Fury at ultra-Orthodox Jews after girl abused

[Pelranius]

What is it with people using their kids as props in this disgusting protests? The Phelps do it, and so does HAMAS and that nutjob Hindu group in India whose name I forgot.

[Broomstick]

The difference is that natural human bigotry can be reduced/eliminated through familiarization, integration, and learning. Jewish people have been told for about 2000 years that they are better than everyone, the chosen of mankind.

Uh... what?

If you're talking about what Jewish people say about themselves it's closer to five thousand years of that. If you're talking about the Christian world... no. More like 2,000 years of calling them Christ-killers and accusing them of poisoning wells and mixing blood into matzos.

Which, really, makes them no different than any other group that feels themselves superior to everyone else, in other words, exactly like everyone else.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

The difference is that natural human bigotry can be reduced/eliminated through familiarization, integration, and learning. Jewish people have been told for about 2000 years that they are better than everyone, the chosen of mankind.

Uh... what?

If you're talking about what Jewish people say about themselves it's closer to five thousand years of that. If you're talking about the Christian world... no. More like 2,000 years of calling them Christ-killers and accusing them of poisoning wells and mixing blood into matzos.

Which, really, makes them no different than any other group that feels themselves superior to everyone else, in other words, exactly like everyone else.

Well excuse me I forgotten the extent of Jewish history in that regard. Obviously some Christian groups hate the Jews while others rabidly defend (more to the former than the later).

I still wouldn't say everyone else though. "Everyone else" doesn't have their own country given to them by the world at large because they were a "special needs" ethnic group. "Everyone else" doesn't have a staunch ally in the most powerful nation on earth. Everyone else doesn't follow a religion that says they're the best in the world (I mean assuming you follow mainstream interpretations of biblical christian and islamic literature where "everyone who believe/has faith is saved") and is the de facto state religion of aforementioned country.

[Darth Wong]

The difference is that natural human bigotry can be reduced/eliminated through familiarization, integration, and learning. Jewish people have been told for about 2000 years that they are better than everyone, the chosen of mankind.

Uh... what?

If you're talking about what Jewish people say about themselves it's closer to five thousand years of that. If you're talking about the Christian world... no. More like 2,000 years of calling them Christ-killers and accusing them of poisoning wells and mixing blood into matzos.

Which, really, makes them no different than any other group that feels themselves superior to everyone else, in other words, exactly like everyone else.

No, not every group on this planet thinks they were specially chosen by a divine being to be superior to everyone else. There are plenty of conquerors who feel they were fit to rule as individuals, but they didn't necessarily do it out of a sense of racial superiority. Genghis Khan conquered because he felt he was destined to rule all under heaven, not because he thought Mongols were the master race. Julius Caesar conquered for wealth and glory and power, not because he thought romans were the master race.

And yes, I know, I'm using the Nazi term "master race", which is ironic because I'm talking about Jews. But it's apt because of their religious ideology.

[eyl]

I still wouldn't say everyone else though. "Everyone else" doesn't have their own country given to them by the world at large because they were a "special needs" ethnic group.

Not really quite how it happened.

"Everyone else" doesn't have a staunch ally in the most powerful nation on earth. Everyone else doesn't follow a religion that says they're the best in the world (I mean assuming you follow mainstream interpretations of biblical christian and islamic literature where "everyone who believe/has faith is saved") and is the de facto state religion of aforementioned country.

Without getting into the subtleties of the whole "chosen people" thing (which isn't as clear-cut an assertion of superiority as you're describing it, especially as even Jews have significant differences of opinion of what it means), are you arguing that saying "everyone who doesn't believe what we do will be tortured for eternity" is actually better?

[Broomstick]

No, not every group on this planet thinks they were specially chosen by a divine being to be superior to everyone else. There are plenty of conquerors who feel they were fit to rule as individuals, but they didn't necessarily do it out of a sense of racial superiority. Genghis Khan conquered because he felt he was destined to rule all under heaven, not because he thought Mongols were the master race.

I'm not sure what difference it makes in the end if Ghenghis Khan conquered because he believed he, individually, was chosen to be master vs. a group thinking that. You still wind up with a lot of death and destruction either way.

And yes, I know, I'm using the Nazi term "master race", which is ironic because I'm talking about Jews. But it's apt because of their religious ideology.

