Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

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General Brock
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by General Brock »

Alphawolf55 wrote:...
Except my problem with Paul isn't that he won't outright work to improve those things, he'll set us back 50 years on those things. Obama at least inches us closer to the goals we need to achieve, Ron Paul decides they're not important and destroys the way.
... Which 'we' are you talking about... Obama's not even obstructing the erosion - no make that the wipeout - of civil liberties. It is known Obama promised to protect American freedoms and reneged on that promise. His oath of office bind him... oh, wait, I guess you could argue the document is well-protected even if the words aren't heeded. Never mind.

Paul has promised to restore rule by the Constitution. Whether or not he can or will remains unknown and sadly may remain unknown, and the America that was, that he experienced longer than most people on this board, will be forgotten and eventually lost to living memory.

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... print.html
10 reasons the U.S. is no longer the land of the free
By Jonathan Turley,

Every year, the State Department issues reports on individual rights in other countries, monitoring the passage of restrictive laws and regulations around the world. Iran, for example, has been criticized for denying fair public trials and limiting privacy, while Russia has been taken to task for undermining due process. Other countries have been condemned for the use of secret evidence and torture.

Even as we pass judgment on countries we consider unfree, Americans remain confident that any definition of a free nation must include their own — the land of free. Yet, the laws and practices of the land should shake that confidence. In the decade since Sept. 11, 2001, this country has comprehensively reduced civil liberties in the name of an expanded security state. The most recent example of this was the National Defense Authorization Act, signed Dec. 31, which allows for the indefinite detention of citizens. At what point does the reduction of individual rights in our country change how we define ourselves?

While each new national security power Washington has embraced was controversial when enacted, they are often discussed in isolation. But they don’t operate in isolation. They form a mosaic of powers under which our country could be considered, at least in part, authoritarian. Americans often proclaim our nation as a symbol of freedom to the world while dismissing nations such as Cuba and China as categorically unfree. Yet, objectively, we may be only half right. Those countries do lack basic individual rights such as due process, placing them outside any reasonable definition of “free,” but the United States now has much more in common with such regimes than anyone may like to admit.

These countries also have constitutions that purport to guarantee freedoms and rights. But their governments have broad discretion in denying those rights and few real avenues for challenges by citizens — precisely the problem with the new laws in this country.

The list of powers acquired by the U.S. government since 9/11 puts us in rather troubling company.

Assassination of U.S. citizens

President Obama has claimed, as President George W. Bush did before him, the right to order the killing of any citizen considered a terrorist or an abettor of terrorism. Last year, he approved the killing of U.S. citizen Anwar al-Awlaqi and another citizen under this claimed inherent authority. Last month, administration officials affirmed that power, stating that the president can order the assassination of any citizen whom he considers allied with terrorists. (Nations such as Nigeria, Iran and Syria have been routinely criticized for extrajudicial killings of enemies of the state.)

Indefinite detention

Under the law signed last month, terrorism suspects are to be held by the military; the president also has the authority to indefinitely detain citizens accused of terrorism. While the administration claims that this provision only codified existing law, experts widely contest this view, and the administration has opposed efforts to challenge such authority in federal courts. The government continues to claim the right to strip citizens of legal protections based on its sole discretion. (China recently codified a more limited detention law for its citizens, while countries such as Cambodia have been singled out by the United States for “prolonged detention.”)

Arbitrary justice

The president now decides whether a person will receive a trial in the federal courts or in a military tribunal, a system that has been ridiculed around the world for lacking basic due process protections. Bush claimed this authority in 2001, and Obama has continued the practice. (Egypt and China have been denounced for maintaining separate military justice systems for selected defendants, including civilians.)

Warrantless searches

The president may now order warrantless surveillance, including a new capability to force companies and organizations to turn over information on citizens’ finances, communications and associations. Bush acquired this sweeping power under the Patriot Act in 2001, and in 2011, Obama extended the power, including searches of everything from business documents to library records. The government can use “national security letters” to demand, without probable cause, that organizations turn over information on citizens — and order them not to reveal the disclosure to the affected party. (Saudi Arabia and Pakistan operate under laws that allow the government to engage in widespread discretionary surveillance.)

Secret evidence

The government now routinely uses secret evidence to detain individuals and employs secret evidence in federal and military courts. It also forces the dismissal of cases against the United States by simply filing declarations that the cases would make the government reveal classified information that would harm national security — a claim made in a variety of privacy lawsuits and largely accepted by federal judges without question. Even legal opinions, cited as the basis for the government’s actions under the Bush and Obama administrations, have been classified. This allows the government to claim secret legal arguments to support secret proceedings using secret evidence. In addition, some cases never make it to court at all. The federal courts routinely deny constitutional challenges to policies and programs under a narrow definition of standing to bring a case.

War crimes

The world clamored for prosecutions of those responsible for waterboarding terrorism suspects during the Bush administration, but the Obama administration said in 2009 that it would not allow CIA employees to be investigated or prosecuted for such actions. This gutted not just treaty obligations but the Nuremberg principles of international law. When courts in countries such as Spain moved to investigate Bush officials for war crimes, the Obama administration reportedly urged foreign officials not to allow such cases to proceed, despite the fact that the United States has long claimed the same authority with regard to alleged war criminals in other countries. (Various nations have resisted investigations of officials accused of war crimes and torture. Some, such as Serbia and Chile, eventually relented to comply with international law; countries that have denied independent investigations include Iran, Syria and China.)

Secret court

The government has increased its use of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has expanded its secret warrants to include individuals deemed to be aiding or abetting hostile foreign governments or organizations. In 2011, Obama renewed these powers, including allowing secret searches of individuals who are not part of an identifiable terrorist group. The administration has asserted the right to ignore congressional limits on such surveillance. (Pakistan places national security surveillance under the unchecked powers of the military or intelligence services.)

Immunity from judicial review

Like the Bush administration, the Obama administration has successfully pushed for immunity for companies that assist in warrantless surveillance of citizens, blocking the ability of citizens to challenge the violation of privacy. (Similarly, China has maintained sweeping immunity claims both inside and outside the country and routinely blocks lawsuits against private companies.)

Continual monitoring of citizens

The Obama administration has successfully defended its claim that it can use GPS devices to monitor every move of targeted citizens without securing any court order or review. (Saudi Arabia has installed massive public surveillance systems, while Cuba is notorious for active monitoring of selected citizens.)

Extraordinary renditions

The government now has the ability to transfer both citizens and noncitizens to another country under a system known as extraordinary rendition, which has been denounced as using other countries, such as Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan, to torture suspects. The Obama administration says it is not continuing the abuses of this practice under Bush, but it insists on the unfettered right to order such transfers — including the possible transfer of U.S. citizens.

These new laws have come with an infusion of money into an expanded security system on the state and federal levels, including more public surveillance cameras, tens of thousands of security personnel and a massive expansion of a terrorist-chasing bureaucracy.

Some politicians shrug and say these increased powers are merely a response to the times we live in. Thus, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) could declare in an interview last spring without objection that “free speech is a great idea, but we’re in a war.” Of course, terrorism will never “surrender” and end this particular “war.”

Other politicians rationalize that, while such powers may exist, it really comes down to how they are used. This is a common response by liberals who cannot bring themselves to denounce Obama as they did Bush. Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), for instance, has insisted that Congress is not making any decision on indefinite detention: “That is a decision which we leave where it belongs — in the executive branch.”

And in a signing statement with the defense authorization bill, Obama said he does not intend to use the latest power to indefinitely imprison citizens. Yet, he still accepted the power as a sort of regretful autocrat.

An authoritarian nation is defined not just by the use of authoritarian powers, but by the ability to use them. If a president can take away your freedom or your life on his own authority, all rights become little more than a discretionary grant subject to executive will.

The framers lived under autocratic rule and understood this danger better than we do. James Madison famously warned that we needed a system that did not depend on the good intentions or motivations of our rulers: “If men were angels, no government would be necessary.”

Benjamin Franklin was more direct. In 1787, a Mrs. Powel confronted Franklin after the signing of the Constitution and asked, “Well, Doctor, what have we got — a republic or a monarchy?” His response was a bit chilling: “A republic, Madam, if you can keep it.”

Since 9/11, we have created the very government the framers feared: a government with sweeping and largely unchecked powers resting on the hope that they will be used wisely.

The indefinite-detention provision in the defense authorization bill seemed to many civil libertarians like a betrayal by Obama. While the president had promised to veto the law over that provision, Levin, a sponsor of the bill, disclosed on the Senate floor that it was in fact the White House that approved the removal of any exception for citizens from indefinite detention.

Dishonesty from politicians is nothing new for Americans. The real question is whether we are lying to ourselves when we call this country the land of the free.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro professor of public interest law at George Washington University.

Look, every nation has a kind of self-ascribed purpose; call it a national myth but its more than that. It gives its people pride of purpose that the geographical boundaries within which they live is more than a convenience, its a community of shared wisdom and applied values. Some, such as America's, are very influential. Let's go back in time to when America was last asked to live up to its Constitution:

Link: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html
Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence
By Rev. Martin Luther King
4 April 1967

Speech delivered by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., on April 4, 1967, at a meeting of Clergy and Laity Concerned at Riverside Church in New York City

[Please put links to this speech on your respective web sites and if possible, place the text itself there. This is the least well known of Dr. King's speeches among the masses, and it needs to be read by all]

http://www.ssc.msu.edu/~sw/mlk/brkslnc.htm

I come to this magnificent house of worship tonight because my conscience leaves me no other choice. I join with you in this meeting because I am in deepest agreement with the aims and work of the organization which has brought us together: Clergy and Laymen Concerned about Vietnam. The recent statement of your executive committee are the sentiments of my own heart and I found myself in full accord when I read its opening lines: "A time comes when silence is betrayal." That time has come for us in relation to Vietnam.

