So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

So, as I am sure many of you are unaware, the Fish and Wildlife Service has been considering adding large constrictors (Specifically, Burmese Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, African Rock Pythons, Anaconda etc) to the Injurious Wildlife provision of the Lacey Act, which prohibits the importation and interstate sale of these animals without permit.

They have been considering this because several of these species have become established as invasive in FL and there is the real prospect of them spreading. In particular, African Rock Pythons and Burmese Pythons. How the fuck does this happen, you ask? Well, it is a combination of things. Hurricane Andrew wiped out several import warehousing facilities and allowed escape into the everglades. These animals are also widely available for purchase by just about anyone, and... well... most of them cannot take care of a 20 foot snake for multiple decades and the animal either escapes or gets released at some point.

Well... the reptile keeping hobbyist community has been mad as hell for a while... but it seems the Fish and Wildlife Service went ahead and actually did it.
U.S. bans imports of 4 exotic snake species

The United States is banning the importation of four species of snakes and their eggs, the Interior Department announced Tuesday.

Interior Secretary Ken Salazar announced the ban -- which covers the Burmese python, the northern and southern African pythons, and the yellow anaconda -- at a news conference at Everglades National Park in South Florida, where non-native snakes have become a serious problem.

Park officials called the announcement a great first step for the park's ecosystem.

"We are very happy to see this finally in place," said park spokeswoman Linda Friar. "The python has continued to be an increasing challenge in management and we are hoping this will help us get a better handle on this species."

The biggest threat to the park is the non-native Burmese python. It is believed that the snakes were originally pets that found their way into the park. The Everglades, known as the river of grass, is a vast area with a climate perfect for the pythons to hide and breed. And breed they do: The largest clutch found in the Everglades was 83 eggs.

"We think there are tens of thousands of snakes (in the park)," said Friar. The snakes prey on native wildlife such as the endangered Key Largo wood rat and the endangered wood stork. The largest prey, Friar said, was a 76-pound deer that was found in the stomach of a 16-foot python a few months ago.

The ban will not affect people who currently own these four species of snakes, other than prohibiting the transportation or selling of the animals across state lines.

The ban should be in place by the end of March, when the snakes will be included under the Lacey Act. The act is designed to stop illegal trafficking of specified wildlife, fish and plants. A felony violation of the Lacey Act can bring a five-year prison sentence and a $250,000 fine.

Although the ban should put a stop to additional pythons entering the country, officials say it will not solve the snake problem in the Everglades. "We still have to look at improved management and removal to better protect our habitat," Friar said.
So... well... to say the least a lot of snake keepers are MAD. StrongMad, actually. But you know what, and I say this as someone who has a small personal reptile and amphibian zoo... Watch Me Care.

1) Most of these people should not have these animals in the first place. They are bought on impulse because the babies for sale are absolutely adorable and very pretty, but they grow into snakes that reach upwards of 7 meters in length, need to be fed pigs, can easily kill you by accident, and are usually rather ill-tempered. Larger individuals have been known to escape and kill small children. Idiots get drunk, mess with the snake alone, and end up being found dead after the smell starts bothering the neighbors. Hell, the head of my department was working in a zoo and got constricted to death. He was clinically dead, but the snake let go and his heart restarted on its own... and he knew what he was doing. So we have a concern for both animal welfare (because these animals are often treated poorly) and human health.

If you want one, and can prove you can keep one, permitting is possible. Even then, local breeders exist in most states. You can still get one if you are willing to look... but prices go up. Effectively a 100 dollar snake someone can buy on impulse at a herp convention will have a massively increased price tag, which can only be a good thing.

2) These animals ARE invasive in FL. Some of them, like the Rock Python can easily become established elsewhere because their climate tolerances are more... generalist. You do NOT want these things invasive, you really dont.

3) The hobbyist community has been fending off government threats of adding these animals to the Lacey Act for at least a decade with the claim that they will self-police... and they have not fucking done it. They bitch about violations of their "right" to keep an animal in captivity, when in reality it is a privilege that has responsibilities attached, and they have abrogated those responsibilities for decades. It is high time that the Fish and Wildlife Service finally slapped the community in the face. Maybe then they would get their heads out of their collective ass.

And yes, that is my professional opinion.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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^ Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. A chem grad student I knew flipped out into a libertarian rage over this, and I said something like "your right to a large snake doesn't overpower my right to an Everglades. Ask Australia if they'll let you import your rabbit or your cane toad."