It's not like every Jew in the world actually believes that. There's a joke that floats around the Jewish community at large that essentially comes down to "If we Jews are God's chosen people, why is he always choosing to have horrible shit happen to us?", recognizing that for the past few thousand years what the Jews have been chosen for is largely being treated like shit by other people. After all, if they're so damn special why did god let their country be taken away and kick them out to wander the world as (at best) second class citizens and despised minority?

One of the weird things about Judaism is that it's possible to be an atheist and a Jew at the same time. It's both an ethnicity and a religion, and a lot of Jews are aren't very religious at all. The vast majority of Jews really aren't interested in imposing Judaism on anyone else, they just want to be left alone to do their own thing. The custom of using a shabbos goy actually depends on others NOT keeping the sabbath in the Jewish manner. The fanatical ultra-orthodox crowd imposing their behavior on everyone else are a minority and aberration in the greater Jewish world.

What I can't understand is why these nutballs were given exemption from military service and subsidies for full time Torah studies. It's not like Torah studies disappeared during several thousands years of non-subsidized studies. If they want full time perpetual students of that they can damn well raise the money within their own communities. I'm sure there's some sort of reason historically, whether it's sensible or not, but setting them up as a privileged class within Israel was just stupid.

[eyl]

It's not like every Jew in the world actually believes that. There's a joke that floats around the Jewish community at large that essentially comes down to "If we Jews are God's chosen people, why is he always choosing to have horrible shit happen to us?", recognizing that for the past few thousand years what the Jews have been chosen for is largely being treated like shit by other people. After all, if they're so damn special why did god let their country be taken away and kick them out to wander the world as (at best) second class citizens and despised minority?

Like I said, even among religious Jews, you can find a lot of interpretations of what "chosen people" means, very few of which will be along the lines of "master race".

Of course, the haredim in the OP generally consider themselves to be superior to other Jews (including other haredi groups, in some cases), let alone gentiles.

What I can't understand is why these nutballs were given exemption from military service and subsidies for full time Torah studies. It's not like Torah studies disappeared during several thousands years of non-subsidized studies. If they want full time perpetual students of that they can damn well raise the money within their own communities. I'm sure there's some sort of reason historically, whether it's sensible or not, but setting them up as a privileged class within Israel was just stupid.

From what I understand, it began with a compromise shortly before the state was established. Ben Gurion wanted all the Jewish groups in Palestine to present a united front. To get the ultra-Orthodox aboard, he offered to exempt yeshiva students from military service (I don't know if the subsidies were also proposed then) in order to allow them to study Torah, to help reestablish the "world" of study which had been recently devastated by the Holocaust. I don't think anyone at the time , including the haredim, expected the phenomenon to reach the dimensions it has today.

Over time, the ultra-Orthodox parties became sort of kingmakers in our political system Israel has a multiplicity of parties. I don't believe any single party has ever held over 60 Knesset seats, so there is always a coalition - and because the haredi party's demands were usually on stuff for their constituents, rather than things which affected Israel as a whole, and because they (the Ashkenazi haredim especially) often didn't want ministerial seats (so as not to appear to identify with the Zionist state too closely) they were "cheap" Knesset chairs and formed apart of almost every coalition. As a result, they've managed to amass quite a few privileges for their constituents.

Part of the problem is also that over time, it's become the highest calling for haredi men to study Torah full-time. This has lead to phenomenon like men hiding the fact that they're working from their own parents (or in-laws). It's based on the hisotircal model where you had yeshiva students studying full-time and being supported by their communities (as well as the haredi population of Palestine being largely supported by donations from abroad*), but the problem with that model is that those yeshiva students were only the best and brightest of a given community (or more often, several communities), not all the men therein.

*which continues today, to some extent.

EDIT - regarding this:

One of the weird things about Judaism is that it's possible to be an atheist and a Jew at the same time. It's both an ethnicity and a religion, and a lot of Jews are aren't very religious at all. The vast majority of Jews really aren't interested in imposing Judaism on anyone else, they just want to be left alone to do their own thing. The custom of using a shabbos goy actually depends on others NOT keeping the sabbath in the Jewish manner. The fanatical ultra-orthodox crowd imposing their behavior on everyone else are a minority and aberration in the greater Jewish world.

