Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

BEIT SHEMESH: The battle over religious extremism in Israel now has an unexpected public face - that of a blonde, bespectacled eight-year-old girl.

She is Naama Margolese, the daughter of US immigrants who are observant modern Orthodox Jews. A television program at the weekend told the story of how Naama had become terrified of walking to her primary school in Beit Shemesh, a Jewish city between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, after ultra-Orthodox men spat on her, insulted her and called her a prostitute because her modest dress did not adhere exactly to their more rigorous dress code.

The country was outraged. Naama's picture has appeared on the front pages of all major Israeli newspapers. Although the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said on Sunday that ''Israel is a democratic, Western, liberal state'' and pledged that ''the public sphere in Israel will be open and safe for all'', there have been days of confrontation.

Ultra-Orthodox men and boys from stringent sects have hurled rocks and eggs at the police and journalists, shouting ''Nazis'' at the security forces and assailing women reporters with epithets like ''whore'' and ''shikse'', a derogatory Yiddish term for a non-Jewish woman or girl.

For many Israelis, this is not a fight over one girl's walk to school. It is a struggle that could shape the character and soul of the country, against ultra-Orthodox zealots who have been encroaching on the public sphere with their interpretation of modesty rules, enforcing gender segregation and the exclusion of women.

The battle has grown increasingly visible. Orthodox male soldiers walked out of a ceremony where female soldiers were singing, adhering to what they consider to be a religious prohibition against hearing a woman's voice; women have challenged the seating arrangements on kosher buses, serving ultra-Orthodox neighbourhoods and some intercity routes where they are expected to sit at the back.

''We are working to save our city and to save our homes,'' Dov Lipman, 40, a local activist, rabbi and modern ultra-Orthodox who moved to Beit Shemesh from the US seven years ago, said. Seizing on the public mood of rejecting ultra-Orthodox bullying, Mr Lipman and supporters have been lobbying parliament, organising protests and working with a media consultant. He said that is how Naama's story came out.

In Ramat Beit Shemesh B, signs on buildings call for modesty, exhorting women and girls to dress in buttoned-up, long-sleeved blouses and long skirts. Outside a synagogue, a sign requested that females cross to the opposite sidewalk and not tarry outside the building.

Naama's school opened in September in an area with a large community of English-speaking observant Jews that borders on the strictest ultra-Orthodox neighbourhoods. She soon found she had to run a gantlet to get to school, even dressed in long sleeves and long skirts.

Riots broke out this week when the police accompanied media crews into Hazon Ish Street, where Naama's tormentors are believed to have come from. Hundreds of men and boys poured out of the synagogue and a seminary holding signs calling for the exclusion of women.

Many of the ultra-Orthodox agitators blamed the media for the unrest, saying they had come into ultra-Orthodox neighbourhoods to sow hatred and persecute residents for their beliefs.

Meanwhile, some residents insisted that Beit Shemesh was a tolerant city but defended some gender separation and modesty on religious grounds.
''I think women are very poorly treated in Western society,'' said Cindy Feder, 57, from Ramat Beit Shemesh A. She came to Israel from New York in 1970. Ms Feder said the objectification of women on billboards made her sick.
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Segregation of women, 'modest' clothing, discrimination on buses, etc. It doesn't appear that the problem with the ultra-Orthodox is going to go away any time soon. These sects have huge numbers of children.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by AniThyng »

I'm curious, what are the Ultra-Orthodox views on conservative Islam? If hostile, it seems like a case of how you hate most the ones most like you...
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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AniThyng wrote:I'm curious, what are the Ultra-Orthodox views on conservative Islam? If hostile, it seems like a case of how you hate most the ones most like you...
I think they pretty much shit all over anybody who isn't exactly like them (other Jews included).
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by Simon_Jester »

Do the children of ultra-Orthodox families reliably remain ultra-Orthodox?

This reminds me of people panicking about the prospect that fundamentalist Christians will outbreed everyone else in America. That's been expressed since... probably around the 1980s, but it isn't happening. The strategy doesn't work as well as one might think, because a large fraction of the children desert the movement, or at least stop being fanatical enough to properly be counted as a part of it.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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Simon_Jester wrote:Do the children of ultra-Orthodox families reliably remain ultra-Orthodox?

This reminds me of people panicking about the prospect that fundamentalist Christians will outbreed everyone else in America. That's been expressed since... probably around the 1980s, but it isn't happening. The strategy doesn't work as well as one might think, because a large fraction of the children desert the movement, or at least stop being fanatical enough to properly be counted as a part of it.
It appears so. The problems with the ultra-Orthodox seem to be getting progressively worse. Although, it would be best if a local Israeli could clarify this for us.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by Edi »

The Israeli state should treat the Ultra Orthodox rioters and terrorists exactly like they treat Palestinians now. Then they might have something factual to complain about with their whining about persecution. Worthless parasites, the lot of them.

