Firefighters forced to let house burn down

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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Broomstick »

Alkaloid wrote:Is there some sane reason that emergency services in the US are run by the city/county and not the state? Because it seems schizophrenic and disjointed at best.
Well, do keep in mind that many cities and counties in the US rival some nations in size and wealth. In a city like Chicago or New York, with its skyscrapers, airports, ports, factories, etc. that are either absent or uncommon in the rest of the state it makes sense to organize on a municipal level.

However, real reason is historical. While the US was expanding counties and cities were frequently largely on their own and had to make do with what they had. Territorial, and later state, governments weren't that powerful and communication and transportation somewhat spotty and difficult.

Certain services ARE organized at the state level - the National Guard, for example, and their are state police. However, the National Guard are only called out for extreme emergencies, and the state police typically only deal with things that cross county lines, such as patrolling the interstate and other highways.

What it comes down to is that the US culturally emphasizes local control.

Now, in my area, "unincorporated" parts of the county are usually covered by volunteer fire departments. That is, the fire fighters are volunteer, they work for no pay (they usually have other employment), and equipment costs are covered by various means, from local fundraisers to government grants. They do seem fairly effective at getting people out of house fires alive, and keeping one house fire from spreading to adjacent buildings. This sort of arrangement is not uncommon with rural and lower population areas. Here is a link to the Griffith Fire Department, who are the people who would respond if I called 911. From what I've seen they respond just as promptly as the Chicago Fire Department did when I lived in the big city (of course, they're covering a much smaller area) and last year they did a fine job of making sure the flaming car parked next to the building next door not only didn't spread to my building, but also prevented damage to the building it was almost on top of. They deal with house fires, brush fires, industrial fires, airplane crashes (the airport I used to fly out of regularly is also under their jurisdiction), train accidents, and vehicle crashes and accidents. They use the same equipment as the big city departments, they just have less of it. This is how it is normally done in the US. Even small, non-wealthy areas make an effort to get professional-quality fire coverage even from volunteers. They also engage in quite a bit of fire prevention work. About 70% of US fire-fighters are classified as volunteers, so it's a common system in the US.

What's sort of unusual is that this part of Tennessee doesn't seem to have such a system. Then again, my Tennessee relatives seem inordinately proud of how very low the taxes are in their state, while ignoring the lack of governmental services, even vital ones. Sure, they pay next to no taxes, but if they want electric lighting instead of kerosene lanterns they have to pay to have poles put up and wire strung up the mountain - which is why some of them still don't have electric power in their homes. Likewise, if you want something other than an outhouse YOU get to either dig the well and septic system, or YOU pay for the sewer line to your home and the labor to install in - which is why some of them still have outhouses.

So, while a LOT of the US depends on the county/city government to take care of various services like police, fire, water, sewer, etc. there does seem to be a meme in Tennessee of having the government do fuck-all and you, yourself, have to pay for everything. Which totally sucks if you're poor - stop and think about it. Apparently, though, even in rural regions they can't get enough people off their asses to form a volunteer department, and apparently can't get anyone to buy raffle tickets or come to a Friday fund-raising dinner to equip it. They also, apparently, can't get anyone to tap into the Federal money/resources for such a fire department (I have no idea if Tennessee provides any state-level support, although most states I'm aware do give support/money/resources to local fire departments).

You see, in MY county, even the poorest and most destitute person, someone too poor to owe taxes, will still get fire service when they call 911, or just run down the street screaming FIRE!!!! Maybe it's because we've figured out that shit can spread and it's really a hell of a lot better to just put the damn thing out early. If you don't want the entire trailer park to turn into a raging inferno put out the first one that catches fire. We don't insist every household pay a $75 fee for the coverage, and we don't have a list of protected or not protected people. Even where we have county level organization we don't force people to pay a "subscription" for fire protection.