Since Judaism isn't a universal religion in the sense Christianity or Islam are (that is, Judaism doesn't require the entire world to be Jewish, it primarily concerns itself with the Jewish people), they're only interested in imposing their behavior on other Jews. They're not usually interested in what non-Jews do, except as it affects Jews; potentially the haredim can get along better with gentiles than with other Jews.

[Broomstick]

I disagree - in the 1990's the ultra-orthodox in Rogers Park, Chicago attempted to impose sabbath driving bans in their area not just for Jews but for everyone. There comes a point where it stops being just about them and they want to expand their laws to all. They don't get along with neighboring gentiles because they refuse to. The men won't speak to gentile women, even those in positions such as the police. The women won't speak to gentile men. They avoid patronizing any business that isn't U-O owned and operated. They are even more standoffish than the Amish who, while also isolationists, at least respond in a polite and friendly manner to outsiders passing through their neighborhood, and when passing through someone else's neighborhood. U-O's expect to be accommodated instantly and completely everywhere, and become quite rude and disruptive when this is not done. They make no allowances that others many not be aware of the customs, indeed, asking questions of them in my experience is usually met with sneers and being told you're ignorant. When they will not even explain what their needs/wants/desires/requirements are when asked, but expect others to just know, they are not going to be liked or, very likely, given any respect.

[eyl]

I disagree - in the 1990's the ultra-orthodox in Rogers Park, Chicago attempted to impose sabbath driving bans in their area not just for Jews but for everyone. There comes a point where it stops being just about them and they want to expand their laws to all. They don't get along with neighboring gentiles because they refuse to. The men won't speak to gentile women, even those in positions such as the police. The women won't speak to gentile men. They avoid patronizing any business that isn't U-O owned and operated. They are even more standoffish than the Amish who, while also isolationists, at least respond in a polite and friendly manner to outsiders passing through their neighborhood, and when passing through someone else's neighborhood. U-O's expect to be accommodated instantly and completely everywhere, and become quite rude and disruptive when this is not done. They make no allowances that others many not be aware of the customs, indeed, asking questions of them in my experience is usually met with sneers and being told you're ignorant. When they will not even explain what their needs/wants/desires/requirements are when asked, but expect others to just know, they are not going to be liked or, very likely, given any respect.

Which is where the qualifier "so long as it doesn't affect Jews" (themselves, specifically) comes in. They didn't want to expand the bans outside their areas, did they?

[Broomstick]

If the area in question had been wholly owned by the Jews that might have been one thing, but we don't have that sort of Jewish ghetto in Chicago. Roping off their special areas would have, of necessity, included gentiles as well, both in adjacent buildings and within multi-unit buildings. Last time I looked it up, Rogers Park had something like 150+ different ethnic varieties within its border, absolutely no one constitutes a majority there whether you consider the neighborhood as a whole or even block by block. They were wanting to rope off an area and impose their religious laws on everyone within that area, Jewish or not.

One of the streets they wanted to block off and shut down on Saturdays was Touhy Avenue, a major east-west thoroughfare in the area. Seems they didn't like gentiles driving past their synagogue on the sabbath. Well, the road was there first, maybe they shouldn't have built their synagogue, mikvah, community center, etc. along that road if they found that Saturday traffic so disturbing, but shutting down every other business along several blocks was just not going to happen.

[edaw1982]

It's both an ethnicity and a religion,

At the risk of derailing the thread somewhat, but how can someone be both a religion and a race?

Why I'm a Member of the Christian race!

I want to convert to Black!

...comes off as a little daft to me.

Besides if 'Jew' was the race wouldn't the shrieks of opression be 'Antijew' instead of 'Anti-semite' (which would imply that the 'Traditional Jewish-practicing-race-of-people-who-escaped-from-Egypt-etcetera' were "Semites" practicing "Judaism" as a religion, kind of like how someone can be any type of race and convert to Islam, practicing it as a religion?

