IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

[Darth Wong]

Who cares if they're all US Marines, or whether some of them come from some other military service? They're obviously modern western-style military personnel of some sort, which makes them look like good guys if you worship at the altar of western militarism, which is what American conservatives do. That's the big problem with the movie for some people: they feel like they totally understand the things Quaritch is saying and doing, so they're angered at the way he's made out to be a bad guy.

They're all mercenaries to me, which means its irrelevant what style military personnel they are; it should come as no surprise that they're bad guys. US MARINES HUT HUT HUT is about as asinine and out of place as making some silly comment about... whatever the Swedish equivalent is.

Wow, you're really dense, aren't you? His "US MARINES HUT HUT HUT" dig was a dig at US worship of the military in general, not the Marines specifically. Are you seriously thinking that he would have thought it was OK if Quaritch and Sully were Army instead of Marines?

[Ryan Thunder]

Wow, you're really dense, aren't you? His "US MARINES HUT HUT HUT" dig was a dig at US worship of the military in general, not the Marines specifically. Are you seriously thinking that he would have thought it was OK if Quaritch and Sully were Army instead of Marines?

I read it as a dig at the US military itself, not worship of it.

[Darth Wong]

Wow, you're really dense, aren't you? His "US MARINES HUT HUT HUT" dig was a dig at US worship of the military in general, not the Marines specifically. Are you seriously thinking that he would have thought it was OK if Quaritch and Sully were Army instead of Marines?

I read it as a dig at the US military itself, not worship of it.

Jesus fucking Christ, he was talking about the way people like Douchebaggio view the movie, Einstein.

[Ahriman238]

Who cares if they're all US Marines, or whether some of them come from some other military service? They're obviously modern western-style military personnel of some sort, which makes them look like good guys if you worship at the altar of western militarism, which is what American conservatives do. That's the big problem with the movie for some people: they feel like they totally understand the things Quaritch is saying and doing, so they're angered at the way he's made out to be a bad guy.

I can understand and sympathize a bit with Quaritch and Selfridge, and still think they're wrong, and villains. Sometimes it's fun to rewatch movies and root for the bad guys (at least it keeps it from getting boring.) But how can I have any empathy for these men?

Quaritch is, if not in the script than the EU, pretty much the last survivor of the Old Guard who carved a secure base out of the jungle. The men who found out about every deadly critter on Pandora by being there when one or more of them was killed by the beasties. I daresay none of his dialogue in the film contradicts this idea. He's more than a bit crazy by the end, but you know what? He's doing his job, which is to ensure the security of the base, and carry out the orders of his boss Selfridge (I know, the Nuremburg Defense doesn't hold in any court, but I honestly think in Quaritch's mind questions of policy are above his pay grade. He still thinks of himself as a grunt who will figure out the hows and let Selfridge worry about the whys.) He predicts from the beginning that conflict with the Na'vi is inevitable, he may be right. Besides possibly one comment during the Hometree attack ("that's how you scatter the roaches.") he never really shows hatred or contempt for the Na'vi, just for Sully whom he considers a traitor.

So even as he does terrible deeds, I can admire his loyalty to the company, his commitment to his men, and especially his competence. Quaritch is one of the villains who never does something stupid because the plot demanded it, so he was never less than intelligent or badass. That made him more threatening.

Selfridge I see as not being a 'details man.' He's responsible for all Hell's Gate so he really doesn't keep track of every skirmish with the locals, or every discovery by the scientists. I doubt he's the first leader of Hell's Gate, by all acoounts RDA has been there for decades (Grace has published a book on the Na'vi language and culture on earth, Jake mentions growing up hearing about Pandora) and I suspect his predecessor was recalled for making insufficient gains. It would explain why he's so driven to make more, rather than settle on a less profitable vein.

In fact, Selfridge seems to feel very pressured by his higher-ups. He admits to Jake that forcing the Na'vi out, and possibly killing a large number of them is bad PR, but the Board will prefer bad PR to a bad profitable quarter. He also complains to Grace that relations with the Na'vi are worse than ever, presumably referring to the school shooting and resulting skirmishes, and supporting that RDA has been there a while. For this implied pressure, his "what have we done" face during the Hometree attack, and his objection to Quaritch's Shock and Awe attack, I cut the man some slack. It really felt like he was a decent, but not very good man in a bad position. He isn't malicious, just apathetic to the harm he does (or he tries to be apathetic anyway) and that makes him a better villain. It's not hard at all to imagine being Parker Selfridge, in the grip of forces beyond your control, trying to reconcile the orders form on high with the difficulties, moral and physical of carrying them out.

EDIT: It is also not inconceivable that a former marine, leading at least some other former marines in a mercenary practice, would adopt some of the traditions and conventions of the marines. Where it is practical to do so, anyway.

[AniThyng]

* This word is hard to make out. Gyrine? Jarine? Meh.

"Gyrene". Appropriately enough, it actually is slang for a US Marine

[Cesario]

I really don't get nerd's reaction to Avatar. I don't see how anyone can even pretend to argue that RDA were in the clear over everything that happened in the film. I liked the film but I feel a legitimate point of criticism against it is that RDA was almost comic bookish in their level douchebaggery.

With the proviso that when a comic book villain has a doomsday device, they rarely just throw the thing in the closet and try their hardest to never mention it.

You know it amuses me people who can see Avatar having a message that being luddites is good, when the technologically inferior Navi were losing until Captain Planet Erwa came to the rescue. Do people see the humans in Independence Day, War of the Worlds or V as luddites because the aliens were technologically superior?

Its just a case of a bad guy having more raw power than their opponents and for the good guys to win they require some other means rather than brute strength. In Independence day it was a silly computer virus, War of the Worlds and V it was biological weapons. In Avatar it was Captain Planet Erwa.
There are many reasons an author could use to make the villain more stronger than the protagonist. Having better technology is just one of the explanations.