The problem is that for too long, Israel has coddled these fanatics and catered to their every whim and now they need to use a lot more force to put them back in their place. Hopefully they won't shy away from doing it, because otherwise the problem will just keep getting worse.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by CJvR »

It is amusing how standing up against religous persecution automatically becomes persecution of religion in the feeble minds of fundamentalists.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by cosmicalstorm »

AniThyng wrote:I'm curious, what are the Ultra-Orthodox views on conservative Islam? If hostile, it seems like a case of how you hate most the ones most like you...
Consider that this is how they treat other Jews living in the same country, paying taxes to the same military machine... Go figure.

Here is one video of many.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdeqXQPW7TM
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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This reads more like a scene out of Iran than out of Israel.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think one reason that the Jews are having such problems with their ultra-orthodox fanatics is that they don't have institutional memory of dealing with the problem of fanaticism in their own ranks: of handling people who are clearly 'really really Jewish' and yet in the wrong.

For most of its history, Judaism has existed as a minority religion surviving among a majority of non-adherent gentiles. The Jews might have some degree of internal autonomy (i.e. the Ottoman Empire), but ultimately the demands of external law meant that there were limits on how rigorously Jewish religious law could be enforced.

Now that they have their own country they face an inherent contradiction- on the one hand, they still acknowledge the basic validity of Jewish religious law, and respect people who adhere to it more rigorously. On the other, they also value a variety of political and religious freedoms that come out of Enlightenment mores.

The ultra-orthodox become a problem because of the contradiction- while the Israeli population as a whole does not want women to be oppressed, they are in some sense stuck letting the fanatics do it, because they respect the extreme 'purity' of the fanatics' adherence to Jewish religious law.

Islam has the same problem to an even greater degree because they don't have a tradition of living among foreigners who prevent them from treating their religious law as the supreme law of the land.
bobalot wrote:It appears so. The problems with the ultra-Orthodox seem to be getting progressively worse. Although, it would be best if a local Israeli could clarify this for us.
Are the problems getting worse because there are more of them, or because a more or less fixed-size minority is flexing its muscles more?
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by Eulogy »

Irony and hypocrisy abounds! Not that it's surprising.

How much froth would come from the fanatics' mouths if you showed them a woman in a t-shirt and pants? OH NOES SEXY FOREARMS I CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!11
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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As I recall, there was actually a time when the Israeli government encouraged these people. They are in some ways a solution to the essential demographic problem of Israel, the fact that the population of Jewish people is a post-demographic transition population, while the Palestinians seem unable to exit the transition, probably because of their status as second-class citizens. The long term effect of this will be, unless something changes, to make the Jews once more a minority, in a country that is ostensibly theirs. Since the ultra-conservatives have fuckloads of kids, they were seen as part of the solution.

Now however, they seem to be part of the problem. Oh, they might claim to be out to protect modesty and women, but really, it's just the same patriarchy as it ever was.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by Faqa »

Thanas wrote:This reads more like a scene out of Iran than out of Israel.
And in the tradition of Iranian crazy acts, this one is not intended for people on the outside looking in, it's intended for other people on the inside. It's "more modest than thou" dick-waving between Haredic sects, not An Effort To Force Religion On The Secular.

Fortunately, the two biggest tabloids national newspapers in the country are gleefully baying for blood on both this and the bus incident from a few weeks back. This is doing a lot for their ratings and for the decisiveness of haredim in joining the "OK, FUCK these borderline Goyim" camp.

Very little for actually advancing toward a solution that doesn't lead to civil war, but who cares about that?

Note - the Haredim are absolutely in the wrong here, obviously. But screaming and calling them idiotic primitives is not helping. This isn't an Internet debate (well, THIS is, but I was referring to how Israel is reacting).
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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Vehrec wrote:As I recall, there was actually a time when the Israeli government encouraged these people. They are in some ways a solution to the essential demographic problem of Israel, the fact that the population of Jewish people is a post-demographic transition population, while the Palestinians seem unable to exit the transition, probably because of their status as second-class citizens. The long term effect of this will be, unless something changes, to make the Jews once more a minority, in a country that is ostensibly theirs. Since the ultra-conservatives have fuckloads of kids, they were seen as part of the solution.