[edaw1982]

I disagree - in the 1990's the ultra-orthodox in Rogers Park, Chicago attempted to impose sabbath driving bans in their area not just for Jews but for everyone. There comes a point where it stops being just about them and they want to expand their laws to all. They don't get along with neighboring gentiles because they refuse to. The men won't speak to gentile women, even those in positions such as the police. The women won't speak to gentile men. They avoid patronizing any business that isn't U-O owned and operated. They are even more standoffish than the Amish who, while also isolationists, at least respond in a polite and friendly manner to outsiders passing through their neighborhood, and when passing through someone else's neighborhood. U-O's expect to be accommodated instantly and completely everywhere, and become quite rude and disruptive when this is not done. They make no allowances that others many not be aware of the customs, indeed, asking questions of them in my experience is usually met with sneers and being told you're ignorant. When they will not even explain what their needs/wants/desires/requirements are when asked, but expect others to just know, they are not going to be liked or, very likely, given any respect.

The sad thing is, reading that. If the U-O's were as arrogant in the past, say...in Germany post WWI. I can see how it was easy for Chancellor Hitler to rally a hate-on against them.
The dickishness of a few ruining it for the more moderate majority. Isn't that always the way of things?

[bobalot]

I disagree - in the 1990's the ultra-orthodox in Rogers Park, Chicago attempted to impose sabbath driving bans in their area not just for Jews but for everyone. There comes a point where it stops being just about them and they want to expand their laws to all. They don't get along with neighboring gentiles because they refuse to. The men won't speak to gentile women, even those in positions such as the police. The women won't speak to gentile men. They avoid patronizing any business that isn't U-O owned and operated. They are even more standoffish than the Amish who, while also isolationists, at least respond in a polite and friendly manner to outsiders passing through their neighborhood, and when passing through someone else's neighborhood. U-O's expect to be accommodated instantly and completely everywhere, and become quite rude and disruptive when this is not done. They make no allowances that others many not be aware of the customs, indeed, asking questions of them in my experience is usually met with sneers and being told you're ignorant. When they will not even explain what their needs/wants/desires/requirements are when asked, but expect others to just know, they are not going to be liked or, very likely, given any respect.

The sad thing is, reading that. If the U-O's were as arrogant in the past, say...in Germany post WWI. I can see how it was easy for Chancellor Hitler to rally a hate-on against them.
The dickishness of a few ruining it for the more moderate majority. Isn't that always the way of things?

I doubt that. Virulent anti-Semitism has been around for centuries.

[K. A. Pital]

This reads more like a scene out of Iran than out of Israel.

I'm not sure why religious fundamentalism in Israel should be aprior considered any more "civilized" than that in Iran. Outside of the Western propaganda that Israel is the only civilized nation of the Middle East and all that.

[Broomstick]

It's both an ethnicity and a religion,

At the risk of derailing the thread somewhat, but how can someone be both a religion and a race?

I didn't say "race" I said "ethnicity". It's a subtle difference, but Jews come in all races - there are black Jews (the Falashim) and Asian Jews as well as the better known European and Middle-Eastern Jews.

It's an ethnicity because social isolation has resulted in certain traits being more common in Jews than in the larger groups in which the diaspora are embedded, even down the frequency of certain genes (see Cohen model haplotype). Also, because the larger societies in which they live have so often treated them as a separate group. Thus one can be of "Jewish descent" without ever having practiced the religion. Under the Nazis, having a Jewish grandparent was enough to have you labeled a Jew and sent to the camps.

True, anyone can convert to being a Jew in the religious sense, not to mention the usual barbarity of things like rape, which is no doubt how Jews come to resemble the people they live among after enough time goes by, but the communities into which the newcomers enter are nonetheless of mostly common descent from a Middle-Eastern tribe.

You are correct that most of the time religion and ethnicity do not overlap, but Jews are an exception. There are probably others as well, and it was more common in the past where nations and tribes had their own gods, but Jews are a large and widespread group and so are pretty well known.

Besides if 'Jew' was the race wouldn't the shrieks of opression be 'Antijew' instead of 'Anti-semite' (which would imply that the 'Traditional Jewish-practicing-race-of-people-who-escaped-from-Egypt-etcetera' were "Semites" practicing "Judaism" as a religion, kind of like how someone can be any type of race and convert to Islam, practicing it as a religion?

I've heard "anti-Jew" - haven't you?

Yes, one can convert to Judaism, but unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism does not seek converts. Actually, the tradition is to discourage them, at least initially, because Jews just aren't interested in converting the world. That's a significant difference that results in Christianity and Islam being divorced from ethnicity.

