Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war criminal

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Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war criminal

Post by Thanas »

AP
CAMP PENDLETON, California (AP) -- Military prosecutors worked for more than six years to bring Marine Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich to trial on manslaughter charges that could have sent him away to prison for life.

But only weeks after the long-awaited trial started, they offered Wuterich a deal that stopped the proceedings and could mean little to no jail time for the squad leader who ordered his men to "shoot first, ask questions later," resulting in one of the Iraq War's worst attacks on civilians by U.S. troops.

The 31-year-old Marine, who was originally accused of unpremeditated murder, pleaded guilty Monday to negligent dereliction of duty for leading the squad that killed 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha in 2005 during raids after a roadside bomb exploded, killing a fellow Marine and wounding two others.

Wuterich, who was indicted in 19 of the 24 deaths, now faces no more than three months in confinement.

It was a stunning outcome for the last defendant in the case once compared with the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. The seven other Marines initially charged were exonerated or had their cases dropped.


"I was expecting that the American judiciary would sentence this person to life in prison and that he would appear and confess in front of the whole world that he committed this crime, so that America could show itself as democratic and fair," one of the survivors, Awis Fahmi Hussein, told The Associated Press in Haditha.

Military judge Lt. Col. David Jones began hearing arguments from both sides Tuesday at Camp Pendleton, Calif., before making a sentencing recommendation to be considered by the commander of Marine Corps Forces Central Command.

Legal experts said the case was fraught with errors made by investigators and the prosecution that let it drag on for years. The prosecution was also hampered by squad mates who acknowledged they had lied to investigators initially and later testified in exchange for having their cases dropped, bringing into question their credibility.

In addition, Wuterich was seen as taking the fall for senior leaders and more seasoned combat veterans, analysts said. It was his first time in combat when he led the squad on Nov. 19, 2005.

Brian Rooney, an attorney for another former defendant, said cases like Haditha are difficult to prosecute because a military jury is unlikely to question decisions made in combat unless wrongdoing is clear-cut and egregious, like rape.

"If it's a gray area, fog-of-war, you can't put yourself in a Marine's situation where he's legitimately trying to do the best he can," said Rooney, who represented Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, the highest-ranking Marine charged in the case. "When you're in a town like Haditha or Fallujah, you've got bad guys trying to kill you and trying to do it in very surreptitious ways."

Marine Corps spokesman Lt. Col. Joseph Kloppel said the deal was not a reflection or in any way connected to how the prosecution felt its case was going in the trial.

The Haditha attack is considered among the war's defining moments, further tainting America's reputation when it was already at a low point after the release of photos of prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison.

It still fuels anger in Iraq today.

"We wonder about such a sentence issued against the defendant. We called upon US to be fair in passing sentences. Regrettably, we are disappointed about the issuance of such sentences," said Khalid Salman Rasif, a member of the Provincial Council in Haditha, adding he would contact the lawyer for victims' families for an explanation.

Kamil al-Dulaimi, a Sunni lawmaker from the Anbar provincial capital of Ramadi, called the plea agreement proof that "Americans still deal with Iraqis without any respect."

"It's just another barbaric act of Americans against Iraqis," al-Dulaimi told The Associated Press. "They spill the blood of Iraqis and get this worthless sentence for the savage crime against innocent civilians."

Wuterich, the father of three children, had faced the possibility of life behind bars when he was charged with nine counts of manslaughter, which will be dropped. Along with facing a maximum of three months in confinement, he could also lose two-thirds of his pay and see his rank demoted to private when he's sentenced.

Wuterich, his family and his attorneys declined to comment Monday after he entered the plea. Prosecutors also declined to comment on the plea deal.

During the trial before a jury of combat Marines who served in Iraq, prosecutors argued he lost control after seeing the body of his friend blown apart by the bomb and led his men on a rampage in which they stormed two nearby homes, blasting their way in with gunfire and grenades. Among the dead was a man in a wheelchair.

In the deal, Wuterich acknowledged that his orders misled his men to believe they could shoot without hesitation and not follow the rules of engagement that required troops to positively identify their targets before they raided the homes.

