNA out of thin air, he's Q! That should be easy!

So why didn't he do it? Answer: He couldn't. Ergo, he's not as powerful as you think.

The very first appearance of Q made it quite clear that humanity had the potential to become even MORE powerful than the Q. Unless Q was referring to some magical superpower that mankind would develop, it simply shows that sufficiently advanced technology can be a threat to the Q.

This is backed up by the fact that, for some reason, Q had apprehensions about the Borg: "Don't provoke the Borg!"

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 05:57pm

[quote="Darth Servo]The reasonable assumption is that all these beings used some kind of technology to achieve their "special powers". They aren't superheroes. If you want to claim they are demi-gods, YOU need to provide some kind of evidence.[/quote]
Gary Mitchell. There's a clear example of super-duper powers. In the beginning he's an ordinary guy. By the end of the episode he was creating oases in the desert from nothing. If Gary Mitchell has superpowers, then their existence is proven in the Trek universe and we can accept the simplest explanation for the superbeings: they are actually superbeings with inherent powers.

As for providing direct evidence that each being is using their own powers and is not a faker, how can I? ANY display of power can be rationalized with a convoluted enough theory. Ultimately it's a suspension of disbelief issue. Are you willing to accept these beings as they are portrayed?

We could postulate that, say, the Force is the product of a super-race's ancient computer in hyperspace that scans the galaxy for brains receptive to it and broadcasts information about the near future to them along with simulating telekinesis and telepathy. Is that more reasonable than believing Jedi have "special powers"?

I'm not sure if telepathy (Betazoids and Vulcans) would count as a "god-like characteristic. It is extremely limited, and seems to be just another 'sense' that these beings have, in addition to our own five physical senses. Is it even theoretically possible at all to read thoughts in real life? It seems like a far fetched question, I know. But should our understanding of the human brain reach near completeness, would it be possible to interpret another person's neural electro-chemical signals?

There is currently no theory on how thoughts could be transmitted between two human brains. Any EM waves could be detected; all other known forces are too short-ranged or too weak. The best pseudoscientific explanation is that the human brain operates on the quantum level blah blah entanglement blah blah "spooky action at a distance" etc. It might, some day, be possible to totally understand the human brain and thus "decode" brain waves, but it would probably take millions of hypersensitive electrodes embedded in the brain and a computer equal to the brain's computing power.

The Organians never demonstrated any abilities away from their home planet. They TEMPORARILY stopped the Fed-Klingon war ONCE.

They disabled every Federation and Klingon ship everywhere by causing all weapons and controls to feel super-hot. Stopping just the ships around Organia would NOT have stopped the war. Just because they never did it again doesn't invalidate the feat.

The Fact that Trelane used machinery PROVES that he and his race are no demi-gods. After it was destroyed, he scolds Kirk asking him something along the lines of, "did you really think that machine was my only source of power?" Clearly, there is no reason to believe that he didn't have another machine and therefore, NOT a god-like being.

Or we could take the more obvious interpretation of his statement, "did you really think I was totally powerless without machines to aid me?"

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-03-05 06:12pm

Further support of the idea that the abilities of the Q are based in good part on technology would be Riker as a Q. If the abilities of the Q were an innate quality of the Q, requiring some "advanced evolution" into higher beings composed of assorted sparkly bits, how did Q manage to give Riker the abilities of a Q?

The simplest explanation would be that the Q rely on their technology to do things for them. That ties in nicely with the big glowing sphere/mat conveyance that Q appear to have, as well as with the fact that all Q shown to use their special abilities do so with the aid of a personalized gesture. It might be pesonalized for cultural reasons, but a likely conclusion is that the reason for the gesture is to prevent accidental and potentially embarassing activation of the advanced technology the Q use. Generic Q technology devices do not require that signature gesture, and do not appear to need authorization codes, as the crew of the Voyager was easily armed with such Q weapons.

Many of the ordinary Q tricks can be duplicated by technologies available to the Federation, and in one notable case a con artist in a TNG episode -- I managed to forget the episode title -- impersonated an alien devil to scam a gullible world out of its money. Seismic disturbances were produced, people were transposed and transformed, and other trickery typical of Q abounded, with the punchline being an eyeblink control system and a small starship with a good transporter system and an old cloaking device.

Now consider what an advanced AI controlling an equally advanced and powerful starship could do. Not only entire persons but also pocket universes and, in one case, short-lived simulations of large part of the known universe, can be hidden away in subspace, in tertiary subspace manifolds and in static warp bubbles (again based on that old standby, subspace).

