US Marines Pose With SS Flag In Afghanistan

[noncredible]

If your workplace prohibited you from showing any
iconography from the Knights of the Order of the Garter,
would you know what that meant? Would you look it up, or
just assume that given that you don't know what that is, it's
exceedingly unlikely that you will actually display any of
it?

If they feel the need to prohibit it in their regulations, I would look it up, yes.

[Darth Wong]

I love the way Alkaloid clings to his bullshit assumption that only one guy in the group actually knew what the symbol is. And how does he cling to this assumption? By mumbling that it's "likely", because he assumes that the group in this picture was not self-selecting, ie- they were randomly chosen and it is unlikely to randomly choose 10 neo-Nazis.

And why does he assume that the group in the picture was not self-selected in any way? Well, no reason at all, of course. He simply assumes that they sort of randomly fell together, and that there is no conceivable mechanism through which the racists in the unit would be able to identify each other and then form camaraderie on that basis. Because, you know, that sort of thing just doesn't happen.

[Baffalo]

The wording makes it sound as though they've been booted out, but it isn't a direct quote, so it's impossible to be sure.

Well the image is supposed to be from 2010 so it's likely they simply rotated out of the unit to different assignments, though I don't know how often men transfer in and out of units.

[noncredible]

How big are units like these, generally?

[Shadow6]

Marine scout snipers used Nazi SS logo

By Dan Lamothe - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Feb 9, 2012 13:52:13 EST

Marine Corps scout snipers used the logo of the notorious Nazi SS organization while in Afghanistan in 2010, the service acknowledged Thursday.

The logo appeared on a flag in a photograph of the platoon taken in September 2010 in Sangin district, a hotly contested area in Helmand province. The Marines were with Charlie Company, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion, out of Camp Pendleton, Calif., and are shown sitting in combat gear with the U.S. flag and a blue flag with the stylized “SS” logo hanging behind them.

The logo also appears on a 7.62mm M40 sniper rifle carried by a Marine in another photograph distributed Thursday by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. Information embedded electronically with the image shows that it was released by the Marine Corps in 2004 and taken at the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center at Twentynine Palms, Calif. The two Marines in it were with the scout sniper platoon with 1st Battalion, 7th Marines.

Combined, the two photographs suggest that the practice has been carried out for years. The logo’s use is an apparent nod to “scout sniper,” a position exclusive to the Corps. The Army has scouts and snipers, but considers the positions to be separate.

“We don’t have all the information, but we know enough to know the Marine Corps needs to open a full investigation,” said Mikey Weinstein, the foundation’s president. “If these guys just get a non-judicial punishment, it’s absolutely absurd.”

The SS, or Schutzstaffel, was a paramilitary organization under the Nazi Party. It committed a variety of war crimes, and was outlawed by Germany after World War II.

The inspector general at I Marine Expeditionary Force at Pendleton was made aware of the “SS” flag photograph in November, said Capt. Gregory Wolf, a spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters. The Marines involved were ordered to stop using the logo. Marine officials at the Pentagon declined to comment on whether the Marines faced any discipline, saying the issue was handled on the unit level at Pendleton.

A Marine official, speaking on background due to the sensitivity of the issue, said the Corps’ leadership was not aware of the SS logo’s use until it came to their attention late last year.

“We don’t believe these Marine Corps snipers had a historical appreciation for what this symbol meant,” the official said. “As soon as leadership was made aware of it, they took action at the unit level and then passed that information throughout the sniper community and to those snipers serving in Afghanistan.”

That seems possible, said Allen Falk, national commander of the Jewish War Veterans of the United States of America.

“We believe that these young men likely did not understand the significance of this symbol, and we call on the Marine Corps to increase education on American history,” he said. “This issue goes beyond one of racism or anti-Semitism. Our fellow Americans fought and died to stop the Nazis, and it is shameful for any member of the military to display the symbols of Nazi Germany.”