But it is amusing people with their quasi imperialistic mindsets try to justify it as Navi are Luddites wah wah wah. Its like they are too cowardly to just come out and say what they really want to say, that might makes right. Its only after you push them and take apart their retarded apologeticism that they are forced to do so.

Except for the part where the Na'vi were giving lectures about how the evil, soul-less humans aren't at one with nature, or like our great hero, after becoming the leader of the Na'vi tells their god that humans killed the planet earth. No, there was clearly no luddism here at all.

You have the family (tribe in this case) living on a ranch (or foraging habitat in this case), and then the asshole businessman coming by trying to take their land: first by offering unacceptable terms, then by subterfuge, then by harassment, then by naked violence. Add to this mix the stranger, who rides in from out of town, fits in with no one, takes up residence with the besieged family, and defends their ranch against the businessman's hired thugs.

It's also amazing how if you changed the family of Arkansas good old folks with Mary Sues and Bobby Joes and turned them into exotic strange different blue non-human foreigners, turned their idyllic farmy warmy lifestyle into some woo-woo nature-worshiping primitivist jungle people stuff with glowy plants, and instead of having Clint Eastwood portray the stranger, you have a disillusioned traitor-Marine who is all paraplegic AND sentimental over the native's wishy-washy stuff, the people who otherwise would root for the small townsfolk would end up vilifying these guys and shrieking about how they are reprehensible and whatnot.

And give the asshole businessman some fancy shmancy military hard-dick machinery, replace the slimey incompetent goons with mustaches for US MAREENS HUT HUT HUT, and you've got people bending over and flip flopping and fellating these guys as SAVIORS OF THE WORLD HARVESTING MIRACLE ROCKS TO SAVE HUMANITY! And making up all sorts of bullshit justifications for them.

Again, it's an excellent examination of prejudices. And like they say, there are no guys more prejudiced than...

Because the last post on page 13 really goes to show how much of that I made up.

Also, since you're now accepting that wiki:

Unobtanium (pronounced un-ub-TAIN-e-um) is a highly valuable mineral found on the moon Pandora. Humans mine unobtanium to save the Earth from its energy crisis; bluntly put, they need it for their survival.

http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Unobtanium

Strange that in your scouring this wiki for things you think will destroy my case, and your absolute certainty that everything in the EU contradicts my position, you never bothered to look at the obvious article on Unobtainium.

Really?

Unobtanium (pronounced un-ub-TAIN-e-um) is a highly valuable mineral found on the moon Pandora. Humans mine unobtanium to save the Earth from its energy crisis; bluntly put, they need it for their survival.[citation needed]

Make sure you read that last bit:

[citation needed]

The articles everyone else else been quoting have been referenced back to canonical sources (be it the Pandorapedia, or the ASG).

Where is this energy crisis ever mentioned in the EU? Please, citation needed.

Take a quick looksie at the edit dates. Wikis keep those, you know. Hadn't been touched since October, then I post a link here, and your [citation needed] tag appears, and is just as quickly removed. It's almost as though some sort of vandal decided to edit the page after seeing something he didn't like on the wiki. Now who would be motivated to do such a thing the same day that link gets posted here?

Also, here's another fun link for you:
http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/ ... #Crisis.3F

It's a bunch of people asking for references to the energy crisis, and a bunch of other people not providing them. Very much like what we have here.

Read it again and count the number of people included in your "a bunch". I think you'll find that number is one.

Please, evidence is required to back up this energy crisis. People have been asking for this for 14 pages now. You claimed to have conceeded, but are now apparently flogging this dead horse again.

Actually, I ran into it when I followed your link to the timeline and started looking for info on the original mining operation. And since you seemed to think this wiki was a great source at the time, enough to whinge over me "ignoring" it, then I'm surprised that you now think it's a crap source that needs to go deeper (after your quickly reverted vandalism attempt, mind you).

Now, check this out: http://www.pandorapedia.com/
This is an official page, cited as a source for many of the wiki articles.

That's nice.

Here's a really important bit about the RDA's history.

With millions of shareholders, RDA is the oldest and largest of the quasi-governmental administrative entities (QGAEs). But its origins are far more modest. The entity that would become RDA was little more than a Silicon Valley garage startup in the early 21st century, when its two founders borrowed money from family members to begin the company.
Within a few decades, the company had the stature to propose the construction of a world-spanning rapid transit system that would allow entire population groups to conveniently commute hundreds or even thousands of miles to perform work where it was needed, without impinging on the cultural values of host populations. This led to the current global network of maglev trains that require the superconductor unobtanium for their continued operation.

The company's early expeditions to Pandora were seen as a colossal risk; the construction of the first interstellar vehicle alone put an enormous strain on capital resources. But with exclusive mining rights to unobtanium (which, at time of publication is valued at $20 billion per kilo), and potential profits from countervirals, biofuels, and cosmetics, the enormous capital investment has paid off.

Absolutely nothing about an energy crisis.

Why would you expect it to be mentioned in that exerpt?

Where's the energy crisis? Please, present evidence that there was one.

I did. A few articles from the wiki you accused me of ignoring, then vandalised.

Because the fact that the RDA was able to build a fucking INTERSTELLER STARSHIP TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO ONE HAD GONE BEFORE very strongly suggests that they weren't exactly strapped for cash (at least not before they poured all their money into a GIANT AWESOME SPACESHIP).

But it gets even better:
Think of the timeline of these events. The company formed in the early 21st century, and within a few decades proposed a GIANT MAGLEV TRANSIT SYSTEM.
Now, this thing needed unobtainium to run, but wait up a second...
Pandora wasn't discovered until 2129.

The RDA proposed to build something that they didn't have the means to build. They created the demand for unobtanium. They wanted it so they could build their railway.

Wow, it's almost like the site you chose to refference is self-contradictory in a number of places and far less reliable than the one that cleaned up your vandalism, huh?

The RDA then spent a shit ton of the world's money sending spaceships out- for what?
Did they use Jedi precog to know that there would be magic rocks on the elf-planet?

That's the best explaination avalible if we accept your dates, actually.