The truth of these words is beyond doubt but the mission to which they call us is a most difficult one. Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government's policy, especially in time of war. Nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist thought within one's own bosom and in the surrounding world. Moreover when the issues at hand seem as perplexed as they often do in the case of this dreadful conflict we are always on the verge of being mesmerized by uncertainty; but we must move on.

Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak. And we must rejoice as well, for surely this is the first time in our nation's history that a significant number of its religious leaders have chosen to move beyond the prophesying of smooth patriotism to the high grounds of a firm dissent based upon the mandates of conscience and the reading of history. Perhaps a new spirit is rising among us. If it is, let us trace its movement well and pray that our own inner being may be sensitive to its guidance, for we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us.

Over the past two years, as I have moved to break the betrayal of my own silences and to speak from the burnings of my own heart, as I have called for radical departures from the destruction of Vietnam, many persons have questioned me about the wisdom of my path. At the heart of their concerns this query has often loomed large and loud: Why are you speaking about war, Dr. King? Why are you joining the voices of dissent? Peace and civil rights don't mix, they say. Aren't you hurting the cause of your people, they ask? And when I hear them, though I often understand the source of their concern, I am nevertheless greatly saddened, for such questions mean that the inquirers have not really known me, my commitment or my calling. Indeed, their questions suggest that they do not know the world in which they live.

In the light of such tragic misunderstandings, I deem it of signal importance to try to state clearly, and I trust concisely, why I believe that the path from Dexter Avenue Baptist Church -- the church in Montgomery, Alabama, where I began my pastorate -- leads clearly to this sanctuary tonight.

I come to this platform tonight to make a passionate plea to my beloved nation. This speech is not addressed to Hanoi or to the National Liberation Front. It is not addressed to China or to Russia.

Nor is it an attempt to overlook the ambiguity of the total situation and the need for a collective solution to the tragedy of Vietnam. Neither is it an attempt to make North Vietnam or the National Liberation Front paragons of virtue, nor to overlook the role they can play in a successful resolution of the problem. While they both may have justifiable reason to be suspicious of the good faith of the United States, life and history give eloquent testimony to the fact that conflicts are never resolved without trustful give and take on both sides.

Tonight, however, I wish not to speak with Hanoi and the NLF, but rather to my fellow Americans, who, with me, bear the greatest responsibility in ending a conflict that has exacted a heavy price on both continents.
The Importance of Vietnam

Since I am a preacher by trade, I suppose it is not surprising that I have seven major reasons for bringing Vietnam into the field of my moral vision. There is at the outset a very obvious and almost facile connection between the war in Vietnam and the struggle I, and others, have been waging in America. A few years ago there was a shining moment in that struggle. It seemed as if there was a real promise of hope for the poor -- both black and white -- through the poverty program. There were experiments, hopes, new beginnings. Then came the buildup in Vietnam and I watched the program broken and eviscerated as if it were some idle political plaything of a society gone mad on war, and I knew that America would never invest the necessary funds or energies in rehabilitation of its poor so long as adventures like Vietnam continued to draw men and skills and money like some demonic destructive suction tube. So I was increasingly compelled to see the war as an enemy of the poor and to attack it as such.

Perhaps the more tragic recognition of reality took place when it became clear to me that the war was doing far more than devastating the hopes of the poor at home. It was sending their sons and their brothers and their husbands to fight and to die in extraordinarily high proportions relative to the rest of the population. We were taking the black young men who had been crippled by our society and sending them eight thousand miles away to guarantee liberties in Southeast Asia which they had not found in southwest Georgia and East Harlem. So we have been repeatedly faced with the cruel irony of watching Negro and white boys on TV screens as they kill and die together for a nation that has been unable to seat them together in the same schools. So we watch them in brutal solidarity burning the huts of a poor village, but we realize that they would never live on the same block in Detroit. I could not be silent in the face of such cruel manipulation of the poor.

My third reason moves to an even deeper level of awareness, for it grows out of my experience in the ghettoes of the North over the last three years -- especially the last three summers. As I have walked among the desperate, rejected and angry young men I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through nonviolent action. But they asked -- and rightly so -- what about Vietnam? They asked if our own nation wasn't using massive doses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government. For the sake of those boys, for the sake of this government, for the sake of hundreds of thousands trembling under our violence, I cannot be silent.

For those who ask the question, "Aren't you a civil rights leader?" and thereby mean to exclude me from the movement for peace, I have this further answer. In 1957 when a group of us formed the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, we chose as our motto: "To save the soul of America." We were convinced that we could not limit our vision to certain rights for black people, but instead affirmed the conviction that America would never be free or saved from itself unless the descendants of its slaves were loosed completely from the shackles they still wear. In a way we were agreeing with Langston Hughes, that black bard of Harlem, who had written earlier:

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Now, it should be incandescently clear that no one who has any concern for the integrity and life of America today can ignore the present war. If America's soul becomes totally poisoned, part of the autopsy must read Vietnam. It can never be saved so long as it destroys the deepest hopes of men the world over. So it is that those of us who are yet determined that America will be are led down the path of protest and dissent, working for the health of our land.

As if the weight of such a commitment to the life and health of America were not enough, another burden of responsibility was placed upon me in 1964; and I cannot forget that the Nobel Prize for Peace was also a commission -- a commission to work harder than I had ever worked before for "the brotherhood of man." This is a calling that takes me beyond national allegiances, but even if it were not present I would yet have to live with the meaning of my commitment to the ministry of Jesus Christ. To me the relationship of this ministry to the making of peace is so obvious that I sometimes marvel at those who ask me why I am speaking against the war. Could it be that they do not know that the good news was meant for all men -- for Communist and capitalist, for their children and ours, for black and for white, for revolutionary and conservative? Have they forgotten that my ministry is in obedience to the one who loved his enemies so fully that he died for them? What then can I say to the "Vietcong" or to Castro or to Mao as a faithful minister of this one? Can I threaten them with death or must I not share with them my life?

Finally, as I try to delineate for you and for myself the road that leads from Montgomery to this place I would have offered all that was most valid if I simply said that I must be true to my conviction that I share with all men the calling to be a son of the living God. Beyond the calling of race or nation or creed is this vocation of sonship and brotherhood, and because I believe that the Father is deeply concerned especially for his suffering and helpless and outcast children, I come tonight to speak for them.

This I believe to be the privilege and the burden of all of us who deem ourselves bound by allegiances and loyalties which are broader and deeper than nationalism and which go beyond our nation's self-defined goals and positions. We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy, for no document from human hands can make these humans any less our brothers.
Strange Liberators

And as I ponder the madness of Vietnam and search within myself for ways to understand and respond to compassion my mind goes constantly to the people of that peninsula. I speak now not of the soldiers of each side, not of the junta in Saigon, but simply of the people who have been living under the curse of war for almost three continuous decades now. I think of them too because it is clear to me that there will be no meaningful solution there until some attempt is made to know them and hear their broken cries.

They must see Americans as strange liberators. The Vietnamese people proclaimed their own independence in 1945 after a combined French and Japanese occupation, and before the Communist revolution in China. They were led by Ho Chi Minh. Even though they quoted the American Declaration of Independence in their own document of freedom, we refused to recognize them. Instead, we decided to support France in its reconquest of her former colony.

Our government felt then that the Vietnamese people were not "ready" for independence, and we again fell victim to the deadly Western arrogance that has poisoned the international atmosphere for so long. With that tragic decision we rejected a revolutionary government seeking self-determination, and a government that had been established not by China (for whom the Vietnamese have no great love) but by clearly indigenous forces that included some Communists. For the peasants this new government meant real land reform, one of the most important needs in their lives.

For nine years following 1945 we denied the people of Vietnam the right of independence. For nine years we vigorously supported the French in their abortive effort to recolonize Vietnam.

Before the end of the war we were meeting eighty percent of the French war costs. Even before the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu, they began to despair of the reckless action, but we did not. We encouraged them with our huge financial and military supplies to continue the war even after they had lost the will. Soon we would be paying almost the full costs of this tragic attempt at recolonization.

After the French were defeated it looked as if independence and land reform would come again through the Geneva agreements. But instead there came the United States, determined that Ho should not unify the temporarily divided nation, and the peasants watched again as we supported one of the most vicious modern dictators -- our chosen man, Premier Diem. The peasants watched and cringed as Diem ruthlessly routed out all opposition, supported their extortionist landlords and refused even to discuss reunification with the north. The peasants watched as all this was presided over by U.S. influence and then by increasing numbers of U.S. troops who came to help quell the insurgency that Diem's methods had aroused. When Diem was overthrown they may have been happy, but the long line of military dictatorships seemed to offer no real change -- especially in terms of their need for land and peace.

The only change came from America as we increased our troop commitments in support of governments which were singularly corrupt, inept and without popular support. All the while the people read our leaflets and received regular promises of peace and democracy -- and land reform. Now they languish under our bombs and consider us -- not their fellow Vietnamese --the real enemy. They move sadly and apathetically as we herd them off the land of their fathers into concentration camps where minimal social needs are rarely met. They know they must move or be destroyed by our bombs. So they go -- primarily women and children and the aged.