Just cause this stuff is too little, too late doesn't make it unwelcome. These guys are swallowing the alligators down there and swimming out to the Keys.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

Post by Sarevok »

Did they let people import,buy and sale Pythons without permit before ? Anyone without proper training and qualification could own such dangerous animals before ?
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Sarevok wrote:Did they let people import,buy and sale Pythons without permit before ? Anyone without proper training and qualification could own such dangerous animals before ?
They still can, just not large constrictors. The US is infameous for its many local zoos where just about anyone can get really dangerous wildlife put them in a cage and charge a fee for poking the cage.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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I support this legislation as well. It is a matter of preserving the environment and also of human health and safety.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Anguirus wrote:These guys are swallowing the alligators down there and swimming out to the Keys.
Weren't the alligators also eating them?
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Anguirus wrote:Ask Australia if they'll let you import your rabbit or your cane toad."
Or your potted cactus...
http://www.northwestweeds.nsw.gov.au/pr ... istory.htm
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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CJvR wrote:
Anguirus wrote:Ask Australia if they'll let you import your rabbit or your cane toad."
Or your potted cactus...
http://www.northwestweeds.nsw.gov.au/pr ... istory.htm
What really amazed me was that the brits deliberately introduced WASPS into both australia and new zeeland. Bees I can see, but wasps?
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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@Spoonist

You sure about the British delibarately introducing wasps to Australia ? My googling(:http://museumvictoria.com.au/wasps/) indicates otherwise.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Broomstick wrote:I support this legislation as well. It is a matter of preserving the environment and also of human health and safety.
Dont get me wrong, if kept correctly, these snakes make... interesting captives. If the hobbyist community had actually self policed like they have said they would, I would not be supporting this rule change (not really legislation, but an addition to a listing under existing law). But they have not. Burmese pythons are kind of touch and go, they can either be nasty or really big scaly kittens. I wont go near an adult retic though. They are kind of like certain dog breeds. If kept properly, they are no danger to anyone outside freak freak accidents. The problem is they are like pit bulls. If not kept properly, you have a potential problem, and we cannot ban people. Imagine a situation like pit bulls, but worse per capita and with even more animal neglect. You have a hobbyist community saying they will self police, and many mean it... but those people are not in control of imports and sales. You have not SEEN sketchy SOB like you see it in exotic animal importers.

And there are plenty of pythons that are no danger to the environment at all. It is when you get into the really big pythons that live in temperate regions like rock and burmese pythons (despite the name, they get pretty high in elevation, which is equivalent to the middle latitudes).

Yellow anaconda are not particularly dangerous (only being 14 feet ish. half the size of the other species), but so long as the water does not freeze they will probably survive and you dont want that thing spreading in southeastern wetlands.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

Post by Akhlut »

Aly, you're the resident herpetologist and I'm much more mammal-oriented in my biological training and preference, so, could you tell me if there's an equivalent to constrictor-HIV which could theoretically put enough pressure on invasives to make them succumb or at least not wipe out native US habitat, but wouldn't threaten native US snakes?
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Akhlut wrote:Aly, you're the resident herpetologist and I'm much more mammal-oriented in my biological training and preference, so, could you tell me if there's an equivalent to constrictor-HIV which could theoretically put enough pressure on invasives to make them succumb or at least not wipe out native US habitat, but wouldn't threaten native US snakes?
Nope :P

It is just not there.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Akhlut wrote:Aly, you're the resident herpetologist and I'm much more mammal-oriented in my biological training and preference, so, could you tell me if there's an equivalent to constrictor-HIV which could theoretically put enough pressure on invasives to make them succumb or at least not wipe out native US habitat, but wouldn't threaten native US snakes?
Nope :P

It is just not there.
So, you're telling me the US government can engineer human HIV, but they can't get off their lazy asses and make snake AIDS? What the fuck is the world coming to? :P

A bit more seriously, though, I wish the US animal regulatory agencies would be a bit more proactive and ban things prior to them being approved as being safe. I mean, seriously, just looking at Maryland's permitting requirements for herptiles shows that permitting is more strict for native species then for non-natives! What the bloody hell is that? I'd think that the natural environment is something that we would want to take a very conservative approach with (that is, not alter it or risk altering it until something is proven safe), not just let any yahoo do whatever the fuck they want until we're already in deep shit.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I am glad I dont live in MD. My native frog zoo is rather larger than they might permit.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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I find it highly ironic that it appears that the Burmese Python is becoming threatened in large areas of its native habitat by people eating them. We need to import 50,000 Burmese hunters to just comb the everglades back and forth for five years or ten years until the things are eradicated, or else put all the Mexican illegals INS catches to work doing it. As I recall a Chinese company is already helping try to suppress the Asian carp in the midwest, shipping the meat back to China since nobody wants to eat it in the US.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Sarevok wrote:@Spoonist

