Q vs. Han Solo and Chewbacca

[Darth Wong]

The Q are not truly omnipotent. Quinn explicitly said as much.

Then you lose. So stop whining.

NONE of the beings in Trek are truly omnipotent. Your insistence upon the word is a red herring.

Oh really? Let's see what you wrote just a few posts ago:

If it jumps through space and time like an omnipotent duck, casually cleans planets' atmospheres like an omnipotent duck, blows up stars with crossfire from its weapons like an omnipotent duck and freaking shrinks Voyager to subatomic size like an omnipotent duck, then it probably IS an omnipotent duck.

Red herring, eh? You used the word "omnipotent", and now you suck it down because you were wrong.

Extraordinary powers similar to Q's have been demonstrated by beings who clearly did NOT have access to technology (Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, Wesley Crusher). Also, I am not arguing that the Q do not use ANY technology; clearly, they have weapons of some sort. Do YOU have any reason to believe that the Q are just "ordinary" humanoids who fake ALL of their powers with technology?

The fact that they DO use technology means that it is wrong to assume all of their powers are innate. What part of this do you not understand?

(Note: Apollo and the Prophets may use technology (temple, Orbs) to supplement their powers, but they clearly were not ordinary humanoids. Unless it's possible for a normal person to scatter themself into oblivion against the wind or possess other humanoids and give them glowing eyes and superpowers.)

And no one was arguing that they were completely normal humans, so this is besides the point (besides, you have no idea how much of their capabilities are actually technological; the fact that they can give their powers to ordinary humanoids actually HELPS my case, since by extension, it means their own powers may have been the result of something external to a humanoid form, such as technology).

[Eframepilot]

The fact that they DO use technology means that it is wrong to assume all of their powers are innate.

OK, fine, but the only powers we have seen them use explicitly connected to technology are killing other Q and blowing up stars. Their other powers are very likely innate. Referring to the original topic of the thread, it's very, very, very silly to expect any normal amount of violence to hurt Q. He deliberated goaded Sisko to lay one on him and wasn't hurt at all by the fall, at least not more than a hologram such as the Doctor would be. And Q may have been intimidated by Guinan, but not because she knew kung-fu. Guinan has unknown knowledge of Q and mysterious powers of her own; assuming Q was afraid of Guinan's physical strength is a huge leap of logic. Q has hidden in the void of space and in the warp core; there is no reason to believe his physical form is vulnerable to blasters or ordinary strength.

And no one was arguing that they were completely normal humans, so this is besides the point (besides, you have no idea how much of their capabilities are actually technological; the fact that they can give their powers to ordinary humanoids actually HELPS my case, since by extension, it means their own powers may have been the result of something external to a humanoid form, such as technology).

But we have seen Gary Mitchell and Charlie X (and Wesley, if you accept that he was responsible for his own stunts) gain powers/be granted powers without any technology. Assuming that most Q powers are explicitly tied to technology is needlessly complicated. Your theory about Amanda Rogers is less simple than the straightforward explanation that her powers were innate. If she was recognized by Q technology as a registered user, it would logically be easy for the Q to disconnect her.

[Darth Wong]

OK, fine, but the only powers we have seen them use explicitly connected to technology are killing other Q and blowing up stars. Their other powers are very likely innate. Referring to the original topic of the thread, it's very, very, very silly to expect any normal amount of violence to hurt Q. He deliberated goaded Sisko to lay one on him and wasn't hurt at all by the fall, at least not more than a hologram such as the Doctor would be. And Q may have been intimidated by Guinan, but not because she knew kung-fu. Guinan has unknown knowledge of Q and mysterious powers of her own; assuming Q was afraid of Guinan's physical strength is a huge leap of logic.

No, but it means he has vulnerabilities, since she certainly doesn't have the power to slow down a Borg cube, otherwise her race wouldn't have been forcibly assimilated by them. There are obviously tricks you can use against Q which we're not aware of yet.

Q has hidden in the void of space and in the warp core; there is no reason to believe his physical form is vulnerable to blasters or ordinary strength.