tl:dnr - this situation in Tennessee is an aberration by US standards, even for rural/remote areas. Apparently, they can't even get a volunteer department going, despite the fact there are government funds and grants available. Since 911, the Feds have provided more money for this as well as part of improving disaster preparedness. Even fucking Texas provides some state funding to local departments. This is a shocking state of affairs that does not have to exist. There is money to either set up, or be compensated, for fire coverage of rural areas.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Broomstick »

Alkaloid wrote:
US states are typically full of vast empty spaces, it doesn't make any sense to control coverage at the state level when requirements vary so radically.
If Australia, a country of similar size, vastly lager states and vastly smaller population can set up state run fire services that don't leave anyone having to pay a subscription fee to get service ever, I don't see why it would be harder for the US.
As I mentioned in a somewhat rambling prior post:

1) Both state and Federal governments in the US provide money and support to local/county/city fire departments. Instead of the state running the various FD's, though, they let a lower level of government do it.

2) And as far as I know, this location in Tennessee is the ONLY place a "subscription" is required.
Alkaloid wrote:Centrally run fire services can cut down costs for small communities by huge margins because it allows a fire station that is funded and equipped by the state but staffed by volunteers, so communities that normally don't have the population to pay for or staff a fire service full time can get one for a fraction of the cost.
That is, essentially, the system employed through most of the US. The only difference is that the stations are not "centrally run", just provided with funding from the state coffers, as well as whatever local funding can be raised.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Alkaloid »

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. From there the only real advantage to state run is it's very easy to coordinate a statewide response to a truly massive fire, but to be fair that seems to not be much of an issue for Americans that aren't from California.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Flagg »

Alkaloid wrote:Ok, that makes a lot more sense. From there the only real advantage to state run is it's very easy to coordinate a statewide response to a truly massive fire, but to be fair that seems to not be much of an issue for Americans that aren't from California.
That's not even remotely true. There are massive wildfires across the country every year.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by FSTargetDrone »

My little borough (basically, a town) in Pennsylvania has a population of about 4500 living in about .7 sq. miles., even smaller than the one Broomstick talked about (we're so damn small that some of the 5 police officers also work over in the neighboring borough's department!) We have 2 volunteer fire departments that are physically located roughly 6 streets over from each other. I could walk from one to the other in about 6 minutes. Each department (named "Friendship" and "Humane") was formed over 100 years ago with the intention that they would protect different parts of the borough that were physically isolated from each other. This was in the days when the fire engines were drawn by horse. And the horses were originally lent by citizens who were paid for their use after a fire call! One of the fire stations is original and still has its old hayloft over the vehicle bay. The 2 companies also aid other nearby townships and boroughs, and vice versa.

Money has been tight, taxes were not raised this year so the two companies (which have recently merged under one department but are still run from their respective buildings) have started to charge people for non-emergency services such as pumping out basements after heavy rain. That was normally covered by donations, but that too has fallen off. There were dozens of flooded basements when Hurricane Irene hit and no one paid for that cleanup. Money is so scarce that the annual fund-raising dinner (held at one of the fire halls) was drastically impacted when the only bridge directly connecting our neighboring borough was closed for repairs--people who normally drove across the river to get a roasted chicken dinner simply didn't come. Grants have been reduced. The firefighters aren't paid, but a lot of money is required simply to keep the fire houses and equipment in good repair. On top of that, there are building utilities, hydrant fees, vehicle and liability insurance and other operational costs.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Lagmonster »

When evaluating options, don't forget that there is always a health risk to the firefighters when they are battling a blaze. It's trivial to say, "They were right there ready to go; they should have charged in and put the fire out because it's the right thing to do". There are damned good reasons NOT to take risks even when the alternatives are tragic.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by KAN reborn »

Firefighters let a house burn because the owner did not pay the subscription fee? Shouldn't firefighters be supported by the government? Has the fire department become software industry or what?
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

