LONDON | Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:55am EST
(Reuters) - A London court ruled on Friday a British student can be extradited to the United States for breaching U.S. copyright law by running a website that allowed users to access films and TV programs illegally.
Richard O'Dwyer's website, TV Shack, provided links to other websites where users could access content but did not host any of the content itself.
The 23-year-old, who says he started the project to improve his computer programming skills and help him get a work placement, did not charge users but sold $230,000 worth of advertising on the site, according to U.S. authorities.
"I was forced to set up advertising because of the massive server fees," O'Dwyer told BBC radio ahead of the ruling.
"When you've got a website with over 300,000 people a month visiting, there's a need for infrastructure to support that. There's no other way to do it, unless you had the money yourself."
The United States has cracked down far harder than Britain on illegal file-sharing, which has damaged the film, television and music industries.
O'Dwyer's lawyer Ben Cooper argued that by linking to other websites, his client had done nothing more than the likes of Google Inc or Yahoo Inc.
He said the student's activities would not be criminal in Britain, and he should be tried at home if anywhere.
"There have been lots of very similar cases here which simply haven't stood up," Cooper, an extradition lawyer with Doughty Street Chambers, told Reuters by telephone.
"My argument is that it wouldn't be a criminal case here. At most, it would be a civil matter," he said.
APPEAL
He described O'Dwyer as a "guinea pig" as no British citizen had been extradited to the United States for a copyright offence before.
However, District Judge Quentin Purdy at London's City of Westminster magistrates' court upheld the extradition request, and said Britain's Home Secretary (interior minister) would make a final decision.
Cooper said his client would appeal against the verdict.
O'Dwyer's tearful mother Julia criticized the extradition treaty between Britain and the United States.
"If they can come for Richard, they can come for anybody ... there are no safeguards for British citizens," she told reporters after the hearing.
(Reporting by Georgina Prodhan and Paul Sandle; Editing by Andrew Heavens)
I have heard from other sources that this extradition treaty was initially created to deal with terrorists. If thats true I can soooo see the terror in file sharing that brings to the likes of corporate America.
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And people question why one should worry when more and more rights are being signed away in the war on terror. I mean, it is not like Obama would ever lie and not use his powers in a way they were not intended, right?
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------------
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mr friendly guy wrote:I have heard from other sources that this extradition treaty was initially created to deal with terrorists. If thats true I can soooo see the terror in file sharing that brings to the likes of corporate America.
Well, we can't have those foreign upstarts scaring our poor little billionaires, can we? The fear of not pleasing shareholders is reason enough to screw over other people, right?
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"I see you do not understand objectivity," said Tom Carder, a fundie fucknut to Darth Wong
Could an argument be made that the US so-called "justice" system is compromised and therefore extradition (especially for a pettifogging offense like copyright infringement) is a Bad Idea™?
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
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NoXion wrote:Could an argument be made that the US so-called "justice" system is compromised and therefore extradition (especially for a pettifogging offense like copyright infringement) is a Bad Idea™?
That's the fact of the matter, but unfortunately it is not politically viable for European governments to say that officially in public.
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Richard O'Dwyer's website, TV Shack, provided links to other websites where users could access content but did not host any of the content itself.
this is what more or less all sites that have anything to do with torrenting, p2p and stuff that may be illegal do saying that it's to cover their asses.
Is that still a copyright violation?
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Even in Britain we are not safe from America's dictatorship transition phase. It's a disgrace we're extraditing or even considering extraditing him for what we don't even consider criminal.
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So the kid sold $230,000 in advertising by, in essence, facilitating the illegal consumption of copyrighted material?
I will not argue that extradition and punishment in this case will likely not fit the crime, but I find it funny when comments like the one Dr Roberts just made get thrown out there. Facilitating a crime (in this case illegaly downloading copyrighted material) should be on the books as illegal in any modern legal code whether you think the crime was severe or not. He was bringing in 300k visitors per month and generating significant revenue, this wasn't just about a project to help him find work or hone computer skills.