He told the judge that caused "tragic events."

"I think we all understood what we were doing so I probably just should have said nothing," Wuterich told the judge.

He said his orders were based on the guidance of his platoon commander at the time, and that the squad did not take any gunfire during the 45-minute raid.

Many of his squad mates testified that they do not believe to this day that they did anything wrong because they feared insurgents were inside hiding.


Haditha prompted commanders to demand troops be more careful in distinguishing between civilians and combatants.

Former Navy officer David Glazier said the case shows such rules are essential to helping the United States prevail in an armed conflict.

"The reality is that this incident has had significant consequences for the U.S. in Iraq," said Glazier, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. "It probably fueled the resistance and so it probably ended up costing additional soldiers and Marines their lives later on."

Well done, USA, well done. :finger:
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by PeZook »

So, he's getting less time than what you can get for drunk driving with a suspended license?
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

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Yeah. Sure makes you feel like the US Navy cares, right?
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Eulogy »

It's shit like this that makes vigilantism seem like a great idea. He'll get killed, sooner or later.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

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Eulogy wrote:It's shit like this that makes vigilantism seem like a great idea. He'll get killed, sooner or later.
Vigilantism is not a good idea.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Everyone dies some day, if that's what you mean. If you think someone is going to go murder him you've got your head in the sky unless he decides to go back to Iraq as a civilian

As for the actual case, they managed to give immunity to the people who did the actual killing and collect a contradictory pile of lies as evidence, making the conviction of anyone unlikely by the beloved rule of law trial system. An excellent demonstration of why attempting to apply such formalized style of rules to battlefields doesn't work; though we also see that the entire US military justice system as become a sick joke even in the most straightforward of cases possible when they won't even take away the commission of fucking Hasan for conduct unbecoming of an officer.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Eulogy »

Thanas wrote:
Eulogy wrote:It's shit like this that makes vigilantism seem like a great idea. He'll get killed, sooner or later.
Vigilantism is not a good idea.
Won't stop people from trying. Also, I said it SEEMED like a good idea, not that it is. I know that not everybody is Batman.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Stofsk »

This is pretty despicable, but I do wonder about the point raised about the investigations and prosecutions being flawed. In what way were they flawed? The article doesn't really go into it, other than some witnesses being non-credible.

Oh, and...
Marine Corps spokesman Lt. Col. Joseph Kloppel said the deal was not a reflection or in any way connected to how the prosecution felt its case was going in the trial.
Suuuuuure. Because prosecutors love offering deals with wildly marked-down sentencing parametres when they're winning.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Stark »

Maybe the investigation was crap because the investigators knew full well nobody wanted a conviction, rather than some native impossibility of ever trying anyone for anything that happens on a 'battlefield'.

Its a laugh to read about US rationalisations and arguments around the effect of these various war crimes. Its exactly what the guys at Nuremburg did; they highlighted Nazi 'mistakes' that shouldn't have happened because of how it made life hard for Germany, and not because they were wrong things to do.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Well change the title to zero months; the judge recommended three months but in fact the plea deal is for zero time, just reduction in rank and pay.

Relevant part only quoted
Updated at 6:20 p.m. ET: A Marine sergeant who led a squad that killed 24 unarmed Iraqis will spend no time in confinement.
Military judge Lt. Col. David Jones said he wanted to send Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich to the brig, but his hands were tied by a plea agreement that prevents any jail time.
Jones was not aware of the stipulation until he opened the plea agreement in court after recommending 90 days confinement.
Wuterich pleaded guilty to negligent dereliction of duty, a charge that carried a maximum sentence of 90 days. But because of the way the military system works, the terms of the deal with prosecutors weren't known to the judge until after he made his sentencing recommendation in court on Tuesday.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... lings-case
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by weemadando »

Wow.

Not even fired.

