Spoonist wrote:Why would you feel the need to point that out? However what I was and still is discounting is, as I said, its claims of which we are all familiar. See the example of Falun Dafa as an extreme of this.
It doesn't matter what the ancient chinese guys thought they meant when they used the term, what matters is how the term is used today, and most commonly its refered to as a supernatural force. I've so far never heard or talked to a practitioner who mention ki seriously without putting supernatural claims to it. Its simply that those who want to use it in a correct way use other terms instead like momentum because qi/ki/chi is poisoned by pop culture.
You mean, they listened exactly to what was being said by a bunch of guys going to the USA/West to make money and who embellished and made stuff up about the martial arts they exported in order to make more money and/or gain more students and other such promotional stuff? I'm just saying that the people who introduced Eastern martial arts into the West may have had more sensationalist stuff, and that what they're saying might not actually be the same as what the martial artists actually in Asia say/think/believe, which is why you hear superpowers and all that stuff, whereas martial artists actually teaching in Asia might not be into that sort of stuff.Nope, the west didn't misunderstand. Instead they listened exactly to what was being said. That's the whole base of the 'new age'. See the Falun Dafa reference above.
But for a more concrete example I give you the boxer rebellion and "ki can stop bullets".
It's a bit like when some Filipino martial artists brought eskrima/arnis outside the Phils, to the USA, they promoted it and called it "kali" and everyone in the outside world calls eskrima/arnis "kali" even though actual eskrima/arnis practitioners in the Philippines don't even know what the word "kali" is. Except instead of just making up names, those guys importing Eastern martial arts might've made up superpowers and whatever.
Also, using the boxer rebellion as a representative of Chinese martial arts traditions is like using deranged African militias tendency to wear outrageous headgear or believe in invincibility potions (cocaine) as an example of that region's martial arts. I mean, here, local people also believe in lucky charms and amulets, or at least they used to in the past, but that doesn't have much to do with the local martial arts here and bringing it up would be silly.
What's with the Falun Gong? Doesn't everyone in China think they're total nuts?
Since when has martial arts technique usage depended on the seasons? This is, like, the first time I've ever heard of martial arts practitioners being beholden to the seasons, climates, or spirits. Where's this from?If you take the old martial arts then even the assbeating side of it has a spritiual side. You should use these techniques against this sort of enemy. This technique during spring, this during summer, etc. Which gets in the way of the actual assbeating aspect of it. For instance what made Bruce Lee famous was that he cherry picked without paying homage to the spirits.
I thought Bruce Lee just got into trouble because he was teaching gaijin, and he was incorporating techniques from all sorts of schools, rather than defying the Celestial Bureaucracy.
My entire statement, which you dissected line by line in typical SDN debate fashion was:Since this: "Nobody hears much of European martial arts, at least I don't." is how you started the conversation I will simply tell you that that is not the case. Unless you mix in india, which has been the gateway for both directions and has had a huge impact itself on ancient martial arts.Shroom Man 777 wrote:there really isn't much difference between the actual techniques of Eastern and Western martial arts.
I'd argue that without the superstitious/medicinal/religious aspects, the promotionist bullshit, and the Hollywood pop-culture sensationalism, there really isn't much difference between the actual techniques of Eastern and Western martial arts. Some of the aikido maneuvers I've seen (and been subjected to) are pretty much identical to the postures of some Greco-Roman wrestling statues (that I saw in pictures).
Maybe it's because of inter-exchanges. Or, maybe it's because despite all the spiritual mumbo jumbo you deride, the originators and practitioners of those Asian martial arts were still pretty methodical and sensible about the actual techniques used to break arms and punch faces, and there's only so many ways to do an arm bar or something (which explains why despite divergent evolution, an aikido/arnis armbar takedown thing looks very much like its Greco-Roman wrestling counterpart).
Ah. Yeah, those fencing clubs and boxing clubs. I don't know much about European fashions and such, but that does make sense.LaCroix covered some of this, but this is just wrong. Up to the point of modern western doctors proscribing tai chi to pensioners, because that gets them off their ancient fat buts and actually excercise a bit instead of just sitting in front of the tellies.
But yes taking up "fighting" classes has been recommended for hundreds of years by medics in the west, because its an addictive form of excercise. Fencing for instance was all the rave (old meaning) amongst the better folk before tennis and golf came along.
Then look at the cossacks for religious parts of the fighting style etc.
Uh, samurai actually did use guns and in fact even imported European cannons. I think the reason why they were eliminated was due to politics during those turn of the century reformations in Japan, rather than their fighting skills.Yes, yes, yes and yes. Not with the same lingo though. The calming effect and the endorphin rush would be the same. The superstitious influence is the same, look at the knights vs saladin for some really stupifying examples.
Even the weapon of choice - the sword - would have religious meaning. But still, even if the sword was the holy weapon of choice, you still bring a mace, a lance and a hammer in the field because they are effective tools. Their counterparts the samurai for instance was reduced to the rubbish heap of history because they refused to change tools. The knight just gradually evolved away.
So as I said in my first post - a more barbaric/practical approach.
The knightly religious martial arts thing is very interesting and, again, sadly underexposed. We see martial arts monks all the time, but we seldom see depictions of these whole knightly religious orders. Which is unfortunate.
At least with this thread, we can hear more about these things and gain better appreciation of underexposed European arts.
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- PeZook
and even back when I was young and had some stamina I was always looking for something new instead of sticking with something. So I'm more of a serial dropout/failure when it comes to this stuff. Also I never liked taking an unecessary beating, so all those "effective" arts like boxing is not for me. If so I'd much rather be suited up like in arnis with the ridicilous red-foam-suit or kendo etc. Viking reenactment is great fun, there you get to have a shield that usually takes the beating for you.
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