They watch as we poison their water, as we kill a million acres of their crops. They must weep as the bulldozers roar through their areas preparing to destroy the precious trees. They wander into the hospitals, with at least twenty casualties from American firepower for one "Vietcong"-inflicted injury. So far we may have killed a million of them -- mostly children. They wander into the towns and see thousands of the children, homeless, without clothes, running in packs on the streets like animals. They see the children, degraded by our soldiers as they beg for food. They see the children selling their sisters to our soldiers, soliciting for their mothers.

What do the peasants think as we ally ourselves with the landlords and as we refuse to put any action into our many words concerning land reform? What do they think as we test our latest weapons on them, just as the Germans tested out new medicine and new tortures in the concentration camps of Europe? Where are the roots of the independent Vietnam we claim to be building? Is it among these voiceless ones?

We have destroyed their two most cherished institutions: the family and the village. We have destroyed their land and their crops. We have cooperated in the crushing of the nation's only non-Communist revolutionary political force -- the unified Buddhist church. We have supported the enemies of the peasants of Saigon. We have corrupted their women and children and killed their men. What liberators?

Now there is little left to build on -- save bitterness. Soon the only solid physical foundations remaining will be found at our military bases and in the concrete of the concentration camps we call fortified hamlets. The peasants may well wonder if we plan to build our new Vietnam on such grounds as these? Could we blame them for such thoughts? We must speak for them and raise the questions they cannot raise. These too are our brothers.

Perhaps the more difficult but no less necessary task is to speak for those who have been designated as our enemies. What of the National Liberation Front -- that strangely anonymous group we call VC or Communists? What must they think of us in America when they realize that we permitted the repression and cruelty of Diem which helped to bring them into being as a resistance group in the south? What do they think of our condoning the violence which led to their own taking up of arms? How can they believe in our integrity when now we speak of "aggression from the north" as if there were nothing more essential to the war? How can they trust us when now we charge them with violence after the murderous reign of Diem and charge them with violence while we pour every new weapon of death into their land? Surely we must understand their feelings even if we do not condone their actions. Surely we must see that the men we supported pressed them to their violence. Surely we must see that our own computerized plans of destruction simply dwarf their greatest acts.

How do they judge us when our officials know that their membership is less than twenty-five percent Communist and yet insist on giving them the blanket name? What must they be thinking when they know that we are aware of their control of major sections of Vietnam and yet we appear ready to allow national elections in which this highly organized political parallel government will have no part? They ask how we can speak of free elections when the Saigon press is censored and controlled by the military junta. And they are surely right to wonder what kind of new government we plan to help form without them -- the only party in real touch with the peasants. They question our political goals and they deny the reality of a peace settlement from which they will be excluded. Their questions are frighteningly relevant. Is our nation planning to build on political myth again and then shore it up with the power of new violence?

Here is the true meaning and value of compassion and nonviolence when it helps us to see the enemy's point of view, to hear his questions, to know his assessment of ourselves. For from his view we may indeed see the basic weaknesses of our own condition, and if we are mature, we may learn and grow and profit from the wisdom of the brothers who are called the opposition.

So, too, with Hanoi. In the north, where our bombs now pummel the land, and our mines endanger the waterways, we are met by a deep but understandable mistrust. To speak for them is to explain this lack of confidence in Western words, and especially their distrust of American intentions now. In Hanoi are the men who led the nation to independence against the Japanese and the French, the men who sought membership in the French commonwealth and were betrayed by the weakness of Paris and the willfulness of the colonial armies. It was they who led a second struggle against French domination at tremendous costs, and then were persuaded to give up the land they controlled between the thirteenth and seventeenth parallel as a temporary measure at Geneva. After 1954 they watched us conspire with Diem to prevent elections which would have surely brought Ho Chi Minh to power over a united Vietnam, and they realized they had been betrayed again.

When we ask why they do not leap to negotiate, these things must be remembered. Also it must be clear that the leaders of Hanoi considered the presence of American troops in support of the Diem regime to have been the initial military breach of the Geneva agreements concerning foreign troops, and they remind us that they did not begin to send in any large number of supplies or men until American forces had moved into the tens of thousands.

Hanoi remembers how our leaders refused to tell us the truth about the earlier North Vietnamese overtures for peace, how the president claimed that none existed when they had clearly been made. Ho Chi Minh has watched as America has spoken of peace and built up its forces, and now he has surely heard of the increasing international rumors of American plans for an invasion of the north. He knows the bombing and shelling and mining we are doing are part of traditional pre-invasion strategy. Perhaps only his sense of humor and of irony can save him when he hears the most powerful nation of the world speaking of aggression as it drops thousands of bombs on a poor weak nation more than eight thousand miles away from its shores.

At this point I should make it clear that while I have tried in these last few minutes to give a voice to the voiceless on Vietnam and to understand the arguments of those who are called enemy, I am as deeply concerned about our troops there as anything else. For it occurs to me that what we are submitting them to in Vietnam is not simply the brutalizing process that goes on in any war where armies face each other and seek to destroy. We are adding cynicism to the process of death, for they must know after a short period there that none of the things we claim to be fighting for are really involved. Before long they must know that their government has sent them into a struggle among Vietnamese, and the more sophisticated surely realize that we are on the side of the wealthy and the secure while we create hell for the poor.
This Madness Must Cease

Somehow this madness must cease. We must stop now. I speak as a child of God and brother to the suffering poor of Vietnam. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. I speak for the poor of America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home and death and corruption in Vietnam. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world as it stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours.

This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words:

"Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism."

If we continue, there will be no doubt in my mind and in the mind of the world that we have no honorable intentions in Vietnam. It will become clear that our minimal expectation is to occupy it as an American colony and men will not refrain from thinking that our maximum hope is to goad China into a war so that we may bomb her nuclear installations. If we do not stop our war against the people of Vietnam immediately the world will be left with no other alternative than to see this as some horribly clumsy and deadly game we have decided to play.

The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people. The situation is one in which we must be ready to turn sharply from our present ways.

In order to atone for our sins and errors in Vietnam, we should take the initiative in bringing a halt to this tragic war. I would like to suggest five concrete things that our government should do immediately to begin the long and difficult process of extricating ourselves from this nightmarish conflict:

1. End all bombing in North and South Vietnam.
2. Declare a unilateral cease-fire in the hope that such action will create the atmosphere for negotiation.
3. Take immediate steps to prevent other battlegrounds in Southeast Asia by curtailing our military buildup in Thailand and our interference in Laos.
4. Realistically accept the fact that the National Liberation Front has substantial support in South Vietnam and must thereby play a role in any meaningful negotiations and in any future Vietnam government.
5. Set a date that we will remove all foreign troops from Vietnam in accordance with the 1954 Geneva agreement.

Part of our ongoing commitment might well express itself in an offer to grant asylum to any Vietnamese who fears for his life under a new regime which included the Liberation Front. Then we must make what reparations we can for the damage we have done. We most provide the medical aid that is badly needed, making it available in this country if necessary.
Protesting The War

Meanwhile we in the churches and synagogues have a continuing task while we urge our government to disengage itself from a disgraceful commitment. We must continue to raise our voices if our nation persists in its perverse ways in Vietnam. We must be prepared to match actions with words by seeking out every creative means of protest possible.

As we counsel young men concerning military service we must clarify for them our nation's role in Vietnam and challenge them with the alternative of conscientious objection. I am pleased to say that this is the path now being chosen by more than seventy students at my own alma mater, Morehouse College, and I recommend it to all who find the American course in Vietnam a dishonorable and unjust one. Moreover I would encourage all ministers of draft age to give up their ministerial exemptions and seek status as conscientious objectors. These are the times for real choices and not false ones. We are at the moment when our lives must be placed on the line if our nation is to survive its own folly. Every man of humane convictions must decide on the protest that best suits his convictions, but we must all protest.

There is something seductively tempting about stopping there and sending us all off on what in some circles has become a popular crusade against the war in Vietnam. I say we must enter the struggle, but I wish to go on now to say something even more disturbing. The war in Vietnam is but a symptom of a far deeper malady within the American spirit, and if we ignore this sobering reality we will find ourselves organizing clergy- and laymen-concerned committees for the next generation. They will be concerned about Guatemala and Peru. They will be concerned about Thailand and Cambodia. They will be concerned about Mozambique and South Africa. We will be marching for these and a dozen other names and attending rallies without end unless there is a significant and profound change in American life and policy. Such thoughts take us beyond Vietnam, but not beyond our calling as sons of the living God.

In 1957 a sensitive American official overseas said that it seemed to him that our nation was on the wrong side of a world revolution. During the past ten years we have seen emerge a pattern of suppression which now has justified the presence of U.S. military "advisors" in Venezuela. This need to maintain social stability for our investments accounts for the counter-revolutionary action of American forces in Guatemala. It tells why American helicopters are being used against guerrillas in Colombia and why American napalm and green beret forces have already been active against rebels in Peru. It is with such activity in mind that the words of the late John F. Kennedy come back to haunt us. Five years ago he said, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

Increasingly, by choice or by accident, this is the role our nation has taken -- the role of those who make peaceful revolution impossible by refusing to give up the privileges and the pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investment.

I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered.