Or that could have been illusions. We've also seen Q imprisoned in a comet which Voyager was able to successfully breach with hand tools.

But we have seen Gary Mitchell and Charlie X (and Wesley, if you accept that he was responsible for his own stunts) gain powers/be granted powers without any technology.

And since we never saw them using any technology, that is a different case than Q, which we HAVE seen using technology.

Assuming that most Q powers are explicitly tied to technology is needlessly complicated. Your theory about Amanda Rogers is less simple than the straightforward explanation that her powers were innate. If she was recognized by Q technology as a registered user, it would logically be easy for the Q to disconnect her.

Bzzzzzt! Sorry, but you lose. In "Deja Q", Q was stripped of his power. It is easy for the Q to disconnect anyone they please. By your own logic, this is more evidence for the technological interpretation.

[SirNitram]

Eframe, you don't get it, do you? Extraordinary abilities like those you claim are, by their very nature, an unknown. Any theory which conforms to the facts and doesn't include such ridiculous unknowns is superior. And claiming Q is using advanced technology to trick and toy with mortals conforms to the facts.

Nevermind that their fear that humans can overcome them helps our case(Technology can be developed, where as humans, as a species, are not supernaturally inclined in Trek), or that the Duck analogy helps our case(What does moving instantly between two points REALLY look like? A transporter), never mind any of this, though.

Put up or shut up. If you have proof they are innate powers, post it.

[Eframepilot]

Put up or shut up. If you have proof they are innate powers, post it.

Your logic is circular. You assume that any explanation that does not involve innate powers is superior to one that does. In a universe where innate powers exist (Charlie X, Gary Mitchell), this is foolish. Just because something is not understood or seems impossible isn't grounds to reject it. Go talk to Nils Bohr.

More relevant to Q vs. Han and Chewbacca: Quinn couldn't die while being a Q. He had been unable to kill himself for hundreds of years (he accidentally started the Vulcan-Romulan Hundred Years War in a suicide attempt, which had to have been thousands of years ago when the Romulans left Vulcan, and wasn't imprisoned until 300 years before the episode, since he was at Woodstock.) If Quinn's powers and "invulnerability" weren't part of his nature, then he could have grabbed a phaser and blown his head off or jumped into a star or black hole. To kill a Q or remove their powers, you need at least assistance from another Q or a Q weapon. Now it could be that Q is hard-wired into a supermachine that only another Q or Q weapon can disconnect him from, but it doesn't matter since nothing Han Solo or Chewbacca could do would ever hurt him.

[Eframepilot]

No, but it means he has vulnerabilities, since she certainly doesn't have the power to slow down a Borg cube, otherwise her race wouldn't have been forcibly assimilated by them. There are obviously tricks you can use against Q which we're not aware of yet.

I agree, but we don't know what those tricks are or how effective they are. Han and Chewie certainly won't know them.

Or that could have been illusions. We've also seen Q imprisoned in a comet which Voyager was able to successfully breach with hand tools.

Quinn had been imprisoned by other Q; there are millions of explanations for why he couldn't escape from a seemingly "ordinary" comet that don't involve rejecting other instances of Q's powers as illusions (especially when he has no reason to create illusions; in "Qpid" he hovers incorporeally in the wall when no one is looking).

And since we never saw them using any technology, that is a different case than Q, which we HAVE seen using technology.

Of course we've seen them use technology. They use the transporter, among other things. So they use tech to do things their powers cannot do (teleport), and Q uses technology for things his powers cannot do (directly kill other Q). Again there is no reason to assume Q's other powers aren't innate.

Bzzzzzt! Sorry, but you lose. In "Deja Q", Q was stripped of his power. It is easy for the Q to disconnect anyone they please. By your own logic, this is more evidence for the technological interpretation.

Welcome to Inconsistency Land. In "True Q", Amanda's only options were (1) not use her powers but still have them, (2) join the Continuum, or (3) death. Having her powers removed was not possible or it would have been considered. The best explanation is that Amanda, being born in an unusual way, had innate powers not removable in any known way that would work on a normal Q.

