IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

[Xess]

Frankly, I can't think of a reason why unobtainium would make the difference between survival and death for a heavily overpopulated humanity. How did we feed all those people before there was unobtainium? How did we feed them while building giant starships to go mine it? What, exactly, does the unobtainium do that is so damn critical to the basic minimal ability to feed people? You'd think this would be fairly important to the plot of the movie, if they were really trying to make it look the way you say it looks.

From what I recall of reading the out-of-film material stuff, which was basically written as RDAs Guide to Avatarverse, the unobtanium is used primarily for super-fast trans-continental mag-lev trains to allow anyone to commute anywhere to work, to power anti-matter reactors, computer hyper-chips and for star ships. That stuff said that without unobtanium the economy would collapse as people couldn't commute to work and there would be an energy crisis as the anti-matter reactors wouldn't run.

The closest we get to seeing anything like that in the film itself is in the extended edition where we see mag-lev trains moving overhead and of course the star ship.

Personally I don't think the writers of that piece knew how much energy you actually need to manufacture anti-matter, since if you can manufacture anti-matter to run reactors to power society you can produce enough energy to skip the middle anti-matter step.

[Cesario]

So you came into a moral debate, brought up a figure who's okay with casually genociding an entire planet because it offends his view, and don't realize that wasn't the best choice for an alien that we should feel compassion for? And I'm the troll for pointing out the fact that you made a stupid call. Got it.

"Marvin the Martian" was a generic stand-in, used in a throwaway illustration of concept, mostly because it rhymes. Only you seem to want to get down to details of Looney Tunes plots, rather than address the question it was meant to illustrate.

You're missing the forest for the trees. Which seems to be a habit for you- rather than look at arguments of substance, you look at the details. This is the mark of someone who seeks to waste other people's time.

You don't have arguments of substance.

I'm positing that the moral correctness of doing bad things to another being is related to that being's own adherence to moral standards. It is more wrong to kill Gandhi than it is to kill Hitler. The Na'vi aren't pure blameless noble savages here, and their behavior is likely to cost twenty billion people their lives soely because those 20 billion people care more about not repeating the mistakes of their past than they do about being able to feed their children.

It's the same concept that supposedly makes it okay for the Na'vi to murder RDA miners. I just have a broader view on who's comitting what immoral acts.

...That makes no sense at all. The point of the damn exercise is that unobtanium is so valuable it makes economic sense to fly it back from Alpha goddamn Centauri in starships. Even a few hundred kilos a day of the stuff will be worth any financial price you could possibly have to pay to get it.

And if you're willing to spend blood as well as money to get it- well, basically the only limit on how many people you'd be willing to kill to get it is your own ruthlessness and bloodthirstiness. Someone like Stalin would probably be willing to kill a million people to keep an unobtanium mine going, given how valuable that material is- and it would be worth it, if you look at lives as being interchangeable with money.

So unobtainium forces us to answer the question: are there things it is never right to do? Or are there only things it is only wrong to do until someone dangles a big enough carrot in front of your nose? That's the real moral question at the heart of the movie, which you are trying desperately to obscure. Is RDA right to be willing to kill and dispossess and destroy what they don't understand, in exchange for a near-infinite amount of money? Because if any amount of money can make it acceptable to do that, then unobtanium is probably worth that amount of money.

Which again leads back to the question of why not just nuke the damn planet from orbit and make the process even cheaper? Why is the villain not doing this when he has the power to do so, would make more money more easily that way, and would experience a lower cost in lives and in bringing along useless military equipment and personel who can't help extract the precious substance from the ground? We're positing that the RDA is pure evil, so why not do precisely this?

There are degrees of evil- the RDA is not Stalin, and unlike Stalin they are presumably accountable to legal authorities back home. "We" are not positing that the RDA is pure evil; "I" am positing that they are like mining companies throughout history only IN SPACE, while "you" are positing a wall of whatever nonsense lets you carry on the debate.

Trouble is, the RDA are being so much more respectful and softhanded than mining companies throughout history. And when they're at an even greater advantage over the natives.

If no amount of money can make it acceptable, if you would need actual lives to be directly at stake, then no, the unobtanium is not worth it, whatever you may say.

Except there are lives at stake. 20 billion of them.

"Whatever you may say," I said.

You say there are lives at stake. 20 billion of them. I say there aren't. Now where are we?

Obviously one of us is right (me) and one of us is wrong (you). Was this not obvious?

Where's your positive evidence for this, and where's the explanation that deals with the mountain of negative evidence, things would expect to see, but don't see, if unobtainium is really all that's keeping mankind from going extinct? Like, say, government oversight of RDA's operations? Or for that matter an actual government-run mine to keep a single corporation from owning a total monopoly on a mineral humanity needs to stay alive?

We see government oversight of RDA operations.

But you're right. As we all know, that governments never give corperations monopolies over vital infrastructure.

It's interesting that you say "we-" that you identify with RDA that much, or failing that regard them as the point men of the collective human endeavour... rather than as Space Rio Tinto. You seem to have very little basis for this, except random inferences you pull practically out of thin air.

Space travel in Avatar isn't casual enough that they can do this without the support and assistance of the rest of the human race. The RDA's hands being tied by regulations from people who are actually trying to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past is a plot point. Like it or not, the RDA here do represent humanity, and they're conducting themselves far better than I would have imagined in any universe short of utopian ones like Star Trek.

You have a remarkable lack of imagination, except when imaginative thinking would let you avoid admitting a mistake.

No, I just have a pecimistic view of humanity. The RDA well exceeded my expectations in how respectful they were being to the Na'vi.

Just to be clear here Cesario, exactly what part of the movie are you getting "Earth has no plant life and everyone is slowly starving" bit? From what you've posted I think you're talking about the part when Jake plugs into the Tree of Souls to beg for help. A scene where it can hardly be claimed he is speaking of the literal facts of physical life on Earth as opposed to spiritual life on Earth.

Of course in the extended edition we get a few scenes on Earth. They're set in a very built up city, it looks very depressing. However when we see Jake get into a bar fight we don't see that all the people in the bar drinking Budweiser are starving. They certainly don't look "gray". Mostly they set up the fact that Jake really hates his life on Earth. I suppose from them you can claim that life as a poor person in a city isn't very good, but hell that goes for today too.

Why does Grace need to adapt Pandora life to restore the earth's biosphere if the earth's biosphere doesn't need restoring?

Earth could have a biosphere of algae and jellyfish and so on, and people could be living on algae soup and jellyfish and pollution-tolerant rice cultivars and so on, with most species being extinct or very very endangered in the wild. Grace could be interested in Pandora life mostly for its own sake, with a side order of being interested in various experimental gene-splicing techniques, without humanity being in danger of actual extinction. It would suck, but it wouldn't mean humanity doomed to mass die-offs without the unobtainium.

So you want to ignore the purpose of Grace's research as spelled out in the movie so you can pretend earth is in better shape than it is, so that humanity can be more evil in the film about humanity being evil. Can't say I blame you. It's more narratively tidy than what we actually got.

Frankly, I can't think of a reason why unobtainium would make the difference between survival and death for a heavily overpopulated humanity. How did we feed all those people before there was unobtainium? How did we feed them while building giant starships to go mine it? What, exactly, does the unobtainium do that is so damn critical to the basic minimal ability to feed people? You'd think this would be fairly important to the plot of the movie, if they were really trying to make it look the way you say it looks.

They weren't trying to make it look the way it does, in fact, look. They were trying to make a film about the magical native american stand-ins who were noble and in tune with nature successfully fighting off the evil greedy european stand-ins. Somehow in the transition to "in space" and the efforts to make all that effort plausible in a hard sci-fi setting, they accidentally gave the humans sufficient justification that their behavior (significantly toned down from actual european imperialists) ended up being perfectly justified.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

It has been suggested that unobtainium, as a room-temperature superconductor, would allow humanity to build better electrical transmission systems and cheap monorails. But when the substance costs something like $100m a pound and the shipments home are on the order of two spaceships full a decade, how exactly are we going to be able to build enough infrastructure with it to save humanity before we all die of the rampant starvation that is apparently going on?

Edit: Whoops, there was another page done before I wrote this; Xeriar answered much of what I said already.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Cesario, you see "unobtainium is worth a lot" and a single offhand comment that "Earth is a dying planet" and posit that this is proof that unobtainium is needed to save mankind instead of the obvious point that unobtainium is space gold and Jake Sully prefers lush Pandora so much that he fights for it instead of his planet of birth.

You see scientists examining the mystical flora of Pandora and decide that this is proof that we are researching the plants to repopulate Earth instead of the obvious conclusion that since they are focusing on the planetary "nerves" and "wires" instead of edible plants they are researching the weird interconnectedness instead of finding crops.

Answer this honestly: did you come into the movie already assuming that RDA's mission was to save mankind or did you actually determine that on your own from watching the film?

[Cesario]

Cesario, you see "unobtainium is worth a lot" and a single offhand comment that "Earth is a dying planet" and posit that this is proof that unobtainium is needed to save mankind instead of the obvious point that unobtainium is space gold and Jake Sully prefers lush Pandora so much that he fights for it instead of his planet of birth.

Trouble is, with no inherent value, there's no jusification for a massively expensive and energy intensive interstellar mining expedition at all. Space gold doesn't justify that resource expendature, since we didn't have any space gold back home to decide that it was valuable.

You see scientists examining the mystical flora of Pandora and decide that this is proof that we are researching the plants to repopulate Earth instead of the obvious conclusion that since they are focusing on the planetary "nerves" and "wires" instead of edible plants they are researching the weird interconnectedness instead of finding crops.

No, I see the scientists explaining their hopes that the Pandora flora can help restore earth's biosphere and I take that to mean something's wrong with earth's biosphere and that at least part of their research involves ways to use Pandora's flora to help restore earth's biosphere. It's a huge intuitive leap, so I'll understand if you aren't able to follow me on it, but being so brilliant, it's hard to break things down into simpler steps for lesser intelects.

Answer this honestly: did you come into the movie already assuming that RDA's mission was to save mankind or did you actually determine that on your own from watching the film?