And then there is this part of the article:
"If they can come for Richard, they can come for anybody ... there are no safeguards for British citizens," she told reporters after the hearing.
There is a safeguard and that's the British court of law, this is overblown but that's a damn failure right there IMHO to allow this extradition to occur.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
How does the US have jurisdiction in this case? If his website is based in the UK and from what it says in the article I have no information to the contrary then this is a crime that occurred in the UK and thus shouldn't be prosecutable in US courts? Or am I missing some information?
If any part of the money generated in this instance went to or from the United States it would open the door for a claim, since I doubt he was hosting any of his content on US based computers.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
What he did is not "illegal" in any case, since Google (a) generates income from ads (2) hosts links to sites which may have copyrighted content.
Just another crazy instance where the copyshits demonstrate that they cannot be reasoned with, they're perfectly willing to force extradiction of foreign citizens under a law originally created for dealing with terrorists (itself questionable!) from foreign nations to lock them behind bars for "crime" of hosting links to file-sharing websites, streaming websites or warez portals (not the people who host the portals themselves, even).
Ceterum censeo Copyright esse delendam, that's all I can say.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Dr Roberts wrote:Darth Fanboy please note that what he did is not illegal here!
If, and this is an if, any of the money he generated was generated in the United States, then the US is going to claim some form of jurisdiction (which is what they did with megaupload). Please keep in mind I do not support this extradition, and I feel that the guy is being let down by the British justice system in this case. However, if what he did was subject to penalty under American law and if any part of his business went through the US then he opened the door to prosecution himself. I can only speculate because I haven't yet seen an article specifically saying the origin of his revenue (other than "advertising") or what content he was linking to.
Stas Bush wrote:What he did is not "illegal" in any case, since Google (a) generates income from ads (2) hosts links to sites which may have copyrighted content.
The OP states that his site generated ad revenue and specifically linked to sites where content could be illegally downloaded. In this case "Google does it" is not a valid argument of the legality of the action, rather it highlights the issue of media companies targeting small fry unfairly and unjustly while bigger companies are given a pass.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Any search engine by definition would be able to provide a similar service. Rather than trying to make the Internet to conform to the wishes of the copyright crazies, one should accept it as it is. Attempts to stop technical progress artificially through laws have failed in the past as they should.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Does not really matter. If you can be extradicted for the "crime" of collecting links to torrent trackers, that's fucked up.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Stas Bush wrote:Does not really matter. If you can be extradicted for the "crime" of collecting links to torrent trackers, that's fucked up.
The guy profited to the tune of $230,000 from copyright infringement. Profiting from an illegal activity is illegal. If he hadn't made so much money it would probably not be an issue. Claiming that he was "forced to set up advertising" because of server fees is a poor excuse because he was never forced to host the material to begin with. I don't agree with extradition, but the web site was specifically designed to provide copyrighted content then it's not the same as Google or Yahoo, because you can search for ANYTHING using a search engine, collecting links to torrent sites and directly facilitating piracy is far different and much more specific.
The extradition is far exceeding what is necessary in this case, but that does not mean that no crime took place either. With the US government apparently cracking down so much, people involved in online piracy should do everything they can to avoid crossing into American jurisdiction.
I will admit that I am only speculating that O'Dwyer's financing of the site through advertising went through America at some point, becaus eI cannot come up with any other way they could ask for extradition and jurisdiction.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Just one small point: He had revenue of $230,000 - not profits. You would have to subtract the costs of hosting the site in order to get the profits. Unfortunately we don't have those numbers.
D.Turtle wrote:Just one small point: He had revenue of $230,000 - not profits. You would have to subtract the costs of hosting the site in order to get the profits. Unfortunately we don't have those numbers.
