Why did the Christians cut Lilith out of the Creation Myth?

[The Yosemite Bear]

In the original version Adam and Lilith are created simultanously, and Lilith refuses to be a good submissive and gets banished. She becomes a major player in events later on having children with both Lucifer & Cain.

So, Why did the Christians cut her out?

[Captain tycho]

Lilith?
Don't you mean Eve?

[Tom_Aurum]

Oh good Goddess. No we don't mean eve. I've never done this myself mind you, but if you take the dead sea scrolls in the original hebrew, translate it on the spot, and a Bible and read it, you will hear two entirely different stories. The annoying little text which has been translated more times than webster's dictionary and preachers think they have the right to teach it as if it were an original historical text.

If you feel the need to preach about that god to me, have documented and annotated translation from the first edition. Gah.

[Tsyroc]

Lilith?
Don't you mean Eve?

No Lilith was Adam's first wife. She was made in the same way as Adam and not from a portion of Adam. When she wouldn't put up with taking Adam's orders she left and Adam whined to god so god then made Eve from Adam.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Nope!

Eve came later

In the Orthodox versions she's still there.

She's still in the Jewish and Islamic versions too.

Genesis
God creates Adam & Lilith
Adam Fucks Lilith, Lilith doesn't want to be fucked, so she kicks his ass
God Banishes Lilith, makes Eve as a replacement.

Lilith Shacks up with God's other Outcast Lucifer.
Eve and Adam get banished
Cain kills Abel
Cain gets Banished
Eve and Adam have 90 more kids

60 Years into Cain's immortal exile he runs into Lilith.
Cain and Lilith get together and found the first true city.
(As well as found the tendancy for Violence/Revenge/wars of conquest in humanity)

[von Neufeld]

Is Lilith in the Jewish Torah? Your question implies that but the sources I have checked doesn't mention anything but a short notice in Isaiah (34:14). Lilith seems to me a Talmudic inclusion, which means that she got included after the religion split.

Some good sources I found:
http://www.angelfire.com/biz4/vampyreresearch/lilt.html
http://storydynamics.com/Articles/Story ... drash.html

[jegs2]

In the original version Adam and Lilith are created simultanously, and Lilith refuses to be a good submissive and gets banished. She becomes a major player in events later on having children with both Lucifer & Cain.

So, Why did the Christians cut her out?

I've never heard of that story. I'll have to investigate it.

[Darth Gojira]

In the original version Adam and Lilith are created simultanously, and Lilith refuses to be a good submissive and gets banished. She becomes a major player in events later on having children with both Lucifer & Cain.

So, Why did the Christians cut her out?

The Christians were probably trying to attract women. Lilith seems to be a Jewish/Muslim example of how nonsubmissive women are "against God". A rationale for sexism.

[Stravo]

I'm pretty sure that the Lillith tale was excised from the official Tora and you can only find reference to it in the more obscure texts. The Lillith part of the tale seems to touch upon the deep primordial past when our society was matriarchal and women ran the show in terms of religion. Then there was a radical shift in which the society became patriarchal and all evidence of the matriarchal past was either buried deep in the text or excised completely.

The Vampire the Masquearde Game actually does a good job of researching the Liliith myth since it is integral in their mythology that Lillith helped Caine become the first Vampire. BUt once you get past that, there's some good nuggets of information there.

The Lillith character is extremely independent and powerful. She is her own woman, in fact she's smarter than Adam and won't take crap from him, is the first to be banished from Eden and goes to live in the land of Nod, seducing Lucifer along the way. Sounds a whole lot more of a complete woman than that first 2 dimensional character in literature, Eve.

[Gil Hamilton]

Lilith was also one of those myths the Hebrews picked up from the Babylonians, who got it from the Sumerians (she appears in the Epic of Gilgamesh). She is also in the Jewish Talmud. Of course, the Kabbala still have her as well.

I'm not sure why, but somewhere along the line Lilith was declared heresy by the Christian and some Jewish churches.