The justification for the mining is no better than "We spent a lot of money getting here, we better get something to show for it."

So they're selling the unobtainium to themselves to build the maglev at rediculusly inflated prices as an accounting trick? Is this your theory?

Then there's the circular creation of further demand- "We 'need' more unobtainium so we can build MORE spaceships to mine MORE unobtanium!"

This part didn't make sense to you?

There was no actual need for unobtanium in the first place.
It was a massive propellant for the economy, that there is no doubt.

Except according to you it was an economic trick that could have just as easily been done by mining dogsdroppings, then selling them back to themselves at overly inflated prices.

But where was the economic crisis? Where was the energy crisis?

We need EVIDENCE.
You need to provide evidence.

You mean the evidence you tried to destroy?

And this applies to a lot of your arguments.

We can say "hey, here's an EU source, and it has no mention of any energy crisis/mining treaty with the Na'vi"
And you can say "that doesn't prove that there wasn't an energy crisis/mining treaty with the Na'vi."

I can show you a book that doesn't mention the existence of evolution anywhere in it. Does that mean that evolution is something you just made up on the spot?

You need to prove that there was an energy crisis/mining treaty with the Na'vi.

Oh, this is ammusing, given the vandalism attempt.

I mean, ffs:

Didn't you notice that I conceeded that there was no evidence that the mineral was necessary for human survival in the film some time ago?

And you're now trying to argue that there was (again),

You don't read so good. Check the bold. Again.

based on an unreferenced single sentece in the wiki, with no supporting evidence?

A wiki that was acknowledged as valid evidence by my opposition, to the point of them insulting me for "ignoring" it. Yeah, that's really a sign that I'm up against honest debaters who care about the truth, isn't it?

I guess supporting evidence doesn't mean much to you, given that you can hold fast to a position that has none.

Please, you had your chance to bow out gracefully.

---

HEY! THAT WAS BORING! TIME FOR SOME MORE FUN FACTS ABOUT THE RDA!
Courtsey of: http://www.pandorapedia.com/unobtanium_ ... d_refinery

Closer inspection by an orbiting ISV revealed that there are many deposits of unobtanium on Pandora, some of which are even richer than that at ESM 01. It is expected that further exploitation of Pandora’s unobtanium deposits will eventually result in construction of further mines, with at least twenty-five potential sites already located. Plans are already underway to develop a substantial deposit within a few miles of ESM 01.

WOW! They totes could have mined SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN HOME TREE! At least 25 sites!

Yeah, they could have blown up 25 different tribes that didn't have the heroe's girlfriend living in them. And still been shot at even when they didn't.

Unobtanium’s unique properties are largely dependent on the inner structure of the material, which must be preserved through the refining process. Initial purification is done in large ball mills, followed by successive nitric and hydrofluoric acid rinses. Acidic effluent is discharged into the stream to help control growth of life forms near the mine workings.

WOW! That's so environmentally friendly!
How green of them to think to SPRAY HYDROFLOURIC AND NITRIC ACID EFFLUENT AS WEED KILLER.
Tell us all again how a company that sprays its toxic waste at the native wildlife is nicer than the native people who don't want their home demolished.

Willingness to talk. Interseted in the survival of 20 billion people versus inconvenience of a few thousand at most. Holding back militarily for humanitarian reasons.

Where is this energy crisis ever mentioned in the EU? Please, citation needed.

Perhaps more to the point, why would anyone assume that an energy crisis is an existential crisis,

People who don't ignore or try to destroy evidence that outright states this fact.

or that it is not self-inflicted through absurd overuse of energy?

We could just let ten billion or so filthy, stinking humans die so we won't have to spend all that energy keeping them alive. Then the remaining 10 billion fitlhy, stinking humans can repeat the process when it turns out they still can't survive in a dead biosphere with their existent resources, and a few more billion people die.

If America said "we need oil" and invaded another country for it, who besides Americans would think that this makes them the good guys?

Because that's what happened here.

Add the fact that the bad guys wanted to build a railroad.

Yes. Mang, the energy crisis shit is hilarious: the unspecified city that Sully resides in has the sky completely obscured by holographic commercials, dirt-poor jobless veterans have huge wallscreen TVs in their tiny apartments, people are cremated in huge-ass complexes that operate dozens of furnaces, traffic lights actually change the color of the entire piece of asphalt instead of just a light post...

And of course they send starships away using a laser whose power source could, at minimum, deliver 100x the electricity consumed annually by the average American today to 33 billion people. Clearly they are in danger of running out of energy

EDIT: Oh, and they can afford the luxury of trying to recreate extinct species with bioengineering.

My favorite part is where the starships are decelerated on the outgoing voyage and accelerated on the return voyage by anti-matter, but they only carry enough anti-matter to do that once. That means RDA built giant ass anti-matter production facilities that can produce at least as much energy as that laser... 4.2 light-years away!

EDIT: http://www.pandorapedia.com/human_opera ... nture_star Read all about it here.

EDIT 2:

Range:
4.4 light-years. This range is set by onboard fuel supply and its containment system, and the life-support consumables, and the infrastructure needed to contain them. Because each gram of mass must be accelerated and decelerated (as well as the onboard fuel to accomplish this), every possible weight-saving measure has been taken. The ship carries only enough fuel for the planned mission profile, and a minimal amount of additional maneuvering. There are only enough supplies for the minimum crew needed to remain out of cryosleep. Air, water, and food must be replenished at Pandora, and the ship refueled there with locally-manufactured anti-matter and hydrogen and deuterium harvested from Polyphemus.

Too bad the antimatter reactors require unobtainium to be constructed on the scales needed.

I thought there was a line in the film about how on earth these guys were marines, men of honor and country, here they're all mercenaries, company men, fighting for their paycheck. IIRC it was when Jake first landed at Hell's Gate.

When Jake and Quaritch first meet.

Quaritch mentions having done tours of Venezuela and Nigeria with 1st Recon (a RL Marine unit). Even if it wasn't a direct reference to the RL unit, it was obviously meant to show that these guys are the equivalent of Marines.