Which makes no difference at all, the point isn't how much of what he generated was profit, the point is how much of what he generated was based on illegal downloading. Since his site was geared towards said downloads, it is reasonable to assume most if not all of his revenue would be generated from that.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Darth Fanboy wrote:Which makes no difference at all, the point isn't how much of what he generated was profit, the point is how much of what he generated was based on illegal downloading. Since his site was geared towards said downloads, it is reasonable to assume most if not all of his revenue would be generated from that.
Isn't the revenue actually generated from visitors clicking on advertisements, rather than clicking on links to torrent trackers?
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky
Nova Mundi, my laughable attempt at an original worldbuilding/gameplay project
The site traffic was generated by the torrent offering. If the site had not offered that content, would he still have generated that traffic? There is nothing to indicate that he much of anything else for content.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Zixinus wrote:And how much was pure profit? He did say that he had to keep up with the server fees...
As I said in a previous response, it does not matter how much net profit he made if all of the money he generated was based on illegal activity. If I stole a TV and sold it for $100, does it matter that I spent $20 on gas driving the TV to the place I was going to sell it, or $10 for a baseball bat to help smash my way into the house? I am not claiming that these two crimes are equivalent, but you do see where the difference between gross and net does not matter from a legal perspective.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
So a UK citizen undertakes activities that are legal in the UK, and are limited to the UK. The website was hosted in the Netherlands.
Now he faces extradition to the US because it is illegal over in a country he is not a citizen or resident of.
There are so many things wrong with this I don't know where to begin.
What happened to sovereignty? If the UK does not feel this crime warrants legislation, why should the US get to override it? Shouldn't the US be pressuring the UK to adopt similar legislation if it wants to curtail 'link piracy'?
Historically when people visited foreign countries they adhered to the law of the land. Does US law now trump all other law?
If I set up a website now, should I only allow Australian visitors? Otherwise I'd have to learn what is and isn't legal in every other nation that Australia has a diplomatic relationship with! Remember that there are plenty of nations out there that consider content critical of their governments to be illegal.
GuppyShark wrote:So a UK citizen undertakes activities that are legal in the UK, and are limited to the UK. The website was hosted in the Netherlands.
Now he faces extradition to the US because it is illegal over in a country he is not a citizen or resident of.
There are so many things wrong with this I don't know where to begin.
What happened to sovereignty? If the UK does not feel this crime warrants legislation, why should the US get to override it? Shouldn't the US be pressuring the UK to adopt similar legislation if it wants to curtail 'link piracy'?
Historically when people visited foreign countries they adhered to the law of the land. Does US law now trump all other law?
If I set up a website now, should I only allow Australian visitors? Otherwise I'd have to learn what is and isn't legal in every other nation that Australia has a diplomatic relationship with! Remember that there are plenty of nations out there that consider content critical of their governments to be illegal.
This is something I brought up in a previous post too.
If any of the money involved in this went to or from America in any way (if an American company had paid for ad space, if American money was donated to the site as examples) then it opens the door for the US to make a case. That is what they did with Megaupload and the guy in New Zealand. It could even be that the door was opened because American citizens were using the site, and this British fellow was unwittingly helping Americans commit crimes which could be opening something up.
Anyone operating a web site that deals in any kind of file sharing internationally should immediately stop doing any kind of business with American companies, block US users from using the sites, and isolate themselves from the US government being able to form any sort of case they can use to convince other governments to let them have their way. US users are not worth the trouble at this point in time.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
That makes no sense. If we extend that logic than it basically removes any sort of sovereignty for non American nations. For example, should America institute prohibition of alcohol tomorrow. Using this very same logic they could demand extradition of any person that holds alcohol stores in foreign countries on account that said stores allow their tourists to violate American law should they happen to be in said country. (to give a random example) And the solution would be to say that each shop owner should post an armed guard with a shotgun checking if any potential buyers are American.
Am I the only one here who thinks this is seriously fucked up?
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