I went into the movie assuming the RDA was exploring a weird new planet. I didn't follow much of the buildup to the movie. Just a few random trailer fragments. I was more concerned at the time about the Last Airbender film.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Unobtainium can have vast importance outside of cost and still not be vital to the survival of mankind. The fact that only a few tons per decade can be sent home precludes its widespread use. And again, importantly, the fact that its supposed importance to people's lives is never once brought up, ever, even when it would make sense to have been means there is no evidence it is important and a lot of evidence that it isn't.

As to Pandora's plants, I just went through the script and found every scene with Grace or Norm in it and there is no mention anywhere of using it to restore anything at Earth. There are four places where the plant life is seen as particularly interesting or important by them, and all four times it is the plants-as-nerves foreshadowing of Eywa. Nowhere is there anything about restoring Earth or food or anything.

[lordofchange13]

Unobtainium can have vast importance outside of cost and still not be vital to the survival of mankind. The fact that only a few tons per decade can be sent home precludes its widespread use. And again, importantly, the fact that its supposed importance to people's lives is never once brought up, ever, even when it would make sense to have been means there is no evidence it is important and a lot of evidence that it isn't.

As to Pandora's plants, I just went through the script and found every scene with Grace or Norm in it and there is no mention anywhere of using it to restore anything at Earth. There are four places where the plant life is seen as particularly interesting or important by them, and all four times it is the plants-as-nerves foreshadowing of Eywa. Nowhere is there anything about restoring Earth or food or anything.

Isn't Pandoran life suppose to be poisonous to humans?

[Simon_Jester]

I'm positing that the moral correctness of doing bad things to another being is related to that being's own adherence to moral standards. It is more wrong to kill Gandhi than it is to kill Hitler. The Na'vi aren't pure blameless noble savages here, and their behavior is likely to cost twenty billion people their lives...

No it isn't, and your entire argument falls apart right there.

Trouble is, the RDA are being so much more respectful and softhanded than mining companies throughout history. And when they're at an even greater advantage over the natives.

What, by bulldozing their homes and blowing up their villages and machine gunning the school their missionary scientist buddies set up? That's more respectful and softhanded than a typical mining company?

I want you to show me, right now, evidence that a "typical mining company" does worse than the RDA did on Pandora.

We see government oversight of RDA operations.

Where?

No, I just have a pecimistic view of humanity. The RDA well exceeded my expectations in how respectful they were being to the Na'vi.

Yes, they did, probably because you watched the movie with your eyes tight shut. Then made up a new story of your own, so that you could remember it as the righteous boot of Empire stomping on a blue face that so richly deserved it, forever. Until those blue ingrates got tired of it, the treacherous bastards.

Right.

So you want to ignore the purpose of Grace's research as spelled out in the movie...

Spell it out for me. Provide the quotes from the movie that prove your point. Just this once.

[Cesario]

I'm positing that the moral correctness of doing bad things to another being is related to that being's own adherence to moral standards. It is more wrong to kill Gandhi than it is to kill Hitler. The Na'vi aren't pure blameless noble savages here, and their behavior is likely to cost twenty billion people their lives...

No it isn't, and your entire argument falls apart right there.

It isn't more wrong to kill Gandhi than Hitler or the Na'vi denying earth access to the resources to ensure their survival isn't likely to kill those people who depend on those resources for their survival?

Trouble is, the RDA are being so much more respectful and softhanded than mining companies throughout history. And when they're at an even greater advantage over the natives.

What, by bulldozing their homes and blowing up their villages and machine gunning the school their missionary scientist buddies set up? That's more respectful and softhanded than a typical mining company?

I want you to show me, right now, evidence that a "typical mining company" does worse than the RDA did on Pandora.

Who are you quoting?

We see government oversight of RDA operations.

Where?

Wait, do you mean that you need to see an actual federal agent on Pandora? Or are the behaviors of the RDA and their obvious concerns about being shut down and replaced sufficient for you?

No, I just have a pecimistic view of humanity. The RDA well exceeded my expectations in how respectful they were being to the Na'vi.

Yes, they did, probably because you watched the movie with your eyes tight shut. Then made up a new story of your own, so that you could remember it as the righteous boot of Empire stomping on a blue face that so richly deserved it, forever. Until those blue ingrates got tired of it, the treacherous bastards.

Right.

It must be nice to have such a rose-tinted view of human history that the RDA's light touch here seems like the worst thing ever.

So you want to ignore the purpose of Grace's research as spelled out in the movie...

Spell it out for me. Provide the quotes from the movie that prove your point. Just this once.

I'm curious, what did you think the purpose of her botanical research was? They didn't know about the neurology of the planet before they sent her in there to do her botanical survey. Did you think she was here on pure research out of the goodness of the black hearts of the evil demonic human race?

[PeZook]

Okay, Cesario, here's the short version of the entire discussion: Your entire argument depends on the assumption that there will be a mass die-off at Earth (to the tune of billions of people) if unobtainium shipments slow down or are interrupted for a while (for example, if Selfridge redirects the bulldozers to another, smaller deposit instead of destroying the hometree).

Only with this assumption it makes sense to paint the Na'Vi as complete assholes for not wanting to leave their homes and the RDA as restrained and reasonable.

So prove it. Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are actually at stake.

[Simon_Jester]

The Na'vi aren't pure blameless noble savages here, and their behavior is likely to cost twenty billion people their lives...

No it isn't, and your entire argument falls apart right there.

It isn't more wrong to kill Gandhi than Hitler or the Na'vi denying earth access to the resources to ensure their survival isn't likely to kill those people who depend on those resources for their survival?

The resources aren't needed for survival. Your entire argument hinges on their being needed for survival, but they're not, so it falls apart.

Trouble is, the RDA are being so much more respectful and softhanded than mining companies throughout history. And when they're at an even greater advantage over the natives.

What, by bulldozing their homes and blowing up their villages and machine gunning the school their missionary scientist buddies set up? That's more respectful and softhanded than a typical mining company?

I want you to show me, right now, evidence that a "typical mining company" does worse than the RDA did on Pandora.

Who are you quoting?

I am quoting you, Cesario. I am accusing you of making up nonsense. I am accusing you of not knowing what real mining companies act like, and not knowing what the RDA acts like in the movie, and therefore saying a ridiculous thing about the RDA being "more respectful and softhanded" than a typical mining company.

Wait, do you mean that you need to see an actual federal agent on Pandora? Or are the behaviors of the RDA and their obvious concerns about being shut down and replaced sufficient for you?

One federal agent on Pandora wouldn't seem too much to ask- if it's vital to the survival of the human race, you'd think at least one person legally entitled to represent the whole human race, not just the shareholders of Space Rio Tinto, would be there. Besides, without a man on the scene, there's no way to exert any influence over what happens on Pandora without waiting eight or ten or twelve years for news to get back to Earth and orders to go to Alpha Centauri- if the government doesn't have physical eyes watching the RDA's operations on Pandora, they're not really supervising the place at all.

But even if we ignore that, what behaviors of the RDA? What obvious concerns about being shut down? When is this spoken of? Who says it, and to whom?

It must be nice to have such a rose-tinted view of human history that the RDA's light touch here seems like the worst thing ever.

Tell me where I said that.

I didn't say that it was "the worst thing ever." I said it wasn't unusually good.

I'm curious, what did you think the purpose of her botanical research was? They didn't know about the neurology of the planet before they sent her in there to do her botanical survey. Did you think she was here on pure research out of the goodness of the black hearts of the evil demonic human race?

Kid, I know more researchers than you do. Hell yes scientists will go to look at the things they don't understand, and hell yes they can get governments to fund it... if there's money to go round.

Which raises an interesting question. If Earth is starving and about to collapse for lack of precious unobtainium, why are there spare resources for the Avatar program and the science team? Why isn't every gram of cargo capacity on those starships devoted to carrying more equipment and people to operate the mines? The presence of the science team makes far more sense if the people of Earth value both the unobtainium and the bioscience being done on Pandora, to comparable degrees. Otherwise, they wouldn't waste time and money sending people to Pandora specifically to look at the native life, or send the complicated and expensive equipment to make the hybridized Avatar bodies.

[Shroom Man 777]

Don't those philipeno land owners need the farmers to work the land?

They can get new ones, or use the land to build a fucking highway or a giant stripmall or something.

To be fair, from the descriptions, it sounds like Loompaland was a worse place to live than Pandora.

Okay, Cesario, here's the short version of the entire discussion: Your entire argument depends on the assumption that there will be a mass die-off at Earth (to the tune of billions of people) if unobtainium shipments slow down or are interrupted for a while (for example, if Selfridge redirects the bulldozers to another, smaller deposit instead of destroying the hometree).

Only with this assumption it makes sense to paint the Na'Vi as complete assholes for not wanting to leave their homes and the RDA as restrained and reasonable.

So prove it. Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are actually at stake.


- PeZook

Grace never struck me as the reasonable type, to be honest.

Okay, Cesario, here's the short version of the entire discussion: Your entire argument depends on the assumption that there will be a mass die-off at Earth (to the tune of billions of people) if unobtainium shipments slow down or are interrupted for a while (for example, if Selfridge redirects the bulldozers to another, smaller deposit instead of destroying the hometree).

Only with this assumption it makes sense to paint the Na'Vi as complete assholes for not wanting to leave their homes and the RDA as restrained and reasonable.

So prove it. Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are actually at stake.


- PeZook

What weapons did the European colonists have that they didn't use on the native population? They used bio-weapons on them, after all.

I see no evidence that if they had an instant "I win" button that would let them wipe out the natives with no casualties on their side, that they wouldn't have used it.

What weapons did the RDA not use on the Na'vi? They gathered a fuckload of mining charges and dumped it out of their biggest aerospacecraft because that was the biggest explosion they could have. The other proposals of blasting them from orbit might've gotten them into trouble with Space EPA or whatever constraints a bunch of rent-a-cops would face from big government regulations constricting RDA's small business enterprise on Pandora.

If the RDA had an easier method of blowing up all the huddled Na'vi at the Soul Tree, like if they actually did have B-52s or some shit, I bet they would've used it too.