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KAN reborn wrote:Firefighters let a house burn because the owner did not pay the subscription fee? Shouldn't firefighters be supported by the government? Has the fire department become software industry or what?
Learn to read. The firefighters are based out of a nearby city that supports the department throuh tax revenue, but the nearby counties don't pay into the department at all, other than that subscription fee.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Uraniun235 »

Alkaloid wrote:Is there some sane reason that emergency services in the US are run by the city/county and not the state? Because it seems schizophrenic and disjointed at best.
Americans can get funny stubborn about protecting local control over certain things. Remember also that most school districts are directly governed by locally elected councils - they may have to adhere to some standards from the state (federal standards basically only apply to qualifying for federal funds; if you can get along without them, you can give the feds the finger) but their actual governance lies with the local board.

Fundamentally it's about a lack of trust and the illusion of control over fate. Proposing to do away with local control would have people worried that their service would be degraded in favor of ~someone else~, or that they wouldn't be allowed to decide for themselves how much money the fire department needs (whether it's more or less than ~some state bureaucrat~ decides), or that the fire department would somehow become decoupled from the community (and the local fire department can play a big part in a small town).



In most places in the US, local control of fire departments works fine, and there's plenty of cooperation between various city and rural fire departments to help each other out even without major fires. Sometimes it's just a busy night for a fire department, and the neighboring town will send over a unit to help or even just be available to respond if another call comes in.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yes. By and large the system works- it's in the extreme limiting cases, where the departments go so unfunded that it's impossible to cover everything, that you have problems.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Thanas »

Ahriman238 wrote:Fun fact, the first Roman fire department was more-or-less run on extortion. It was made up of the slaves of a wealthy patriarch who would purchase the burning property cheap and only then losse his firemen on it. Attempts to haggle or negotiate resulted only in him lowering his offer.
No, this was not th first Roman fire department. This was Crassus preventing other firefighters to arrive on the scene so that he could do the above.


For the OT: Wouldn't a portion of the costs already have been incurred by the department just for driving out there? So doesn't the city lose money either way?
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Ultonius »

I believe that in Lancaster County in Pennsylvania, the fire companies are mainly volunteer, and are funded by annual 'mud sales': auctions held in the spring where arts and crafts such as quilts are sold, as well as farm equipment, livestock and buggies.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

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Thanas wrote:For the OT: Wouldn't a portion of the costs already have been incurred by the department just for driving out there? So doesn't the city lose money either way?
Yes, that's part of the stupidity of it all.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Raj Ahten »

As a volunteer Fire Fighter myself I can tell you I don't agree with what happened here in Tennessee but I can definitely see why that department acted as it did. The reason they were just standing there was likely to ensure the fire didn't spread to other residences, even if they weren't going to do anything about the trailer on fire. I would bet money that if anyone was still in the structure at the time of the blaze the firefighters would have went in anyway. No firefighter I've ever met would ever just sit there and watch people burn to death.

As an aside the costs of modern fire fighting are simply astronomical, to put it mildly. Just as an example my department bought a new engine and it cost us a bit over a million dollars. The state and county are paying for about half of it. Luckily we are in a wealthy area and have Bingo to bring in the cash to help pay for it all.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

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How high is the cost of acting compared to the cost of driving there, getting ready and then standing around?
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think it may be the second order cost they worry about. Suppose they put out the fire. Obion County is not a rich area; there are a lot of people who will skip a $75 annual payment if they don't have to make it. Suppose fifty people in the county* hear about the South Fulton fire department putting out a fire in the house of someone who didn't pay their subscription, and decide not to pay. Now putting out that fire is costing them $3750 a year, for the next several years.

*(population 32450 in the 2000 census, but at least half live in incorporated cities and aren't covered by South Fulton)
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

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I suspect that the sociopaths or idiots who do not pay but have the means are really a very tiny minority. I think the people who do not pay mainly do not have the means.