Then there's this:

QUARITCH: But we have a unique opportunity here, you and I. A recon Marine in an avatar body could get me the intel I need, on the ground, right in the hostiles' camp.

Though the line was different in the film:

However, it does present an opportunity, both timely and unique.
(shouts) CLEAR!
A Recon Gyrine* in an Avatar body. Huh. That's a potent mix. Gives me the goosebumps. Such a Marine could provide the intel I need, right on the ground.

It's quite clear that at least Jake and Quaritch were certainly Marines (or a direct futuristic equivalent). It was in the script, and Quaritch explicitly said 'Marine' in the film, even after saying some other Gyrine shit.
As to how many of the other SecOps troops were ex-Marines, who knows?
At the very least, the audience were clearly meant to identify the central military characters as US MAREENS HUT HUT HUT.

* This word is hard to make out. Gyrine? Jarine? Meh.

Also, Jake identifies himself to the Na'vi as:

JAKE
I don't know. I was a Marine -- uh, a
warrior. Of the Jarhead clan.

Wow, you're really dense, aren't you? His "US MARINES HUT HUT HUT" dig was a dig at US worship of the military in general, not the Marines specifically. Are you seriously thinking that he would have thought it was OK if Quaritch and Sully were Army instead of Marines?

I read it as a dig at the US military itself, not worship of it.

Jesus fucking Christ, he was talking about the way people like Douchebaggio view the movie, Einstein.

Um, given that you've used that fairly lame nickname to reffer to me as often as you have, I have to ask, have you actually read anything I've written on Quaratch or his behavior in this thread?

[Xess]

My favorite part is where the starships are decelerated on the outgoing voyage and accelerated on the return voyage by anti-matter, but they only carry enough anti-matter to do that once. That means RDA built giant ass anti-matter production facilities that can produce at least as much energy as that laser... 4.2 light-years away!

EDIT: http://www.pandorapedia.com/human_opera ... nture_star Read all about it here.

EDIT 2:

Range:
4.4 light-years. This range is set by onboard fuel supply and its containment system, and the life-support consumables, and the infrastructure needed to contain them. Because each gram of mass must be accelerated and decelerated (as well as the onboard fuel to accomplish this), every possible weight-saving measure has been taken. The ship carries only enough fuel for the planned mission profile, and a minimal amount of additional maneuvering. There are only enough supplies for the minimum crew needed to remain out of cryosleep. Air, water, and food must be replenished at Pandora, and the ship refueled there with locally-manufactured anti-matter and hydrogen and deuterium harvested from Polyphemus.

Too bad the antimatter reactors require unobtainium to be constructed on the scales needed.

Of course they still managed to send star-ships to Alpha Centauri before they had unobtanium, powered by anti-matter still.

The first interstellar ship was over four kilometers long, because of the massive refrigeration system required to maintain the conventional low-temperature superconducting magnets that produced the containment field for the matter-antimatter reaction

A civilization undergoing an energy crisis does not build anti-matter powered star-ships. All unobtanium did was make it profitable to do it. Now where did I read that again, oh right I remember.

It was not until the discovery of the high-temperature superconductor unobtanium on Pandora that interstellar travel and commerce became commercially viable.

Read it right here under Design History.

EDIT: Does the EU stuff say there is an energy crisis. I honesty don't care, but with all the other information it provides if it does say there is an energy crisis it makes absolutely no logical sense.

[Darth Tedious]

So Cesario, after your long and contentless post, do you have any canonical sources (beyond a single unreferenced sentence) that say anything about an energy crisis yet?

The wiki can be edited by anyone, that's why it requires citations from actual canon sources.

Do you have a source that mentions the energy crisis yet?

Because those of us who believe that there was no energy crisis have some evidence to support that belief.
The laser-powered ships, the holographic ads across the sky, Jake's awesome TV.
Hell, the sheer energy requirements of intersteller travel tell us that if there was an energy crisis (and we still have no evidence of this), it would have been the RDA who caused it!

Does the EU stuff say there is an energy crisis. I honesty don't care, but with all the other information it provides if it does say there is an energy crisis it makes absolutely no logical sense.

No. It doesn't. That's what I've been trying to tell this impenetrable wall of ignorance.

The only mention of an energy crisis is that single sentence in the wiki, which isn't referenced to any source.

It's just a milwank fanfic theory.

[Cesario]

My favorite part is where the starships are decelerated on the outgoing voyage and accelerated on the return voyage by anti-matter, but they only carry enough anti-matter to do that once. That means RDA built giant ass anti-matter production facilities that can produce at least as much energy as that laser... 4.2 light-years away!

EDIT: http://www.pandorapedia.com/human_opera ... nture_star Read all about it here.

EDIT 2:

Too bad the antimatter reactors require unobtainium to be constructed on the scales needed.

Of course they still managed to send star-ships to Alpha Centauri before they had unobtanium, powered by anti-matter still.

The first interstellar ship was over four kilometers long, because of the massive refrigeration system required to maintain the conventional low-temperature superconducting magnets that produced the containment field for the matter-antimatter reaction

That's exactly what I was referring to. Superconductors are required for them to make use of their anti-matter reactors, and Unobtainium is what makes them practical on the sorts of industrial scales that are required.

A civilization undergoing an energy crisis does not build anti-matter powered star-ships.

One that's explicitly seeking extrasolar resources because it knows that the ones it has on hand aren't going to be enough does.

All unobtanium did was make it profitable to do it. Now where did I read that again, oh right I remember.

It was not until the discovery of the high-temperature superconductor unobtanium on Pandora that interstellar travel and commerce became commercially viable.

Read it right here under Design History.

Already did. That's why I know that unobtainium was important to the mechanism they're using to get antimatter reactors working. (Instead of just maglev trains like some idiots would have you believe.)

EDIT: Does the EU stuff say there is an energy crisis. I honesty don't care, but with all the other information it provides if it does say there is an energy crisis it makes absolutely no logical sense.