[Kelly Antilles]

I'm with Tom. Why can't we just take the original scripture of the Bible and translate it. Then we will have the True Story. Oh, but this would not work. It would go totally against the Christian faith. Bah.

[Darth Wong]

The Bible does not have too many strong female characters. That's just a natural consequence of a misogynist tribal culture.

[Kelly Antilles]

The Bible does not have too many strong female characters. That's just a natural consequence of a misogynist tribal culture.

That reminds me of the scene in Dogma when Muse is talking about the translation of the bible. The expanded version of that entire conversation is so interesting.

It's also interesting to note that Kevin Smith is a "devout" (as anyone gets these days) Catholic and still goes to mass. Yet he produces a movie with such diverse views on Christianity.

[salm]

It's also interesting to note that Kevin Smith is a "devout" (as anyone gets these days) Catholic and still goes to mass. Yet he produces a movie with such diverse views on Christianity.

one of the few people who don´t take themself too serious. nice characteristic.

[Bartman]

Why isn't Lilith in the Bible? Because she wasn't/isn't in the Torah.

In 90AD a group of Rabbis finalized the canon for the Torah at Jamnia. And while it is not universally accepted, Ethiopian Jews add the book of Jubilees and Enoch and some groups still use the Septuagint or the Samaritan versions, there is wide agreement as to which books the Jews accept as Scripture. And in none of these versions does Lilith appear. She remained a popular character in non-canonical writings, myths and folk tales but she was never part of the 'official' story.

When the Christians were later trying to resolve their own issues of canon. They simply adopted the pre-existing Jewish canon. For the Latin Church this was the Septuagint. The Ethiopians adopted the Ethiopian canon and most Protestants use the Jamnia canon. There is no reason to believe that the Christians would accept a Jewish story which even the Jews rejected as non-canonical, so Lilith was left out.

It is probably also not correct to refer to Lilith as the 'original version' when both existed side by side for centuries to millennia. We have no idea which was told around the campfire first, and both traditions appear to have existed for some time as oral traditions before they were put in a written form.

I've never done this myself mind you, but if you take the dead sea scrolls in the original hebrew, translate it on the spot, and a Bible and read it, you will hear two entirely different stories.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Portions of every Torah/Old Testament book except Esther have been found at Qumran. And except for some rare passages they agree syllable for syllable with the other sources. There are some completely original books, generally apocalyptic literature, but they were considered by the Qumran sect as new literature and not replacements for the older texts. Most new English translations of the Old Testament generally include footnotes actively documenting any inconsistencies between texts.

[Stormbringer]

That reminds me of the scene in Dogma when Muse is talking about the translation of the bible. The expanded version of that entire conversation is so interesting.

It's also interesting to note that Kevin Smith is a "devout" (as anyone gets these days) Catholic and still goes to mass. Yet he produces a movie with such diverse views on Christianity.

Great scene indeed.

And part of what makes Kevin Smith so interesting is that he's a devout Catholic but he's got an open mind and a working brain.

[Tsyroc]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Portions of every Torah/Old Testament book except Esther have been found at Qumran. And except for some rare passages they agree syllable for syllable with the other sources. There are some completely original books, generally apocalyptic literature, but they were considered by the Qumran sect as new literature and not replacements for the older texts. Most new English translations of the Old Testament generally include footnotes actively documenting any inconsistencies between texts.

I've read translations of some of those other books. Lots of rules for themselves. Stuff about how their specific group is the "true" group who's going to march into Jerusalem take control and kick the crap out of the Romans and [Brain]"Take Over the World[/Brain]. I might be confusing some of it with Monty Python's The Life of Brian since so much of the stuff dealing with the sects in that movie reminded me of those Qumran goofballs.

As for the "Bible" in the Dead Sea scrolls. Other than where one brief line was obviously miscopied the only difference between that version and later versions are just a few sylabols here and there. Now you could argue about translating that, since room for interpreting what they were saying.

