Anti-American sentiments justifiable?

[Stormbringer]

France, Belgium, Germany, the EU at large- They hate us simply for being powerful and them being second teir nations (at least in terms of power and influence) internationally. Most of them are former colonial power and seem to have a residual envy that the US remains powerful and important.

I think it's more complicated than that. The way Americans can often dismiss criticisms with appeals to their own might is a major contributing factor. Or, to put it another way, the minute somebody ends an argument in the schoolyard by saying "Oh yeah? Well I'm bigger than you," what do you think of him?

Sorry to take so long answering, but I agree with that to a degree. We haven't been the best friends. However a lot of them seem to just carp and bitch for behaviour they engage in as well. French is right now acting like the mother of all hyocrites. A lot of it is just they resent America for being more influential and that's all there is to it.

[Kurgan]

Maybe its like that speech Quark gave to Sisko when they were on the "camping trip" early in the series (sorry, can't remember the episode title).

Something like "you resent us because we remind you of yourselves" ?

Heh. I mean just look a history, just about every fault America has had has been shared, matched or precedented by something from Europe or elsewhere (except nuking civies in a war, for that we take the full credit).

As I said, some of it is justifiable (if correctly placed, not as a blanket statement on all Americans, see the "Osama argument" on taxes) and some of it is not. Some of it is throwing stones from glass houses.

[Death from the Sea]

Some countries sure do have a reason to hate America. America helps railroad and talks down to a lot of nations for no better reason than they can.

Some do:

Japan- Our military personel have a history of rape and abuse to local woman, not to mention lots of other sorid behaviour and we've let them off. I can see why they'd be pissed at us.

You have got to be fucking kidding here, do you realize how many service men and women are in Japan and Okinawa? And every time ONE idiot does something stupid, suudenly all of them are rapists. Those that are rapists are punished twice as much as a civilian, in the Japanese courts then the Amercian military. Maybe you don't know because you have never been there, but I have. I was over there when a drunken sailor crawled into a window and the nearest bed to sleep it off(he was so drunk he thought he was home) and it turned out that a little 12 year old girl was already asleep in her bed. This sailor did not harm her or molest her in any way, he simply passed out. The next day though the headlines read "American Marines Rape Children Again"! Not only was this guy not a MARINE but they had accused him rape, when the girl told her father she woke up when he came in and then ran to get him(her father). BUT, when a local commits rape of children or adults, it does not get met with the same punishment from the local govt. as when an American does. And you say we let them off???
Japan is not pissed at America- Okinawa is. Okinawa does not want to be part of Japa and that is why Okinawa is pissed at Japan. Okinawa is also pissed at Japan because more than 85% of American military forces that are deployed in Japanese territory are stationed on Okinawa instead of Japan. Find a map or globe and look at the size difference between these two islands, that is the reason Okinawa is pissed.

[Kurgan]

Now to AMEND my last post... does the fact that some of Americas critics are hypocrites mean that their criticism has no foundation? Not necessarily.

After all the phrase "it takes one to know one" may apply. The only thing I reject is that because America does X, or Y, it automatically implies critic X, Y is more moral or more right, or that we should imitate their solution. That doesn't follow.

For example (and don't stone me to death for saying this) the Taliban (and others) portrayed us a bunch of greedy materialists and sex maniacs.

In American culture, those values are strong (not practiced by everyone of course, though at least the entertainment and fashion industry, heh). Now the Taliban do some things that I consider far worse (like torturing people and abusing women for not dressing properly or disagreeing with the ruling faith), nor do I agree with what their proposed solution would be (force fundamentalist Islamic law on the whole country and start executing people in soccer fields), but I can agree that those are some areas where we are less than perfect (unless you're a hedonist or materialist, in which case, these are actually virtues and there's no problem).

[Stormbringer]

You have got to be fucking kidding here, do you realize how many service men and women are in Japan and Okinawa?

I don't know the exact figures but I do know there are a hell of a lot of them.