Observe and use for intelligence is reasonable. Accepting him into their society and treating him better than they did the people who weren't in the faction that was trying to kill them is somewhat less so. Not listening to the person you're keeping around as an intelligence asset when he tells you about an immenent attack is just unforgivably stupid.

Lord knows people can't make mistakes in emotionally stressful situations wherein your most valued spiritual monument (to a god that actually exists) has been crushed, and people are in confusion, and some people like Tsu'tey are voicing their rage (and sublimated romantic jealousy) at Sully whereas some people are just confused or distraught or shit like Neytiri? All while Jake's having his mental uplink disconnection fainting spells.

As for Jake being accepted better than the scientists, maybe the scientists were a bunch of shut-in social rejects who were previously very fat back on Earth before they went to Pandora which lacks 7/11s selling Cheetos, and yet despite losing their weight (we see that skinny scientist guy, and skinny chain smoking Grace), they still talk, walk and act like fat nerds. Whereas Jake, despite being crippled, is actually a socially ept (as opposed to inept) greased lightning coolio guy and isn't uptight over asking the Na'vi annoying research questions and instead is a natural born charmer?

I mean, look at how Grace and the nerds so quickly warmed up to Sully, and how even Quarritch liked him. While we see the scientists not getting along with the RDA guys. It's obvious that Sully has great social skills.

Why is the concept of Jake being more likeable and sociabler than pointdexter scientists so hard to accept and makes you go "ARGH NA'VI!" so much?

Maybe the scientists just came off acting like a bunch of Star Trek Federation dorks, which the Na'vi were all "eh?" to, whereas Jake was a funner guy who they could jam with.

Yeah, how dare those evil scientists have actual ideas and knowledge, and ask questions based on what they know? That isn't the Na'vi being anti-science. It's just...?

Why do you automatically think that the Na'vi are pissed that the scientists have different attitudes or think "how dare the scientists blah blah blah", rather than the Na'vi just liking Jake better because he didn't at all seem dismissive of their behaviors and practices or otherwise all preoccupied with scientific attitudes on interacting with tribal people while adhering to Prime Directive whatevers, and he seemed more like a genuinely happy person who enjoys living the Na'vi life, and maybe he didn't treat living with the Na'vi as an anthropological experiment or research project like what all the other scientists probably did?

Why all the automatic assumptions?

Turns out scientists doing science and researchers doing research comes off differently than some paraplegic just happy to be able to walk again and feeling genuinely alive to be with a group of people - WHO KNEW

I was going to suggest the humans might tell them, possibly show them a geological survey map, but then I remembered that the Na'vi don't talk to the humans, have nothing to learn from the humans, and are thus fully justified in remaining willfully ignorant of something that could prevent the loss of their own peoples' lives.

I was going to suggest the humans might tell them, possibly show them a geological survey map, but then I remembered that human fuckers shot and killed their children, and so the Na'vi stopped jamming (a process that involves talking) with those Avatar scientists and pretty much all the other humans too.

Problem is, this strategy goes against greed. Greed says you don't bother to hire private armies and transport military hardware across the universe if you have a peaceful option avalible to you. Especially when that peaceful option is the trivially easy "move the mining site that we'd have to move anyway to a place other than the one we originally planned on".

Eh. Maybe the other places that they could move to are too far and would make moving prohibitively expensive. It's obvious the RDA guys on Pandora were bloody incompetent.

Sounds to me like you don't respect or understand the people you're ranting about. Makes sense why you didn't understand that my reasons for disliking the pompous blue space elves were different from theirs.

I generally find jumping from "XYZ is worth a lot of money" to "ZOMG human survival plz!" hard to understand mang.

Point is, I don't expect imperialistic villains to hold back when they have an obvious advantage. Here they do it constantly.

Maybe they held back because they're a far flung operation with a shortage of men, machines and munitions. Maybe they held back because while Selfridge didn't give a shit about Grace Ripley's scientific blahs, he also seemed more concern about his golf clubs than Quarritch's military blahs. So you've got a split between empathic scientists, apathetic business guys who don't care as long as they get the monies, and the psychotic military guys who want to rah kill. The tempo of the humans' murderosity upped clearly when Quarritch took over, and by then Selfridge was just all quiet and had no fucking idea what to do.

Except no one was bulldozing their homes when Jake arrived, and the Na'vi were already in kill-on-sight mode.

The bulldozers were already on their way. Which is why I guess the Na'vi didn't like the bulldozers and were prone to vandalizing them.

Before the Children Massacre Edition, all we got was Quarritch going "Na'vi poisons will kill your ass" and "Na'vi are not easy to killerize" and Ripley going "Na'vi tend to get pissed when you machinegunned them".

Why? She's obviously of the opinion that the RDA are evil imperialists exploiting Pandora and the Na'vi. Why is it such a stretch that she might say something to that effect to the Na'vi themselves?

[/quote][/quote]

When shit hit the fan with the children murderings, the Na'vi relations with her also seemed to sour. I dunno, while she didn't like Selfridge and the military mangs, she was still on speaking and bantering terms with Selfridge and she was cool with Michelle Rodriguez. I don't really imagine her whispering all sorts of stuff to the Na'vi or whatever. They still ended up dumping her ass when the kids got massacred.

Anyway, massacred children is already enough reason for the Na'vi to get super pissed, and imagining or pretending Grace said this or that is pretty superfluous.

[Shroom Man 777]

MOREOVER:

The fact that Jake was approaching the interactions with the Na'vi in a way that's totally not scientific (because he's a dumbass), in a way unlike all the other researchers, could've been a big part of why they were chill with him.

Some guy comes to your house. Who do you think you'd warm up to better? Some guy who acts like some dorky census taker asking annoying questions and interviews while recording shit and it's obvious they're just poking at you for their projects? Or some guy who goes over to your place all chill, smoothly talks about the weather or shit, fucks around or bumbles in ways that make you laugh or take pity, eventually gets his shit together after you teach him and ends up helping you cook dinner or fix the lightbulb or something and it turns out he's pretty okay, and ends with sharing a beer and playing Xbox with you?

[Ryan Thunder]

I never really understood why the RDA would be the ones controlling the operation instead of something more like, say, NASA.

I mean, if the governments of the world can't afford it, there's no way in hell a private corporation is going to do better without compromising on stuff in the name of profits.

[Cesario]

Okay, Cesario, here's the short version of the entire discussion: Your entire argument depends on the assumption that there will be a mass die-off at Earth (to the tune of billions of people) if unobtainium shipments slow down or are interrupted for a while (for example, if Selfridge redirects the bulldozers to another, smaller deposit instead of destroying the hometree).

Only with this assumption it makes sense to paint the Na'Vi as complete assholes for not wanting to leave their homes and the RDA as restrained and reasonable.

So prove it. Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are actually at stake.

Where did I say that the die-off would occur at the slightest disruption? I'm positing that the unobtainium is actually necessary, but the need is obviously not so urgent as that. If it was, they would have nuked Pandora a long time ago and turned the entire planet into a strip mine. No, it's urgent enough that they need to mine it at some level, but the Na'vi simply don't want them to mine it at any level, and they are unwilling to entertain negotiations on the matter.

No it isn't, and your entire argument falls apart right there.

It isn't more wrong to kill Gandhi than Hitler or the Na'vi denying earth access to the resources to ensure their survival isn't likely to kill those people who depend on those resources for their survival?

The resources aren't needed for survival. Your entire argument hinges on their being needed for survival, but they're not, so it falls apart.

I'll take it as the later, then.

What, by bulldozing their homes and blowing up their villages and machine gunning the school their missionary scientist buddies set up? That's more respectful and softhanded than a typical mining company?

I want you to show me, right now, evidence that a "typical mining company" does worse than the RDA did on Pandora.

Who are you quoting?

I am quoting you, Cesario. I am accusing you of making up nonsense. I am accusing you of not knowing what real mining companies act like, and not knowing what the RDA acts like in the movie, and therefore saying a ridiculous thing about the RDA being "more respectful and softhanded" than a typical mining company.

You added "typical mining company" right in the quote that I'm disputing. Try to keep up. I'm not the one who spent so much time bringing up real life abuses by mining companies, farming companites, and their ilk throughout human history. I'm simply pointing out that compared to the real life activities, the RDA were being positively benevolent.

Wait, do you mean that you need to see an actual federal agent on Pandora? Or are the behaviors of the RDA and their obvious concerns about being shut down and replaced sufficient for you?

One federal agent on Pandora wouldn't seem too much to ask- if it's vital to the survival of the human race, you'd think at least one person legally entitled to represent the whole human race, not just the shareholders of Space Rio Tinto, would be there. Besides, without a man on the scene, there's no way to exert any influence over what happens on Pandora without waiting eight or ten or twelve years for news to get back to Earth and orders to go to Alpha Centauri- if the government doesn't have physical eyes watching the RDA's operations on Pandora, they're not really supervising the place at all.

But even if we ignore that, what behaviors of the RDA? What obvious concerns about being shut down? When is this spoken of? Who says it, and to whom?

Did you see any mention of public relations in your copy of the film, or were things that I saw removed in addition to things I didn't see being added between when I saw it and when you did?

It must be nice to have such a rose-tinted view of human history that the RDA's light touch here seems like the worst thing ever.

Tell me where I said that.

I didn't say that it was "the worst thing ever." I said it wasn't unusually good.

Still fairly rose tinted given what people have been bringing up about real life mining companies in situations that are far less important and taxing than ones in which an 8-12 year turnaround in another solar system was considered important enough to invest in.

I'm curious, what did you think the purpose of her botanical research was? They didn't know about the neurology of the planet before they sent her in there to do her botanical survey. Did you think she was here on pure research out of the goodness of the black hearts of the evil demonic human race?

Kid, I know more researchers than you do.

Love the ageist slights stirred in with being an internet expert on everything. Shall we start comparing e-penis sizes next?

Hell yes scientists will go to look at the things they don't understand, and hell yes they can get governments to fund it... if there's money to go round.