Of course you don't care what's actually said. Can't let little things like cannon facts get in the way of your obviously superior knowledge of antimatter physics to the people who are actually running antimatter reactors.

So Cesario, after your long and contentless post, do you have any canonical sources (beyond a single unreferenced sentence) that say anything about an energy crisis yet?

Why yes, the website you chastised me for ignoring, while claiming that it was a perfectly valid source.

The wiki can be edited by anyone, that's why it requires citations from actual canon sources.

It also has an edit history so we can see that interesting little ping where someone decided to add the exact string you thought was important after I posted it here, only to have it reverted afterwards.

Do you have a source that mentions the energy crisis yet?

You mean other than the ones I've already provided you with?

Because those of us who believe that there was no energy crisis have some evidence to support that belief.

Your own suppositions about what an energy crisis means?

The laser-powered ships, the holographic ads across the sky, Jake's awesome TV.
Hell, the sheer energy requirements of intersteller travel tell us that if there was an energy crisis (and we still have no evidence of this), it would have been the RDA who caused it!

I do love watching you flounder around blindly in the face of an unambiguous statement of exactly the sort you were just demanding I provide, from a source you specifically endorced.

It's the little things in life, you know?

Does the EU stuff say there is an energy crisis. I honesty don't care, but with all the other information it provides if it does say there is an energy crisis it makes absolutely no logical sense.

No. It doesn't. That's what I've been trying to tell this impenetrable wall of ignorance.

The only mention of an energy crisis is that single sentence in the wiki, which isn't referenced to any source.

It's just a milwank fanfic theory.

And your chosen method is wiki vandalism. The gold standard of honest debate.

[Darth Tedious]

Have a look in the edit history of that wiki.

The sentence in question has, in the past been completely removed (and later re-inserted) multiple times.
Given the level of controversy caused by such a statement, you think someone asking for a citation is an outrageous thing to do?

If you feel that requesting a citation is a dishonest thing to do, it's no wonder you aren't bringing forward any actual evidence.

It seems you need to understand that the wiki is not a source in and of itself. It is a collation of information from other sources. The information in it has to come from the film or supporting materials. That's why wiki articles tend to have references, you see. It's a way of letting us know that shit isn't just made up.

So the question remains, where is this energy crisis mentioned besides the wiki?
What source does it come from?

Where do we find this little tidbit in the canon?

If it isn't just a fan theory, where did it come from?
We're waiting.

BTW, the fact that unobtanium was also needed for viable intersteller flight doesn't really help your cause- it's just another reason why WE DIDN'T NEED THE STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Cesario]

Have a look in the edit history of that wiki.

I linked you to the discussion page.

The sentence in question has, in the past been completely removed (and later re-inserted) multiple times.

Which makes the fact that you thought you could get away with mucking with it all the more ammusing.

Given the level of controversy caused by such a statement, you think someone asking for a citation is an outrageous thing to do?

If you feel that requesting a citation is a dishonest thing to do, it's no wonder you aren't bringing forward any actual evidence.

I think it's a case of moving the goalposts, actually, but it's not as though there was any real expectation of honest debte from you anyway. That's why I'm choosing to be ammused by your antics.

It seems you need to understand that the wiki is not a source in and of itself. It is a collation of information from other sources. The information in it has to come from the film or supporting materials. That's why wiki articles tend to have references, you see. It's a way of letting us know that shit isn't just made up.

So the question remains, where is this energy crisis mentioned besides the wiki?

You mean where is it referenced besides the place you were mocking me for ignoring, stating that it was a perfectly valid source right before I showed it to you?

Yeah, if there was ever going to be a source you were going to accept, ever, one would think the very place you were just insulting me over not using would be it.

So since there's no opportunity for honest debate, I'm going to fall back to the site's "mockery of stupid people" motto.

What source does it come from?

Where do we find this little tidbit in the canon?

If it isn't just a fan theory, where did it come from?
We're waiting.

Go whine to the wiki for deleting your tag. Read over their already present discussion on the cannonicity of that very sentence.

Or just keep pretending you've got an actual argument. I must say that would be the more ammusing option. For me.

BTW, the fact that unobtanium was also needed for viable intersteller flight doesn't really help your cause- it's just another reason why WE DIDN'T NEED THE STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Yes, because antimatter reactors have nothing to do with energy.

[Darth Tedious]

I linked you to the discussion page.

And I pointed out that nowhere on that page does anyone quote an actual source.
The closest anyone comes is this:

I think it is in the ASG where it is explained that there is an energy crisis due to natural resources being mostly depleted, which was the reason to travel to Pandora, which's discovery came in just handy.

They think it was in the ASG. No quotes, no page number, they're just pretty sure.
This is the same editor who has kept insisting that very sentence be left in the wiki, and who feels a citation isn't needed. Apparently they feel, like you do, that you don't need to actually quote sources.

If it is actually in the ASG, perhaps someone can reference find the quote in question?

Actual quotes and page numbers are priceless.

"I think it was in there..." is worthless.

Could you explain why you feel that requesting evidence to back up an assertion is goalpost-shifting?

Oh, WRT your fanfic theory that Grace's research was aimed toward introducing Pandoran plants on Earth:

Although many species slip into new habitats virtually undetected for many years until their numbers expand, others are monitored and regulated carefully from the outset. Known invasive plants and many exotic pests and diseases may end up on government watch lists and legal authority is assigned to federal, state, or local jurisdictions to prevent new introductions and eradicate existing ones.

Such is the case a priori for Pandoran plants and animals if they are ever brought to Earth. Even if they would survive on Earth, their impact on Earth’s environments and biota would be unpredictable until extensive research was conducted. History has shown that even a simple microscopic disease organism introduced to a new susceptible region could wreak havoc on native species as well as humans, so unless the plant has a potential benefit in terms of medicine or bioremdiation, the novelty is probably not worth the risk.