[SirNitram]

Put up or shut up. If you have proof they are innate powers, post it.

Your logic is circular. You assume that any explanation that does not involve innate powers is superior to one that does. In a universe where innate powers exist (Charlie X, Gary Mitchell), this is foolish. Just because something is not understood or seems impossible isn't grounds to reject it. Go talk to Nils Bohr.

I've not seen this much projection since Darkstar. Nothing in applying Occam's Razor is circular, shit for brains. I like how you snipped everything else, but it doesn't matter. Supernatural powers are the very definition of an unknown, but that won't stop you from clinging to the idea that the bad men are the ones lying, not you.

[Darth Wong]

I agree, but we don't know what those tricks are or how effective they are. Han and Chewie certainly won't know them.

No, but you have no basis to claim that if you take him unawares, he won't be affected by a physical strike. Sisko knocked Q down by sucker-punching him; sure, he didn't KILL or seriously injure him, but the impact of that fist compared to the energy inside a warp core is insignificant, yet it obviously affected him more than the warp core did. If you catch him unawares, you can hurt him.

Quinn had been imprisoned by other Q; there are millions of explanations for why he couldn't escape from a seemingly "ordinary" comet that don't involve rejecting other instances of Q's powers as illusions (especially when he has no reason to create illusions; in "Qpid" he hovers incorporeally in the wall when no one is looking).

I like the rhetorical way you categorize an alternate and perfectly viable explanation as "rejecting" the evidence. Very Darkstar-ish of you.

Welcome to Inconsistency Land. In "True Q", Amanda's only options were (1) not use her powers but still have them, (2) join the Continuum, or (3) death. Having her powers removed was not possible or it would have been considered. The best explanation is that Amanda, being born in an unusual way, had innate powers not removable in any known way that would work on a normal Q.

Bullshit. I present a canon example which destroys your argument and you simply say it's an "inconsistency", ignore it, and restate the argument which it disproves? Holy fuck, are you ever full of shit. Did it ever occur to you that "the Q are obviously lying and have other reasons for their ultimatum" would explain "True Q" better than simply saying "Welcome to Inconsistency land" and throwing "Deja Q" out of the fucking canon?

[Eframepilot]

No, but you have no basis to claim that if you take him unawares, he won't be affected by a physical strike. Sisko knocked Q down by sucker-punching him; sure, he didn't KILL or seriously injure him, but the impact of that fist compared to the energy inside a warp core is insignificant, yet it obviously affected him more than the warp core did. If you catch him unawares, you can hurt him.

See Quinn. Quinn wanted to die. He tried to kill himself. He couldn't do it! So a being with incredible powers (or tech. simulating those powers) can't kill himself, but others without any special powers (or tech) at all can?

I like the rhetorical way you categorize an alternate and perfectly viable explanation as "rejecting" the evidence. Very Darkstar-ish of you.

Whatever. The comet example still proves nothing, as there are many other alternate and perfectly viable explanations for it than yours.

Welcome to Inconsistency Land. In "True Q", Amanda's only options were (1) not use her powers but still have them, (2) join the Continuum, or (3) death. Having her powers removed was not possible or it would have been considered. The best explanation is that Amanda, being born in an unusual way, had innate powers not removable in any known way that would work on a normal Q.

Bullshit. I present a canon example which destroys your argument and you simply say it's an "inconsistency", ignore it, and restate the argument which it disproves? Holy fuck, are you ever full of shit. Did it ever occur to you that "the Q are obviously lying and have other reasons for their ultimatum" would explain "True Q" better than simply saying "Welcome to Inconsistency land" and throwing "Deja Q" out of the fucking canon?

Can you even read? I didn't throw anything out. I reconciled "Deja Q" with "True Q"; Amanda Rogers' powers couldn't be removed because of her unusual birth. Remember, the Q weren't even sure what she was when Q showed up. As for "the Q are obviously lying and have other reasons for their ultimatum", why ARE they lying? Do you have any idea what these "other reasons" are? Didn't think so.