Except who was running those interstellar space ships again? Who was trying to get mining equipement and mercenaries to callously flamethrower the jungle paradise that felt they had some room to bring along some tree hugger science nerds who had nothing to say about the geology? Did they have any say over who was on their ship? Are you saying that *gasp* the government was forcing the mining company to make concessions and *double gasp* regulating their behavior? But that can't be possible. No one ever explicitly said "we are subject to government oversight" in the film.

Which raises an interesting question. If Earth is starving and about to collapse for lack of precious unobtainium, why are there spare resources for the Avatar program and the science team? Why isn't every gram of cargo capacity on those starships devoted to carrying more equipment and people to operate the mines? The presence of the science team makes far more sense if the people of Earth value both the unobtainium and the bioscience being done on Pandora, to comparable degrees. Otherwise, they wouldn't waste time and money sending people to Pandora specifically to look at the native life, or send the complicated and expensive equipment to make the hybridized Avatar bodies.

I did explain to you the program Grace was involved in to trasnplant Pandora flora to earth to revitalise the earth biosphere, did I not? Gee, why would anyone back on earth value something like that?

Don't those philipeno land owners need the farmers to work the land?

They can get new ones, or use the land to build a fucking highway or a giant stripmall or something.

You're the one who didn't realize what part not genociding these people played in their business model. Don't complain when I break down the obvious for you.

Now, what part does not genociding the Na'vi play in the RDA's business model?



As to the next bit, I see no point responding to the same drivel more than once.

What weapons did the European colonists have that they didn't use on the native population? They used bio-weapons on them, after all.

I see no evidence that if they had an instant "I win" button that would let them wipe out the natives with no casualties on their side, that they wouldn't have used it.

What weapons did the RDA not use on the Na'vi? They gathered a fuckload of mining charges and dumped it out of their biggest aerospacecraft because that was the biggest explosion they could have. The other proposals of blasting them from orbit might've gotten them into trouble with Space EPA or whatever constraints a bunch of rent-a-cops would face from big government regulations constricting RDA's small business enterprise on Pandora.

If the RDA had an easier method of blowing up all the huddled Na'vi at the Soul Tree, like if they actually did have B-52s or some shit, I bet they would've used it too.

You're asking me what weapons they didn't use, then you mention the Space EPA as your explaination for why they didn't use the dozen methods that have already been explained for nuking them from orbit, and you don't quite grasp that your hypothetical Space EPA is still an example of those evil, black hearted humans holding back. Just a means of doing so systemically.

Observe and use for intelligence is reasonable. Accepting him into their society and treating him better than they did the people who weren't in the faction that was trying to kill them is somewhat less so. Not listening to the person you're keeping around as an intelligence asset when he tells you about an immenent attack is just unforgivably stupid.

Lord knows people can't make mistakes in emotionally stressful situations wherein your most valued spiritual monument (to a god that actually exists) has been crushed, and people are in confusion, and some people like Tsu'tey are voicing their rage (and sublimated romantic jealousy) at Sully whereas some people are just confused or distraught or shit like Neytiri? All while Jake's having his mental uplink disconnection fainting spells.

Sorry, this is precisely as stupid as the Genni abducting McKay in Stargate Atlantis for his knowledge of nuclear physics, then not listening to him when he tells them to wrap some lead around their exposed reactors. Justify it however you like, but they had Jake there for precisely one purpose, and then they didn't listen to him when he was trying to help them in that purpose.

As for Jake being accepted better than the scientists, maybe the scientists were a bunch of shut-in social rejects who were previously very fat back on Earth before they went to Pandora which lacks 7/11s selling Cheetos, and yet despite losing their weight (we see that skinny scientist guy, and skinny chain smoking Grace), they still talk, walk and act like fat nerds. Whereas Jake, despite being crippled, is actually a socially ept (as opposed to inept) greased lightning coolio guy and isn't uptight over asking the Na'vi annoying research questions and instead is a natural born charmer?

I mean, look at how Grace and the nerds so quickly warmed up to Sully, and how even Quarritch liked him. While we see the scientists not getting along with the RDA guys. It's obvious that Sully has great social skills.

Why is the concept of Jake being more likeable and sociabler than pointdexter scientists so hard to accept and makes you go "ARGH NA'VI!" so much?

Maybe the scientists just came off acting like a bunch of Star Trek Federation dorks, which the Na'vi were all "eh?" to, whereas Jake was a funner guy who they could jam with.

And the Na'vi acting like a bunch of high school elitists is supposed to make them less repulsive or stupid?

Yeah, how dare those evil scientists have actual ideas and knowledge, and ask questions based on what they know? That isn't the Na'vi being anti-science. It's just...?

Why do you automatically think that the Na'vi are pissed that the scientists have different attitudes

I didn't, idiot. I'm responding to someone else in this thread who posited that as an explaination for why the Na'vi aren't being anti-science. I'm pointing out how that explaination doesn't actually fix anything.

or think "how dare the scientists blah blah blah", rather than the Na'vi just liking Jake better because he didn't at all seem dismissive of their behaviors and practices or otherwise all preoccupied with scientific attitudes on interacting with tribal people while adhering to Prime Directive whatevers, and he seemed more like a genuinely happy person who enjoys living the Na'vi life, and maybe he didn't treat living with the Na'vi as an anthropological experiment or research project like what all the other scientists probably did?

Why all the automatic assumptions?

Why all the assumptions? After that rant about the evils of nerds, I'm the one making assumptions because I look at what we actually saw in the movie, the Na'vi rejecting the scientists and teachers and embracing the warior explicitly because he was a warior.

Turns out scientists doing science and researchers doing research comes off differently than some paraplegic just happy to be able to walk again and feeling genuinely alive to be with a group of people - WHO KNEW

Why yes, they do come off differently. And the Na'vi rejected scientists doing research. What's your point?

I was going to suggest the humans might tell them, possibly show them a geological survey map, but then I remembered that the Na'vi don't talk to the humans, have nothing to learn from the humans, and are thus fully justified in remaining willfully ignorant of something that could prevent the loss of their own peoples' lives.

I was going to suggest the humans might tell them, possibly show them a geological survey map, but then I remembered that human fuckers shot and killed their children, and so the Na'vi stopped jamming (a process that involves talking) with those Avatar scientists and pretty much all the other humans too.

But decided that when a professional killer showed up, that'd be the perfect guy to start jamming with. You know, someone they could relate to as opposed to the person who tried to stop their children from being shot.

Problem is, this strategy goes against greed. Greed says you don't bother to hire private armies and transport military hardware across the universe if you have a peaceful option avalible to you. Especially when that peaceful option is the trivially easy "move the mining site that we'd have to move anyway to a place other than the one we originally planned on".

Eh. Maybe the other places that they could move to are too far and would make moving prohibitively expensive. It's obvious the RDA guys on Pandora were bloody incompetent.

Like I said, stupidity is fine, but when it's stupidity that goes against greed it shatters suspension of disbelief. You're still not getting the ammout of waste that was involved in getting those private armies and mech suits to Pandora in the first place.

Sounds to me like you don't respect or understand the people you're ranting about. Makes sense why you didn't understand that my reasons for disliking the pompous blue space elves were different from theirs.

I generally find jumping from "XYZ is worth a lot of money" to "ZOMG human survival plz!" hard to understand mang.

Yes, I realize to someone like you, there must be no other evidence in the entire film that's comprehensible to you. You have my sympathies.

Point is, I don't expect imperialistic villains to hold back when they have an obvious advantage. Here they do it constantly.

Maybe they held back because they're a far flung operation with a shortage of men, machines and munitions. Maybe they held back because while Selfridge didn't give a shit about Grace Ripley's scientific blahs, he also seemed more concern about his golf clubs than Quarritch's military blahs. So you've got a split between empathic scientists, apathetic business guys who don't care as long as they get the monies, and the psychotic military guys who want to rah kill. The tempo of the humans' murderosity upped clearly when Quarritch took over, and by then Selfridge was just all quiet and had no fucking idea what to do.

If you ar a far flung operation with a shortage of men, machines and munitions, then nuking the place from orbit is a lot easier and will waste far fewer of those men, machines and munitions than doing it the soft and subtle way of firebombing the Na'vi's tree city or hauling a bomber through the magnetic choke-point escorted by mechanised infantry.

Dropping a rock on the planet at about the right vector would have done more damage to the Na'vi, cost them fewer resources, and made the point in far more dramatic fassion. The only reason not to do so is if they genuinely didn't want to nuke the Na'vi for the sake of not nuking the Na'vi. The Na'vi did nothing positive for their operation at all, so the only reason not to get them out of the way pemanently and brutally is humanitarian reasons.

Instead, the RDA waste time, human lives, and limited resources with a measured, symbolic attack in the hopes of getting the Na'vi to back down.

Except no one was bulldozing their homes when Jake arrived, and the Na'vi were already in kill-on-sight mode.

The bulldozers were already on their way. Which is why I guess the Na'vi didn't like the bulldozers and were prone to vandalizing them.

Before the Children Massacre Edition, all we got was Quarritch going "Na'vi poisons will kill your ass" and "Na'vi are not easy to killerize" and Ripley going "Na'vi tend to get pissed when you machinegunned them".

If the Na'vi knew the dozers were on their way, they are even stupider than even I posited, since then they've got no excuse for being surprised when their holy site got run over. (And they should have mentioned to Jake a lot sooner that this was a holy site in the way of the bulldozers so he could get word back to his people, like they knew he was there to do.)

Why? She's obviously of the opinion that the RDA are evil imperialists exploiting Pandora and the Na'vi. Why is it such a stretch that she might say something to that effect to the Na'vi themselves?

When shit hit the fan with the children murderings, the Na'vi relations with her also seemed to sour. I dunno, while she didn't like Selfridge and the military mangs, she was still on speaking and bantering terms with Selfridge and she was cool with Michelle Rodriguez. I don't really imagine her whispering all sorts of stuff to the Na'vi or whatever. They still ended up dumping her ass when the kids got massacred.

Anyway, massacred children is already enough reason for the Na'vi to get super pissed, and imagining or pretending Grace said this or that is pretty superfluous.