A true revolution of values will soon cause us to question the fairness and justice of many of our past and present policies. n the one hand we are called to play the good Samaritan on life's roadside; but that will be only an initial act. One day we must come to see that the whole Jericho road must be transformed so that men and women will not be constantly beaten and robbed as they make their journey on life's highway. True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it is not haphazard and superficial. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. A true revolution of values will soon look uneasily on the glaring contrast of poverty and wealth. With righteous indignation, it will look across the seas and see individual capitalists of the West investing huge sums of money in Asia, Africa and South America, only to take the profits out with no concern for the social betterment of the countries, and say: "This is not just." It will look at our alliance with the landed gentry of Latin America and say: "This is not just." The Western arrogance of feeling that it has everything to teach others and nothing to learn from them is not just. A true revolution of values will lay hands on the world order and say of war: "This way of settling differences is not just." This business of burning human beings with napalm, of filling our nation's homes with orphans and widows, of injecting poisonous drugs of hate into veins of people normally humane, of sending men home from dark and bloody battlefields physically handicapped and psychologically deranged, cannot be reconciled with wisdom, justice and love. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.

America, the richest and most powerful nation in the world, can well lead the way in this revolution of values. There is nothing, except a tragic death wish, to prevent us from reordering our priorities, so that the pursuit of peace will take precedence over the pursuit of war. There is nothing to keep us from molding a recalcitrant status quo with bruised hands until we have fashioned it into a brotherhood.

This kind of positive revolution of values is our best defense against communism. War is not the answer. Communism will never be defeated by the use of atomic bombs or nuclear weapons. Let us not join those who shout war and through their misguided passions urge the United States to relinquish its participation in the United Nations. These are days which demand wise restraint and calm reasonableness. We must not call everyone a Communist or an appeaser who advocates the seating of Red China in the United Nations and who recognizes that hate and hysteria are not the final answers to the problem of these turbulent days. We must not engage in a negative anti-communism, but rather in a positive thrust for democracy, realizing that our greatest defense against communism is to take offensive action in behalf of justice. We must with positive action seek to remove thosse conditions of poverty, insecurity and injustice which are the fertile soil in which the seed of communism grows and develops.
The People Are Important

These are revolutionary times. All over the globe men are revolting against old systems of exploitation and oppression and out of the wombs of a frail world new systems of justice and equality are being born. The shirtless and barefoot people of the land are rising up as never before. "The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light." We in the West must support these revolutions. It is a sad fact that, because of comfort, complacency, a morbid fear of communism, and our proneness to adjust to injustice, the Western nations that initiated so much of the revolutionary spirit of the modern world have now become the arch anti-revolutionaries. This has driven many to feel that only Marxism has the revolutionary spirit. Therefore, communism is a judgement against our failure to make democracy real and follow through on the revolutions we initiated. Our only hope today lies in our ability to recapture the revolutionary spirit and go out into a sometimes hostile world declaring eternal hostility to poverty, racism, and militarism. With this powerful commitment we shall boldly challenge the status quo and unjust mores and thereby speed the day when "every valley shall be exalted, and every moutain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall be made straight and the rough places plain."

A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Every nation must now develop an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in their individual societies.

This call for a world-wide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one's tribe, race, class and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all men. This oft misunderstood and misinterpreted concept -- so readily dismissed by the Nietzsches of the world as a weak and cowardly force -- has now become an absolute necessity for the survival of man. When I speak of love I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. I am speaking of that force which all of the great religions have seen as the supreme unifying principle of life. Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality. This Hindu-Moslem-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John:

Let us love one another; for love is God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. If we love one another God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Let us hope that this spirit will become the order of the day. We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate. As Arnold Toynbee says : "Love is the ultimate force that makes for the saving choice of life and good against the damning choice of death and evil. Therefore the first hope in our inventory must be the hope that love is going to have the last word."

We are now faced with the fact that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now. In this unfolding conundrum of life and history there is such a thing as being too late. Procrastination is still the thief of time. Life often leaves us standing bare, naked and dejected with a lost opportunity. The "tide in the affairs of men" does not remain at the flood; it ebbs. We may cry out deperately for time to pause in her passage, but time is deaf to every plea and rushes on. Over the bleached bones and jumbled residue of numerous civilizations are written the pathetic words: "Too late." There is an invisible book of life that faithfully records our vigilance or our neglect. "The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on..." We still have a choice today; nonviolent coexistence or violent co-annihilation.

We must move past indecision to action. We must find new ways to speak for peace in Vietnam and justice throughout the developing world -- a world that borders on our doors. If we do not act we shall surely be dragged down the long dark and shameful corridors of time reserved for those who possess power without compassion, might without morality, and strength without sight.

Now let us begin. Now let us rededicate ourselves to the long and bitter -- but beautiful -- struggle for a new world. This is the callling of the sons of God, and our brothers wait eagerly for our response. Shall we say the odds are too great? Shall we tell them the struggle is too hard? Will our message be that the forces of American life militate against their arrival as full men, and we send our deepest regrets? Or will there be another message, of longing, of hope, of solidarity with their yearnings, of commitment to their cause, whatever the cost? The choice is ours, and though we might prefer it otherwise we must choose in this crucial moment of human history.

As that noble bard of yesterday, James Russell Lowell, eloquently stated:

Once to every man and nation
Comes the moment to decide,
In the strife of truth and falsehood,
For the good or evil side;
Some great cause, God's new Messiah,
Off'ring each the bloom or blight,
And the choice goes by forever
Twixt that darkness and that light.

Though the cause of evil prosper,
Yet 'tis truth alone is strong;
Though her portion be the scaffold,
And upon the throne be wrong:
Yet that scaffold sways the future,
And behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow
Keeping watch above his own.
The Reverend almost makes me forget I dislike religion.

Even if Ron Paul set America back 50 years, 50 years ago America produced a Martin Luther King, a bigger human being than most, with feet of clay as all, who made a positive, qualitative change for the better happen for his country.

Obama the constitutional lawyer has set America back over 200 years. The Constitution isn't supposed to go obsolete. Its supposed to be the minimum standard of law as long as the Republic endures. If Ron Paul adheres to the Constitution, as he claims he will, he can't set back the civil liberties drawn from it, only affirm them. Ron Paul is a medical doctor, not a lawyer.
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

BOy you are in a for a WORLD of hurt with statements like that.
You realize you aren't really refuting anyone's claims here, just posting copyposta from other news articles you think support your claim.


I mean... Provide evidence that Obama has Set the nation back 200years
Or how going back 50 years is a GOOD thing.

I mean ye gods...
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by Gandalf »

General Brock wrote:Even if Ron Paul set America back 50 years, 50 years ago America produced a Martin Luther King, a bigger human being than most, with feet of clay as all, who made a positive, qualitative change for the better happen for his country.

Obama the constitutional lawyer has set America back over 200 years.
If setting the country back fifty years somehow creates another MLK, shouldn't knocking the country back two hundred years make a whole new set of founding fathers?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by Knife »

lol, a MLK was needed to fight against the oppression 50 years ago. It took round two from the framers to unfuck the Articles of Confederation they originally saddled us with. Neither 50 years ago nor 200 years ago were that great since people had to stand up and fight to fix it.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by General Brock »

UnderAGreySky wrote: You mean dismantling the EPA, letting 50-year-old coal-fired power plants spew tonnes of mercury into the air or letting industries dump all their toxic wastes into rivers and affecting the lives of millions of people is NOT a serious issue when the economy is not doing well? :roll:
I assume you mean this:

Link: http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/energy/
As President, Ron Paul will lead the fight to:

* Remove restrictions on drilling, so companies can tap into the vast amount of oil we have here at home.

* Repeal the federal tax on gasoline. Eliminating the federal gas tax would result in an 18 cents savings per gallon for American consumers.

* Lift government roadblocks to the use of coal and nuclear power.

* Eliminate the ineffective EPA. Polluters should answer directly to property owners in court for the damages they create – not to Washington.

* Make tax credits available for the purchase and production of alternative fuel technologies.

It’s time for a President that recognizes the free market’s power and innovative spirit by unleashing its full potential to produce affordable, environmentally sound, and reliable energy.
The EPA is far from a perfect organization. I don't have any good examples at my fingertips, so while this article is not about the EPA, it does describe an example of a major problem of government regulatory agencies; they collude with industry. While dismantling the EPA is not something I'm comfortable with, the model upon which it is founded needs to be addressed:

Link: http://www.registerguard.com/web/opinio ... y.html.csp

GUEST VIEWPOINT: The timber racket
A culture of corruption and political payoffs harms the land and ourselves

By Jeffrey Kent

For The Register-Guard

Published: (Sunday, Jan 1, 2012 05:00AM) Midnight, Jan. 1

As a federal prosecutor in Eugene I oversaw in the late 1980s and early 1990s a dozen investigations and prosecutions exposing rampant theft of federal timber. These thefts ran into the tens of millions of dollars and mocked thousands of hours of scientific work that established federal timber sale boundaries.

I saw partial- and select-cut sales metamorphose into logged clear-cuts. I saw sale boundaries breached by acres. I saw off-limits streams desecrated by heavy equipment. I saw wildlife migration preserves sliced and diced.

I later oversaw investigations that made these crude but massive multi-million dollar thefts look like piker play when hundreds of millions of dollars in perfectly merchantable federal timber removed from these sales was scaled as defective by so-called independent scaling bureaus hired by the timber companies.

By far the most disturbing aspect of all this was the ease with which these crimes were perpetrated while the government’s flawed monitoring systems were systematically compromised.

I came from Chicago, where I prosecuted public corruption cases involving every imaginable type of venality. Based upon my experience, I naturally assumed that government officials had been paid off to ignore theft and fraud on federal timber sales. Only after extensive grand jury investigations in numerous cases over many years did I conclude that the corruption was primarily cultural rather than monetary.