The Corps has addressed the use of the SS logo before, however. A PowerPoint presentation posted on a Marine Corps website said it should not be used in any tattoos. The logo was used by German special police during World War II and is still used by neo-Nazis and graffiti to characterize anti-Semitism, white supremacy and facism, according to the presentation.

The MRFF said Thursday in a letter sent to Commandant Gen. Jim Amos, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and other top Pentagon officials that it was contacted by 45 active-duty Marines concerned about the photographs.

“The implication of these photographs, if true, should be readily apparent,” the letter said. “If the use of the Nazi insignia has been, in any way, condoned or tolerated by the Marine Corp.[sic], the implications are abhorrent to everything for which our country is fighting and the constitutional principles for which it stands.”

So not an isolated incident. Different unit from back in 2004.

[madd0ct0r]

any one know when the regualtion /briefing against using the ss logo was? article isn't clear.

EDIT: nevermind - shadow6 ninja'd that.

[Darth Wong]

It's also worth pointing out that if it was indeed a case of ignorance, it would only take one guy in the unit who knew what the symbol meant, in order to tell everyone and blow the lid off the thing.

Unless ... there is a pervasive atmosphere of permissiveness about these kinds of neo-Nazi symbols, along with an atmosphere of "shut the fuck up" to anyone who doesn't like it. In that case, the one guy would be told to shut up, and perhaps even ostracized or hazed if he said anything. Which would mean that everyone knows what it means.

[Sea Skimmer]

How big are units like these, generally?

~450 personal in a Marine Recon Battalion, of which four exist. Each marine infantry battalion also has a scout sniper platoon of 30-40 guys which is another place they might be sent. If the CO was pissed enough they might have been sent back to the regular infantry, but I doubt it.

It's also worth pointing out that if it was indeed a case of ignorance, it would only take one guy in the unit who knew what the symbol meant, in order to tell everyone and blow the lid off the thing.

Unless ... there is a pervasive atmosphere of permissiveness about these kinds of neo-Nazi symbols, along with an atmosphere of "shut the fuck up" to anyone who doesn't like it. In that case, the one guy would be told to shut up, and perhaps even ostracized or hazed if he said anything.

Its also very possible someone said hey 'the SS had Muslim divisions anyway so who really cares'.

[noncredible]

It's also worth pointing out that if it was indeed a case of ignorance, it would only take one guy in the unit who knew what the symbol meant, in order to tell everyone and blow the lid off the thing.

Unless ... there is a pervasive atmosphere of permissiveness about these kinds of neo-Nazi symbols, along with an atmosphere of "shut the fuck up" to anyone who doesn't like it. In that case, the one guy would be told to shut up, and perhaps even ostracized or hazed if he said anything. Which would mean that everyone knows what it means.

The military probably, for obvious reasons, has more violent fucks per capita than the general civilian population, but is it likely there would be that many?

And, in that hypothetical situation, couldn't the one person who says something speak to his commanding officer?

[Stark]

Its also very possible someone said hey 'the SS had Muslim divisions anyway so who really cares'.

Do you honestly think it matters WHY marines are cruising around with Nazi iconography?

[Sea Skimmer]

Do you honestly think it matters WHY marines are cruising around with Nazi iconography?

Did I fucking say I think it matters to me personally, or what this justifies anything in the bigger picture? I'm pointing out some of the logic groups like this will use to justify this kind of stupidity and how it happens. Sometimes its NOT all about ignorance, but it can be about very stupid interpretations of actual facts.

[MKSheppard]

Ah yes. The Marine Corps.

If I was a congressman I would use this and the pissing incident to call for the USMC to be cut down to it's immediate post WWII size of around 72,000 as they seem to be too stupid to survive without oxygen masks delivering oxygen continuously.

[hongi]

Yeah, it's not like the swastika - i didn't actually recognise it until the article explained the concept.