Yes, it would be, were it not for the fact that the Na'vi never mention it again, the motivation behind the initial vandalism is somewhat unexplained, and most importantly why did they let Jake in at all after that?

Hm, to answer my own question, he was let in because of litteral divine intervention. Which makes them not listening to him later even more unforgivable.

MOREOVER:

The fact that Jake was approaching the interactions with the Na'vi in a way that's totally not scientific (because he's a dumbass), in a way unlike all the other researchers, could've been a big part of why they were chill with him.

Some guy comes to your house. Who do you think you'd warm up to better? Some guy who acts like some dorky census taker asking annoying questions and interviews while recording shit and it's obvious they're just poking at you for their projects? Or some guy who goes over to your place all chill, smoothly talks about the weather or shit, fucks around or bumbles in ways that make you laugh or take pity, eventually gets his shit together after you teach him and ends up helping you cook dinner or fix the lightbulb or something and it turns out he's pretty okay, and ends with sharing a beer and playing Xbox with you?

I'm more likely to shoot the later than the former, but that's me.

[Crazedwraith]

Cesario, this 'Na'vi' only respect warriors stuff is a bunch of crap. The Na'vi are not a race of warriors. All those people with bows ands dragons and things are hunters not warriors.

They didn't chill with Jake because they like warriors but if they have to fight humans they will be fighting the warriors. So they need to know about them.

Again, the reason they dislike the scientists, not because they're warriors who despise scientists but because the scientists are filled with preconceptions about them and their ways 'it is hard to fill a cup that is already full.'

Ironically you seem to be ascribing the same sin to the na'vi that they do the humans. The inability to accept another culture's values. I think its fair to say both sides in Avatar share this flaw; a mutual incomprehension of the other.


Most of your other stuff has been covered adequately by others. Suffice to say, you have not demonstrated that Earth is dependant on RDA's mining efforts for survival in anyway.

As far as I recall Grace does not talk about needing to rebuilt the biosphere. And the only person to talk about the Earth dying is Jake and he's using the same kind of language, an environmentalist might use today about us. We're not dying of starvation here either.

[PeZook]

Where did I say that the die-off would occur at the slightest disruption? I'm positing that the unobtainium is actually necessary, but the need is obviously not so urgent as that. If it was, they would have nuked Pandora a long time ago and turned the entire planet into a strip mine. No, it's urgent enough that they need to mine it at some level, but the Na'vi simply don't want them to mine it at any level, and they are unwilling to entertain negotiations on the matter.

Enough with the nitpicking bullshit.

Provide evidence there would be a mass die off on Earth if that specific deposit was not mined in that specific timeframe, thus necessitating the forcible and immediate eviction of the Na'Vi in the name of the greater good.

Cesario, this 'Na'vi' only respect warriors stuff is a bunch of crap. The Na'vi are not a race of warriors. All those people with bows ands dragons and things are hunters not warriors.

Well, they are both, really. They hunt and provide food most of the time, and fight when there's need (like when their holy site just got bulldozed), but that charge he is making is total bullshit.

Why? Answer that question: When was the last time a quantum physicist in the US got free movie tickets if he showed up to a movie in his lab coat?

Turns out humans love warriors and martial feats just as much as the Na'Vi do, which doesn't make the US a disgusting and primitive society by default!

[Cesario]

Cesario, this 'Na'vi' only respect warriors stuff is a bunch of crap. The Na'vi are not a race of warriors. All those people with bows ands dragons and things are hunters not warriors.

Jake was identified as a warior by the Na'vi, and on those grounds was considered someone more able to understand and sympathise with them. The scienists and educators were kicked out on their asses and only allowed back in when the warior Jake vouched for them. Dispite, apparently, Grace being one of the people who was responsible for any of those kids getting out of the school alive at all.

They didn't chill with Jake because they like warriors but if they have to fight humans they will be fighting the warriors. So they need to know about them.

Which again makes their refusal to learn anything from him all the more unforgivably stupid.

Again, the reason they dislike the scientists, not because they're warriors who despise scientists but because the scientists are filled with preconceptions about them and their ways 'it is hard to fill a cup that is already full.'

Ironically you seem to be ascribing the same sin to the na'vi that they do the humans. The inability to accept another culture's values. I think its fair to say both sides in Avatar share this flaw; a mutual incomprehension of the other.

Hense the Na'vi not being the pure noble savages that they're painted as by the story's narrative.

Most of your other stuff has been covered adequately by others. Suffice to say, you have not demonstrated that Earth is dependant on RDA's mining efforts for survival in anyway.

I'll admit the planet will probably get by just fine without the unobtainium. Most of the life forms on the surface are pretty well extinct already. Really it's just those filthy, evil humans who will suffer, and no one here cares about them.

As far as I recall Grace does not talk about needing to rebuilt the biosphere. And the only person to talk about the Earth dying is Jake and he's using the same kind of language, an environmentalist might use today about us. We're not dying of starvation here either.

We also aren't turning weird colors due to our diet today.

Where did I say that the die-off would occur at the slightest disruption? I'm positing that the unobtainium is actually necessary, but the need is obviously not so urgent as that. If it was, they would have nuked Pandora a long time ago and turned the entire planet into a strip mine. No, it's urgent enough that they need to mine it at some level, but the Na'vi simply don't want them to mine it at any level, and they are unwilling to entertain negotiations on the matter.

Enough with the nitpicking bullshit.

Provide evidence there would be a mass die off on Earth if that specific deposit was not mined in that specific timeframe, thus necessitating the forcible and immediate eviction of the Na'Vi in the name of the greater good.

I don't believe that to be the case. I'm sorry if you've managed to get that impression from our exchanges, but my position was that they needed to mine some, and that the Home Tree deposit was chosen because it was rich, and because blowing up Home Tree was more likely to discourage attacks than trying to mine anywhere else. The Na'vi were attacking already before Home Tree was destroyed, and actually looked like they were going to just move on with their lives until Jake rallyed them. Them not attacking RDA miners means no more machinegunning children as a nice side-effect, and no "earth getting frustrated and deciding that nuking them from orbit might not be such a bad idea after all" to boot.

Cesario, this 'Na'vi' only respect warriors stuff is a bunch of crap. The Na'vi are not a race of warriors. All those people with bows ands dragons and things are hunters not warriors.

Well, they are both, really. They hunt and provide food most of the time, and fight when there's need (like when their holy site just got bulldozed), but that charge he is making is total bullshit.

Why? Answer that question: When was the last time a quantum physicist in the US got free movie tickets if he showed up to a movie in his lab coat?

Turns out humans love warriors and martial feats just as much as the Na'Vi do, which doesn't make the US a disgusting and primitive society by default!

We don't tend to love them so much that we'll make the same offer to the guys who's job is killing our wariors (and apparently schoolchildren), though. The Na'vi apparently do.

[Simon_Jester]

So prove it. Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are actually at stake.

Where did I say that the die-off would occur at the slightest disruption? I'm positing that the unobtainium is actually necessary, but the need is obviously not so urgent as that. If it was, they would have nuked Pandora a long time ago and turned the entire planet into a strip mine. No, it's urgent enough that they need to mine it at some level, but the Na'vi simply don't want them to mine it at any level, and they are unwilling to entertain negotiations on the matter.

Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are at stake. You said it, so put your money where your mouth is.

I am quoting you, Cesario. I am accusing you of making up nonsense. I am accusing you of not knowing what real mining companies act like, and not knowing what the RDA acts like in the movie, and therefore saying a ridiculous thing about the RDA being "more respectful and softhanded" than a typical mining company.

You added "typical mining company" right in the quote that I'm disputing. Try to keep up. I'm not the one who spent so much time bringing up real life abuses by mining companies, farming companites, and their ilk throughout human history. I'm simply pointing out that compared to the real life activities, the RDA were being positively benevolent.

So prove that, with a detailed accounting of what the RDA did, supported by quotes and actions actually taken in the movie. And compare that with normal examples of mining and farming companies, to prove your claim- that the RDA is better than average by those standards.

Show what the RDA did that is more benevolent than, say, United Fruit, and what United Fruit did that was less benevolent than what the RDA did.

Did you see any mention of public relations in your copy of the film, or were things that I saw removed in addition to things I didn't see being added between when I saw it and when you did?

Quote those mentions of public relations in the film, that I may know what you're talking about.

...You didn't actually watch the movie did you.

Kid, I know more researchers than you do.

Love the ageist slights stirred in with being an internet expert on everything. Shall we start comparing e-penis sizes next?

Oh, there's lots of things I don't know much about. I don't know jack about, say, cars. I am constantly surprised by things I didn't know in biology and statistics and so on...

But I happen to know a lot of researchers, and be familiar with the history of some big research projects. Others here can vouch for me on this. You might be the sort of person I would expect to know more than me about how research is done and how scientists think and act, but I doubt it, because most people who know more than me about that show at least some sign of high-level scientific knowledge or thinking, which you don't show any signs of that I've seen.

I did explain to you the program Grace was involved in to trasnplant Pandora flora to earth to revitalise the earth biosphere, did I not? Gee, why would anyone back on earth value something like that?

OK, when and where in the movie did she talk about that? Prove that what you claim happened happened.

[Cesario]

So prove it. Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are actually at stake.

Where did I say that the die-off would occur at the slightest disruption? I'm positing that the unobtainium is actually necessary, but the need is obviously not so urgent as that. If it was, they would have nuked Pandora a long time ago and turned the entire planet into a strip mine. No, it's urgent enough that they need to mine it at some level, but the Na'vi simply don't want them to mine it at any level, and they are unwilling to entertain negotiations on the matter.

Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are at stake. You said it, so put your money where your mouth is.

I am quoting you, Cesario. I am accusing you of making up nonsense. I am accusing you of not knowing what real mining companies act like, and not knowing what the RDA acts like in the movie, and therefore saying a ridiculous thing about the RDA being "more respectful and softhanded" than a typical mining company.

You added "typical mining company" right in the quote that I'm disputing. Try to keep up. I'm not the one who spent so much time bringing up real life abuses by mining companies, farming companites, and their ilk throughout human history. I'm simply pointing out that compared to the real life activities, the RDA were being positively benevolent.