When I arrived in Oregon in the mid-1980s in the middle of the forest wars, I believed that poor Smokey Bear was trapped in a hellacious battle between rabid environmentalists and greedy timber companies and was doing the best he could to balance competing interests in his ham-handed paws. A decade later I became convinced to my core that Smokey was a tamed denizen of industry.

How did this happen? The Gulf oil spill, defense contracting scandals, the current financial crisis, and numerous other scandals that have bridged generations lead to an inescapable conclusion: The regulatory agencies of government have been co-opted by industry.

All such regulatory problems germinate at the campaign contribution stage, mushrooming into a pervasive culture that serves profit-driven corporations to the detriment of Joe Citizen. Powerful industries help to finance our elected officials’ political campaigns. This system of legalized bribery has been legitimized by illogical court rulings that campaign contributions are “free speech” and other legal fictions that ignore the reality of a government for sale. In return donors from regulated industries fully expect the regulatory agencies to be made well aware of industry’s expectations and demands.

Regulatory dereliction manifests itself in government timber sales in many ways. Standard timber sale contracts overwhelmingly benefit the industry, typically leading to net taxpayer losses on timber sales after the public has paid for logging roads and other costs. Contractual breaches often result in additional company profits rather than penalties when the fines for taking timber illegally are far below the price paid by the mills for illicitly cut timber. Clear-cuts approved by the Forest Service destroy forest diversity but make it less expensive for timber companies to log sites. I observed these and many other flaws over the course of 10 maddening years.

My first major case of systematic theft was never reported by the Forest Service, but was discovered when members of a Sisters environmental group hiked through a grove of old-growth Ponderosa pine that they had been instrumental in sparing — only to discover that this magnificent stand had been clear-cut by the logging company, even though paint clearly marked the base of the trees that were to be left. Only the vocal complaints of this small group led to law enforcement investigating an apparent criminal act.

When Forest Service law enforcement agents and forest forensics specialists inspected hundreds of units of many timber sales logged over many years by this company, they discovered systematic expansion of boundaries and removal of reserve trees — obvious breaches that were never reported by any of the numerous timber sale administrators charged with inspecting these sales.

How could this be? The search for an answer was initially baffling. My Chicago background caused me to search for payoffs, but after years of investigations, including months of grand jury sessions and thousands of law enforcement interviews, I never found bribes paid to Forest Service officials in the grand Chicago tradition. The answer proved to be much more complex and ultimately institutional and cultural.

This culture originated in the political sphere with campaign contributions and eventually permeated the entire regulatory agency. Timber sale administrators learned early in their careers that tough regulatory stances were routinely trumped by supervisors responding to industry complaints. These low-level administrators soon realized that it would be easier to get along than to fight such a formidable foe. They learned that any inappropriate logging of reserve trees was presumed to be a result of mistakes, and never willful criminal acts. They also learned early that potential crimes were not to be reported to law enforcement without explicit supervisor approval, which seemed to never come.

High-ranking Forest Service supervisors routinely referred to the timber industry as their “partner” rather than as companies doing commercial business with the government. This terminology betrayed naiveté and carried a strong suggestion of a political rather than a regulatory choice of words.

Following widespread media coverage of the failure of the Forest Service to prevent these massive timber thefts, congressional hearings were conducted to examine the regulatory flaws that made theft so easy. Predictably, the Forest Service vowed to re-examine and tighten its security systems.

In the wake of these embarrassing revelations a Timber Theft Task Force made up of agency law enforcement agents and trustworthy other agency personnel was formed.

As time passed, it became clear to me that all of this was little more than posturing to allay media criticism. I had seen this same drama play out many times in Chicago. Business as usual continued as soon as the political storm passed.

If anything, some Forest Service managers became even more intransigent with law enforcement, even ordering its agents not to share reports of potential timber theft with the meddlesome federal prosecutor in Eugene. These forest supervisors viewed the congressional and industry mandate to “get the cut out” as far more important than making sure that the cutting was lawful.

At great risk to their careers, some Forest Service personnel followed their higher authority — the pursuit of the truth — and reported both the investigative findings and the potential obstruction to the prosecutor’s office.

These and other incidents nationally led to yet another set of congressional hearings questioning whether Forest Service management was interfering with legitimate criminal investigations into potential timber theft. After these hearings, where the Oregon U.S. attorney himself testified about a long history of such problems, there was in fact some substantive reform — laws requiring that the Forest Service law enforcement function be independent from timber management.

The establishment of the Timber Theft Task Force led to an even more significant investigation. One sliver of the national forest near Salem, the North Santiam Canyon, was intensely scrutinized in a far-ranging grand jury investigation and prosecution. Statistical analyses revealed that over decades major companies in that area were reporting through log scalers — hired by the companies with the endorsement of the Forest Service — 30 percent less merchantable timber than Forest Service timber cruisers concluded was present in the timber sale sites. The companies were not required to pay for the timber that was scaled as defective.

The statistical analyses indicated that just one log scaler with his pencil cheated Joe Taxpayer out of $1 million a year for 20 years, to the benefit of three companies in the North Santiam Canyon.

How could any law-abiding company compete against this triad of illicit profiteers? It was not only the taxpayer coffers being plundered: honest companies were also being forced out of business in that area.

If one scaler could inflict that much damage in one sliver of the massive national forest system, the inherently conflicted scaling system — in which scalers are indebted for their very jobs to the company that hired them — may well have pilfered hundreds of millions of dollars from the taxpayers over the years.

A recurrent topic at multiple congressional hearings in the late 1980s and early 1990s was the dubious ability of the widely used scaling system to honestly determine defects in timber. Time and again Congress recommended that the scaling system be abolished in favor of a system of lump sum sales, where timber companies would make bids based upon their own estimates of defect in a sale site, which would set the price of the timber sale.

Industry officials, in meetings with Forest Service management, strongly opposed the lump sum sale system widely used by the Bureau of Land Management without problems or controversy. To my knowledge the vulnerable conflict-riddled scaling system remains operational in Forest Service timber sales, contrary to repeated congressional recommendations.

During this period I was invited to speak to Forest Service employees around the country regarding the flaws exposed in these prosecutions and investigations. What remains most vivid to me after years of these embarrassing revelations was the continuing resistance of Forest Service management to reporting potential timber theft or scaling fraud to law enforcement officials — because in their opinion it was almost certainly an innocent error.

The recalcitrant culture remained undaunted. In fact, things began to go backwards. The Timber Theft Task Force was summarily abolished for no apparent reason other than potential pressure from Forest Service management and industry. Those brave members who participated were retaliated against in a variety of transparent ways, including undesirable reassignments requiring relocation and being given new duties unrelated to timber theft or scaling fraud.

Predictably, timber theft and timber fraud reports, investigations, and prosecutions dried up despite there being little reason to believe that the system had been systematically improved.

Frustrated, disgusted and burned out by this quixotic effort to change the unchangeable, I asked to be reassigned to other federal cases. For 100 years it was said that “Chicago ain’t ready for reform.” I found the Forest Service comparably resistant.

As the forest wars heat up yet again in a flagging economy and in the midst of massive cuts in government services, recent proposals have included:

Ceding large tracts of public lands to the timber industry.

Suspending environmental laws on certain federal and state lands.

Intensifying the timber harvest on federal and state lands.

Allowing the collection of “biomass” on vast swaths of federal lands.

These and other proposals ignore other potential sources of revenue that are mystifyingly off the table. Corporations with massive timberlands been granted exemptions from state and local property and extraction taxes. These same timber companies have been given unlimited rights to export raw logs from their private lands (and with them thousands of local mill jobs), which then puts additional pressure on our public lands to provide logs to local mills. How can these exemptions, which deprive local and state governments of millions of dollars, be explained as anything other than political payback by misnamed public officials?

Timber companies also enjoy the right to clear-cut public forests when such methods turn diverse forests into pockmarked tree farms, along with the cutting for decades from public lands volumes of timber that far exceeded a sustainable and lawful yield.

These exemptions, actions, and decisions, clearly contrary to the public interest, can only be explained by the extreme bias created by the culture of campaign contributions and fear of reprisal created by the powerful special interest known as the timber industry. In such a climate it would require politicians and bureaucrats to be uncharacteristically courageous in confronting and reversing these policies.

While I believe that most people in both the timber industry and the Forest Service are basically honest, the widespread failure of members of the industry to report theft and fraud and the chronic failure of Forest Service employees to detect and report obvious theft and fraud remain disturbing to me. It was a constant frustration to encounter sworn statements by industry employees denying any knowledge of rampant theft and fraud in their midst. This implausible deniability caused me to conclude after many years that, as was true in the Forest Service, there existed a culture that discouraged such reports.

How can the citizens who own these forests and their local governments now clamoring for timber sale proceeds be protected from theft and fraud and decades of tax-exemption favoritism? Will politicians be willing and able to act only in the public interest, as their oath of office demands? Will the Forest Service be able and willing to devise and implement systems that are effective against fraud and theft, honoring its obligations to the citizenry?

In short, can the culture be changed?

I frankly doubt it. The system of elections supported by campaign contributions, now made unlimited under recent irrational U.S. Supreme Court decisions, poisons the entire political and regulatory system. Whether the industry is oil, finance, defense, or timber, all decisions inevitably favor industry, typically at the expense of the public interest.

The only remedy, in my opinion, is a constitutional amendment that nullifies the Supreme Court opinions and mandates publicly financed campaigns so that politicians’ and bureaucrats’ obligations and loyalties are no longer compromised by campaign contributions from special interests. Unfortunately, the path to such a solution is clogged by the very politicians who are already indebted to their campaign contributors.