I was surprised that you didn't recognise it. I thought the SS symbol was one of the most common Nazi symbols seen in movies and tv series, along with the swatiska. Or maybe SDN and its history aficionados have spoiled me?

[Edi]

Use of the SS symbol is not acceptable, and the Marine
Corps has addressed the issue, Lt. Col. Stewart Upton said in
a statement. He did not specify what action was taken.
Upton said the Marines in the photograph, posted on an
Internet blog, are no longer with the unit.

The wording makes it sound as though they've been booted out, but it isn't a direct quote, so it's impossible to be sure.

A Marine Corps Staff Sergeant who ordered "Shoot first, questions later" after an IED bombing led his men to kill 25 unarmed Iraqi civilians in Fallujah and was acquitted essentially of all charges, wasn't booted out and didn't even get a pay reduction. These guys posed with a Nazi flag? They probably got verbally reprimanded with no mention anywhere on their record and that's the extent of it.

[Panzersharkcat]

Yeah, it's not like the swastika - i didn't actually recognise it until the article explained the concept.

I was surprised that you didn't recognise it. I thought the SS symbol was one of the most common Nazi symbols seen in movies and tv series, along with the swatiska. Or maybe SDN and its history aficionados have spoiled me?

I would not have known what that meant before high school. I assume that at least one of those guys passed high school history.

[K. A. Pital]

I quite frankly doubt that an entire Scout Sniper section in the 1st Recon battalion, joining both of which require passing a physical and mental selection process designed to weed out, among other things, individuals that hold attitudes likely to make them unable to work with any locals they might meet in country, would be neo nazis or stupid enough to think they would get away with this.

The physical and mental selection processes used by the military are not centered around the concept of "decent human being", sorry. They're centered around "efficient meatbag killing machine" concept.

[MKSheppard]

Apparently this is a big fucking problem with MAREENS.


Taken last summer in A-Stan


Fallujah 2006.

Mang.

[Thanas]

Everyone of these guys should be made to visit Auschwitz several times over and then get booted out without pay and pension. Of course, none of that will happen. It is almost guaranteed from the "we will not comment on disciplinary measures being taken" that nothing will be done.

[Metatwaddle]

I would not have known what that meant before high school. I assume that at least one of those guys passed high school history.

Have you seen what people think about history? The SS symbol is much more obscure (to Americans, anyway) than the questions on those "Americans don't know shit about history/civics/whatever" articles that get passed around every few years, the ones that drive history teachers to drink and other well-educated people to clutch their pearls and wring their hands about how everyone's so much dumber than them. Here's a fun example: when Newsweek gave 1,000 Americans the US citizenship test, 80% didn't know who was President during WWI, 94% didn't know how many amendments there were to the Constitution, 63% didn't know how many justices were on the Supreme Court, and hilariously, 66% didn't know what happened at the Constitutional Convention. Do you really think the average American high school grad has any clue what the SS logo looks like?

I have no trouble believing that there was one neo-Nazi in the group who gave it to the others and said it meant "Scout Sniper", and the others went along with it because they weren't very smart and the banner seemed, at first glance, to make Scout Snipers look macho and cool. And if you're a Marine, what could be better than looking macho and cool? It's probably not impossible to find ten neo-Nazis in one unit; I just think you're more likely to find one neo-Nazi and nine incurious, credulous, posturing meatheads who didn't recognize the logo. Not that it really matters. This is sort of like that old Daily Show thing about Fox News: are you on Team Evil or Team Stupid? Obviously, the correct answer is "both".

[mr friendly guy]

I'm willing to give KISS a pass, given the fact that Gene Simmons himself is Jewish, and a bunch of 1970s rockers might well be dumb enough to honestly not know (particularly given the fact that there is no reason to believe any of them had any particular interest in history or military things). But given that people in the military have rules they're supposed to follow, and that one of those rules specifically prohibits the use of this particular symbol, I don't see any reason why these guys should get a free pass. This reminds me of the people who say "but the swastika is also used by ancient Buddhists!" That's actually true, but that doesn't mean you can reasonably assume that some jackass waving a swastika around is just being a proud Buddhist.