So prove that, with a detailed accounting of what the RDA did, supported by quotes and actions actually taken in the movie. And compare that with normal examples of mining and farming companies, to prove your claim- that the RDA is better than average by those standards.

Show what the RDA did that is more benevolent than, say, United Fruit, and what United Fruit did that was less benevolent than what the RDA did.

Did you see any mention of public relations in your copy of the film, or were things that I saw removed in addition to things I didn't see being added between when I saw it and when you did?

Quote those mentions of public relations in the film, that I may know what you're talking about.

...You didn't actually watch the movie did you.

Kid, I know more researchers than you do.

Love the ageist slights stirred in with being an internet expert on everything. Shall we start comparing e-penis sizes next?

Oh, there's lots of things I don't know much about. I don't know jack about, say, cars. I am constantly surprised by things I didn't know in biology and statistics and so on...

But I happen to know a lot of researchers, and be familiar with the history of some big research projects. Others here can vouch for me on this. You might be the sort of person I would expect to know more than me about how research is done and how scientists think and act, but I doubt it, because most people who know more than me about that show at least some sign of high-level scientific knowledge or thinking, which you don't show any signs of that I've seen.

I did explain to you the program Grace was involved in to trasnplant Pandora flora to earth to revitalise the earth biosphere, did I not? Gee, why would anyone back on earth value something like that?

OK, when and where in the movie did she talk about that? Prove that what you claim happened happened.

Here's the thing, dipshit, I'm not rewatching a shitty movie to pull quotes from. Especially with the evidence mounting that you watched an entirely different movie. We aren't arguing the same film, and if you and I can't agree on even the most basic facts of cannon, there's nothing to argue about when we discuss the moral standing of the various characters.

It seems that you have completely capitulated on the flat fact that I am correct in my judements of the Na'vi and the RDA if we presume that they behaved in the fassion that I have stated. The only argument you can think to bring up is to deny, deny, deny that they behaved in the manner that I have stated. I've also capitulated to the fact that if the Na'vi and the RDA behaved in the fassion that you have stated, that you have some ground for your moral judgements.

What more is there to discuss?

One final note, however. You knowing researchers doesn't make you smart, doesn't make you well educated, doesn't make you learned, and doesn't make you anything more than another internet tough guy claiming to know all sorts of shit in real life that we can't confirm due to the medium of our communication. I'm not putting up my credentials because they don't matter in this debate or any other, and I refuse to play that pathetic little game with you.

[Simon_Jester]

Here's the thing, dipshit, I'm not rewatching a shitty movie to pull quotes from.

So look up the damn script. It should be easy enough to find what you're talking about if it's there at all.

Especially with the evidence mounting that you watched an entirely different movie. We aren't arguing the same film, and if you and I can't agree on even the most basic facts of cannon, there's nothing to argue about when we discuss the moral standing of the various characters.

It seems that you have completely capitulated on the flat fact that I am correct in my judements of the Na'vi and the RDA if we presume that they behaved in the fassion that I have stated.

You do know there is only one "s" in "fashion..."

More to the point, I have not capitulated a damn thing to you- your 'judgments' are nakedly absurd. They are based on the assumption that people did things they did not do. For example, you could say: "Abraham Lincoln was a serial killer, so he was a bad man." But he wasn't a serial killer, so the assumption that he was is a pack of nonsense. The conclusion is equally nonsense.

If I say "no, Lincoln was not a serial killer," I'm not 'conceding' that if he was a serial killer that would make him a bad man. I'm proving your entire line of argument to be meaningless gibberish.

So no, you are not entitled to your own facts about what happened in the movie. You must supply facts and logic, not just assertions, especially when your memory contradicts every other person in the thread who watched the movie, and when you yourself admit that you had no idea what the hell was going on in the movie.

The only argument you can think to bring up is to deny, deny, deny that they behaved in the manner that I have stated. I've also capitulated to the fact that if the Na'vi and the RDA behaved in the fassion that you have stated, that you have some ground for your moral judgements.

What more is there to discuss?

That you have lied constantly and shamelessly about what is in the movie- either that, or you neither know nor care what happened in the movie, and have decided to make stuff up instead so you can make a fool of yourself on the Internet.

That is all there is to discuss.

One final note, however. You knowing researchers doesn't make you smart, doesn't make you well educated, doesn't make you learned, and doesn't make you anything more than another internet tough guy claiming to know all sorts of shit in real life that we can't confirm due to the medium of our communication. I'm not putting up my credentials because they don't matter in this debate or any other, and I refuse to play that pathetic little game with you.

I don't claim to be smart because I know researchers. I let others pass judgment on my intelligence from talking to me and getting to know me.

But I do claim that you are full of shit when you say researchers 'wouldn't do this' or 'couldn't do that,' based on my knowledge of researchers. Just as an auto mechanic might say I was full of shit if I claimed cars could drive up the sides of buildings, based on his knowledge of cars.

I could provide references for my credentials, if need be.

[Cesario]

Here's the thing, dipshit, I'm not rewatching a shitty movie to pull quotes from.

So look up the damn script. It should be easy enough to find what you're talking about if it's there at all.

Well, I suppose a quick look couldn't hurt:

Gone
The requested resource
/media/pdf/JamesCameronAVATAR.pdf.
is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource.

Huh, I don't recall that scene at all. I really must've been watching a different movie. I conceed.

Especially with the evidence mounting that you watched an entirely different movie. We aren't arguing the same film, and if you and I can't agree on even the most basic facts of cannon, there's nothing to argue about when we discuss the moral standing of the various characters.

It seems that you have completely capitulated on the flat fact that I am correct in my judements of the Na'vi and the RDA if we presume that they behaved in the fassion that I have stated.

You do know there is only one "s" in "fashion..."

No, actually. I can't spell.

More to the point, I have not capitulated a damn thing to you- your 'judgments' are nakedly absurd. They are based on the assumption that people did things they did not do. For example, you could say: "Abraham Lincoln was a serial killer, so he was a bad man." But he wasn't a serial killer, so the assumption that he was is a pack of nonsense. The conclusion is equally nonsense.

If I say "no, Lincoln was not a serial killer," I'm not 'conceding' that if he was a serial killer that would make him a bad man. I'm proving your entire line of argument to be meaningless gibberish.

You didn't read what I wrote there, did you? Go on, it's okay. No one will judge you for that. Or rather anyone who will judge you for that has already done so.

So no, you are not entitled to your own facts about what happened in the movie. You must supply facts and logic, not just assertions, especially when your memory contradicts every other person in the thread who watched the movie,

Sanity is not statistical, I'm afraid.

and when you yourself admit that you had no idea what the hell was going on in the movie.

Where did I say that? Oh, don't bother. I know how difficult it is looking these things up. Keeping track of what other people in the thread say is clearly too much work to ask of you. Nowhere near as easy as transcribing the entire film and going over the legal records of United Fruit, and I couldn't even do that much.

The only argument you can think to bring up is to deny, deny, deny that they behaved in the manner that I have stated. I've also capitulated to the fact that if the Na'vi and the RDA behaved in the fassion that you have stated, that you have some ground for your moral judgements.

What more is there to discuss?

That you have lied constantly and shamelessly about what is in the movie-

The movie that you didn't watch and I did. Or was that you? Oh well, I'll take a page out of your book and not bother caring about what the person I'm arguing about actually said and not go back and check.

either that, or you neither know nor care what happened in the movie, and have decided to make stuff up instead so you can make a fool of yourself on the Internet.

That is all there is to discuss.

And yet, you're not discussing it.

One final note, however. You knowing researchers doesn't make you smart, doesn't make you well educated, doesn't make you learned, and doesn't make you anything more than another internet tough guy claiming to know all sorts of shit in real life that we can't confirm due to the medium of our communication. I'm not putting up my credentials because they don't matter in this debate or any other, and I refuse to play that pathetic little game with you.

I don't claim to be smart because I know researchers. I let others pass judgment on my intelligence from talking to me and getting to know me.

Already done, friend.

But I do claim that you are full of shit when you say researchers 'wouldn't do this' or 'couldn't do that,' based on my knowledge of researchers. Just as an auto mechanic might say I was full of shit if I claimed cars could drive up the sides of buildings, based on his knowledge of cars.

When did I say anything like that? Wait, was this when I talked about how the evil, black hearted humans would never have financed a pure research mission? Did the "evil, black hearted" bit not tip you off that I was being deliberately absurd?

I could provide references for my credentials, if need be.

You're really the only one who thinks they're at all important. So only post them if it makes you feel better about the size of your penis. Me, I'm going to consider you an idiot either way.

[Darth Tedious]

Cesario:

The Avatar script is right here at IMSDB, fucktard.

I've been reading it whilst laughing at your bullshit through this whole thread.

You should probably make good with all those quotes supporting your claims, instead of continuing to try and weasel your way out of PROVING YOUR POINT.

[Shroom Man 777]

You're the one who didn't realize what part not genociding these people played in their business model. Don't complain when I break down the obvious for you.

Now, what part does not genociding the Na'vi play in the RDA's business model?

The part where Selfridge is concerned about PR and maybe not wanting to get sanctioned by socialist big government for violating business regulations on fucking war crimes?

Or the part where Selfridge deluded himself into being able to evict the Na'vi from their homes either with negotiations and trinkets and beans, or some tear gas and explosives (remember the RDA was surprised when the Na'vi started militarizing after the Home Tree destruction)?

Remember, Selfridge didn't really think the Na'vi would get pissed at being forced out of their homes, and was surprised that the natives got angry and all that.

You're asking me what weapons they didn't use, then you mention the Space EPA as your explaination for why they didn't use the dozen methods that have already been explained for nuking them from orbit, and you don't quite grasp that your hypothetical Space EPA is still an example of those evil, black hearted humans holding back. Just a means of doing so systemically.

Gasp! Turns out some humans may disagree with other humans and argue with them and contradict them and maybe hold them back from doing atrocities, or hang them in war crimes trials if they are caught doing atrocities?