Oh noes, they wanted to make sure they didn't introduce any Pandoran plants on Earth until much more research was done.
That means impact studies, mang. Working out how these plants will interact in our ecosystem.
See, Grace was researching the plants themselves, and their interactions with their own ecosystem. That's why she started figuring out the whole neural net business. That's what the film and supporting material tell us she was researching.
Is there any evidence to support your theory?

You are the one trying to use lack of evidence as evidence.
Your arguments are consistantly using the pattern:
"They didn't say it wasn't happening, therefore it must have been happening."

The energy crisis, the botannical research for restoring Earth's biosphere, the Na'vi treatise...

You are making unfounded assertions without backing up your claims.
In defense of those assertions, you are demanding that your opponents prove the opposite is true (which in each case implies proving a negative).
Even when confronted with evidence to the contrary, you refuse to concede that your fan theories do not fit with the established facts.

EDIT:

Yes, because antimatter reactors have nothing to do with energy.

Do you realise how much fucking energy they were expended with the first return trip to Pandora?
Before intersteller travel, the Earth's energy requirements were orders of magnitude less.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Antimatter reactors by their nature aren't related to net energy production as they produce less energy than it took to create the fuel. They're superbatteries, not power plants.

[Cesario]

I linked you to the discussion page.

And I pointed out that nowhere on that page does anyone quote an actual source.
The closest anyone comes is this:

I think it is in the ASG where it is explained that there is an energy crisis due to natural resources being mostly depleted, which was the reason to travel to Pandora, which's discovery came in just handy.

They think it was in the ASG. No quotes, no page number, they're just pretty sure.
This is the same editor who has kept insisting that very sentence be left in the wiki, and who feels a citation isn't needed. Apparently they feel, like you do, that you don't need to actually quote sources.

If it is actually in the ASG, perhaps someone can reference find the quote in question?

Actual quotes and page numbers are priceless.

"I think it was in there..." is worthless.

Could you explain why you feel that requesting evidence to back up an assertion is goalpost-shifting?

Oh, certainly. It starts when you claim a source is acceptable, in this case the wiki in question. Then when I provide evidence using that source, you decide that the source isn't acceptable after all. The "goalposts" as it were, have been shifted at some point between the agreement that the source is acceptable and the later rejection of the source as insufficient.

Oh, WRT your fanfic theory that Grace's research was aimed toward introducing Pandoran plants on Earth:

Although many species slip into new habitats virtually undetected for many years until their numbers expand, others are monitored and regulated carefully from the outset. Known invasive plants and many exotic pests and diseases may end up on government watch lists and legal authority is assigned to federal, state, or local jurisdictions to prevent new introductions and eradicate existing ones.

Such is the case a priori for Pandoran plants and animals if they are ever brought to Earth. Even if they would survive on Earth, their impact on Earth’s environments and biota would be unpredictable until extensive research was conducted. History has shown that even a simple microscopic disease organism introduced to a new susceptible region could wreak havoc on native species as well as humans, so unless the plant has a potential benefit in terms of medicine or bioremdiation, the novelty is probably not worth the risk.

Oh noes, they wanted to make sure they didn't introduce any Pandoran plants on Earth until much more research was done.
That means impact studies, mang. Working out how these plants will interact in our ecosystem.
See, Grace was researching the plants themselves, and their interactions with their own ecosystem. That's why she started figuring out the whole neural net business. That's what the film and supporting material tell us she was researching.
Is there any evidence to support your theory?

The evidence you just presented?

Oh, you aren't capable of reading your own evidence. I'll just bold it for you. Again.

You are the one trying to use lack of evidence as evidence.
Your arguments are consistantly using the pattern:
"They didn't say it wasn't happening, therefore it must have been happening."

The energy crisis, the botannical research for restoring Earth's biosphere, the Na'vi treatise...

You are making unfounded assertions without backing up your claims.
In defense of those assertions, you are demanding that your opponents prove the opposite is true (which in each case implies proving a negative).
Even when confronted with evidence to the contrary, you refuse to concede that your fan theories do not fit with the established facts.

Blah, blah, blah, whining about "consistent patterns" that are not in any way related to the "consistent patterns" you complained about last time, and ignoring evidence presented.

Your last post was far more entertaining trolling.

Antimatter reactors by their nature aren't related to net energy production as they produce less energy than it took to create the fuel. They're superbatteries, not power plants.

Getting energy into a useable form is a part of resolving an energy crisis. How was this unclear?

[Darth Tedious]

Such is the case a priori for Pandoran plants and animals if they are ever brought to Earth. Even if they would survive on Earth, their impact on Earth’s environments and biota would be unpredictable until extensive research was conducted. History has shown that even a simple microscopic disease organism introduced to a new susceptible region could wreak havoc on native species as well as humans, so unless the plant has a potential benefit in terms of medicine or bioremdiation, the novelty is probably not worth the risk.

Good job bolding two words, there. Read the whole paragraph.
It says that further research would be needed to determine if any plants would be worth bringing back.

That does not prove your fan theory that Grace was conducting said research.
We know that Grace WAS researching the Pandoran ecosystem.
Nowhere do we see any sign that she was researching the feasiblilty of taking Pandoran plants back home, not even a "This plant might be able to grow on Earth" throwaway line.
There is not even a hint to suggest that your fan theory is correct.

Yet again, you make up a theory with no evidence, nothing DIRECTLY contradicts it, and you declare it must therefore be so.

WRT the wiki: I've already said a number of times- the wiki is a great source, when the information in it is sourced.
That's why the pages have reference lists, linking back to actual sources.
Some of them even use direct quotes and page numbers.
Who knew?
Bibliography.

[Cesario]

Such is the case a priori for Pandoran plants and animals if they are ever brought to Earth. Even if they would survive on Earth, their impact on Earth’s environments and biota would be unpredictable until extensive research was conducted. History has shown that even a simple microscopic disease organism introduced to a new susceptible region could wreak havoc on native species as well as humans, so unless the plant has a potential benefit in terms of medicine or bioremdiation, the novelty is probably not worth the risk.

