Firefighters forced to let house burn down

[Simon_Jester]

Yes. South Fulton isn't really a 'city' in the normal sense, it's a small town.

[Alyeska]

Yes. South Fulton isn't really a 'city' in the normal sense, it's a small town.

If it has a mayor and a city council, its a city as far as I am concerned. It is just a very small city.

[RogueIce]

Note how I said

I suspect that the sociopaths or idiots who do not pay but have the means are really a very tiny minority.

Do not make my position what it is not in your argument.

It seemed like he was taking issue with your belief that they are a very tiny minority.

As for why they show up. Do we know if they show up and do a life saving sweep of the home or do they just show up and watch the place burn? I guess I'm looking for input from the Fire Department and not the exaggerated opinions of home owners.

I seem to recall from the first time it was brought up that the FD said they'd make sure no lives were in danger, as well as being there to contain it should it spread (I don't think they specified under what conditions, though). How they do the sweep wasn't detailed, AFAIK. But I'd assume they're at least somewhat competent at it.

Anyway, as far as the "bill after the fact" idea goes, I also recall from that thread where it was brought up that, if they do so and the homeowner doesn't pay, the city/FD is absolutely powerless to ever collect. They can't send collectors out, put a lien, go to court, nothing. IIRC, some of the other local FDs that do (or did) the bill option have budgetary problems because they can't collect (or collect less than what is owed). Which is probably why South Fulton doesn't use that method and prefers the subscription one.

[Thanas]

Yes. South Fulton isn't really a 'city' in the normal sense, it's a small town.

2500 is plenty enough to be able to fund a fire department. I know my village of 3000 does so.

The problem is how much it really costs them to go and stop a fire.

[starslayer]

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. From there the only real advantage to state run is it's very easy to coordinate a statewide response to a truly massive fire, but to be fair that seems to not be much of an issue for Americans that aren't from California.

It should be noted that California at least does have a state-run fire service (Calfire) specifically for fighting wildfires which draws largely from either summer volunteers or fire departments all over the state. Presumably, other states with large wildfire risks have similar protocols/services in place. Otherwise, it doesn't strike me as especially necessary to coordinate every single department at the state level.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes. South Fulton isn't really a 'city' in the normal sense, it's a small town.

If it has a mayor and a city council, its a city as far as I am concerned. It is just a very small city.

Excuse me. It is a "city" in the legal sense, but it is a very small one, to the point where the usual connotation of a "city" may not apply, and where describing it as a "town" more accurately conveys its size and resources.

Yes. South Fulton isn't really a 'city' in the normal sense, it's a small town.

2500 is plenty enough to be able to fund a fire department. I know my village of 3000 does so.
The problem is how much it really costs them to go and stop a fire.

It's enough to support the fire department, or they wouldn't have one in the first place. But it's also small enough compared to the size of the county. If they provide free fire coverage to all the unincorporated parts of the county, they're probably covering a population of about five or six times the size of the tax base that funds the fire department in the first place.

It would probably be hard to run the department if there were four or five freeloaders per person paying for it- or those taxpayers wind up spending about five times more money than they ought to have to spend.

[RogueIce]

Ah, found the PDF explaining the bit about subscriptions.

Link (PDF)

Three (3) of the municipal departments are offering services on a subscription basis, and five (5) municipal departments are offering services on an as needed basis without subscription or ability to pay for response. The municipal fire departments which utilize a subscription service are not bound to and do not respond to fires on rural properties which do not have a subscription for fire service. The only rural property owners guaranteed to receive fire protection services are those who choose to pay for it. It they choose not to purchase an annual subscription and require fire protection services, they fall on the mercy of a municipal department who provide services on an as needed basis. When such occurs, the responding fire department normally provides those services without compensation.

According to survey information, over 75% of all municipal fire department’s structure calls are rural. All fire departments in Obion County charge a $500.00 fee per call in rural areas, but collections are, less than 50% and the fire departments have no way of legally collecting the charge. Therefore, the service was provided at the expense of the municipal tax payer.

Bolded the relevent bits.

So 75% of their calls are outside of their actual cities, collection of after-the-fact bills is less than 50%, and they have no way of legally collecting when people don't pay on their own. And thus the costs go on to the city taxpayers. So I'd imagine you can see why South Fulton doesn't do things this way.

[Alyeska]

Yes. South Fulton isn't really a 'city' in the normal sense, it's a small town.

2500 is plenty enough to be able to fund a fire department. I know my village of 3000 does so.

The problem is how much it really costs them to go and stop a fire.

Population break down.

All numbers are as of 2000, but the rates should be similar.

Obion County has a total population of 32,000 people.

Major towns and cities in Obion County.

South Fulton: 2,500
Hornbeak: 435
Obion: 1,100
Rives: 330
Samburg: 260
Troy: 1,300
Union City: 11,000
Woodland Mills: 300
Kenton: 1,200

So the city populations total to 18,425. Remaining Obion County population is 13,575.

A city of 2,500 should not be expected to pay fire services for an additional 13,500 people. The damn county needs to provide the services.

[Surlethe]

Note how I said

I suspect that the sociopaths or idiots who do not pay but have the means are really a very tiny minority.

Do not make my position what it is not in your argument.

I'm arguing that practically nobody who needs the service cannot afford it. Ergo, those who do not buy the service are largely composed of those who do not pay but have the means. Our positions coincide if (as seems likely) the vast majority of homeowners covered by the offered service actually purchase it, and only those who are stupid enough to not pay lose a house to a fire and subsequently make the news. After all, there is usually more than one house fire per year in an entire county.