Sorry, this is precisely as stupid as the Genni abducting McKay in Stargate Atlantis for his knowledge of nuclear physics, then not listening to him when he tells them to wrap some lead around their exposed reactors. Justify it however you like, but they had Jake there for precisely one purpose, and then they didn't listen to him when he was trying to help them in that purpose.

They got confused, did something stupid, and lost their game plan when shit broke down in a stressful situation. Why is this so hard to grasp? Unless you scream when people don't do the most logical thing when things around them are exploding and catching fire. Unless it's unfathomable if the Na'vi's change their minds and their attitudes.

And the Na'vi acting like a bunch of high school elitists is supposed to make them less repulsive or stupid?

Wow. Them liking person B over person A is a "repulsive" act while assholes machinegunning people and evicting folks from their home just to mine some shit is not? You're acting like one of those high school airheads who get into all sorts of gossipy catfights because Mary Jane didn't want to be your BFF forever and was hanging out with those other girls and not your clique or something.

I didn't, idiot. I'm responding to someone else in this thread who posited that as an explaination for why the Na'vi aren't being anti-science. I'm pointing out how that explaination doesn't actually fix anything.

Why all the assumptions? After that rant about the evils of nerds, I'm the one making assumptions because I look at what we actually saw in the movie, the Na'vi rejecting the scientists and teachers and embracing the warior explicitly because he was a warior.

Uh, the movie made a big ass point that since Jake was a paraplegic, he really didn't give a shit about his life as a human being and this made him embrace the Na'vi life in a way unlike all the other scientists who weren't cripples and who could live as healthy humans and who still had something to lose, or something of value, in their lives as humans.

It was "Na'vi embracing Jake explicitly because he showed a sincere loving to their way of life". At first, they merely tolerated him because "he is a warrior, we can learn from him", yes. But it's painfully obvious that attitudes changed over time, and they went from "he is a warrior who we can learn from" to "hey this guy is more than a warrior, and because of his sincerity (and not his warriorness), we think he's ok."

Why yes, they do come off differently. And the Na'vi rejected scientists doing research. What's your point?

The point was that Jake ended up actually acting totally like a Na'vi and figuratively becoming a Na'vi rather than some detached guy doing research, and this is what the Na'vi saw in him when they decided to accept him into their clan, and not their earlier notion of "he's a warrior, let's watch him".

It wasn't his warriorliness that made Jake fight for the Na'vi in the end. It was the fact that he considered himself one of them, which was in turn because he was a cripple in real human life and he found life as a Na'vi more real than his life as a wheelchair.

But decided that when a professional killer showed up, that'd be the perfect guy to start jamming with. You know, someone they could relate to as opposed to the person who tried to stop their children from being shot.

And? Your argument on the Na'vi being bad has now degenerated to "waaah they leiked Jakey Wakey better than Ellen Ripley". Which makes them all reprehensible and horrible! *machineguns blue people*

Like I said, stupidity is fine, but when it's stupidity that goes against greed it shatters suspension of disbelief. You're still not getting the ammout of waste that was involved in getting those private armies and mech suits to Pandora in the first place.

I guess the private armies and mech suits had dual purpose in dealing with the fuckoff monster wildlife. Anyway it's obvious that when things didn't go according to plan (natives not wanting to leave their homes), Selfridge and company were at a loss and were trying to ignore problems and making shit up on the spot and deluding themselves or whatever.

You can boil it down to three mindsets. The scientists who are still into "woah exploring awesome science", the business people like Selfridge who've just become totally apathetic (explaining why the whole system broke down because they really stopped giving a fuck) and thus became irrelevant in the sequence of events, and the mercenaries who went, well, insane. I guess that's what happens to their mentalities when they're stuck there for a decade in a weird ass environment, scientists who explore cope, mercenaries who want to kill things cope, and businessmen and accountants who are just doing their boring jobs... can't cope in that situation.

Yes, I realize to someone like you, there must be no other evidence in the entire film that's comprehensible to you. You have my sympathies.

Dude, you have been unable to bring up anything substantial aside from your heavily interpreted version of one line from Selfridge. If to someone like you, there WAS other evidence in the entire film that's comprehensible to you aside from your imaginary implications of Selfridge's dialogue, then where is it?

Okay, Cesario, here's the short version of the entire discussion: Your entire argument depends on the assumption that there will be a mass die-off at Earth (to the tune of billions of people) if unobtainium shipments slow down or are interrupted for a while (for example, if Selfridge redirects the bulldozers to another, smaller deposit instead of destroying the hometree).

Only with this assumption it makes sense to paint the Na'Vi as complete assholes for not wanting to leave their homes and the RDA as restrained and reasonable.

So prove it. Provide evidence that 20 billion lives are actually at stake.

- PeZook

If you ar a far flung operation with a shortage of men, machines and munitions, then nuking the place from orbit is a lot easier and will waste far fewer of those men, machines and munitions than doing it the soft and subtle way of firebombing the Na'vi's tree city or hauling a bomber through the magnetic choke-point escorted by mechanised infantry.

Dropping a rock on the planet at about the right vector would have done more damage to the Na'vi, cost them fewer resources, and made the point in far more dramatic fassion. The only reason not to do so is if they genuinely didn't want to nuke the Na'vi for the sake of not nuking the Na'vi. The Na'vi did nothing positive for their operation at all, so the only reason not to get them out of the way pemanently and brutally is humanitarian reasons.

Instead, the RDA waste time, human lives, and limited resources with a measured, symbolic attack in the hopes of getting the Na'vi to back down.

Where would they get orbital nukes when they can't even get large conventional gravity bombs and had to jerry rig their daisy cutter in the first place? How long would it have taken them to fly their spaceship off into the Pandora star system's asteroid belt, rig the asteroid belt to an industrial space winch, and haul it back over to Pandoran orbit and drop it over the Na'vi population centers?

If the Na'vi knew the dozers were on their way, they are even stupider than even I posited, since then they've got no excuse for being surprised when their holy site got run over. (And they should have mentioned to Jake a lot sooner that this was a holy site in the way of the bulldozers so he could get word back to his people, like they knew he was there to do.)

It was strange of them with all their horse scouts and guys on the flying creatures, to not-spot the incoming dozers earlier on. From the air, if the dozers are covered by the treetops, okay they might've not seen it. How near was the holy site to the Home Tree? If it was some distance, their horsemen might've also not been able to screen it. Forest is big and all that.

(If the Na'vi didn't know about the dozer convoy, the children-massacring still gives them enough reason to get fuckoff pissed. Oh, and the fact that according to their religion, the entire ecosystem is a sacred interlinked divine organism... which it is.)

[Cesario]

Cesario:

The Avatar script is right here at IMSDB, fucktard.

I've been reading it whilst laughing at your bullshit through this whole thread.

You should probably make good with all those quotes supporting your claims, instead of continuing to try and weasel your way out of PROVING YOUR POINT.

Why thank you, my good fucktard. This may turn out to be worth the effort after all.

Hm, it seems I misremembered where I learned the purpose of Grace's botanical research. The film has her on a research/diplomatic mission with no mention of restoring the earth's biosphere.

The population of earth is also not mentioned. You know, I think I got the number from another poster in this thread. For all we know, the entire population of the human species by this point are the characters we've seen on screen, at least two shareholders, and the guy who knifed Jake's brother, assuming he wasn't one of the shareholders.

Oh, let's see what else we have:

JAKE (V.O.)
There's a lot of crap like that. She's
always going on about the flow of energy--
the spirits of the animals and what not --

65.



VIDEO-LOG IMAGE -- HUMAN JAKE talks into the lens. He's
changing -- un-shaven, cheeks hollow. Pale.

JAKE
(SMIRKING)
I just hope this treehugger shit isn't on
the final.

Visible behind him, Grace is hunched over her samples.

GRACE
(without looking up)
This isn't just about eye-hand
coordination out there. You need to
listen to what she says. Try to see the
forest through their eyes.

JAKE
Excuse me -- this is my video-log here,
okay?

Yep, one of these two is being respectful and is interested in learning about the Na'vi culture and the other is full of preconceptions, all right.

What's next...

MO'AT
Why did you come to us?

JAKE
I came to learn.

MO'AT
We have tried to teach other Sky People.
It is hard to fill a cup which is already
full.

JAKE
My cup is empty, trust me. Just ask
Doctor Augustine. I'm no scientist.

MO'AT
What are you?

JAKE
I don't know. I was a Marine -- uh, a
warrior. Of the Jarhead clan.

TSU'TEY
(SUBTITLED)
A warrior! I could kill him easily!

EYTUKAN
(SUBTITLED)
No! This is the first warrior
dreamwalker we have seen. We need to
learn more about him.

JAKE
What's going on? What are they saying?

MO'AT
(to Neytiri, subtitled)
Daughter. You will teach him our way, to
speak and walk as we do.

Specifically identified as a Warrior. They think him more capable of understanding them than the scientists because of this trait. They say they want to learn more about him, but this entire exercise comes down to them teaching him rather than the other way around.

Hm, how about the "reveal"...

JAKE
(SUBTITLED)
A great evil is upon us. The Sky People
are coming to destroy Hometree. They
will be here soon.

A murmur of fear and anger goes through the crowd.

JAKE
(SUBTITLED)
You have to leave, or you will die.

MO'AT
Are you certain of this?

JAKE
They sent me here to learn your ways. So
one day I could bring this message, and
you would believe it.

They didn't believe it. Instead they lash Jake and Grace to a post and go out to fight the mercs.

Also, I didn't remember this little scene right before the firebombing. Quaritch makes a good point here:

IN THE DRAGON COCKPIT Quaritch watches a targeting screen --
a telescopic image of Jake and Grace tied to posts.

QUARITCH
Well, I'd say diplomacy has failed.

TSU'TEY and another HUNTER hold knives to the throats of the
two avatars, glaring defiantly at the gunships.

QUARITCH
I think they mean to cut their throats if
we don't back off. Make sure you get a
nice close-up of that. I can tack it onto
the after-action report.