So, here's a scenario:
A species of technologically advanced humanoids produces a subspace paradise. Through appropriate manipulation of the systems controlling it, the physical characteristics of that little pocket universe can be modified. Each of the humanoids is genetrically registered with the controlling AI network as an authorized user. Since the humanoids live in what amounts to an incredibly huge holodeck, they can pretty much do whatever they want. Away from home, a deeply hidden dedicated subspace feed provides the humanoid with limited special abilities. For serious use when away from home, gallivanting about the universe, each of the humanoids is granted a vehicle equipped as a starship version of the home area in subspace. Highly advanced transporter systems, holodecks and themed static warp bubbles allow impressive tricks.

That scenario should be every bit as valid as the typical alternative of taht same species of humanoids somehow evolving into superpowerful energy beings with the emotional maturity of rabid puppies.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 06:18pm

Darth Servo wrote:Nice circular logic there. "We know Q can do nearly anything because he can do nearly anything"

It's not any more circular than yours. You assume that superpowers are impossible as a postulate and then rationalize all evidence to the contrary, no matter how contrived the explanation. As ANY feat could be done by advanced enough technology, your position is unfalsifiable.

And we have no information on where they got the 'Y' so you assume they conjured it up out of thin air?

The second set of the other 22 chromosomes could easily be accounted for through non-disjunction (during cell division, the chromosomes for some reason all go to only one of the two daughter cells). Its been observed in real life.

This still leaves us with the missing Y. The midichlorians either made it from scratch or stole it from someone else. Either of which would be easy for a non-corporeal Q. Wanting to mate with Janeway does not prove Q is physical.

Amanda Rogers casually removed the pollution from an entire atmosphere.
And we have no idea how so we assume it was a miracle?

No, we assume Amanda Rogers did it with her powers as a direct, sensible interpretation of the episode tells us.

Making up some pretend human DNA to mate with a human should be child's play for Q. It takes far less handwaving to explain a Q fathering a child with a human than all of the other supposed human/alien crossbreeds in science fiction.
Why? I see it as just as ridiculous. Not more so.

If you have a godlike being then you don't have to do handwaving to explain alien crossbreeding, the godlike being does the handwaving for you. The existence of godlike beings is pretty well confirmed in Trek, what with Gary Mitchell, the Traveler, the Founders, and the more powerful Organians etc.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 06:26pm

SPOOFE wrote:
And as for conjuring DNA out of thin air, he's Q! That should be easy!
So why didn't he do it? Answer: He couldn't. Ergo, he's not as powerful as you think.

Watch the damn episode. He never did it because he never was accepted by Janeway and didn't want to force himself on her. There is no reason to believe he couldn't have done it.

The very first appearance of Q made it quite clear that humanity had the potential to become even MORE powerful than the Q. Unless Q was referring to some magical superpower that mankind would develop, it simply shows that sufficiently advanced technology can be a threat to the Q.

Actually it was Q's second appearance, "Hide and Q", where this comes up. And Q was very likely referring to "some magical superpower".

Exhibit 1: Gary Mitchell. Exposure to energy in the galactic barrier causes his latent psychic powers to increase geometrically.

Exhibit 2: Wesley Crusher. Learns to "phase" with the Traveler in "Remember Me", then steps completely out of time in "Journey's End".

This is backed up by the fact that, for some reason, Q had apprehensions about the Borg: "Don't provoke the Borg!"

Apprehensions completely missing in "Q Who?" It's much more likely that Q just didn't want the Borg running roughshod over the Delta Quadrant because of his son's pranks.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-03-05 09:12pm

Eframepilot wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:Nice circular logic there. "We know Q can do nearly anything because he can do nearly anything"
It's not any more circular than yours. You assume that superpowers are impossible as a postulate and then rationalize all evidence to the contrary, no matter how contrived the explanation. As ANY feat could be done by advanced enough technology, your position is unfalsifiable.

The fact is that you can't explain how superpowers work, whereas you can explain how technology works. Therefore, Occam's Razor states that technology is the better explanation, since it can explain the problem.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 09:55pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:Nice circular logic there. "We know Q can do nearly anything because he can do nearly anything"
It's not any more circular than yours. You assume that superpowers are impossible as a postulate and then rationalize all evidence to the contrary, no matter how contrived the explanation. As ANY feat could be done by advanced enough technology, your position is unfalsifiable.
The fact is that you can't explain how superpowers work, whereas you can explain how technology works. Therefore, Occam's Razor states that technology is the better explanation, since it can explain the problem.