[K. A. Pital]

What about the atheist, etc. Jews? Religion and ethnicity overlap only partially.

[Ultonius]

The Amish, Old Order Mennonites, and other 'Plain' Anabaptist groups tend to be mostly ethnically German: in the case of the Amish either 'Pennsylvania German', with ancestors from Southern Germany, or Swiss German. However, there are cases of interracial adoption. In 2010, the only survivors of a Mennonite family from Kentucky whose van had collided with a lorry were two young boys adopted from Guatemala, and there has apparently been an informal program where babies (often black) born to mothers in the Pennsylvania prison system have been placed with Mennonite foster families, some of whom have ended up adopting them permanently.

[Broomstick]

Yes, that's part of it - one can be an atheist AND a Jew at the same time. "Religiously" atheist and ethnically a Jew.

[Dominus Atheos]

For those that don't know, the name "Jew" comes from their religion "Judaism", which in turn comes from the "Kingdom of Judah. That kingdom got conquered by the Romans who named the region "Judea". So the name Jew refers to both the religion practiced by the Kingdom of Judah and the people from the region Judea.

[edaw1982]

Anti-Jew? I've never heard it used before; at least not outside of Forum-context.
Certainly not on the news or in conversation.
...The more you know; and knowing is half the battle as they say.

I didn't know about being Athiest and Jewish, I just thought it was a case of 'not-really-practicing-it-that-much' kind of like how you can be a 'Christian-American' but only go to Church on Christmas (and maybe Easter)....and only every Sunday but only because your parents made you.

But as one can be Jewish but not activly practicing except for a few ceremonies; ie: Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, the smashing the glasses and sitting on the chairs being carried around for your wedding, and going to Temple on Saturdays....but every other time one's "Jewishness" doesn't play much of a part...except maybe not having bacon with your eggs or a nice ham sandwich.

By the by, where did the 'Jewish Mother' cliche come from? Aren't "Italian Mothers" and "Greek Mothers" covered as much by the "overbearing Clannish You-will-do-as-I-tell-you-or-I-will-guilt-trip-the-hell-out-of-you Matriarch" sterotype?
I know 'Everybody Loves Raymond' is a TV show, but hell most cliches come from memes like TV and other media. And there has to be *some* truth to cliches for them to become prevalent enough to be cliches.
If not for the fact that the characters identify themselves as Italians, you'd be peg Marie Barone as a cliched Jewish Momma, what with her grasp of passive-aggressiveness.

[Thanas]

No, not every group on this planet thinks they were specially chosen by a divine being to be superior to everyone else. There are plenty of conquerors who feel they were fit to rule as individuals, but they didn't necessarily do it out of a sense of racial superiority. Genghis Khan conquered because he felt he was destined to rule all under heaven, not because he thought Mongols were the master race. Julius Caesar conquered for wealth and glory and power, not because he thought romans were the master race.

And yes, I know, I'm using the Nazi term "master race", which is ironic because I'm talking about Jews. But it's apt because of their religious ideology.

Actually, Julius Caesar very well thought the Romans were the "master race", inherently blessed by the gods and destined to rule the world due to the virtue of being Romans. And like the current jews, you could gain membership regardless of how you looked.

This reads more like a scene out of Iran than out of Israel.

I'm not sure why religious fundamentalism in Israel should be aprior considered any more "civilized" than that in Iran. Outside of the Western propaganda that Israel is the only civilized nation of the Middle East and all that.

I think you totally misread my quote expressing disbelief that this is happening in a democracy with alleged western-style values among Israelis.

[NecronLord]

Is the Israeli government so useless that it can't summon the werewithal to put this down?

Surely it would be simple; you spit on someone, or otherwise conduct an act of religiously motivated persecution: No scholarship subsidy for you any more. And for that matter, if possible throw them straight in the IDF conscript brigades.

[Broken]

From what I read recently, I think it was in a New York Times article, the early Israeli government gave the ultra-Orthodox their special exceptions and subsidies initially because they thought that all they were doing was providing a dignified end to the ultra-Orthodox community. After the horrors of the Holocaust, they simply didn't expect the Ultra-Orthodox to survive more then another generation. Instead, they prosper and decades of pandering for the UO votes has resulted in elements of this community expecting everything and everyone to obey their rules.