Did Eve come from Adam's side or from his rib? "Though shalt not murder" is a little different than "Though shalt not kill". "Murder" seems more accurate and makes more sense considering the rest of the Bible.

[Superman]

Lilith comes from the Talmud not the Old Testament.

[Utsanomiko]

They also omitted Og from the sriptures. He was the only Nephilim to survive the flood, because the waters only went up to (iirc) his waist. There was even a part of the Noah's Ark story that said he sat on the Ark and demended to be fed oxen. Don't know what god did about that one.

Lilith was cool; I've got a game design that features a lot on demons, and I am *so* going to use her.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I'm pretty sure that the Lillith tale was excised from the official Tora and you can only find reference to it in the more obscure texts. The Lillith part of the tale seems to touch upon the deep primordial past when our society was matriarchal and women ran the show in terms of religion. Then there was a radical shift in which the society became patriarchal and all evidence of the matriarchal past was either buried deep in the text or excised completely.

The Vampire the Masquearde Game actually does a good job of researching the Liliith myth since it is integral in their mythology that Lillith helped Caine become the first Vampire. BUt once you get past that, there's some good nuggets of information there.

The Lillith character is extremely independent and powerful. She is her own woman, in fact she's smarter than Adam and won't take crap from him, is the first to be banished from Eden and goes to live in the land of Nod, seducing Lucifer along the way. Sounds a whole lot more of a complete woman than that first 2 dimensional character in literature, Eve.

There is also the possibility that, rather than matriarchal societies and the Lilith character being expunged from Biblical texts, these concepts were never there to begin with, but are recent inventions for the purpose of cococting a precedent for re-establishing a matriarchal society. Just my two cents.

[Darth Wong]

There is also the possibility that, rather than matriarchal societies and the Lilith character being expunged from Biblical texts, these concepts were never there to begin with, but are recent inventions for the purpose of cococting a precedent for re-establishing a matriarchal society. Just my two cents.

You're saying that the Dead Sea Scrolls depicting it are a forgery?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

There is also the possibility that, rather than matriarchal societies and the Lilith character being expunged from Biblical texts, these concepts were never there to begin with, but are recent inventions for the purpose of cococting a precedent for re-establishing a matriarchal society. Just my two cents.

You're saying that the Dead Sea Scrolls depicting it are a forgery?

Not necessarily; I'm open to the possibility that this concept set was included. I'm open to evidence -- but as I'm sure you appreciate, this news of an omitted character (who is not only superfluous to the standard account but whose traits run contrary to her "created purpose") is fairly recent news, and so I will exercise skepticism until I see reliable evidence to support the claim.

[jegs2]

The Bible does not have too many strong female characters. That's just a natural consequence of a misogynist tribal culture.

The strongest female character in the Bible, IMO, is Queen Ester.

http://www.ebible.org/bible/hnv/Esther.htm

[Utsanomiko]

Not necessarily; I'm open to the possibility that this concept set was included. I'm open to evidence -- but as I'm sure you appreciate, this news of an omitted character (who is not only superfluous to the standard account but whose traits run contrary to her "created purpose") is fairly recent news, and so I will exercise skepticism until I see reliable evidence to support the claim.

This is neiter news nor even remotely new. I've even known about her for years. She's in numerous Jewish sources, including the Talmud, Jewish mythology, and the Kaballah (iirc), and has been referred to for centuries in numerous other sources at the very least. Just becuase Chistisians didn't include a lot of stuff (or lumped all demons together into one 'mr devil') doesn't mean it's not there.

Hell, There's enough stuff in old texts about her for even the Japanese to research about, and Chirstianity is literally a qwazy alien religion there. But no, she did not look like how she does in my signature pic.

[Darth Servo]

The Bible does not have too many strong female characters. That's just a natural consequence of a misogynist tribal culture.

The strongest female character in the Bible, IMO, is Queen Ester.

http://www.ebible.org/bible/hnv/Esther.htm

Which just goes to prove DW's point. Even the strongest female characters in the bible were still subservient to their husbands. She risked her own life just by entering the presence of her husband, the king.