[Eframepilot]

I've not seen this much projection since Darkstar. Nothing in applying Occam's Razor is circular, shit for brains. I like how you snipped everything else, but it doesn't matter. Supernatural powers are the very definition of an unknown, but that won't stop you from clinging to the idea that the bad men are the ones lying, not you.

This is where we agree to disagree. You think any unknown powers should be explained away by other means, no matter how contrived; I accept that unknown powers exist in science-fiction as demonstrated by Mitchell et al. and so are a viable explanation themselves.

[Darth Wong]

See Quinn. Quinn wanted to die. He tried to kill himself. He couldn't do it! So a being with incredible powers (or tech. simulating those powers) can't kill himself, but others without any special powers (or tech) at all can?

Proves the point again. Tech can kill Q, Q himself can't kill Q. Yes, Q is obviously not a normal human since he's immortal, but you can exceed his powers through technology and you can kill a Q with technology. BTW, you haven't addressed the point that he is obviously not as tough if you catch him unawares.

Whatever. The comet example still proves nothing, as there are many other alternate and perfectly viable explanations for it than yours.

Hardly, since I haven't even explained my theory yet. Jumping the gun a bit, aren't you? But since you're obviously not going to provide a workable theory of your own and you're too dumb to see the obvious unless it's spelled out for you, I'll have to go first.

Quinn was imprisoned in a comet which was doped with some kind of substance which blocks his access to whatever device or apparatus gives the Q their powers. That's why he couldn't even break out of a measly chunk of ice while Voyager could easily cut through it; without access to his source of power, he's nothing.

What's your explanation? "Q is super-powered so he can .... mumble uncomfortably ... block the ... super-powers of other Q ... through ... magic ... mumble some more ...?" Oh yeah, that's right. You don't have an explanation; you simply mumble that there must be one. Fine; provide it.

Can you even read? I didn't throw anything out. I reconciled "Deja Q" with "True Q"; Amanda Rogers' powers couldn't be removed because of her unusual birth.

Ah, so she's MORE powerful than a normal Q because she was born through human reproductive processes? What a crock of shit. Yeah, that makes SOOOO much more sense than simply theorizing that the Q had ulterior motives and less than perfect honesty

Remember, the Q weren't even sure what she was when Q showed up.

Yes, that's right. So much for Q omniscience too. Thanks for the reminder.

As for "the Q are obviously lying and have other reasons for their ultimatum", why ARE they lying? Do you have any idea what these "other reasons" are? Didn't think so.

Q dishonesty does not require any new phenomenon, you idiot. A super-powered Q who can't be cut off from their powers while a regular Q can, however, is a new phenomenon. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you, not me. The theory that they were simply lying does not require proof, since it is a perfectly workable theory that does not introduce any new and stupid phenomena like yours does.

PS. Q wanted human DNA to improve their species. What does that tell you about them, dumb-ass?

[Patrick Ogaard]

Quinn could not die because the Q specifically installed safeguards against Quinn killing himself, safeguards that produced vicious misdirections of Quinn's intent. Once Quinn was allowed to give up his powers, Q was quite capable of providing Quinn with a poison that Quinn then used to kill himself. Quinn was likely quite vocal in announcing his initial intention to kill himself, causing a major stir and prompting the Continuum as a whole to set up appropriate blocks that would make it virtually impossible for Quinn to do himself in. Guarding against Quinn's goading others into killing him might be as simple as the monitoring AI transporting Quinn away from any apparent danger.

In a certain way, Quinn's desire to leave the Continuum and just die, countered by the Continuum's scandalized hysteria, is very reminiscent of the reaction Sisko had to the Starfleet officers who joined the Maquis: no one leaves paradise, and if we have to, we'll chain you to a tree and beat you until you're happy living in paradise.

[Ted C]

Welcome to Inconsistency Land. In "True Q", Amanda's only options were (1) not use her powers but still have them, (2) join the Continuum, or (3) death. Having her powers removed was not possible or it would have been considered. The best explanation is that Amanda, being born in an unusual way, had innate powers not removable in any known way that would work on a normal Q.