And every time ONE idiot does something stupid, suudenly all of them are rapists. Those that are rapists are punished twice as much as a civilian, in the Japanese courts then the Amercian military.

I'm not saying all of them are rapists, thugs, and drunkards but the bad behaviour of even the minority is the US Military's resposibility. And frankly over the years they have committed an impressive list of crimes.

And when, and give a case, when US personel have been tried, convicted, and sentenced in both courts. Most I know get sent before US courts and only US courts. And most cases I've heard of have resulted in a no much more than a slap on the wrist.

Maybe you don't know because you have never been there, but I have. I was over there when a drunken sailor crawled into a window and the nearest bed to sleep it off(he was so drunk he thought he was home) and it turned out that a little 12 year old girl was already asleep in her bed. This sailor did not harm her or molest her in any way, he simply passed out. The next day though the headlines read "American Marines Rape Children Again"! Not only was this guy not a MARINE but they had accused him rape, when the girl told her father she woke up when he came in and then ran to get him(her father). BUT, when a local commits rape of children or adults, it does not get met with the same punishment from the local govt. as when an American does. And you say we let them off???

One overeaction to a crime (and you've got to admit that is a crime right there and suggests worse) doesn't discredit any number of cases where the crime was committed. And those people remember that this was done to them and their neighbors.

Japan is not pissed at America- Okinawa is. Okinawa does not want to be part of Japa and that is why Okinawa is pissed at Japan. Okinawa is also pissed at Japan because more than 85% of American military forces that are deployed in Japanese territory are stationed on Okinawa instead of Japan. Find a map or globe and look at the size difference between these two islands, that is the reason Okinawa is pissed.

Okinawa is more pissed. Japan just has a simmering resentment. And just because Okinawa is pissed at Japan doesn't mean Japan likes us. The world doesn't love us by default.

I seem to remember the Japanese people being pretty damn pissed after we sunk that fishing trawler and let the Captain off.

[Kurgan]

I'd probably hazard that Japan and Russia hate each other more (or equal to) the US and Japan. That's just a guess.. ; p

[Darth Wong]

You have got to be fucking kidding here, do you realize how many service men and women are in Japan and Okinawa? And every time ONE idiot does something stupid, suudenly all of them are rapists.

Or rapist protectors, since they immediately whisk the offender back to the US, so the victim and her family never gets to face their attacker in court. They do not receive closure, hence they feel a deep sense of injustice. The fact that many of these clowns get a slap on the wrist just rubs salt in the wound.

Those that are rapists are punished twice as much as a civilian, in the Japanese courts then the Amercian military. Maybe you don't know because you have never been there, but I have. I was over there when a drunken sailor crawled into a window and the nearest bed to sleep it off(he was so drunk he thought he was home) and it turned out that a little 12 year old girl was already asleep in her bed. This sailor did not harm her or molest her in any way, he simply passed out.

If somebody did that in America, he'd be shot by the fucking father or he'd get a fucking sledgehammer through the head, and no one would question it.

The next day though the headlines read "American Marines Rape Children Again"! Not only was this guy not a MARINE but they had accused him rape, when the girl told her father she woke up when he came in and then ran to get him(her father). BUT, when a local commits rape of children or adults, it does not get met with the same punishment from the local govt. as when an American does. And you say we let them off???

This is the most pathetic bullshit story I've ever heard. If you crawl into the bed of a small child, you have a lot of fucking explaining to do. I don't give a goddamn if you were drunk.

Japan is not pissed at America- Okinawa is. Okinawa does not want to be part of Japa and that is why Okinawa is pissed at Japan. Okinawa is also pissed at Japan because more than 85% of American military forces that are deployed in Japanese territory are stationed on Okinawa instead of Japan. Find a map or globe and look at the size difference between these two islands, that is the reason Okinawa is pissed.