Edit: here is the nytimes article

New York Times

Israelis Facing a Seismic Rift Over Role of Women

JERUSALEM — In the three months since the Israeli Health Ministry awarded a prize to a pediatrics professor for her book on hereditary diseases common to Jews, her experience at the awards ceremony has become a rallying cry.

The professor, Channa Maayan, knew that the acting health minister, who is ultra-Orthodox, and other religious people would be in attendance. So she wore a long-sleeve top and a long skirt. But that was hardly enough.

Not only did Dr. Maayan and her husband have to sit separately, as men and women were segregated at the event, but she was instructed that a male colleague would have to accept the award for her because women were not permitted on stage.

Though shocked that this was happening at a government ceremony, Dr. Maayan bit her tongue. But others have not, and her story is entering the pantheon of secular anger building as a battle rages in Israel for control of the public space between the strictly religious and everyone else.

At a time when there is no progress on the Palestinian dispute, Israelis are turning inward and discovering that an issue they had neglected — the place of the ultra-Orthodox Jews — has erupted into a crisis.

And it is centered on women.

“Just as secular nationalism and socialism posed challenges to the religious establishment a century ago, today the issue is feminism,” said Moshe Halbertal, a professor of Jewish philosophy at Hebrew University. “This is an immense ideological and moral challenge that touches at the core of life, and just as it is affecting the Islamic world, it is the main issue that the rabbis are losing sleep over.”

The list of controversies grows weekly: Organizers of a conference last week on women’s health and Jewish law barred women from speaking from the podium, leading at least eight speakers to cancel; ultra-Orthodox men spit on an 8-year-old girl whom they deemed immodestly dressed; the chief rabbi of the air force resigned his post because the army declined to excuse ultra-Orthodox soldiers from attending events where female singers perform; protesters depicted the Jerusalem police commander as Hitler on posters because he instructed public bus lines with mixed-sex seating to drive through ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods; vandals blacked out women’s faces on Jerusalem billboards.

Public discourse in Israel is suddenly dominated by a new, high-toned Hebrew phrase, “hadarat nashim,” or the exclusion of women. The term is everywhere in recent weeks, rather like the way the phrase “male chauvinism” emerged decades ago in the United States.

All of this seems anomalous to most people in a country where five young women just graduated from the air force’s prestigious pilots course and a woman presides over the Supreme Court.

But each side in this dispute is waging a vigorous public campaign.

The New Israel Fund, which advocates for equality and democracy, organized singalongs and concerts featuring women in Jerusalem and put up posters of women’s faces under the slogan, “Women should be seen and heard.” The Israel Medical Association asserted last week that its members should boycott events that exclude women from speaking on stages.

Religious authorities said liberal groups were waging a war of hatred against a pious sector that wanted only to be left in peace.

That sector, the black-clad ultra-Orthodox, is known in Israel as Haredim, meaning those who tremble before God. It comprises many groups with distinct approaches to liturgy as well as to coat length, hat style, beard and side locks and different hair coverings for women. Among them are the Hasidim of European origin as well as those from Middle Eastern countries who are represented by the political party Shas.

As a group, the ultra-Orthodox are, at best, ambivalent about the Israeli state, which they consider insufficiently religious and premature in its founding because the Messiah has not yet arrived. Over the decades the Haredim angrily demonstrated against state practices like allowing buses to run on the Sabbath, and most believed the state would not survive.

The feeling was mutual. The original Haredi communities in Europe were decimated in the Holocaust, and when Israel’s founding prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, offered subsidies and army exemptions to the few in Israel then, he thought he was providing the group with a dignified funeral.

“Most Israelis at the time assumed the Haredim would die off in one generation,” said Jonathan Rosenblum, a Haredi writer.

Instead, they have multiplied, joined government coalitions and won subsidies and exemptions for children, housing and Torah study. They now number a million, a mostly poor community in an otherwise fairly well-off country of 7.8 million.

They have generally stayed out of the normal Israeli politics of war and peace, often staying neutral on the Palestinian question and focusing their deal-making on the material and spiritual needs of their constituents. Politically they have edged rightward in recent years.

In other words, while rejecting the state, the ultra-Orthodox have survived by making deals with it. And while dismissing the group, successive governments — whether run by the left or the right — have survived by trading subsidies for its votes. Now each has to live with the other, and the resulting friction is hard to contain.