There is no reason why the mysterious superpowers should be any more inexplainable than the mysterious supertechnology. Both obey the laws of physics; both can in theory be described. Of course WE have no idea where to start making sense of either; even most Trek tech appears to grossly violate the laws of physics as we understand them. We know that mysterious superpowers exist (Mitchell, Wesley) and the Q claim to possess these powers inherently; why assume they are lying and making use of some unseen, unmentioned, monstrously advanced system of supertechnology that does everything they do anyway? It's the "Q is really a humanoid conman using supertechnology" explanation that goes against the Law of Parsimony by being needlessly complex.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-03-05 11:06pm

Oh joy! Someone who doesn't understand how Occam's Razor is used! Thank you, Eframepilot, I was forgetting what it looked like when someone did that..

Instead of your mindless tirade, why don't you start listing things Q did, and I'll explain them with refined ST tech.

Q appearing at will: Refined Transporter.
Q moving the Enterprise: Refined, large scale transporter.
Q tricking Picard in All The Good Things: Holosuite.

Those are the ones coming to mind, feel free to name a few where he does something notable...

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-06 12:07am

SirNitram wrote:Oh joy! Someone who doesn't understand how Occam's Razor is used! Thank you, Eframepilot, I was forgetting what it looked like when someone did that..

Instead of your mindless tirade, why don't you start listing things Q did, and I'll explain them with refined ST tech.

Q appearing at will: Refined Transporter.
Q moving the Enterprise: Refined, large scale transporter.
Q tricking Picard in All The Good Things: Holosuite.

Those are the ones coming to mind, feel free to name a few where he does something notable...

(sigh) Anything I mention you will dismiss as either duplicable by Trek tech or a total illusion. If it jumps through space and time like an omnipotent duck, casually cleans planets' atmospheres like an omnipotent duck, blows up stars with crossfire from its weapons like an omnipotent duck and freaking shrinks Voyager to subatomic size like an omnipotent duck, then it probably IS an omnipotent duck. Do you have any reason to prefer the theory of "Q is a con man who tries to convince Trek crews he is a superbeing, and a remarkably inept one at that, for no good reason at all" over the simpler theory that Q really IS doing these feats himself? Why SHOULDN'T we take Q at face value? We have evidence that humans can gain similar powers (Gary Mitchell, Wesley, Charlie X) by themselves, we have countless other superbeings and energy beings - why is Q so much more implausible than the Organians or the Thasians or the Gorgan or the Companion or the Prophets (ooh, nonlinear time! must be fake) or Kevin Uxbridge? Are they ALL hoaxers? WHY? And why should we suspect this?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-06 08:37am

Eframepilot wrote:(sigh) Anything I mention you will dismiss as either duplicable by Trek tech or a total illusion. If it jumps through space and time like an omnipotent duck, casually cleans planets' atmospheres like an omnipotent duck, blows up stars with crossfire from its weapons like an omnipotent duck and freaking shrinks Voyager to subatomic size like an omnipotent duck, then it probably IS an omnipotent duck.

All of these things have been done through technology in ST. Your leaps in logic are pathetic, as usual.

Do you have any reason to prefer the theory of "Q is a con man who tries to convince Trek crews he is a superbeing, and a remarkably inept one at that, for no good reason at all" over the simpler theory that Q really IS doing these feats himself?

Because they're afraid of humans. Q said it himself, dumb-ass. They believe humans will eventually surpass them. Rather odd for fucking OMNIPOTENCE, isn't it? How can you surpass omnipotence, which cannot possibly be surpassed by goddamned definition?

Why SHOULDN'T we take Q at face value?

Face value for someone with a brain, or face value for someone who thinks like a retard?

We have evidence that humans can gain similar powers (Gary Mitchell, Wesley, Charlie X) by themselves, we have countless other superbeings and energy beings - why is Q so much more implausible than the Organians or the Thasians or the Gorgan or the Companion or the Prophets (ooh, nonlinear time! must be fake) or Kevin Uxbridge? Are they ALL hoaxers? WHY? And why should we suspect this?

Who said anything about a hoax? Since when did any of these clowns claim to be completely omnipotent? They have abilities, some defined and some not. Some of them may or may not be dependent upon technology which we can't see (the Prophets' Orbs, for example, may be some kind of advanced technology, and Apollo's power clearly came from his temple).