I really do not get why this is done this way. You are wrecking the existence and livelihood of people over 75 bucks. Scummy behaviour.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

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Thanas wrote:I think the people who do not pay mainly do not have the means.
I have trouble seeing how $75/yr is beyond the means of, well, pretty much any adult. Even at minimum wage, that amounts to just a long day's work, and if someone doesn't have a job, it's not so hard to mooch fire protection money from parents, friends, or relatives. Put differently, in terms of monthly payments, $75/yr amounts to a roughly 1% increase in rent: if you can afford housing, you can almost certainly afford fire protection.

It seems to me that, as the article said about these particular folks, the people who do not pay are falling prey to their own poor judgment, not an income trap as one might expect with, say, expensive health care. The difference between fire protection paid for by taxes and voluntary fire protection is that the former protects people from themselves while the latter relies on people being smart enough to buy fire insurance. Turns out people are stupid -- who knew?
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Surlethe »

Or from another perspective, these folks decided to live in an area where the social contract doesn't cover fire protection and they didn't decide to get a substitute. That's like living in the US and deciding not to buy health insurance (given you can afford it, which is the difference between health insurance in general and fire insurance in this case). I'm still not feeling much sympathy.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

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Note how I said
I suspect that the sociopaths or idiots who do not pay but have the means are really a very tiny minority.
Do not make my position what it is not in your argument.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Alyeska »

Going off memory here, but the situation for the county is like this. They intentionally do not have a fire department. They have deliberately choose not to fund it. I think any time the idea has been proposed it has been voted down.

The nearby city who is primarily funded by city taxes has its fire department. Knowing that the county has not been able or willing to provide fire service, the city has allowed their fire department to go on calls out to the county. Because the fire department is primarily funded by the city taxes, they simply ask that the county residents pay a fee since they are NOT paying into these emergency services through their tax dollars.

The only complaints that can be made is over the government structure and that the county is allowed to not provide critical services of any sort. The county could make a contract with the city for emergency services (this is not unheard of, Los Angeles county Sheriffs Department actually contracts to act as the police department for a lot of cities and towns within the county) but they have elected not to. They do not collect any money for emergency services and provide no services short of the Sheriffs department.

The city has no direct responsibility to the county. They offer a service while requesting a fair fee in return. The problem is the government structure and the lack of services by the county. I cannot lay any blame on the city fire department. If they put out a fire for someone who did not pay, then the county stops paying for the service outright because they know they can get such services without. So the city pays to provide service outside the city and the county residents do not pay their fair burden because the county doesn't tax them for such services.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Thanas wrote:Note how I said
I suspect that the sociopaths or idiots who do not pay but have the means are really a very tiny minority.
Do not make my position what it is not in your argument.
It seemed like he was taking issue with your belief that they are a very tiny minority.

As for why they show up. Do we know if they show up and do a life saving sweep of the home or do they just show up and watch the place burn? I guess I'm looking for input from the Fire Department and not the exaggerated opinions of home owners.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Thanas »

Hmmm. Looking at Alyeska's post I can see that the city is in a pretty hard spot due to the irresponsible county. How affluent is the city? Because if it is just a tiny drop in the budget I would say that they should do the noble thing and eat the costs. If not, then they are pretty justified in this case.
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by AniThyng »

Thanas wrote:Note how I said
I suspect that the sociopaths or idiots who do not pay but have the means are really a very tiny minority.
Do not make my position what it is not in your argument.
Maybe it's my cultural perspective, but in my experience there are plenty of people who have the means to pay for <service> but will gladly leech/delay it if the payment is not strictly enforced, or if like the couple in this case thing "they'll never need it".
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Re: Firefighters forced to let house burn down

Post by Temjin »

Thanas wrote:Hmmm. Looking at Alyeska's post I can see that the city is in a pretty hard spot due to the irresponsible county. How affluent is the city? Because if it is just a tiny drop in the budget I would say that they should do the noble thing and eat the costs. If not, then they are pretty justified in this case.
Doing a quick check on Wikipedia, South Fulton's population is all of 2,500 people. Median income is about $27,000 with about 16 percent of the population below the poverty line.
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