They're pissed because American soldiers on Okinawa have not endeared themselves to the native population. You seem to think that the native population has been unfair to you; that's bullshit. When you're a guest in an ally's land, you should be bending over backward to make them happy rather than shitting on them and then bitching that they have an attitude problem.

[weemadando]

You have got to be fucking kidding here, do you realize how many service men and women are in Japan and Okinawa? And every time ONE idiot does something stupid, suudenly all of them are rapists.

Or rapist protectors, since they immediately whisk the offender back to the US, so the victim and her family never gets to face their attacker in court. They do not receive closure, hence they feel a deep sense of injustice. The fact that many of these clowns get a slap on the wrist just rubs salt in the wound.

I personally know of one girl here who was raped by a sailor on shore leave, and who to the best of my knowledge, despite all protests from our police and government has never been charged.

[Death from the Sea]

Or rapist protectors, since they immediately whisk the offender back to the US, so the victim and her family never gets to face their attacker in court. They do not receive closure, hence they feel a deep sense of injustice. The fact that many of these clowns get a slap on the wrist just rubs salt in the wound.

whisked away? since when did that happen? That never happened in any case I ever heard of, unless you mean that the locals whicked his ass to their jail to beat his ass. "Slap on the Wrist" ? lets assume for a second that these guys get no jail time, they are still discharged dishonorably or at best a general discharge under other than honorable conditions, try getting any job with that over your head

If somebody did that in America, he'd be shot by the fucking father or he'd get a fucking sledgehammer through the head, and no one would question it.

Yes, you are right. But just because the father of the girl showed some fucking common sense, in that he was obviously not doing any real harm other than trepassing, because he was unconcious, doesn't mean that he was wrong. He showed some compassion, something most people don't bother with anymore, but the point is that the govt and the press distorted the story.

This is the most pathetic bullshit story I've ever heard. If you crawl into the bed of a small child, you have a lot of fucking explaining to do. I don't give a goddamn if you were drunk.

I never said he should not have been punished for fucking up, just that they should get their shit straight, also this "pathetic bullshit" of exagerating the and falsified reports by the locals happens alot, when it should not happen at all.

They're pissed because American soldiers on Okinawa have not endeared themselves to the native population. You seem to think that the native population has been unfair to you; that's bullshit. When you're a guest in an ally's land, you should be bending over backward to make them happy rather than shitting on them and then bitching that they have an attitude problem.

We haven't endeared ourselves??? That must be a joke because first of all endearing ourselves to the locals is not what the military is there for, we are there for their protection and also as a forward deployed unit ready to go fight at anytime, so handing out daisies and making sure that the locals felt comfortable with us was not something we have alot of time for. Sometimes we did things for the community such as picking up trash along the highway when we had the time. The local population was just as unfair to us as you seem to think we were to them. FOR EXAMPLE Many shop owners did not allow American servicemen in their shops for the simple fact we were Americans, while they reserve the right to serve those they wish that is fine, but I almost got arrested for entering a shop and not immediately leaving when the owner started yelling in japanese for me to leave(I was in there less than 90 seconds) and local police happened by. I walked in with several locals and when he started yelling, I thought he was yelling at a shoplifter or something. Now I did make some friends over there, so I realize they are not all out to get American servicemen but you easily get that feeling when there.

[Knife]

The situation is Oki is more complex than any of you are suggesting (been there twice). If you look at any other city/country where US servicemen are stationed, you will find the same issues.

For the rape part, it is always a travesty and one that is looked down upon by the men and women of the military over there. Nobody cheers when one of these insidents happens. The perpatrator is either handed over to the locals for trial or put infront of a military court (with all the hoopla over the detainees in Cuba, one can think that the rapist are more fucked in military court than civilian) depending on the situation. When one of these bastards is put in jail, either Japanesse or American, I assure you that the other servicemen/women cheer that. I am sure that when the military conducts the trial rather than the local goverment, some ill feelings are made but we have to make choices depending on the evidence and rights of both the victim and the accused.