However, a broad coalition of arch-conservatives (tea partiers, libertarians, etc.), ultra-liberals (Occupy Wall Street, etc.) and right-thinking independents, Democrats and Republicans already overwhelmingly agree that money and democracy do not mix.

The politicians, many of whom dislike the necessary evil of fundraising, would eventually be forced by a wave of bipartisan and cross-cultural forces to support such an amendment and begin working full time and free of financial conflicts on the nation’s critical issues.

Who knows? Maybe the regulatory agencies such as the Forest Service will eventually change as the residual culture of bias wanes.

Quixotic? A pipe dream? So were the origins of our democracy in 1776. It is time for a re-revolution that restores our form of government to the one envisioned by our founders, where true democracy for real people thrives once again with a capitalism energized by hard work, great ideas and, most importantly, a level field created by honesty and fairness.

UnderAGreySky wrote:
WHAT damage? Paultards seem to have only the 'civil liberties' defence, and that one is a sham since the states will still have rights over what they can do and what not. Paul is a confederate, not a Lolbertarian.
I'm not able to debate the whole State Rights versus Federal Rights thing except to say that in the case of such a tiered system, I'm all for using one to check the other in favour of affirming civil rights.
UnderAGreySky wrote:
Oh good, lets cut the military and fund the programs which.... he wants eliminated too.

So, to recap, Ron Paul will do ALL THESE WONDERFUL THINGS and he WON'T BE ALLOWED TO DO ALL THESE HORRIBLE THINGS.

Yeah, right. Remember the NDAA passed with 90% of the vote. Even his veto as president not have been enough.
He would have vetoed, though, and depending on the quality of his cabinet and supporters waged a public campaign to defeat the NDAA that might have succeeded and perhaps gotten its sponsors and supporters smeared out of office.

He would not likely say, as Obama did, "Trust me, it me wielding this unconstitutional power." In the meantime, a private citizen is left to do his duty:
Why I’m Suing Barack Obama
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why ... _20120116/
Posted on Jan 16, 2012

By Chris Hedges

Attorneys Carl J. Mayer and Bruce I. Afran filed a complaint Friday in the Southern U.S. District Court in New York City on my behalf as a plaintiff against Barack Obama and Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta to challenge the legality of the Authorization for Use of Military Force as embedded in the latest version of the National Defense Authorization Act, signed by the president Dec. 31.

The act authorizes the military in Title X, Subtitle D, entitled “Counter-Terrorism,” for the first time in more than 200 years, to carry out domestic policing. With this bill, which will take effect March 3, the military can indefinitely detain without trial any U.S. citizen deemed to be a terrorist or an accessory to terrorism. And suspects can be shipped by the military to our offshore penal colony in Guantanamo Bay and kept there until “the end of hostilities.” It is a catastrophic blow to civil liberties.

To read Chris Hedges’ legal filing aimed at overturning a new law that would allow the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens deemed terrorism suspects, click here. To read the law itself, click here.

I spent many years in countries where the military had the power to arrest and detain citizens without charge. I have been in some of these jails. I have friends and colleagues who have “disappeared” into military gulags. I know the consequences of granting sweeping and unrestricted policing power to the armed forces of any nation. And while my battle may be quixotic, it is one that has to be fought if we are to have any hope of pulling this country back from corporate fascism.

Section 1031 of the bill defines a “covered person”—one subject to detention—as “a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.”

The bill, however, does not define the terms “substantially supported,” “directly supported” or “associated forces.”

I met regularly with leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza. I used to visit Palestine Liberation Organization leaders, including Yasser Arafat and Abu Jihad, in Tunis when they were branded international terrorists. I have spent time with the Revolutionary Guard in Iran and was in northern Iraq and southeastern Turkey with fighters from the Kurdistan Workers’ Party. All these entities were or are labeled as terrorist organizations by the U.S. government. What would this bill have meant if it had been in place when I and other Americans traveled in the 1980s with armed units of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua or the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front guerrillas in El Salvador? What would it have meant for those of us who were with the southern insurgents during the civil war in Yemen or the rebels in the southern Sudan? I have had dinner more times than I can count with people whom this country brands as terrorists. But that does not make me one.

Once a group is deemed to be a terrorist organization, whether it is a Palestinian charity or an element of the Uighur independence movement, the military can under this bill pick up a U.S. citizen who supported charities associated with the group or unwittingly sent money or medical supplies to front groups. We have already seen the persecution and closure of Islamic charity organizations in the United States that supported the Palestinians. Now the members of these organizations can be treated like card-carrying “terrorists” and sent to Guantanamo.

But I suspect the real purpose of this bill is to thwart internal, domestic movements that threaten the corporate state. The definition of a terrorist is already so amorphous under the Patriot Act that there are probably a few million Americans who qualify to be investigated if not locked up. Consider the arcane criteria that can make you a suspect in our new military-corporate state. The Department of Justice considers you worth investigating if you are missing a few fingers, if you have weatherproof ammunition, if you own guns or if you have hoarded more than seven days of food in your house. Adding a few of the obstructionist tactics of the Occupy movement to this list would be a seamless process. On the whim of the military, a suspected “terrorist” who also happens to be a U.S. citizen can suffer extraordinary rendition—being kidnapped and then left to rot in one of our black sites “until the end of hostilities.” Since this is an endless war that will be a very long stay.

This demented “war on terror” is as undefined and vague as such a conflict is in any totalitarian state. Dissent is increasingly equated in this country with treason. Enemies supposedly lurk in every organization that does not chant the patriotic mantras provided to it by the state. And this bill feeds a mounting state paranoia. It expands our permanent war to every spot on the globe. It erases fundamental constitutional liberties. It means we can no longer use the word “democracy” to describe our political system.

The supine and gutless Democratic Party, which would have feigned outrage if George W. Bush had put this into law, appears willing, once again, to grant Obama a pass. But I won’t. What he has done is unforgivable, unconstitutional and exceedingly dangerous. The threat and reach of al-Qaida—which I spent a year covering for The New York Times in Europe and the Middle East—are marginal, despite the attacks of 9/11. The terrorist group poses no existential threat to the nation. It has been so disrupted and broken that it can barely function. Osama bin Laden was gunned down by commandos and his body dumped into the sea. Even the Pentagon says the organization is crippled. So why, a decade after the start of the so-called war on terror, do these draconian measures need to be implemented? Why do U.S. citizens now need to be specifically singled out for military detention and denial of due process when under the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force the president can apparently find the legal cover to serve as judge, jury and executioner to assassinate U.S. citizens, as he did in the killing of the cleric Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen? Why is this bill necessary when the government routinely ignores our Fifth Amendment rights—“No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law”—as well as our First Amendment right of free speech? How much more power do they need to fight “terrorism”?

Fear is the psychological weapon of choice for totalitarian systems of power. Make the people afraid. Get them to surrender their rights in the name of national security. And then finish off the few who aren’t afraid enough. If this law is not revoked we will be no different from any sordid military dictatorship. Its implementation will be a huge leap forward for the corporate oligarchs who plan to continue to plunder the nation and use state and military security to cow the population into submission.

The oddest part of this legislation is that the FBI, the CIA, the director of national intelligence, the Pentagon and the attorney general didn’t support it. FBI Director Robert Mueller said he feared the bill would actually impede the bureau’s ability to investigate terrorism because it would be harder to win cooperation from suspects held by the military. “The possibility looms that we will lose opportunities to obtain cooperation from the persons in the past that we’ve been fairly successful in gaining,” he told Congress.

But it passed anyway. And I suspect it passed because the corporations, seeing the unrest in the streets, knowing that things are about to get much worse, worrying that the Occupy movement will expand, do not trust the police to protect them. They want to be able to call in the Army. And now they can.

Text of Hedges’ Legal Complaint (Updated)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/78496151/Text ... nt-Updated

NDAA Official Text
Again, Ron Paul is likely the last starting point to begin a reversal of many complex trends that have undermined America for decades and there isn't any other candidate willing to challenge the neocon status quo. It should be obvious, a war on terrorism is endless made-up war; waiting for it to play out is unlikely to succeed, because it really is endless, and will easily outlast the endurance of even the U.S.A..

Yet, intelligent people will go out of their way to make excuses not to vote for someone clearly opposing what they also oppose - likely the last person who will ever be able to do so or be willing to do so at a time when its strategically crucial to do so - for reasons that just do not reflect the hardball practice of politics.

Its a simple single-issue; who will stop the wars? Everything else, from the economy to civil rights, appear to flow from that starting point. Yet, OMG Ron Paul isn't politically correct why look at all those important social and federal programs he wants to end that will end anyway when the neocons crash the country for good except that somehow that couldn't possibly happen to this exceptional country, so... so... well I'm actually at a loss as to how to finish that.

Its as if, the latter two problems are so great, the distraction of wars is preferred. I would say, those so distracted are sitting on the belly of a dragon eating its own tail. Its a great view but it comes with a price.
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Brock? Will you quit posting thousand-word articles about the state of civil liberties in America and answer some questions for a change?

Why is Ron Paul "the last starting point" to undo this situation? Why is he so trustworthy? Why are his chances of actually reversing the trend good?

Let me throw out a few scenarios. Imagine if Congress quietly ignores his attempts to reverse the trend. They don't repeal the bills, they just sit there. The next president who steps in after Ron Paul has shitted all over the economy decides to use the chaos as an excuse to go full-bore tyrant and really lock up thousands of people... the way you keep screaming that Obama is going to do, but has not yet done. Economic crashes, really hardcore ones, are a great way to get people to be willing to go along with a tyrant. Creating an economic crash on purpose can sow the seeds of future tyranny.