You sure about the British delibarately introducing wasps to Australia ? My googling(:http://museumvictoria.com.au/wasps/) indicates otherwise.
Could be wrong, my recollection is from my touristing in New Zealand and visiting the southern tip of australia.
*goes checking*

New Zealand
Introduced stinging wasps

The most offensive stingers are four introduced species of social wasp in the Vespidae family. These are pests in urban, rural and natural ecosystems. The worst two are of European origin, the black-and-yellow German and common wasps (Vespula germanica and Vespula vulgaris respectively), which attack and sting to defend their huge nests. Both species, especially the common wasp, have invaded native forest – kauri forests in the north and beech forests in the south.
Australia
The social wasp Vespula vulgaris (L.), an introduced species that has caused extreme ecological damage
in New Zealand, is reported from southern Tasmanian forests for the first time. In mainland Australia,
this wasp has been present in the Melbourne area since 1958 and our retrospective analysis places it in
Hobart since 1995
Seems that they were indeed deliberately introduced to New Zealand and not Australia, but that the new zealand pop spread to Tasmania etc.
So I was right about them being deliberately introduced in new zealand and wrong about australia to which they have just spread.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Spoonist wrote:
CJvR wrote:
Anguirus wrote:Ask Australia if they'll let you import your rabbit or your cane toad."
Or your potted cactus...
http://www.northwestweeds.nsw.gov.au/pr ... istory.htm
What really amazed me was that the brits deliberately introduced WASPS into both australia and new zeeland. Bees I can see, but wasps?
I am extraordinarily disappointed that this wasn't a joke about Botany Bay.

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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

Post by Count Chocula »

I agree with AD, Florida already has enough dangerous fauna; a new, large, invasive (i.e. successful at breeding) species will only make for unhappy headlines. Too bad we didn't keep kudzu from getting a toehold in the South.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Wrath of Khan - SS Botany Bay or sending hard rockers to penal colonies?
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:Hell, the head of my department was working in a zoo and got constricted to death. He was clinically dead, but the snake let go and his heart restarted on its own... and he knew what he was doing.
:shock: Holy fuck. :shock:

I'm scared of big snakes as it is, so I can forget about sleeping tonight.

As for the ban, all I can say is, about time. Not because I'm scared of snakes, since I don't live in Florida and don't plan to visit, but because the ecosystem in the 'Glades has been under a lot of pressure and there was basically no chance of getting it under control without some kind of ban. Keeping up with natural reproduction is hard enough, with a steady influx of escaped or dumped snakes it's just impossible.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Spoonist wrote:Wrath of Khan - SS Botany Bay or sending hard rockers to penal colonies?
The later.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Holy fuck.
This guy is like a guatemalan raised and somwhat more ancient version of Steve Irwin. His area of expertise is the evolution and systematics of Central/South american venomous snakes... and he has been known to swim with crocodiles (granted, the relatively laid back Crocodylus acutus, caiman etc). Something like that was bound to happen eventually, and it is cause for a private chuckle around the zoology folks.
As for the ban, all I can say is, about time. Not because I'm scared of snakes, since I don't live in Florida and don't plan to visit, but because the ecosystem in the 'Glades has been under a lot of pressure and there was basically no chance of getting it under control without some kind of ban. Keeping up with natural reproduction is hard enough, with a steady influx of escaped or dumped snakes it's just impossible.
Hold on... let me get you The List. It is awesome. I can go to FL and observe species I otherwise would have had to go to Asia to see...

http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/nonnatives/reptiles/

Some of them dont actually hurt anything. I will go through a few.

Mediterranean Gecko - Hemidactylus turcicus

Little gecko that has pretty much been introduced everywhere it can survive in the US. Dont really hurt anything either. They hang around lights at night, usually at people's houses, and eat the insects attracted to said lights. Basically a food source for everything that cares to eat them, and damaging an insect population through predation is futile.

Green Iguana - Iguana iguana

These guys are big. And sexy. I mean that in the sense that the males strut around displaying for females and the way they do this makes me think "I'm too sexy for my scales, too sexy for my scales". They also dont compete with anything for food because FL does not have many native grass grazers or fruit plunderers. In fact... not many native fruits, so... They are basically filling a niche untouched by FL natives, and are more a big scaly garden pest than anything else.