Good job bolding two words, there. Read the whole paragraph.
It says that further research would be needed to determine if any plants would be worth bringing back.

It says that bringing back plants willy nilly for reasons other than medicine or bioremdiation is a bad idea and explains why. What does that tell you about those samples being sent back to earth?

That does not prove your fan theory that Grace was conducting said research.
We know that Grace WAS researching the Pandoran ecosystem.
Nowhere do we see any sign that she was researching the feasiblilty of taking Pandoran plants back home, not even a "This plant might be able to grow on Earth" throwaway line.
There is not even a hint to suggest that your fan theory is correct.

Yet again, you make up a theory with no evidence, nothing DIRECTLY contradicts it, and you declare it must therefore be so.

Except in the stuff you provided right here.

WRT the wiki: I've already said a number of times- the wiki is a great source, when the information in it is sourced.
That's why the pages have reference lists, linking back to actual sources.
Some of them even use direct quotes and page numbers.
Who knew?
Bibliography.

Too bad you couldn't be bothered to use this level of dilligent rigor when you were sourcing your pathetic attempts at proving something about the universe timeline.

After needing to explain what shifting the goalposts means, I almost feel bad for mocking someone with so obvious an impairment. Almost.

[Darth Tedious]

It says that bringing back plants willy nilly for reasons other than medicine or bioremdiation is a bad idea and explains why. What does that tell you about those samples being sent back to earth.

What samples being sent back to Earth?

Where are these samples mentioned?

Provide evidence for your assertion.

There is not even a hint to suggest that your fan theory is correct.

Yet again, you make up a theory with no evidence, nothing DIRECTLY contradicts it, and you declare it must therefore be so.

Except in the stuff you provided right here.

No mention of samples being sent back to Earth =/= samples were being sent back to Earth.

You are continuing to arse-pull fanfic factoids to support your theories.

Show evidence.

[Cesario]

It says that bringing back plants willy nilly for reasons other than medicine or bioremdiation is a bad idea and explains why. What does that tell you about those samples being sent back to earth.

What samples being sent back to Earth?

Where are these samples mentioned?

Provide evidence for your assertion.

There is not even a hint to suggest that your fan theory is correct.

Yet again, you make up a theory with no evidence, nothing DIRECTLY contradicts it, and you declare it must therefore be so.

Except in the stuff you provided right here.

No mention of samples being sent back to Earth =/= samples were being sent back to Earth.

You are continuing to arse-pull fanfic factoids to support your theories.

Show evidence.

You don't get it. You stopped accepting evidence some time ago. You stopped accepting your own evidence some time ago.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Getting energy into a useable form is a part of resolving an energy crisis. How was this unclear?

How is antimatter a usable form in any real scale? Do you think they have antimatter-powered cars? Anything big enough to use antimatter could just take in electricity anyway, unless it's off the grid by nature like a spaceship.

Also, Cesario, if you're really worried about explaining yourself (instead of scoring points) like you were talking to Ryan about earlier, maybe you should take the time out to actually answer questions instead of dodging them constantly. Maybe you feel that since you've done it before you don't have to again, but it takes just as much effort to make a reply dodging a question as it does to answer it.

[Cesario]

Getting energy into a useable form is a part of resolving an energy crisis. How was this unclear?

How is antimatter a usable form in any real scale? Do you think they have antimatter-powered cars? Anything big enough to use antimatter could just take in electricity anyway, unless it's off the grid by nature like a spaceship.

There you go again, thinking you understand the economics of antimatter power better than the people running antimatter power plants.

Also, Cesario, if you're really worried about explaining yourself (instead of scoring points) like you were talking to Ryan about earlier,

Where did I express worry over that, exactly?

maybe you should take the time out to actually answer questions instead of dodging them constantly. Maybe you feel that since you've done it before you don't have to again, but it takes just as much effort to make a reply dodging a question as it does to answer it.

Oh, you think I've dodged something, and you want me to explain it to you here and now rather than forcing you to go back and read the thread where I've already explained it before I apparently decided to dodge it out of frustration with the poor reading comprehension of the people who like to pretend they're actually participating in an argument?

What exactly did you want to know?

[Darth Tedious]

You don't get it. You stopped accepting evidence some time ago. You stopped accepting your own evidence some time ago.

I haven't used the wiki as evidence in support of any of my points.

I've been quoting from Pandorapedia to back up my claims.

It was weemadando who directed you to the wiki's timeline page.
And the relevant information on that page is all very well-referenced.
I mean, look at this reference list:

1 ↑ James Cameron's Avatar: An Activist Survival Guide, page XV
2 ↑ Newspeaker in 2148 says "The Bengal Tiger, extinct for over a century, is making a comeback." Heard in Jake's room in the Earth intro
3 ↑ James Cameron's Avatar: An Activist Survival Guide pg. 11
4 ↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 Calculated by the fact that by the time of the tsunami accident he has been a soldier for around 9 years, joined at the age of 18.
5 ↑ http://www.oscars.org/press/presskits/n ... avatar.pdf pg. 11
6 ↑ Pandorapedia article for Able Ryder.
7 ↑ René Harper only arrived in 2142, and for Grace to have "put ten years" into it, it must have been founded ten years before the massacre in 2152.
8 ↑ Grace stated that he trained for three years.
9 ↑ mentioned on Jake's TV in the extended edition of the film.

Bibliography!
Clearly people have put some work into researching the facts on this page. It isn't just one guy who "thinks it might be from somewhere".


I've never claimed at any point that the wiki itself was a canonical source.

I did say this:

The wiki you referenced earlier seems to have a fair bit of information on the history of humanity on Pandora. There should be no need for speculation.

And I said it because all the relevant facts on that page are quite well referenced and cited to canon EU sources.

But "Have a look in the wiki, you might find something" =/= "The wiki is a canon source"

---

tl;dr - Stop being evasive and present the evidence for your latest theory.

What mention is there of living plant samples being sent back to Earth?