Where would we be then? What security has you, or anyone in Ron Paul's camp, got that this won't happen?

You don't even try to deny that he'll crash the economy. You just ignore that he'll crash the economy, and harp on grade school civics about how important the Constitution is.

Hell, you don't even try to prove that he's dedicated to the Constitution. You just babble on endlessly about that.

So why don't you quit babbling. Fine. There is a huge civil liberties problem in America. Why is Ron Paul the solution to this problem? Why is the cure worse than the disease?

Do you not see the difference between claiming that a man will fix a problem and actually solving the problem? People asserted that Obama would restore constitutional government back in 2008, ending the abuses and bad precedents of the Bush years. They were, alas, mistaken. Why should I consider Paul such a wonderful savior of my constitutional rights that I'm prepared to ignore that his economic policies would probably leave me and millions of my countrymen in poverty and misery?
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by General Brock »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:BOy you are in a for a WORLD of hurt with statements like that.
You realize you aren't really refuting anyone's claims here, just posting copyposta from other news articles you think support your claim.


I mean... Provide evidence that Obama has Set the nation back 200years
Or how going back 50 years is a GOOD thing.

I mean ye gods...
They're saying Ron Paul is going to do insane things he hasn't done yet and likely won't get the chance to do that may or may not be bad things anyway that might happen anyway given that the present political system and leadership direction is also insane and dysfunctional. So Ron Paul isn't even worthy of a protest vote.

Completely ignoring Paul's own message of ending the wars and returning to rule by the Constitution of the United States of America.

I can't explain certain views as well as those who have presented them better.

Obama reaffirming Shrubs dismissal of rule by the Constitution is very poetically a 200 year set back to when there wasn't a Constitution, mitigated only by the fact it doesn't have to be written from scratch again. Shrub wasn't an embarrassing anomaly; he set the new standard of political discourse so affirmed by Obama.

That's two Presidents and three terms in a row of an America unrecognizable since 911.

Two skyscrapers get knocked down and this does more damage to Western civilization than facing down 50 000 plus nuclear warheads of the Soviet Bloc because nuclear annihilation was preferable to not living under liberty and democracy?

50 years ago there was closer, if imperfect, adherence to Constitutional rule and divisions of power that permitted civil rights to be won for minorities not necessarily broadly supported by the public or the ruling elites. Today, its fashionable to pretend the Constitution is obsolete or irrelevant to a 'more complex' world. It never was or will be so as long as people aspire to be free, their rights protected and ability to act responsibility and humanely unfettered.

Today only one presidential hopeful stands for returning to any of that, Ron Paul, and he's rejected for reasons I can't square with reason. There's always some nitpick that evades the point; who's going to end the wars and return America's rights and freedoms? If not Ron Paul then who?

OMG, Ron Paul's newsletters indicate he's politically incorrect; lets completely ignore his message of Constitutional rule and ending wars of aggression and the fact that no-one else is promoting that as a legit Presidential platform.
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by General Brock »

Simon_Jester wrote:Brock? Will you quit posting thousand-word articles about the state of civil liberties in America and answer some questions for a change?

Why is Ron Paul "the last starting point" to undo this situation? Why is he so trustworthy? Why are his chances of actually reversing the trend good?

Let me throw out a few scenarios. Imagine if Congress quietly ignores his attempts to reverse the trend. They don't repeal the bills, they just sit there. The next president who steps in after Ron Paul has shitted all over the economy decides to use the chaos as an excuse to go full-bore tyrant and really lock up thousands of people... the way you keep screaming that Obama is going to do, but has not yet done. Economic crashes, really hardcore ones, are a great way to get people to be willing to go along with a tyrant. Creating an economic crash on purpose can sow the seeds of future tyranny.

Where would we be then? What security has you, or anyone in Ron Paul's camp, got that this won't happen?

You don't even try to deny that he'll crash the economy. You just ignore that he'll crash the economy, and harp on grade school civics about how important the Constitution is.

Hell, you don't even try to prove that he's dedicated to the Constitution. You just babble on endlessly about that.

So why don't you quit babbling. Fine. There is a huge civil liberties problem in America. Why is Ron Paul the solution to this problem? Why is the cure worse than the disease?

Do you not see the difference between claiming that a man will fix a problem and actually solving the problem? People asserted that Obama would restore constitutional government back in 2008, ending the abuses and bad precedents of the Bush years. They were, alas, mistaken. Why should I consider Paul such a wonderful savior of my constitutional rights that I'm prepared to ignore that his economic policies would probably leave me and millions of my countrymen in poverty and misery?
Yeah, I've lost it. I'll shut up soon enough.

Those newsletters are (edit: have) relevant information that should be considered (about his past), but have become smear fodder, with all the lack of sense of a smear campaign, on a man trying to do some good as he sees it. The questions raised in those letters were answered a long time ago; he disavowed them.

To repeat, Ron Paul cannot singlehandedly save America any more than he can impose his more insane ideas. To say he could make things worse ignores that worse is happening anyway.

What he can do, is allow Americans to save themselves by providing the political will to allow them to save themselves via their own Constitution, not willfully ignore them and do what Wall Street or the Fed or Military-Intelligence complex thinks is best. No leader is reminding the People to remember they have a Constitution, and a good one, to define their way of life and from which to draw solutions.

Americans want out of the wars for starters, action against corporate and financial corruption, a return to civil liberties, all of which are possible as long as there are enough empowered people who won't look the other way and find reasons not to act when when opportunities to act present themselves.

Ron Paul is the only candidate willing to identify (edit: those items as) issues, and try and address them. I regard the newsletter as the have been used in the thread as a desperate attempt to attack the man and draw attention from his message of today.
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by General Brock »

Gandalf wrote:
General Brock wrote:Even if Ron Paul set America back 50 years, 50 years ago America produced a Martin Luther King, a bigger human being than most, with feet of clay as all, who made a positive, qualitative change for the better happen for his country.

Obama the constitutional lawyer has set America back over 200 years.
If setting the country back fifty years somehow creates another MLK, shouldn't knocking the country back two hundred years make a whole new set of founding fathers?
I think a major revolt and war preceded the first Founding Fathers. Who's want that again?
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by bobalot »

General Brock wrote: Those newsletters are (edit: have) relevant information that should be considered (about his past), but have become smear fodder, with all the lack of sense of a smear campaign, on a man trying to do some good as he sees it. The questions raised in those letters were answered a long time ago; he disavowed them.
Bullshit, asshole. He disavowed them *years later* when he tried to move mainstream. He published them for years and made considerable sums of money from it for at least a decade. I'm dead certain you must be a clueless middle-class white guy. Only a clueless middle class white guy could casually dismiss Ron Paul's decade of pandering to neo-nazis and other racist assholes and act bewildered that people think this disqualifies him for the Presidency.

General Brock: LOL, So he pandered to and made money off some of the worst people in our society for a decade! BUT THAT'S ALL IN THE PAST! LOL! When he went 'mainstream' and 'disavowed' those views! What an amazing coincidence! LOLZ
General Brock wrote:To repeat, Ron Paul cannot singlehandedly save America any more than he can impose his more insane ideas.
No shit, Sherlock. However, he can be judged on the quality of his policies. Most of them are extremely bad.
General Brock wrote:To say he could make things worse ignores that worse is happening anyway.
No, it doesn't "ignore" anything, you dishonest douche. You are the only one asserting that.
General Brock wrote:What he can do, is allow Americans to save themselves by providing the political will to allow them to save themselves via their own Constitution, not willfully ignore them and do what Wall Street or the Fed or Military-Intelligence complex thinks is best. No leader is reminding the People to remember they have a Constitution, and a good one, to define their way of life and from which to draw solutions.
Wow, nice empty talking point. I pointed out particular policy positions that he has (which have considerable Republican support), that would be disastrous and you post pointless meaningless waffle.

Even in that whirlwind of bullshit, you forgot to mention that Ron Paul has a particular interpretation of the Constitution.

Ron Paul believes the Bill of Rights does not apply to the states. Ron Paul believes it only restricts the federal government. The clueless Ron Paul drones (like yourself) don't fully-understand the implications of this philosophy. This means that Ron Paul believes civil rights, gay rights, gay marriage, gender equality, institutionalized racism, prejudice and intolerance, even slavery should be acceptable/rejectable on a state-by-state basis.

This point is further backed up the legislation he has REPEATEDLY tried to pass.
General Brock wrote:Americans want out of the wars for starters
America has pulled out of Iraq and is winding down Afghanistan. Your point?
General Brock wrote:action against corporate and financial corruption
Ron Paul believes in a totally deregulated economy. This would not stop corporate and financial corruption. I would argue, it would further increase it.
General Brock wrote:a return to civil liberties
That's a flat out lie. He doesn't want the Federal government taking away "Liberties", but he's quite happy for the States to take away liberties from American citizens. He has introduced bills to constrain the Supreme Court from stopping the States from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation.

This ACTION alone, shows he doesn't give a shit about the rights of homosexuals.
General Brock wrote:all of which are possible as long as there are enough empowered people who won't look the other way and find reasons not to act when when opportunities to act present themselves.
Please detail how Ron Paul would accomplish this. No waffle. No bullshit. I want real practicable policy positions.
General Brock wrote:Ron Paul is the only candidate willing to identify (edit: those items as) issues, and try and address them.
Wow, look a claim without a shred of evidence.
General Brock wrote:I regard the newsletter as the have been used in the thread as a desperate attempt to attack the man and draw attention from his message of today.
I see your evasions and pointless waffle as a ploy to direct attention away from the fact that Ron Paul ran a racist newsletter for a fucking decade (or more) as a way to pander to some of the worst elements of American society and that you think it's no big deal when considering if this guy is a suitable candidate for President.