Now however, they seem to be part of the problem. Oh, they might claim to be out to protect modesty and women, but really, it's just the same patriarchy as it ever was.
Yeah a great idea that was. It's like fighting rats with poisonous snakes, and be surprised they're now stuck with a worse kind of vermin. Maybe snake eating gorilla's are the sollution for this problem.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

cosmicalstorm wrote:
AniThyng wrote:I'm curious, what are the Ultra-Orthodox views on conservative Islam? If hostile, it seems like a case of how you hate most the ones most like you...
Consider that this is how they treat other Jews living in the same country, paying taxes to the same military machine... Go figure.
Ah, but that's just it. The ultra-Orthodox don't pay taxes, because they don't work, and their "religious studies" are in fact subsidized by the Israeli government...
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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Vehrec wrote:As I recall, there was actually a time when the Israeli government encouraged these people. They are in some ways a solution to the essential demographic problem of Israel, the fact that the population of Jewish people is a post-demographic transition population, while the Palestinians seem unable to exit the transition, probably because of their status as second-class citizens. The long term effect of this will be, unless something changes, to make the Jews once more a minority, in a country that is ostensibly theirs. Since the ultra-conservatives have fuckloads of kids, they were seen as part of the solution.

Now however, they seem to be part of the problem. Oh, they might claim to be out to protect modesty and women, but really, it's just the same patriarchy as it ever was.
On the other hand, if you turn Israel into a complete third world fundie shithole, then maybe all the Arabs (or enough of them) will pack up and move away.

Bonus points if you scare the secular Jews away as well.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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But then the (now in the majority) ultra-Orthodox Jews might have to work, instead of getting fed by their rich first-world government while harassing everyone else and plunging their country into wars.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

Bet that family is missing those "not Jewish enough" American values on civil liberties.

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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by cosmicalstorm »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
cosmicalstorm wrote:
AniThyng wrote:I'm curious, what are the Ultra-Orthodox views on conservative Islam? If hostile, it seems like a case of how you hate most the ones most like you...
Consider that this is how they treat other Jews living in the same country, paying taxes to the same military machine... Go figure.
Ah, but that's just it. The ultra-Orthodox don't pay taxes, because they don't work, and their "religious studies" are in fact subsidized by the Israeli government...
I was referring to the other Jews (not crazy religious) who do pay taxes. I know about that particular insanity and I wonder if that will be the end of Israel considering their massive breeding program.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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What do you do when you're a member of an ultra-orthodox religious group that is criticized for attempting to impose your ideas about how people should live on others? When you are criticized for being sexist dickwads?

Dress up like WWII concentration camp prisoners and compare your "oppression" at not being allowed to force women to the back of the bus to being starved, worked to death, and slaughtered like cattle
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What a bunch of assholes - they aren't oppressed, they just think they are. Wah-wah-wah - you won't let us oppress others, so you're just like Nazis!

Man, I want to bitchslap the lot of them. Then leave used menstrual products in their sock drawers. What they did was offensive on several levels.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by Grumman »

Wow. I don't know which is more amazing, that they'd sink to the level of doing this, or that they thought it would actually work.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by KhorneFlakes »

And those people are the kind of people I would like to shoot at. Not trying to come off as psychopathic or being psychopathic: I just having trouble actually trying to feel anything for a someone stupid as that without their moronic shit coming to mind. I have the same issues with Christian Fundamentalists.

I'm both amused and annoyed by it, frankly: The fact that some Jewish are now just as racist as the people who hated them is something I find somewhat strange. It was inevitable, I suppose.

And one thing I've noticed: Why has comparing stuff to the Holocaust become a trend nowadays? I mean really, it used to be spoken about in hushed tones. Now people seem to be chucking it about like it's the latest fashion trend or something. That's not cool.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

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KhorneFlakes wrote:I just having trouble actually trying to feel anything for a someone stupid as that without their moronic shit coming to mind. I have the same issues with Christian Fundamentalists.
Fundies are fundies regardless of flavor - they all have that "we're oppressed even when we're not" thing going, and also insistence on shitting on everyone else.
The fact that some Jewish are now just as racist as the people who hated them is something I find somewhat strange. It was inevitable, I suppose.
It's eternal. There have always been bigoted Jews simply because Jews are as human as anyone else, and there have always been bigots.
And one thing I've noticed: Why has comparing stuff to the Holocaust become a trend nowadays?
The first person memories are dying off, leaving a younger generation with, at best, a superficial knowledge and understanding of just what that horror was.
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Re: Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

Broomstick wrote:
KhorneFlakes wrote:I just having trouble actually trying to feel anything for a someone stupid as that without their moronic shit coming to mind. I have the same issues with Christian Fundamentalists.
Fundies are fundies regardless of flavor - they all have that "we're oppressed even when we're not" thing going, and also insistence on shitting on everyone else.
The fact that some Jewish are now just as racist as the people who hated them is something I find somewhat strange. It was inevitable, I suppose.
It's eternal. There have always been bigoted Jews simply because Jews are as human as anyone else, and there have always been bigots.
The difference is that natural human bigotry can be reduced/eliminated through familiarization, integration, and learning. Jewish people have been told for about 2000 years that they are better than everyone, the chosen of mankind. It's not just humanity anymore, it's ingrained in the religion and culture. The fact that fundie chrisitians in the states and over the world try and push that point as why people should help Jewish people above others of equal or greater need just makes it worse.

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