Back up your claims.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

What exactly did you want to know?

The discussion would just go a lot more smoothly if when someone asks you a question you would answer it rather than making the effort of explaining an excuse to not answer it.

[Shroom Man 777]

US MARINES HUT HUT HUT is about as asinine and out of place as making some silly comment about... whatever the Swedish equivalent is.

Do Swedes ritualistically sacrament and venerate their MAREENS HUT HUT HUT OOORAHOOOAH and pollute the medium of science fiction with endless Semper Spacefidelis Uncle Space's Misguided Cyborgs iterations going all pew-pew and engaging in countless rehashed Space Vietnam wars against space insects or space gremlinoids going SQUAWK SQUAWK SQUAWK in space jungles or space haloids?

Turns out there's a rather remarkable concentration of jingoism and militarism and imperialism-loving in certain recognizable areas, and these manifest not only in real-life wars of stupidity, but also in the fiction and media made by those from these certain areas rife with these brands of HUT HUT HUTTERY.

Cause if Swedes do do this in real life, and have infested the genre with craps like this, and also fill message boards with apologisms and might-makes-rightisms and other craps, then instead of "US MAREENS HUT HUT HUT" I'd probably be going "ERIK THE RED VIKING NORDSMEN OOOOODIIIIIIINNNNN!!!!!" with a lot of other folks.



Turns out it's those people whose groups are the mightest in real life who tend to subscribe most to the might-makes-us-right mindset when applied in reality or in fiction.



Anyway, read the original statement with comprehension:

And give the asshole businessman some fancy shmancy military hard-dick machinery, replace the slimey incompetent goons with mustaches for US MAREENS HUT HUT HUT, and you've got people bending over and flip flopping and fellating these guys as SAVIORS OF THE WORLD HARVESTING MIRACLE ROCKS TO SAVE HUMANITY! And making up all sorts of bullshit justifications for them.

Yes. Replace the Saracen raiding parties with their horses and scimitars and red crescents with a bunch of gung-ho soldiers with M1 Abrams and M16s and other things obviously identifiable to some as being very much like those from their tribe or group, and instead of reviling the invaders harassing the townsfolk, the audience would undoubtedly end up flip flopping and supporting those whose likenesses they can identify with, namely these badass militarised cussing one-liner spouting assholes who are obviously defending the universe and saving humanity from those foreign-looking un-industrialized primitive not-human shitbags.

Because the root of the problem is nationalism and not corporatism run amok, clearly.

The root of the problem is the might-makes-us-right they're-not-industrialized-thus-need-to-be-bettered-by-us they're-not-human-for-one mindset that's applicable to either situations and ends up with fuckfaces trying to make half-assed justifications for bullshit situations be it Blackwater and Haliburton or the US Marines and the CIA doing these shits, in real life or in fiction.

It would be the same if it was a corporation, or if it was a philanthropic non-profit murder institution, or if it was a bunch of freedomizing government people waving miniature flags, singing anthems and sucking on the rubber teats of army-issue liquid cheese ration packets.

Dances With The Wolves and The Last Samurai dealt with the same problems, even if there were no corporations in either movie.

Wow, you're really dense, aren't you? His "US MARINES HUT HUT HUT" dig was a dig at US worship of the military in general, not the Marines specifically. Are you seriously thinking that he would have thought it was OK if Quaritch and Sully were Army instead of Marines?

I read it as a dig at the US military itself, not worship of it.

Jesus fucking Christ, he was talking about the way people like Douchebaggio view the movie, Einstein.

Yes.

And besides, the worship of the US military is part of the US military.

(I love how of that entire statement, the only thing Ryan Thunder took exception to was the invocation of the United States Marine Corps.

HUT HUT HUT! )

[PeZook]

We could just let ten billion or so filthy, stinking humans die so we won't have to spend all that energy keeping them alive. Then the remaining 10 billion fitlhy, stinking humans can repeat the process when it turns out they still can't survive in a dead biosphere with their existent resources, and a few more billion people die.

MR. SPACE PRESIDENT, I HAVE A SOLUTION TO OUR ENERGY WOES!

You do? Tell me! Tell me now, Cesario!

Let us build an interstellar starship to go to Alpha Centauri! I think we have a good chance to find a magic rock there that will let us build massive power sources that will feed our starving populace!

Oh my god, Cesario! What a brilliant plan! Come 'ere you, let me give you a big wet kiss!

And the best thing is, to send that starship on its way, we only need to build a huge laser and use the entire output of a gigantic power plant that could power Earth forever!

YOU ARE A GENIUS, CESARIO!

Too bad the antimatter reactors require unobtainium to be constructed on the scales needed.

Oh, so they got the laser to send the first four-kilometre insterstellar starship to Alpha Centauri from leprechauns, then?

[Shroom Man 777]

Too bad the antimatter reactors require unobtainium to be constructed on the scales needed.

Oh, so they got the laser to send the first four-kilometre insterstellar starship to Alpha Centauri from leprechauns, then?

This is a very valid point that I feel I must illustrate in a pictographic graph.



Anyway.


I had a horrible idea.

So Avatar Earth is a horrible place where the very skies are covered with hologram advertisement projections. Like, all the time.

And so there is an energy crisis and they do power rotation, blackouts and the cessation of non-vital energy consuming activities.

The hologram sky-advertisements of one megacity are shut down. There, the night sky is pitch black. Darker than the darkest night. Blacker than the blackest heart. And dotting that midnight expanse of nothing are twinkling twinkling little stars.

And at the sight of these things, which the Earthicans haven't seen before in their hologram-skyed lives, the night sky replete with stars, they freak out in fear. There is pandemonium! There is horror!

THE SKY IS FALLING!

Man, imagine how shitty that would be.

People looking up, seeing no holo-adverts, seeing blackness and twinkling stars and the moon, and instead of feeling wonder or wanderlust or whimsy, they feel discomfited, they feel wrong, as if the night sky will suck them up.

That would suck so much.

What a poor bunch of chuds.