114,500 GRT cruise ship capsized in Italy

[Thanas]

Dining with first class passengers is expected of any captain these days, in fact it may even be a contractual duty. There is nothing wrong with that, especially as crew rotations are designed to have the captain off during these hours.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Dining with first class passengers is expected of any captain these days, in fact it may even be a contractual duty. There is nothing wrong with that, especially as crew rotations are designed to have the captain off during these hours.

I'm just wondering what's going on that the line insists he was on the bridge when that would be an acceptable and straightforward explanation.

[Thanas]

Probably do not want to look bad in the eyes of the public. It may also be a misunderstanding, seeing as how some liners operate with multiple officers that have the rank of captain. So they might have one captain or senior captain who was dining with the passengers while the captain in charge of this specific duty shift was indeed on the bridge.

[CJvR]

Ships are not really supposed to sink on the side away from the damage, because flooding on one side causes a list to that side, not to the opposite side of the ship.

Perhaps they overdid the counter flooding.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Ships are not really supposed to sink on the side away from the damage, because flooding on one side causes a list to that side, not to the opposite side of the ship.

Perhaps they overdid the counter flooding.

Do you think they really have the ability to counterflood on a cruise liner? I'd hope so, but I sort of doubt it, and really the ship should be designed to naturally sink on an even keel precisely to protect against this.

[Sky Captain]

The ship was 4 nautical miles off course

WTF How that could happen with all the modern navigation tools in what seems to be good weather conditons? My cheapo handheld GPS receiver can be set to sound an alarm if I go off course too much. Even if all their navigation computers spontanously exploded officer on watch should have seen the ship is going too close to land. There is even a lighthouse few hundred meters from their crash site. There is also no reports of fog or rain that could have restricted visibility.

Do you think they really have the ability to counterflood on a cruise liner? I'd hope so, but I sort of doubt it, and really the ship should be designed to naturally sink on an even keel precisely to protect against this.

They should have seperate ballast tanks on port and starboard sides although I have no idea if they are large enough to make difference in situation like this.

[tim31]

"At about 20:00, passengers were in the dining hall when there was a sudden loud bang, which a crew member (speaking over the intercom) ascribed to an "electrical failure". An hour later a general emergency was announced; those on board said the boat suddenly listed to the port side"

Source here, though the above line comes from the ship's wikipedia entry. Accident investigation on this one is going to be very interesting in terms of what actually happened in that hour.

As for the arrest of the skipper, it'd be the same anywhere in terms of duty of care. If I was chief warden during a building evacuation and someone was left behind by lapse of proper procedure, I'd be facing a coronial inquest. And I'm a hotel manager, not captain of a cruise ship the size of a city block.

[CJvR]

Divers have so far managed to extract 3 more survivors from the ship during the night. A Korean couple and one of the ships pursers.

[Teebs]

The Guardian has some disturbing stuff about the allegedly botched evacuation.

Apparently one mother found her children left alone in the creche after the alarm was sounded. In another case a former sailor (passenger) had to take over a lifeboat due to the crew member's inability to lower it into the sea.

[Broomstick]

I found this disturbing:

A search through every cabin continued on Sunday, amid fears that the electronic locks on cabin doors opened by credit card locks automatically locked shut during the blackouts on board the vessel as passengers clamoured to be allowed on to lifeboats.

Electronic locks should default to open, not locked, because of just such emergencies. People need to be able to get out during a catastrophe like fire or sinking.

[CJvR]

It is obviously much more important to prevent theft, unlike sinking thievery do happen and you will get bad PR and damages claims from it...

ps: The electronic locks on ships I have sailed with generally opens mechanically from the inside of the cabin, it would be a strange design that didn't have such a basic feature.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Leaving aside HOW exactly such a large ship suck so quick and got so muich damage...
A bigger question seems to be the panic and confusion of the crew.

I am willing to bet that a great many cruise ships out there have become VERY lazy when it comes to racticing safty drills. I would imagine there is a large sense of 'It's modern times! that doesn't happen any more!" That keeps many crews from practicing more often.

We have accounts of crew members panicking. Of handeling the life boats inncorectly. Of telling passengers to go to the side listign INTO the water instead of the side facing away (All the lifeboats on the side listing into had become useless)

So over all, I am betting that many ships out there would have similar panic because they just do't think it could happen to them.

[Sky Captain]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ja ... NETTXT3487

There are claims that there were some sort of explosion shortly before the crash that caused power failure which could also caused steering systems to become inoperative.

[Broomstick]

It is obviously much more important to prevent theft, unlike sinking thievery do happen and you will get bad PR and damages claims from it...

ps: The electronic locks on ships I have sailed with generally opens mechanically from the inside of the cabin, it would be a strange design that didn't have such a basic feature.

A mechanical over-ride inside the cabin is also entirely acceptable - the point is, people won't be trapped inside during an emergency.

[Broomstick]

Leaving aside HOW exactly such a large ship suck so quick and got so muich damage...
A bigger question seems to be the panic and confusion of the crew.

Crew people are human beings, too. With a crew of 1000+ you'd almost except a few to panic. The important thing is that you have enough functioning to conduct the evaucation.

We have accounts of crew members panicking. Of handeling the life boats inncorectly. Of telling passengers to go to the side listign INTO the water instead of the side facing away (All the lifeboats on the side listing into had become useless)

So over all, I am betting that many ships out there would have similar panic because they just do't think it could happen to them.

I also suspect the evacuation could have been started an hour earlier. Perhaps they should have started thinking about the possibility as soon as the lights went out the first time - or maybe they did, but waited to act on it. Apparently, some passengers asked about lifeboats and evacuating but the crew told them "No, you can't, the captain hasn't given permission" so it's not like the passengers weren't thinking along those lines.