Nile Monitor - Varanus niloticus

Fuck Everything. Imagine a 7 foot long reptilian version of a raccoon that is faster, stronger, smarter (yes. Smarter), capable of climbing better, digging deeper, is fully semi-aquatic, and way the fuck more aggressive. That is the Nile Monitor. Now weep for native birds, small mammals, and gator/american croc populations, and sea turtles, because these guys go bug-fuck nuts over the prospect of raiding a nest. Any Nest.

Cane toads- Rhinella sp

You know what is happening in Australia? Yeah.

And that is just a few of the herps. The mammals get flat out funny...

Rhesus Monkey - Macaca mulatta
Squirrel Monkey - Saimiri sciureus

Yes. You see that right.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:
This guy is like a guatemalan raised and somwhat more ancient version of Steve Irwin. His area of expertise is the evolution and systematics of Central/South american venomous snakes... and he has been known to swim with crocodiles (granted, the relatively laid back Crocodylus acutus, caiman etc). Something like that was bound to happen eventually, and it is cause for a private chuckle around the zoology folks.
Jesus, that'd include the fer-de-lance, wouldn't it? That thing is about #5 on my list of "snakes to run the fuck away from", because from what I understand it's very poisonous, really mean-tempered, and not even a bit shy. All I can say is that I'm glad there's people in the world who can study that, cause it sure won't be me.

Shit like that is why I stuck to genes and molecules back when I was in the field. Nobody ever got killed by a DNA strand. (Granted, phenol is another story...)
Hold on... let me get you The List. It is awesome. I can go to FL and observe species I otherwise would have had to go to Asia to see...
I was talking about the constrictors in specific, but this is pretty cool. :)
Nile Monitor - Varanus niloticus
Fuck me running, you've got monitors as an invasive species down there? Why people would keep something like that as a pet is something I will never comprehend. Keep some fish. Fish are nice. And more importantly, fish can't figure out how to open their fucking cage, and they don't get to be man-sized with giant fucking teeth!

I've never owned a gun, but it sounds like if I ever go to Florida I'll have to start.

Seriously, thanks man. As you can probably tell, snakes and other kinds of herps have always fascinated me, despite the fact that they really creep me out. Possibly because they really creep me out.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

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ChaserGrey wrote:Fuck me running, you've got monitors as an invasive species down there? Why people would keep something like that as a pet is something I will never comprehend. Keep some fish. Fish are nice. And more importantly, fish can't figure out how to open their fucking cage, and they don't get to be man-sized with giant fucking teeth!
You didn't know my spouse back when he was keeping salt-water aquariums...

An octopus actually can figure out how to escape, they're notorious for it.... and it often results in their death, especially when escaping out of an aquarium in Chicago cause the ocean is only a couple thousand kilometers away. Then there was the lion fish, the stone fish, the puffer fish were only fatal if you ate them, then there was the nurse shark which, by the way, did bite the spouse one day, he's got a half-moon scar on his hand. Said shark is now in the Shedd Aquarium collection and it is, in fact, man-sized these days.

I'll also note that the spouse at the time was a volunteer at the Shedd, and helped develop breeding techniques for a variety of salt-water fish so the pet trade could breed them instead of depleting wild stock. And when the shark got too big for his tanks at home he gave it to the Shedd instead of dumping it into a river or lake.

Seriously, when we got married I said no venomous critters or anything that could eat us allowed as pets. It was a necessary negotiating point. At that, he's probably one of the more responsible types and there are certainly exotics he won't keep due to hazards.
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Re: So, apparently, the Python Ban passed.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Fuck me running, you've got monitors as an invasive species down there? Why people would keep something like that as a pet is something I will never comprehend. Keep some fish. Fish are nice. And more importantly, fish can't figure out how to open their fucking cage, and they don't get to be man-sized with giant fucking teeth!
People keep them as pets because they are really cool, and if treated right, can become friendly and nice rather readily. Monitorsare some of the few reptiles that when you are looking at them also look back at you (well, most things will look at you, but they examine and are curious about you in the same way you are curious about them). An animal that smart can reach a sort of gentleman's agreement with a person and even display affection. The komodo dragon at the Ft. Worth Zoo knows his keepers and demands to be petted like a giant cat.

Some people keep them as pets for that reason. Others... are morons.
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