P.S What pisses me off even more is instead of addressing peoples arguments, you have posted entire articles (it's like throwing a book at somebody during a verbal debate) and posted the same old generic Ron Paul talking points (repackaged for each post). You have single-handily shat all over the entire thread. What amazes me is that you think that you are actually improving people's stance on Ron Paul by acting like such a massive dipshit.
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by UnderAGreySky »

General Brock wrote:
UnderAGreySky wrote: You mean dismantling the EPA, letting 50-year-old coal-fired power plants spew tonnes of mercury into the air or letting industries dump all their toxic wastes into rivers and affecting the lives of millions of people is NOT a serious issue when the economy is not doing well? :roll:
I assume you mean this:

Link: http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/energy/
As President, Ron Paul will lead the fight to:

* Remove restrictions on drilling, so companies can tap into the vast amount of oil we have here at home.

* Repeal the federal tax on gasoline. Eliminating the federal gas tax would result in an 18 cents savings per gallon for American consumers.

* Lift government roadblocks to the use of coal and nuclear power.

* Eliminate the ineffective EPA. Polluters should answer directly to property owners in court for the damages they create – not to Washington.

* Make tax credits available for the purchase and production of alternative fuel technologies.

It’s time for a President that recognizes the free market’s power and innovative spirit by unleashing its full potential to produce affordable, environmentally sound, and reliable energy.
The EPA is far from a perfect organization. I don't have any good examples at my fingertips, so while this article is not about the EPA, it does describe an example of a major problem of government regulatory agencies; they collude with industry. While dismantling the EPA is not something I'm comfortable with, the model upon which it is founded needs to be addressed:

Link: http://www.registerguard.com/web/opinio ... y.html.csp
< snipped massive article >

I don't know who here is stupider, you or Paul. Eliminating the EPA will KILL people. It will kill them faster and more surely than the NDAA will. This bit here:
Eliminate the ineffective EPA. Polluters should answer directly to property owners in court for the damages they create – not to Washington.
is why RP should NEVER be in a position of power. When people start dying because of pollutants in their air and water, and they don't know whom to blame. Hey, four factories in the area - how do I know which one is dumping waste? can you prove it in court? Can you, with your 50,000 dollar/year salary fight against lawyers that make your monthly wages in a week? And do you want to do it when your relatives are either dead or have cost you thousands of dollars in treatment at the ER?

And you posted a fucking useless article in response too, about theft of federal timber. Here's an idea - if you're ever obligated to post
I don't have any good examples at my fingertips, so while this article is not about the EPA, it does describe an example of a major problem of government regulatory agencies
just don't.

Your argument translates to OH MY GOD I FOUND AND EXAMPLE OF CORRUPTION IN A GOVERNMENT AGENCY. SHUT DOWN THE EPA! SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT! SHUT DOWN THE MILITARY!
While dismantling the EPA is not something I'm comfortable with, the model upon which it is founded needs to be addressed
I do. not. care. what YOU are uncomfortable with. I do. not. care. what you think of the "model upon which it is founded" and I don't even think you have a point there.

I do care that the man you're backing will kill people through his pants-on-head-retarded economic and political ideas. I do care - since I'm not American - that his policies could get millions of South Koreans killed by Kim Jong Un. I do care that if the US falls into a second Great Depression thanks to him, the world is fucked.
He would have vetoed, though, and depending on the quality of his cabinet and supporters waged a public campaign to defeat the NDAA that might have succeeded and perhaps gotten its sponsors and supporters smeared out of office.
Hahahahahahahahahaha! NINETY PERCENT OF THE SENATE voted for this. NINETY. You think any of them will let him wage a public campaign?
Again, Ron Paul is likely the last starting point to begin a reversal of many complex trends that have undermined America for decades and there isn't any other candidate willing to challenge the neocon status quo.
Tripe.

- Dennis Kucinic
- Bernie Sanders
- Elizabeth Warren
- Al Franken

These are just off the top of my head.
Yet, intelligent people will go out of their way to make excuses not to vote for someone clearly opposing what they also oppose
No, intelligent people know that "my enemy's enemy" is not always my friend, and this is more true in politics than any other arena. People like you who get let a single issue be the only yardstick to judge people are not what I would call intelligent.
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by Akhlut »

General Brock wrote:Those newsletters are (edit: have) relevant information that should be considered (about his past), but have become smear fodder, with all the lack of sense of a smear campaign, on a man trying to do some good as he sees it. The questions raised in those letters were answered a long time ago; he disavowed them.
He hasn't disavowed being willing to let other people engage in rampant discrimination.
What he can do, is allow Americans to save themselves by providing the political will to allow them to save themselves via their own Constitution, not willfully ignore them and do what Wall Street or the Fed or Military-Intelligence complex thinks is best. No leader is reminding the People to remember they have a Constitution, and a good one, to define their way of life and from which to draw solutions.
Why isn't the Green Party a serious contender for that? They sure as hell aren't bending over backwards for any Wall Street or Military-Industrial paymasters.
Americans want out of the wars for starters, action against corporate and financial corruption, a return to civil liberties, all of which are possible as long as there are enough empowered people who won't look the other way and find reasons not to act when when opportunities to act present themselves.
Again, Green Party.
Ron Paul is the only candidate willing to identify (edit: those items as) issues, and try and address them. I regard the newsletter as the have been used in the thread as a desperate attempt to attack the man and draw attention from his message of today.
http://www.gp.org/committees/platform/2010/index.php

Oh hey, the GP has been identifying these problems for nearly a decade now and has been proposing solutions too! Why should I vote for Ron Paul instead of the Greens?
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by MKSheppard »

General Brock wrote:That's two Presidents and three terms in a row of an America unrecognizable since 911.
Hey, you know, 9/11 happened on my 20th birthday, and I'm now 30, so I can objectively peer review this statement.

America is recognizable post 9/11; although air travel has become more and more un fun thanks to the TSA.
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Re: Quotes from Ron Paul's newsletter.

Post by MKSheppard »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Or how going back 50 years is a GOOD thing.
Hmm. 2012 - 50 = 1962

I was just reading the Partial Draft Text of the Preamble to the Democratic Party Platform for 1964 in the 23 August 1964 New York Times, and it had the following random snippets:

Since January, 1961, we have achieved:
A 150 per cent increase in the number of nuclear warheads and a 200 per cent increase in total megatonnage available in the strategic alert forces. .

A 60 per cent increase in the tactical nuclear strength in western Europe.

Increased the intercontinental ballistic missiles and Polaris missiles in our arsenal from fewer than 100 to more than 1,000.

Our strategic alert forces now have about 1,100 bombers, including 550 on 15-minute alert.

Increased the regular strength of the Army by 100,000 men and the numbers of combat-ready Army divisions from 11 to 16.

Increased the number of tactical fighter squadrons from 55 to 79.

Trained over 100,000 officers in counter-insurgency skills necessary to fight guerrilla and antiguerrilla warfare, and increased our special forces trained to deal with counter-insurgency by 800 per cent.

Our expanded and reconstituted defense force has cost billions of dollars less than it would have cost under previous inefficient and unbusinesslike methods of procurement and operation.

...

In January, 1961, the nation was at the bottom of the fourth recession of the postwar period.

Today we are in the midst of the longest peacetime expansion in our history.

There are a million and a half more Americans at work today than there were a year ago.

Our present prosperity was brought about by the enterprise of American business, the skills of the American work force and by wise public policies.

The provision in the Revenue Act of 1962 for a credit for new investment in machinery and equipment, and the liberalization of depreciation allowance by administrative ruling, resulted in a reduction of $2.5 billion in business taxes.

Over-all individual Federal income taxes were cut an average of 19 per cent; taxpayers earning $3,000 or less received an average 40 per cent cut.

...

Discrimination in Employment

The great Civil Rights Act of 1964 is the strongest and most important law against discrimination in employment in the history of the United States.

On March 6, 1961, President Kennedy issued an Executive Order establishing the President's Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity to combat racial discrimination in the employment policies of Government agencies and private firms holding Government contracts. Then Vice President Johnson assumed personal direction.

Not only has discrimination been eliminated in the Federal Government, but strong affirmative measures have been taken to extend meaningful equality of opportunity to compete for Federal employment to all citizens.

The Equal Pay Act of 1963 guarantees equal pay to women doing the same work as men.

Executive Order 11141, issued by President Johnson on Feb. 12, 1864, establishes for the first time in history a public policy that [Government] "contractors . . . shall not . . . discriminate against persons because of their age . . ."

...

Minimum Wages

The Fair Labor Standards Act amendments of 1961 raised the minimum wage of §1,25 and extended the coverage of the act to 3.6 million additional workers.

The Administration has proposed further amendments to the Fair Labor Standards Act which would extend minimum wage coverage to near three quarters of a million workers.

...

A Program for the Aging

The Social Security Act amendments of 1961, broadened benefits to 5.3 million, persons.
The Social Security program now provides $1.3 billion in benefits each month to 19.5 million persons.

The Housing Act of 1961 increased the scope of Federal housing aids for the elderly.
Hmm. Huge military build up, tax cuts, massive social programme expansion and rights for minorities expanding.
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