Can I have that kind of job security?
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Stofsk wrote:This is pretty despicable, but I do wonder about the point raised about the investigations and prosecutions being flawed. In what way were they flawed? The article doesn't really go into it, other than some witnesses being non-credible.
All witnesses are non credible except the Iraqi witnesses whom cannot identify specific Americans. The problem with this being that the killings took place in three locations; Iraqis exiting a car were gunned down, and then people were murdered point blank inside two houses. However the Marines entered four houses near simultaneously so the Marines who raided the other two are most likely not guilty of anything.

Meanwhile the brilliant Navy investigators gave no less then seven people immunity while unraveling this since everyone just took the fifth amendment; and while one was an officer who was not present for the killings but was the first commissioned officer to appear on scene after the fact, all the others were in the thick of it. Most of the immunity deals effectively gave complete blanket immunity even if the men gave false testimony. By the time the investigation was done investigators had come to believe that a number of responsible people were among those who now had immunity, while the roles of others could not be proven because of all the contradictions. They ended up dropping all the charges rather then even attempting a trial.

The case against Wuterich lasted longer because as the man in charge while the murders took place he should be responsible for his men’s actions even if they are unclear. It sounds to me like now they decided since nobody was convicted of a crime, they can’t convict this guy of doing anything wrong since it is unproven a wrong took place. For a while it appears his subordinates were trying to pin half the killings on him alone.

I’m looking now for an article which gives this in an authoritarian kind of way, but it’s hard to find one with specifics and most articles have blatantly obvious biases. I know something decent exists though from back around the time when the bulk of the charges got dropped in 2008.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Tanasinn »

weemadando wrote:Wow.

Not even fired.

Can I have that kind of job security?
If you're willing to murder people for Haliburton's profit margin, sure. :)
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Sidewinder »

Sea Skimmer wrote:All witnesses are non credible except the Iraqi witnesses whom cannot identify specific Americans. The problem with this being that the killings took place in three locations; Iraqis exiting a car were gunned down, and then people were murdered point blank inside two houses. However the Marines entered four houses near simultaneously so the Marines who raided the other two are most likely not guilty of anything.

Meanwhile the brilliant Navy investigators gave no less then seven people immunity while unraveling this since everyone just took the fifth amendment; and while one was an officer who was not present for the killings but was the first commissioned officer to appear on scene after the fact, all the others were in the thick of it. Most of the immunity deals effectively gave complete blanket immunity even if the men gave false testimony. By the time the investigation was done investigators had come to believe that a number of responsible people were among those who now had immunity, while the roles of others could not be proven because of all the contradictions. They ended up dropping all the charges rather then even attempting a trial.

The case against Wuterich lasted longer because as the man in charge while the murders took place he should be responsible for his men’s actions even if they are unclear. It sounds to me like now they decided since nobody was convicted of a crime, they can’t convict this guy of doing anything wrong since it is unproven a wrong took place. For a while it appears his subordinates were trying to pin half the killings on him alone.
So the main problem isn't the judicial system itself, but bungling on the investigators and prosecutors' parts, which resulted in the guilty parties receiving prosecutorial immunity in exchange for their testimony?
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Alyeska »

Based on what Skimmer has added, it seems like this was a fucked up situation and that nothing could have changed this.

Once the crime had been committed, it was too late. Thanas, I am honestly interested in your opinion on what the investigators could have done differently.

The whole unit as a whole wasn't guilty, but it wasn't possible to identify the individual members. So who is responsible? And how do you assign punishment?
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

Were they perhaps trying to go after someone higher up and messed up along the way, or did they simply screw up stupendously? This kinda seems like the idea when dealing with the mob, you cut deals with the low end guys for stuff they did in order to get the guys higher up on the totem pole who are guilty of greater/more numerous offenses.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by ComradeClaus »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Were they perhaps trying to go after someone higher up and messed up along the way, or did they simply screw up stupendously? This kinda seems like the idea when dealing with the mob, you cut deals with the low end guys for stuff they did in order to get the guys higher up on the totem pole who are guilty of greater/more numerous offenses.

that's the problem, isn't it? just like w/ abu gharib. the TOP of the totem pole, (GW, Tricky Dicky, Rummy, Condi, etc) in this case can't be prosecuted.