For the general mood in Oki, ok its been almost ten years but, most of the disent is from the usual suspects. Colledge kids gather and protest, hardline nationalist protest, people with a grudge against the US protest and so on. The entire economy of the island is totally dependent on the servicemen/women, with massive entertainment geared to the Marines, Sailors, and Airmen on the island. The overall situation is comparable to Puerto Rico and that island (forgot the name) that the Navy uses for target practice. The activist want us out but to do so would destroy the natives economy, bussiness, infrastructure, and basicly their way of life. Some really like us, some really hate us, and others just try to live their lives.

[Death from the Sea]

You are correct Knife the situation is very complex over there. What unit(s) were you with when you were there? I was there 1999-2000 with First Battalion Third Marines.

[Knife]

You are correct Knife the situation is very complex over there. What unit(s) were you with when you were there? I was there 1999-2000 with First Battalion Third Marines.

3rd BN 5th Marines in 1992 and same unit but deployed as the 31st MEU(SOC) in 94. Hanson both times but have been to Tori station, Kedinea (not sure on spelling), and other assorted bases and stations in and around Okinawa.

[XPViking]

They're pissed because American soldiers on Okinawa have not endeared themselves to the native population. You seem to think that the native population has been unfair to you; that's bullshit. When you're a guest in an ally's land, you should be bending over backward to make them happy rather than shitting on them and then bitching that they have an attitude problem.

I don't know much about Okinawa but I can tell you that in South Korea, the soldiers here do quite a bit of good that gets unreported in the news. Sure, there are some jerk soldiers, but the ones I've met seem decent.

XPViking


edit: Just found the news article in the Korea Herald. I'm going to repost it here.



[Letters to the editors]Korean media's biased coverage of U.S. military

I have lived in Korea for several years and more than three times a week on average there is some negative aspect toward the U.S. military either in The Korea Herald itself or other media outlets. Rarely are there any reports or articles on anything good, generous or positive things in nature that the U.S. military has done, nor is there any coverage of Korean nationals who have harmed or committed crimes against the U.S. military.

The Korean media never covered the U.S. army helicopter that evacuated a pregnant woman in labor from a remote island near the DMZ during bad weather conditions. The Korean authorities both civilian and military did not have the technology to safely transport the woman to Seoul, therefore the U.S. military was called in. If I am not mistaken, she actually gave birth at the hospital on Yongsan army base.

The Korean media also never brought any attention to the U.S. officer stabbed and killed in Itaewon during the middle of the afternoon by a deranged male Korean citizen approximately two years ago. There was no coverage of his family or sympathy towards the situation. There was no incident coverage of a Korean F-16 fighter pilot who accidentally launched a missile out into the Yellow Sea while taxing on the runway of Gunsan air base. What would the coverage have been had the pilot been American? Recently, Korean students threatened the Web sites of American government and other entities in protest of the killed schoolgirls. This, too, was not covered on any media circuit in Korea.

Two reporters who were part of a group who cut through a section of fence surrounding the base in Uijeongbu and forced their way, trespassing on U.S. government property, now claim they were not provided a lawyer or access to interpreters. First, probably the only lawyers available were Americans and I find this hard to believe since KATUSA soldiers are mainly used as interpreters during any type of language barrier or translation needs. The fact remains they trespassed and were detained. I do not recall hearing about the U.S. soldiers who were hurt by debris and rocks that were thrown into the base by the protesters on the news.

This type of neglect and poor media management is part of the problem that stems to roots of anti-Americanism among the civic groups and student activists. The Korean media should make more of an effort to both positively and negatively cover the 37,000 troops here in the country.

Koreans should understand that accidents will and do happen. It's not Americans or Koreans who commit crimes or make mistakes. Human beings are prone to mistakes and accidents. It seems the Korean media only shines their bright lights on them when they involve U.S. military.

Derek Ball Seoul

2002.07.22

[Tom_Aurum]

Okay. Something not many of us are realizing here. Look at the pattern here. The problem these countries have is that to us, they are Imperial outposts. In some way they have a relation to our country directly related to our troops.