Correction: Those were the only options offered by the Q continuum. The events of "Deja Q" demonstrate that it is possible for the continuum to deprive an individual Q of his or her powers. The lady Q in "The Q and the Grey" was also bereft of powers, and that didn't even appear to be caused by the collective actions of other Q.

The simplest explanation for "True Q" is that the continuum offered her a limited set of options in order to railroad her into joining the continuum.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

You guys are going under the assumption that Q's corporeal death would mean Q's ultimate death. That's not a bet I'd care to take facing a being like that. Even if Q isn't completely omnipotent (as opposed to just operating under certain restrictions by assuming human form) he's still close enough to presumably take "playing rough" to a wholly unprecedented level should the situation take that flavor.

[SirNitram]

I've not seen this much projection since Darkstar. Nothing in applying Occam's Razor is circular, shit for brains. I like how you snipped everything else, but it doesn't matter. Supernatural powers are the very definition of an unknown, but that won't stop you from clinging to the idea that the bad men are the ones lying, not you.

This is where we agree to disagree. You think any unknown powers should be explained away by other means, no matter how contrived; I accept that unknown powers exist in science-fiction as demonstrated by Mitchell et al. and so are a viable explanation themselves.

Only when there is no other theory supported by evidence. And there is evidence the Q require technology. So please prove it already. Shit, even in High Fantasy there are con-men who pretend to be wizards, should we apply your assbackwards thoughts so that they all magically become wizards?

[Eframepilot]

Proves the point again. Tech can kill Q, Q himself can't kill Q. Yes, Q is obviously not a normal human since he's immortal, but you can exceed his powers through technology and you can kill a Q with technology. BTW, you haven't addressed the point that he is obviously not as tough if you catch him unawares.

Okay, you can exceed his powers by using super-duper technology. Fine.

About not being as tough if you catch him unawares: So I can kill Quinn with a sniper rifle but he can't kill himself by any method at all? That makes absolutely no sense. Sisko punched Q in a Q-created (illusionary?) boxing ring while Q was begging Sisko to sock him. This knocked Q down. We don't know if his body was hurt; in fact we don't even know if it was his real body. Would an incredibly powerful being interact with mortals who could kill him without some "safety protocol" to prevent serious harm? Given Quinn's inability to die without assistance, it is MUCH more logical to assume that Q's normal form can be knocked around without threatening his life at all.

About Q's powers being technology-based to some unknown degree: I concede. The entire issue is too subjective to debate by the standards of this forum when all of the Q are masters of illusion and lie whenever they want. Outside the scope of debate, though, Q is obviously intended by the writers to have mysterious magical powers.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I've not seen this much projection since Darkstar. Nothing in applying Occam's Razor is circular, shit for brains. I like how you snipped everything else, but it doesn't matter. Supernatural powers are the very definition of an unknown, but that won't stop you from clinging to the idea that the bad men are the ones lying, not you.

This is where we agree to disagree. You think any unknown powers should be explained away by other means, no matter how contrived; I accept that unknown powers exist in science-fiction as demonstrated by Mitchell et al. and so are a viable explanation themselves.

Only when there is no other theory supported by evidence. And there is evidence the Q require technology. So please prove it already. Shit, even in High Fantasy there are con-men who pretend to be wizards, should we apply your assbackwards thoughts so that they all magically become wizards?

Eh?! There's evidence to support the idea that the powers of the Q are based on technology? Would someone be so kind as to point this evidence out?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I've not seen this much projection since Darkstar. Nothing in applying Occam's Razor is circular, shit for brains. I like how you snipped everything else, but it doesn't matter. Supernatural powers are the very definition of an unknown, but that won't stop you from clinging to the idea that the bad men are the ones lying, not you.

This is where we agree to disagree. You think any unknown powers should be explained away by other means, no matter how contrived; I accept that unknown powers exist in science-fiction as demonstrated by Mitchell et al. and so are a viable explanation themselves.