It's a shame that we (the US) can inflict "justice" by kinking in a door at night & shoot an unarmed, unresisting man in front of his children, or turn a propagandist (& anyone unlucky enough to be within a hundred feet of him) into chunky salsa w/ a missile, but can't convict, in the Court Of Law a group of conspirators, thieves & murderers.

Some "justice", huh? :banghead:

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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by S.L.Acker »

Doesn't each soldier get their own rifle, and doesn't each rifle have a unique pattern that it leaves on bullets fired from it? If that is true it should be easy to tell which weapon fired which shots. Then either you bust men for lending out their weapon, or you suddenly have a very strong place to start against the shooters.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Edi »

Alyeska wrote:Based on what Skimmer has added, it seems like this was a fucked up situation and that nothing could have changed this.

Once the crime had been committed, it was too late. Thanas, I am honestly interested in your opinion on what the investigators could have done differently.

The whole unit as a whole wasn't guilty, but it wasn't possible to identify the individual members. So who is responsible? And how do you assign punishment?
They could have started by not trying to cover it up, because that is the only remotely credible explanation for that kind of criminal incompetence. And if they didn't have anyone to pin it on, they should not have given out any immunity deals but fried Wuterich first and foremost since as the senior NCO present he was in overall command of the men during the incident. That, and the first commissioned officer to arrive at the scene, since he neglected his duties.

Nobody is ever going to believe that this was anything other than a deliberate coverup from the start, because that's what the US has become notorious for.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Alyeska »

Edi wrote:They could have started by not trying to cover it up, because that is the only remotely credible explanation for that kind of criminal incompetence. And if they didn't have anyone to pin it on, they should not have given out any immunity deals but fried Wuterich first and foremost since as the senior NCO present he was in overall command of the men during the incident. That, and the first commissioned officer to arrive at the scene, since he neglected his duties.

Nobody is ever going to believe that this was anything other than a deliberate coverup from the start, because that's what the US has become notorious for.
Without testimony they would have a hard time of pinning a great deal on him. You couldn't punish the soldiers responsible if they weren't testifying. And was the CO responsible? Did he create an environment that allowed it? I really don't know. But to automatically crucify him if you can't find anyone else seems wrong.

I can agree that the investigation itself seems flawed. But it would also seem that the facts were horrid. Victims and witnesses who could say what happened but couldn't positively identify the attackers. Guilty parties who happily kept their mouth shut unless they got immunity, at which point they started laying blame on others. And in the middle of all that most of the soldiers were almost certainly innocent and merely at the wrong place at the wrong time.

What they should do is conduct an independent investigation into events such as this one. Avoid conflict of interest by running it outside of the military.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Winston Blake »

Alyeska wrote:The whole unit as a whole wasn't guilty, but it wasn't possible to identify the individual members. So who is responsible? And how do you assign punishment?
Well, this is a radical approach, but you could simply declare that since the culprits cannot be found, everyone involved is collectively responsible and therefore everyone receives Other Than Honourable or Bad Conduct Discharges.

I'm not declaring that this is absolutely how things should be done in the military - I am presenting one way to deal with the problem of "So who is responsible? And how do you assign punishment?".

It's basically unfair, but from a consequentialist point of view, it would probably be more effective at eliminating this kind of behaviour than the current system. If I'm reading the article correctly (I am not a lawyer), practically any unit can get away with atrocities just by telling everyone to (1) keep their mouth shut until given immunity, and then (2) tell contradictory stories to bamboozle the prosecution. Collective responsibility, while harsh, would mean that soldiers/marines could be told 'If we put your story together with the stories from the rest of your unit, and with all the forensic evidence, and it doesn't match up - then you and your entire unit are getting Other Than Honourable Discharges'.

After all, it's not as if militaries aren't known for strictness and harshness, and it's not unusual that certain rights should be given up upon entry into the military.