Some feel (rightfully I'd say, regardless of behaviour) displaced by the presence of troops in their nation. Some are dependent on the trade our troop outposts provided. Some hae entire cultures that are part American because of our imperial outposts in the area. And just recently we have added through conquest another imperial outpost, Afghanistan.

We have an army stretched thin across the far ends of the world. So few people have taken this thought into consideration. That purely by being an empire we put this nation at risk. We continually have a drain of resources from our economy simply because we have a constant standing army. If I were the president, I'd order at least <half> of the troops out on foreign deployment orders back to our shores, simply in the interest of making our fighting forces more efficient. To think of it strategically, the United States of America is wasting resources turtling itself across the map. The moment someone figures out how to break that Turtle, down comes the prettily arranged armies that we had sitting all over the place, doing nothing.

Why do you think Bush wants to take over Iraq? Do you honestly think he has a sincere, polite beleif in turning Iraq into a working democracy? No. Do you even think he's going there for the oil that Iraq could provide? No, their oil production is only a small slice out of the pie. He just wants to keep the United States military in practice! Keeping an Imperial size army just hanging around is a very demanding thing for any nation, and will cause political problems no matter how you do it.

[Smiling Bandit]

Japan - Our military personel have a history of rape and abuse to local woman, not to mention lots of other sorid behaviour and we've let them off. I can see why they'd be pissed at us.

This is not true. The crime rate for soldiers is actually quite low, hoewever, when something hits their local media it gets turned into a circus.

Middle East - We've helped a oppress them for a long time for oil and we've generally talked down to them. Not to mention we need to moderate Israeli behaviour. (I think blaming westerners for the Crusades is at this point retarded)

We've talk down to them, but from our point of view they aren't very important. We don't repress them in any way since the Shah of Iran stuff. In any event, why is it our responsibility to moderate Israel?

[salm]

France, Belgium, Germany, the EU at large- They hate us simply for being powerful and them being second teir nations (at least in terms of power and influence) internationally. Most of them are former colonial power and seem to have a residual envy that the US remains powerful and important.

damn it! how long is it going to take and how often should people post it until some other people understand it.

DISAGEEMENT IS NOT THE SAME AS HATE!!!!!!!!!!!

do - you - un - der - stand - what - i - am - say - ing - ?

[Darth Wong]

Japan - Our military personel have a history of rape and abuse to local woman, not to mention lots of other sorid behaviour and we've let them off. I can see why they'd be pissed at us.

This is not true. The crime rate for soldiers is actually quite low, hoewever, when something hits their local media it gets turned into a circus.

It's the fact that you don't let the victims get any justice which drives them crazy, not the rate of incidence.

Middle East - We've helped a oppress them for a long time for oil and we've generally talked down to them. Not to mention we need to moderate Israeli behaviour. (I think blaming westerners for the Crusades is at this point retarded)

We've talk down to them, but from our point of view they aren't very important. We don't repress them in any way since the Shah of Iran stuff. In any event, why is it our responsibility to moderate Israel?

Because you give them the weapons they're using, and continue to feed them a steady stream of said weapons. FDR once called America the "Arsenal of Democracy". Arabs today call it the Arsenal of Israel. You don't have to send soldiers to a war in order to be involved in it.

[Stormbringer]

France, Belgium, Germany, the EU at large- They hate us simply for being powerful and them being second teir nations (at least in terms of power and influence) internationally. Most of them are former colonial power and seem to have a residual envy that the US remains powerful and important.

damn it! how long is it going to take and how often should people post it until some other people understand it.

DISAGEEMENT IS NOT THE SAME AS HATE!!!!!!!!!!!

do - you - un - der - stand - what - i - am - say - ing - ?

When you've got Ministers calling us Nazis and our President Hitler it's harder than hell to tell. Especially when you guys have been opposing us and nagging us all the time.