The funny thing is, those Buddhist swastikas I have seen are mirror images of the Nazi swastika ie no matter how you rotate it you can't get it in the same orientation as the Nazi one. So there is even less plausible using that excuse when you see a Nazi one to mistake it as a Buddhist one.

[Thanas]

The Etruscan, Greek, Roman, Polish and Finnish swastikas however rotate the "right" way.And the Fins actually still use it as a military enblem.

[Julhelm]

Apparently this is a big fucking problem with MAREENS.

Taken last summer in A-Stan

Fallujah 2006.

Mang.

I haven't laughed this hard in weeks. And I don't for a second buy the "ignorance" claim.

[Alkaloid]

I love how blindly the military reverence has become in this shithole of a country that blatant racism by its soldiers is desperately handwaved away by morons who just can't wrap their heads around the idea that alot of our soldiers are pieces of shit.

I'm not an American. And my opinion of the US military swings from amusement to contempt to horror depending on the story I last heard. The fact that anyone in the military could be at best this stupid and at worst this racist doesn't mean that we should just unthinkinly react by firing everyone we see to be involved. There almost has to be more to this story than just 10 neo nazi shitheads with a flag.

So not an isolated incident. Different unit from back in 2004.

OK, so now, after investigation, it looks like there is an institutional problem withing Recon battalions and specifically within the scout sniper cells where at best they are glorifiying nazi iconography and at worst they are almost entirely controlled by neo nazis. There was more to this after all. Big shock. Now, we should start looking into this, who has been doing this, where and why?

Do you honestly think it matters WHY marines are cruising around with Nazi iconography?

It depends on your purposes. If all you want to do is laugh at the USMC for being racist wankers, use it as propaganda against the USMC, or recruit people to the USMC because it's an organisation that supports your racism, then no, it doesn't matter. If you actually want to fix the problem that this sort of thing is a symptom of, then of course it matters.

I haven't laughed this hard in weeks. And I don't for a second buy the "ignorance" claim.

Neiter do I. At least one person knew exactly what that symbol meant, and now, given that this has been going on since at least 2004, there have to have been a significant number of people who have seen it and either not said anything because the approve of it, or because the culture in the battalions is 'shut up about the nazi stuff.' Those people need to be found and sorted out. That doesn't mean everyone did know what was going on, and just throwing out everyone who has been identified with the SS symbol is not the solution because you will possibly get rid of people who had no intent to glorify nazi imagery, and any halfway clever nazis will have made damn sure they werent in any of the photos. There is clearly something wrong in these units, but the answer isn't fire everyone, it's find the people who are the problem and fire them.

The physical and mental selection processes used by the military are not centered around the concept of "decent human being", sorry. They're centered around "efficient meatbag killing machine" concept.

In general, yes. Special forces generally, however, are expected to operate in countries like Afghanistan and it is often their job to work and train with the indigenous population, so there is normally effort put into making sure that they can do it. To be fair the marine recon battalions might not look into this, it is all role dependent.

[Edi]

The Etruscan, Greek, Roman, Polish and Finnish swastikas however rotate the "right" way.And the Fins actually still use it as a military enblem.

Yes, in some air force formations and other instances, for historical reasons. If you run this Wikipedia page through Google Translate, you will get a more detailed version of the historical reasons than is available on the English or even the German version.

With regard to the Finnish military instances that use it, it is most emphatically not symbol of Nazism.

[Stofsk]

Everyone of these guys should be made to visit Auschwitz several times over and then get booted out without pay and pension. Of course, none of that will happen. It is almost guaranteed from the "we will not comment on disciplinary measures being taken" that nothing will be done.

Out of curiosity, what would be the cause for firing these men? Conduct unbecoming a marine? I'd be interested to know how they can be disciplined, but I fear that well, this will just get forgotten.