“The coexistence between the two is breaking down,” said Arye Carmon, president of the Israel Democracy Institute, a Jerusalem research organization. “It is an extreme danger.”

Mr. Carmon compared the strictly religious Jews of Israel to the Islamists in the Arab world, saying that there was a similar dynamic at play in Egypt, with tensions growing between the secular forces that led the revolution and the Islamic parties now rising to prominence.

“Today there is not a city without a Haredi community,” said Rabbi Abraham Israel Gellis, a 10th-generation Jerusalem Haredi rabbi, as he sat in his home, an enormous yeshiva on a hill outside his window. “I have 38 grandchildren and they live all over the country.”

But while the community has gained increased economic might — there is a growing market catering to its needs — what is lacking is economic productivity. The community places Torah study above all other values and has worked assiduously to make it possible for its men to do that rather than work. While the women often work, there is a 60 percent unemployment rate among the men, who also generally do not serve in the army.

It is this combination — accepting government subsidies, refusing military service and declining to work, all while having six to eight children per family — that is unsettling for many Israelis, especially when citizens feel economically insecure and mistreated by the government.

“The Haredi issue is a force flowing underground, like lava, and it could explode,” Shelly Yacimovich, a member of the Israeli Parliament, and leader of the Labor Party, said in an interview. “That’s why it must be dealt with wisely, helping them to join modern society through work.”

While change has begun — thousands of Haredi men are learning professions, more are getting jobs and a small number have joined the Israeli Army — the community is in crisis. Many ultra-Orthodox leaders feel threatened by the integration into the broader society by some of their followers, and they are desperately holding on to their power.

“We have to earn a living,” said Rabbi Shmuel Pappenheim, a reformist Haredi leader from the town of Beit Shemesh. “We are a million people with a million problems. The rabbis can shout a thousand times against it but it won’t help them. And so we have the extremism — on both sides.”

Dan Ben-David, executive director of the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel, said fertility rates in the Haredi community made the issue especially acute; the very religious Jews are the only group in Israel having more children today than 30 years ago.

“They make up more than 20 percent of all kids in primary schools,” he said. “In 20 years, there is a risk we will have a third-world population here which can’t sustain a first-world economy and army.”

And, Mr. Ben-David added, what children learn in the ultra-Orthodox school system — largely unregulated by the state as a result of political deals — is unsuited for the 21st century, so even those who wish to work are finding it hard to find jobs.

“Their schools do not give them the skills to work in a modern economy and no training in civil or human rights or democracy,” Mr. Ben-David said. “They don’t even know what we are talking about — what we want from them — when we talk about discrimination against women.”

The Haredi community thinks this is a wild misunderstanding of its views.

Rabbi Dror Moshe Cassouto, a 33-year-old Hasid, lives with his wife and four sons in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Mea Shearim, one of the centers of Haredi life in Israel. He never looks directly at a woman, other than his wife, and he believes that men and women have roles in nature that in modern society have been reversed, “because we live in darkness.”

His goal is to spread the light. “God watches over the Jewish nation as long as it studies Torah,” he said.

Still, the spitting and Nazi talk horrify him. He says hard-liners have caused harm to the Haredim.

Asked about the recent troubles, Rabbi Cassouto shook his head and said, “A fool throws a stone into a well and 1,000 sages can’t remove it.”

[hongi]

They now number a million, a mostly poor community in an otherwise fairly well-off country of 7.8 million.

That's actually a lot. I didn't realise how many Haredim there were. And the numbers are growing you say? Never a dull moment in Israel.
\

[Simon_Jester]

This ties into what I was saying- Israel has unique problems with this because it really was founded as a refuge for adherents of a particular religion. You can be American without being Christian, and the American mainstream has accepted this for a long time even if there was prejudice against non-Christians- arguably since the nation was founded. But to be Israeli is to be a Jew, that's the point, so Israel has a problem when it tries to reject or deny the ambitions of any group of people who are definitely, distinctly, emphatically Jewish.

Since the ultra-Orthodox go so far out of their way to project an aura of 'more Jewish than thou' to those around them, I'd expect some real difficulties in coping with them, caused by a sort of cultural diffidence and reluctance of mainstream Jews to confront the Haredim and try to get them under control. And that seems to be what's happening.