Explain why OMNIPOTENCE is required rather than extremely powerful technology in order to explain ANY of this. All you do is repeat your idiotic leaps in logic.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-06 10:29am

Darth Wong wrote:Because they're afraid of humans. Q said it himself, dumb-ass. They believe humans will eventually surpass them. Rather odd for fucking OMNIPOTENCE, isn't it? How can you surpass omnipotence, which cannot possibly be surpassed by goddamned definition?

The Q are not truly omnipotent. Quinn explicitly said as much. The Q are just Really Fucking Powerful, and they were afraid humans could become Even More Really Fucking Powerful. Like Gary Mitchell.

Who said anything about a hoax? Since when did any of these clowns claim to be completely omnipotent? They have abilities, some defined and some not. Some of them may or may not be dependent upon technology which we can't see (the Prophets' Orbs, for example, may be some kind of advanced technology, and Apollo's power clearly came from his temple).

Explain why OMNIPOTENCE is required rather than extremely powerful technology in order to explain ANY of this. All you do is repeat your idiotic leaps in logic.

NONE of the beings in Trek are truly omnipotent. Your insistence upon the word is a red herring. Extraordinary powers similar to Q's have been demonstrated by beings who clearly did NOT have access to technology (Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, Wesley Crusher). Also, I am not arguing that the Q do not use ANY technology; clearly, they have weapons of some sort. Do YOU have any reason to believe that the Q are just "ordinary" humanoids who fake ALL of their powers with technology? (Note: Apollo and the Prophets may use technology (temple, Orbs) to supplement their powers, but they clearly were not ordinary humanoids. Unless it's possible for a normal person to scatter themself into oblivion against the wind or possess other humanoids and give them glowing eyes and superpowers.)

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-03-06 11:01am

Eframepilot wrote:The Q are not truly omnipotent. Quinn explicitly said as much. The Q are just Really Fucking Powerful, and they were afraid humans could become Even More Really Fucking Powerful. Like Gary Mitchell.

Concession accepted.

NONE of the beings in Trek are truly omnipotent. Your insistence upon the word is a red herring. Extraordinary powers similar to Q's have been demonstrated by beings who clearly did NOT have access to technology (Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, Wesley Crusher).

Name ONE example of Wesley having extraordinary abilities when the Traveler was not around.

Also, I am not arguing that the Q do not use ANY technology; clearly, they have weapons of some sort. Do YOU have any reason to believe that the Q are just "ordinary" humanoids who fake ALL of their powers with technology? (Note: Apollo and the Prophets may use technology (temple, Orbs) to supplement their powers, but they clearly were not ordinary humanoids. Unless it's possible for a normal person to scatter themself into oblivion against the wind or possess other humanoids and give them glowing eyes and superpowers.)

Look at the difference. You assume that these "superpowers" cannot be duplicated with Treknology. Name ONE example that couldn't.

EX: scatter himself into oblivion....TRANSPORTER. Apollo's temple was the PRIMARY source of his power and without it he was pretty helpless. But he could easily have had a secondary backup. granted it didn't allow him to preform nearly as many magic tricks.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-06 11:28am

Darth Servo wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:The Q are not truly omnipotent. Quinn explicitly said as much. The Q are just Really Fucking Powerful, and they were afraid humans could become Even More Really Fucking Powerful. Like Gary Mitchell.
Concession accepted.

Yeah, I accept your concession that the Q do have inherent powers. I never argued they were omnipotent in the theological sense (though I could have better phrased "omnipotent duck" as "might-as-well-be-omnipotent-for-all-we-could-care duck).

NONE of the beings in Trek are truly omnipotent. Your insistence upon the word is a red herring. Extraordinary powers similar to Q's have been demonstrated by beings who clearly did NOT have access to technology (Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, Wesley Crusher).
Name ONE example of Wesley having extraordinary abilities when the Traveler was not around.

So you have nothing to refute Mitchell and Charlie X. Concession accepted.

Look at the difference. You assume that these "superpowers" cannot be duplicated with Treknology. Name ONE example that couldn't.

NOTHING cannot be duplicated with Treknology. Treknology, at least with the license you are giving it in this thread, is OMNIPOTENT. And if anything it does is really impossible, well, it's an ILLUSION! Whoopty-doo! But Gary Mitchell and Charlie X prove that beings with unusual powers DO exist since they had no access, direct or indirect, to hidden technology. So, WHY should we assume any being with unusual powers is faking them and not actually possessing them?