Perhaps, on such a large ship, where there are so many people the sheer numbers can complicate things, there should be a "yellow alert" stage where passengers are told "just a precaution" to stay awake, get dressed, and be prepared to evacuate, much as on airliners drink/meal service might be cancelled and passengers told to stay buckled into their seats as a precaution. Perhaps a reminder to stay calm, follow crew directives, and recall where the emergency exits/life boats/etc. are, then a reassuring announcement that the crew is working on the situation, we apologize for the inconvenience, etc. Perhaps allow the very concerned, or the old/feeble/disabled to have a seat in a deck chair near the lifeboats. I don't know. But I get the impression they waited too long to start evacuating, and then ran into problems and panic.

But it's just a notion, and I'm no expert - I could be wrong. I just think this whole thing could have been managed better. By the time the ship was listing 20 degrees and several hundred people had either dove into the ocean or fallen off the boat into the water, though, the chances of an orderly evacuation were nil.

[aieeegrunt]

Divers have so far managed to extract 3 more survivors from the ship during the night. A Korean couple and one of the ships pursers.

Why would divers be needed? The wreck looks mostly above water to me.

[S.L.Acker]

Divers have so far managed to extract 3 more survivors from the ship during the night. A Korean couple and one of the ships pursers.

Why would divers be needed? The wreck looks mostly above water to me.

There are flooded sections and even a wreck that seems stable can go sideways so better to send divers in.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It's about 20% above water by volume at most.

Anyway, total electrical power loss has happened on ships with electric propulsion before. I believe the first time the problem was recognized was when USS Saratoga took a torpedo in early 1942 and the shock damage tripped her main busbar. It never led to the loss of a US Navy vessel with electric propulsion, however, probably because the 1910s-vintage brass and copper busbars were far less fragile and the crews were vigorously trained in damage control and emergency response. I suspect that since electric power in merchant ships is a relatively newer development that there might not be international requirements for the resistance of the electrical power distribution system to damage. In general merchants are far less capable of taking even incidental damage like this than warships, but ocean liners traditionally were built closer to warships, both because they were auxiliary cruisers but also because they were carrying living people.

The real problem at this point though is the crew. A bad ship can be saved by a good crew, and a good ship doomed by a bad crew. Their performance during the evacuation is Not Inspiring to suggest they could have dealt with such a problem. And I'm wondering why the Captain didn't report this damage during his interrogation, unless it's intentionally being held by both the government and the captain and his lawyers; if that's the case I wonder why?

[Mr. Coffee]

I And I'm wondering why the Captain didn't report this damage during his interrogation, unless it's intentionally being held by both the government and the captain and his lawyers; if that's the case I wonder why?

Just a guess, but I'm willing to bet its either being withheld until a formal investigation can be completed or it's standard CYA procedure. Maybe a bit of both.

[Broomstick]

Divers have so far managed to extract 3 more survivors from the ship during the night. A Korean couple and one of the ships pursers.

Why would divers be needed? The wreck looks mostly above water to me.

There are flooded sections and even a wreck that seems stable can go sideways so better to send divers in.

And, unfortunately, it is entirely possible that some of the unaccounted for are in the flooded sections, deceased. Their relatives would like to know for certain, and likely would also like the bodies retrieved if possible. I do hope that is not the case, but it needs to be checked out if it can be done without undue hazard.

[Kryten]

And, unfortunately, it is entirely possible that some of the unaccounted for are in the flooded sections, deceased.

At least two of them were; Link

Emergency teams have found two more bodies in the partially submerged Costa Concordia cruise liner that sank off the western coast of Italy.

It brings to five those known to have died after the ship, carrying more than 4,000 people, hit rocks on Friday.

The coastguard said divers had found the bodies of two unidentified elderly men trapped in a flooded area.

Earlier three survivors were found, more than 24 hours after the ship ran aground near a Tuscan island.

Coastguard spokesman Filipino Marin said the two elderly victims were "found on the third floor in a meeting area section of the ship".

He said the bodies were being taken to the mainland for identification.

Shortly before they were recovered, Tuscan regional official Enrich Rossi said 17 people remained unaccounted for.

[Spoonist]

Divers have so far managed to extract 3 more survivors from the ship during the night. A Korean couple and one of the ships pursers.

Why would divers be needed? The wreck looks mostly above water to me.

Like they said above, with a lilt like that you are flooding everything below the waterline, however that means airpockets. Where potential survivors can be.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16564789

The honeymooning South Korean couple were located after rescuers heard voices from a cabin two decks down on the half-submerged ship late on Saturday. They were reached a few hours later.

The couple, both 29 years old, were both in good health when they were brought ashore.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

And, unfortunately, it is entirely possible that some of the unaccounted for are in the flooded sections, deceased. Their relatives would like to know for certain, and likely would also like the bodies retrieved if possible. I do hope that is not the case, but it needs to be checked out if it can be done without undue hazard.

At this point 5 bodies have been recovered and after the rescues and confirming where some unaccounted for passengers went on the island, the toll of missing is reduced to 15. Unfortunately they have apparently searched all of the ship above water and now the divers are working the below-water portions hoping for air pockets. Of that number six are engine room crew and probably almost certainly dead when the hull was opened; it's miraculous enough that's all of the engine room crews which were unaccounted for, though engine room crews these days are a lot less than even a few decades ago.

Note that the South Koreans were rescued above water, as was the purser.

[JME2]

Been following this with interest all weekend. While it could have been worse, this will probably end up a maritime fuck-up for the books.

[tim31]

Still nowhere near as bad as a typical RORO accident in terms of loss of life.

Small mercies.