[Stormbringer]

Death from the Sea, Smiling Bandit:

I personally know of one girl here who was raped by a sailor on shore leave, and who to the best of my knowledge, despite all protests from our police and government has never been charged.

It's incident like that, which happen around US bases in plenty of countries that engender a lot of hatred and resentemtn. Shit like that does happen and it is a legitimate reason when it comes down to it.

I certainly do mean to imply that all or anything more than a small minority of military personell do things like that. But the sad fact is, it does happen.

[salm]

France, Belgium, Germany, the EU at large- They hate us simply for being powerful and them being second teir nations (at least in terms of power and influence) internationally. Most of them are former colonial power and seem to have a residual envy that the US remains powerful and important.

damn it! how long is it going to take and how often should people post it until some other people understand it.

DISAGEEMENT IS NOT THE SAME AS HATE!!!!!!!!!!!

do - you - un - der - stand - what - i - am - say - ing - ?

When you've got Ministers calling us Nazis and our President Hitler it's harder than hell to tell.

*grmbl* i thought Cpt_Frank already took care of this argument on page 2 or 3

Especially when you guys have been opposing us and nagging us all the time.

we guys? what we guys? we europeans at sd.net? we ALL europeans?

oh yeah, one more thing:
opposing and nagging is also not the same as hate.

some europeans hate the us and ALL US americans. they are idiots and luckily a minority. just accept it. the average european doesn´t hate you, even though it occasionally seems like you sometimes want the euros to hate ALL americans just that you can say we´re a bunch of hate promoting, intollerant, usa bashing assholes.

[salm]

something for your super dooper hitler comparison argument:
rumsfeld put us on the same level as lybia and cuba.

i still don´t blame the entire us even though this idiot was not thrown out.

saying that an entire coutry hates the us because of ONE fucking stupid comment of ONE dumb minister is idotic.

MAHOK!

[weemadando]

Death from the Sea, Smiling Bandit:

I personally know of one girl here who was raped by a sailor on shore leave, and who to the best of my knowledge, despite all protests from our police and government has never been charged.

It's incident like that, which happen around US bases in plenty of countries that engender a lot of hatred and resentemtn. Shit like that does happen and it is a legitimate reason when it comes down to it.

I certainly do mean to imply that all or anything more than a small minority of military personell do things like that. But the sad fact is, it does happen.

I know that that kind of stuff happens all over the owrld and that it is just a small percentage of people that do it. But what truly shits me about it, is that the US military refuses to turn him over to be charged here, and won't charge him themselves.

And I'll say that this kind of incident occurs nearly every time a carrier visits town. In one notable one a 14y/o girl was drugged and gang-raped. In that case the offenders were all courtmartialled and hopefully still in a fucking federal hell-hole.

[XPViking]

I know that that kind of stuff happens all over the owrld and that it is just a small percentage of people that do it. But what truly shits me about it, is that the US military refuses to turn him over to be charged here, and won't charge him themselves.

Because the soldiers would be ripped apart by a crowd or may not get a fair trial. I'm not condoning the behaviour of the soldiers here, but I can see why the US has SOFAs.

XPViking

[salm]

I know that that kind of stuff happens all over the owrld and that it is just a small percentage of people that do it. But what truly shits me about it, is that the US military refuses to turn him over to be charged here, and won't charge him themselves.

Because the soldiers would be ripped apart by a crowd or may not get a fair trial. I'm not condoning the behaviour of the soldiers here, but I can see why the US has SOFAs.

XPViking

well, if they´re not charged by the us, they don´t get a fair trial either...

[XPViking]

Look, if they weren't even charged, sure I can see people being pissed off. I suppose my remarks were jumping the gun a little (that is, the person is already charged). I think the public perception in these cases is generally, charge the soldier and then hand out a guilty verdict. Possibly some people see no difference if the soldier is found innocent since "Why bother in the first place? He's going to get off because the military protects its own."

XPViking