---

It would also raise (rather than lower) America's reputation in the world, particularly in the places that need it most, like Afghaniraq. It would also create a sense in the minds of potential perpetrators that an attempt to 'get a few kicks into the bad guys' would risk harming their fellow troopers. In fact, it would harm the war effort by causing valuable, innocent people to get kicked out. It would also encourage truthful confessions in the event of 'people just flipping out'. In other words, the 'thin blue line' effect of strong intra-unit & organisational loyalty could be used to help prevent and resolve atrocities rather than contribute to their cover-up.

Also, it's not 100% unfair. The members of a unit could be considered responsible for either inculcating the right morals in new members, or weeding out incorrigible or unstable individuals. Further, in professions such as engineering, if a professional engineer signs a document saying something is safe and it fails and people die, then he or she is automatically responsible. There is no 'I did my best under the circumstances' or 'we were under a lot of stress at the time' or 'I just did what I was told to do' or 'I think these rules just get in the way of getting things done'. There is only 'you are responsible, whether you did your best or not'. Now, the engineer may not be charged with murder, but he or she would lose their job at the least, and it would be a black mark on his or her record. I expect a lot of professions are like this. (This connects with Weemadando's comment of "Wow. Not even fired. Can I have that kind of job security?").

In practice, a real version of this could never be implemented in the U.S. military. There would need to be a culture of strong adherence to ZE RULES from top to bottom, and strong respect for ZE RULES in the 'home country' culture from which soldiers/Marines are drawn. There would also need to be a tradition of current members of units having strict morals and 'moulding' new members or 'voting no-confidence' regarding them. Further, IIRC there was at least one major period in the last decade of war in which U.S. recruiting was difficult. When you're struggling to gather enough troopers to get your war done, the prospect of kicking people out becomes subject to conflicts of interest.
Alyeska wrote:What they should do is conduct an independent investigation into events such as this one. Avoid conflict of interest by running it outside of the military.
I agree, except I would change it to 'should have done' - past tense. The article gives the impression that it's been dragging on for so long now, and has become such a mess, that it's basically untouchable.

I'm filing this one under 'things that make me wonder why the world is so messed up'.

---

Note: this case is a bit like the plot of Inside Man with Denzel Washington. The masked criminals in the surrounded building kept the hostages in groups in separate rooms, then moved individual hostages between rooms at random. The trick was that at least one of the criminals was pretending to be a hostage at any given time. In the end, the police couldn't tell who was a criminal and who was a hostage, because all the criminals had been 'seen' by other hostages who vouched for them. So in the end they had to let them all go.
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by PeZook »

Alternatively, you could just treat this sort of thing seriously and not fuck around at the start, but conduct an investigation immediately.

It's not the sort of conflict where you can't afford to confiscate the rifles (to see which ones have been fired) and immediately question the troopers to ascertain who was in which house, before they can agree on ironclad stories.

Since the murders happened in a specific place at a specific time, there will be evidence left on site that, if seized quickly, might lead to convictions. Hell, if bullets are unuseable (and they very well might be, since from what I understand they tend to fragment), there's still going to be shell casings that could be matched to specific rifles.

And, of course, slam the people in charge if it can be shown they were negligent ; What happened to the idea of commanders being responsible for the conduct of their men?

But since the default for the US military is "nothing of the sort happened", the evidence got destroyed or contaminated and whoops suddenly we need to try and extract confessions from witnesses (and without the benefit of being able to say "Look, we know you fired your rifle that day.")
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Stark
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Stark »

If these guys get a deal, does that mean that there's some kind of official statement that the US agrees something happened here, or is it just under the carpet time with all those inconvenient facts?
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Shroom Man 777
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

The ultimate freedom is the freedom from accountability and America is the freedomest nationest in the worldest. There is no freedomer nationer in the worlder.

Ever.

Now time for some musacs.

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wautd
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Re: Haditha massacre: Only 3 months in prison for war crimin

Post by wautd »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Well change the title to zero months; the judge recommended three months but in fact the plea deal is for zero time, just reduction in rank and pay.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... lings-case
If a military judge is the same as the average american in the comment section, then I'm not surprised at the verdict. Support the troops and God Bless the Marine Corps. Mindless nationalism is really heartwarming isn't it?
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