Only when there is no other theory supported by evidence. And there is evidence the Q require technology. So please prove it already. Shit, even in High Fantasy there are con-men who pretend to be wizards, should we apply your assbackwards thoughts so that they all magically become wizards?

Eh?! There's evidence to support the idea that the powers of the Q are based on technology? Would someone be so kind as to point this evidence out?

[Ted C]

Eh?! There's evidence to support the idea that the powers of the Q are based on technology? Would someone be so kind as to point this evidence out?

The Q specifically described using weapons against each other in "The Q and the Gray", and they were able to give such weapons to members of Voyager's crew.

[Eframepilot]

Eh?! There's evidence to support the idea that the powers of the Q are based on technology? Would someone be so kind as to point this evidence out?

The Q specifically described using weapons against each other in "The Q and the Gray", and they were able to give such weapons to members of Voyager's crew.

Of course that doesn't mean that all their powers are based on technology. Even Galactus, with the Power Cosmic, has the Ultimate Nullifier.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Eh?! There's evidence to support the idea that the powers of the Q are based on technology? Would someone be so kind as to point this evidence out?

The Q specifically described using weapons against each other in "The Q and the Gray", and they were able to give such weapons to members of Voyager's crew.

They also stated, IIRC, that the humans of Voyager were being presented with an interpretation of the Continuum that was "dumbed down" (not their words, but describes the concept) so that they could function in it. Since the Continuum was being interpreted from a human perspective, they Voyager crewmembers could just as easily have been wielding ideas metaphorically interpreted as weapons. I'm sure that was made plain in the episode.

[Ted C]

Of course that doesn't mean that all their powers are based on technology. Even Galactus, with the Power Cosmic, has the Ultimate Nullifier.

I never said they were. Quite frankly, the exact source of their powers isn't particularly relevant unless you can demonstrate a way to attack it. Who cares if there's some kind of central power source somewhere in the Q continuum; it's not like the Empire can target it with a Death Star blast.

I'm not actually against you on the main point; I don't see Han Solo killing Q with a surprise blaster bolt. He might destroy a physical body that Q created, but I doubt if that would be a major problem for Q unless he had somehow been stripped of his powers. If Han and Chewie lack the knowledge and means to block Q's powers, he'll hand them their heads.

[Eframepilot]

Only when there is no other theory supported by evidence. And there is evidence the Q require technology. So please prove it already. Shit, even in High Fantasy there are con-men who pretend to be wizards, should we apply your assbackwards thoughts so that they all magically become wizards?

No, but if you meet someone who claims to be a wizard and demonstrates powers, you assume he IS a wizard, not a con-man (depending of the ratio of real wizards to con-men, of course). The Q require technology for some of their powers, but it's a leap of logic to claim they rely on it for all of their powers. Hell, Darth Wong agrees that the Q are not entirely humanoid fakers. (Yeah, yeah, blatant appeal to authority but I don't care)

[Ted C]

They also stated, IIRC, that the humans of Voyager were being presented with an interpretation of the Continuum that was "dumbed down" (not their words, but describes the concept) so that they could function in it. Since the Continuum was being interpreted from a human perspective, they Voyager crewmembers could just as easily have been wielding ideas metaphorically interpreted as weapons. I'm sure that was made plain in the episode.

In their interpetation of the continuum, a Q weapon capable of destroying a star looked like a musket. Nonetheless, it was a "weapon" that the Q could give and take back, and the Q spoke of using weapons themselves, not of using their "powers" to kill each other.

Also of note was the loss of the female Q's powers. Somehow she lost them while she was on Voyager, but she regained them once she got back into the Q continuum. This suggests that her powers have an external source which she was unable to access from outside the continuum because of the hostilities.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I feel it necessary to restate this very clearly: in any and every example of superbeings who displayed "technology", the items in questions serve the dedicated purpose of interaction with mortal humans. Apollo's Tempe, The Orbs of the Prophets, and the "weapons" seen in the Q Continuum (the fact that we see the Q Continuum at all, for that matter) all support this.