Let's see, the relevant scene from the dozer briefing:

SELFRIDGE
Look, Sully -- find out what these blue
monkeys want.
(MORE)

52.

SELFRIDGE (cont'd)
We try to give them medicine and
education. Roads! But no -- they like
mud. I wouldn't care except --

Selfridge turns to a large 3D GRAPHIC DISPLAY, pointing. A
road runs from Hell's Gate to a proposed new mine miles away.

SELFRIDGE
Their damn village is sitting right over
the richest unobtanium deposit for a
hundred klicks in any direction. Which
sucks -- for them -- because they need to
relocate.

JAKE
(taking that in)
Does Augustine know about this?

SELFRIDGE
Yeah, she does, and she's on the next
ship back if she tries to cock-block me
on it.

JAKE
So -- who talks them into moving?

QUARITCH
(TURNING)
Guess.

JAKE
What if they won't go?

QUARITCH
(ICY)
I'm betting they will.

SELFRIDGE
Killing the indigenous looks bad, but
there's one thing shareholders hate more
than bad press -- and that's a bad
quarterly statement. Find me a carrot to
get them to move, or it's going to have
to be all stick.

Jake is shaken by the enormity of this new responsibility.

QUARITCH
You got three months. That's when the
dozers get there.

JAKE
I'm on it.

This one is particularly useful when you note the mission Selfridge gives Jake. Find out what they want. Selfridge is trying to negotiate. He's willing to use force, but the first thing he notes is his desire for Jake to find a peaceful settlement. In his mind fighting and killing the Na'vi is not the best choice, but the Na'vi aren't negotiating. It takes the multimillion dollar skin suit they got Jake and litteral divine interevention to get him to the point of maybe being able to get them to tell him what they want, and Selfridge is trying to use this oportunity to ask what they want. What a mostache twirling villain, right?

Looking over Quaritch's initial briefing we have this:

QUARITCH
We have an indigenous population of
humanoids here called the Na'vi. They're
fond of arrows dipped in a neurotoxin
which can stop your heart in one minute.
We operate -- we live -- at a constant
threat condition yellow.

Either they ran a lot of weirdly unecessary chemical analasys on a random discarded arrow, or they know how fast the neurotixin works on a human being precisely the way you would expect them to learn this fact.

This is also a fun bit of context regarding how the RDA have been behaving up to this point:

OPERATOR
Hey, I got one of the natives blockin' my
blade here.

This attracts the attention of Selfridge, who comes over to
the workstation.

ON THE SCREEN -- Jake, in his Omaticaya loincloth and
ceremonial body paint, is unrecognizable.

SUPERVISOR
(to Selfridge)
What do we do?

SELFRIDGE
Roll on. He'll move. These people have
to learn that we don't stop.

They've never so much as played a game of chicken with the Na'vi with their mining equipment up until the incident with Jake. Whatever happened with those "kids" (given that Jake's love interest was included among them, I'm not so sure how well that term applies) must've been a pure strike by the Na'vi in question. Can you see it taking this long before even getting to the point of "they need to learn to move out of the way of the construction equipment" stage with any other imperialist power?

And just because I happened upon it:

NEYTIRI
I am with you now, Jake. We are mated for
life.

JAKE
We are?

NEYTIRI
Yes. It is our way.
(INNOCENTLY)
Oh. I forgot to tell?

He rouses up, making her look at him.

JAKE
Really, we are?

NEYTIRI
We are.

Jake considers this.

JAKE
It's cool. I'm there.

It's nice that Jake is all cool with this, but this is actually pretty dispicable behavior on her part. Especially considering what this ends up triggering with Tsu'tey later.

Another scene with our evil corporate monster:

SELFRIDGE
Good of you to stop by. How's it going
out there? Our blue friends all packed
up yet?

Selfridge swings his DRIVER with good form.

SELFRIDGE
See, I keep hooking it. It's the damn
pack.

THE BALL drops into the mud just past a marker which reads
220. A TROOPER walks over to retrieve it.

SELFRIDGE
The low gravity and the high air density
cancel out so --

JAKE
You called us back to report -- you want
to hear it or not?

SELFRIDGE
Go ahead.

GRACE
Jake is making incredible progress, years
worth in just a few months. But -- we
need more time.

81.



SELFRIDGE
Not what I was hoping to hear.

It starts to rain. Selfridge calmly pulls an umbrella from
his golf bag and snaps it open.

GRACE
Parker, it's their ancestral home.
They've lived there since before human
history began. You can spare them a few
more weeks.

SELFRIDGE
This thing is inevitable. What does it
matter when it happens? I'm sorry, Dr.
Augustine. You're out of time.

Callous as they're trying to make Selfridge here, he raises a good point. They've had three months, and accomplished absolutely nothing in terms of finding out how to negotiate with the Na'vi. Grace asks for a few more weeks, but doesn't have an answer in terms of what difference it will make. She does look like she's just trying to delay the inevidable at this point.

He wanted to hear that they've been successful with their assigned mission of negotiating with the Na'vi, but they can't even bring him a single thing that indicates that real progress has been made. Not one want or need the Na'vi have that could be used as the carrot he asked for three months ago. Just Grace's assurance that they've been making incredible progress, which, realistically, they haven't. Not towards the goal that Selfridge had them working on. Maybe anthropologically, and from a pure research prospective, but Jake learned nothing about how to negotiate with or trade with these people. In three months of living as one of them. That's pretty good evidence from his prospective that they aren't going to be able to negotiate in a couple weeks or ever.

From Quaritch's briefing on the Well of Souls attack:

QUARITCH
People, you are fighting for survival.
There's an aboriginal horde out there
massing for an attack. First slide.

124.



The display shows an overhead image of the Well of Souls. It
looks like Woodstock in the jungle.

QUARITCH
These orbital images show the hostiles'
numbers have gone from a couple of
hundred to over two thousand in one day,
and more are pouring in. By next week it
could be twenty thousand. Then they'll be
overrunning our perimeter here. We can't
wait. Our only security lies in pre-
emptive attack. We will fight terror
with terror.

TRACKING ACROSS the grim faces of the miners and troopers.
Fear transforming to hatred in their eyes.

QUARITCH
Next slide. This mountain stronghold is
supposedly protected by their deity.
When we destroy it, we will blast a
crater in their racial memory so deep
they won't come within a thousand klicks
of this place.

He could have bombed Jake's army into oblivion since Jake was conveniently gathering them all up in one place. Plus, he was being kind enough to do it in a place that wasn't suffering the electromagnetic disruption that made it even thinkable that Jake's army could stop the bombers. Instead, Quaritch went for the symbolic target, with the stated goals of making them too afraid to attack the humans. He was targeting, in his mind, a nonexistent spiritual diety as a demonstration of power, which means killing the Na'vi's will to fight without needing to kill their army.

What's more, he's doing this in order to avert an immenent attack by an army in the thousands.

And note the response from our evil imperialist Selfridge:

SELFRIDGE
This thing is completely out of control!

Quaritch ignores him, turning away to focus on ordnance
loading.

SELFRIDGE
Listen to me! I am not authorizing you to
turn the mine-workers local into a
freakin' militia!

125.



QUARITCH
I declared threat condition red. That
puts all on-world assets under my
command.

SELFRIDGE
You think you can pull this palace coup
shit on me?! I can have your ass with
one call --

Quaritch grabs him and PINS him against the side of an
ampsuit.

QUARITCH
You're a long way from Earth.

Selfridge is paralyzed. Physical force -- against him?
Quaritch releases him and walks away.

QUARITCH
(to his men)
Get him out of here.

Several troopers converge on Selfridge.

SELFRIDGE
You touch me you're so fired.

He pushes through them and they escort him toward the door.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the attrocities from the imperialists in real life generally things that are callously approved of or looked the other way from by the corrupt corperate executives in charge?

Though it is interesting that Jake isn't at all taken aback by this. Are these sorts of military coups something he's used to? Sure seemed to surprise the hell out of Selfridge. Maybe it's got to do with him having already fully adopted the Na'vi mindset by now.

Just another fun note about things that the Na'vi might just not have enough imagination to ask for:

Tsu'tey weakly clutches his severed queue.

TSU'TEY
I can never ride again, or bond with my
woman -- or hear the voice of Eywa. I can
not lead the People. You will lead them,
Jakesully.

JAKE
No. I'm not officer material.

TSU'TEY
It is decided. Now do the duty of
Olo'eyctan. Set my spirit free.

JAKE
I'm not killing you.

TSU'TEY
I am already dead.

149.



JAKE
No.

TSU'TEY
It is the way. And it is good. I will be
remembered --

Tsu'tey's voice is weak, but thick with emotion.

TSU'TEY
-- I fought with Toruk Macto, we were
brothers -- and he was my last shadow.

TSU'TEY'S HAND clasps with Jake's in a fierce grip. Jake
draws his knife.

TSU'TEY'S POV -- Jake leans forward, blocking the sun.
HIS SHADOW falls across Tsu'tey.

JAKE
(NA'VI)
Forgive me, my Brother. Go now to the
Mother Spirit.

By his movement, we know that he has ended Tsu'tey's pain.
Jake's eyes well with tears as he continues reciting the
prayer for the dead, and his Na'vi words carry over as we --

We know Selfridge offered medicine, and Tsu'tey is opting for ritual suacide because of a specific kind of neurological damage will leave him a cripple for life. We know that human medical technology can fix this sort of thing, as it's what they were offering Jake in the film. Pity it was impossible to negotiate with these people, since there was nothing stopping a mutually beneficial trade agreement except the Na'vi's own arrogance.

Since Jake is the Na'vi's leader at this point, I think we can take his narration as the Na'vi prospective on the cycle of life and death:

JAKE (V.O.)
The forest will heal, and so will the
hearts of the People. New life keeps the
energy flowing, like the breath of the
world.

If they didn't take the "ruined forever" additude towards the ecological damage that's been done, why would they not take the same prospective towards the earlier mining the RDA was doing? Is it just that the filthy humans are off their pristine planet now? Do you have an alternate explaination for it?

I'm going to leave off there for the moment, but let's see how the conversation goes from there.