Do you think the citzens could....?

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-03-07 03:02am

Ahem, it's DG, for Dark Guard. Either way. True though, all out total violence probably won't solve his problem (we can't know for sure until it happens) he's going to have to do something and stand up for himself. Face it Alyrium, this is not a fantasy world. Everyone can hope all the hell they want, trying to make a peaceful outcome with asshats like that ain't going to happen. Your either going to have to call him out, or kick his ass.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-07 03:06am

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Ahem, it's DG, for Dark Guard.

Damn. Must pay more attention to these things, I guess.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-03-07 04:15am

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Bull shit. This is exactly what he needs to do. Hell, find more homosexuals to side with him. Strength in numbers ya know. Hell, he could find straight people that either accept him or sympathise with him.

I know that's how they solve things on TV. but in the real world forming a posse and beating the shit out of the other gang is a great way to wind up in jail on assault or conspiracy charges. Particularly if the posse doing the beating up is from a social fringe group that doesn't have the political clout to get 'fair' treatment from law enforcement.

UltraViolence83 wrote: Knowing first hand what self-defense can do for you in the face of blithering idiots, they may just leave him alone instead of bother him.

Self defense training is always a good idea but responding to some jerk with a loud mouth by punching his lights out will frequently result in an assault charge. Real life isn't high school.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-07 09:16am

Durran Korr wrote:I would be surprised if there were a single open atheist head of state in the world today.

The current Finnish president is an atheist and in the past she has worked for an organisation promoting homosexuals' rights. After she was elected couple years ago, an American fundie group of Christians said that in protest they will come to Helsinki and burn the Finnish flag.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-07 09:36am

Oberleutnant wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:I would be surprised if there were a single open atheist head of state in the world today.
The current Finnish president is an atheist and in the past she has worked for an organisation promoting homosexuals' rights. After she was elected couple years ago, an American fundie group of Christians said that in protest they will come to Helsinki and burn the Finnish flag.

I stand corrected.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-07 09:37am

Enlightenment wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:It's ironic; the first Presidents ever elected were all either deists or atheists, but over 200 years later it's hard to imagine a deist or atheist getting elected.
So much for social progress being inevitable.

It's not like they ran on an open atheist/deist platform. They still had to avoid political suicide by paying lip service to Christianity.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-03-07 09:38am

Frank Hipper wrote:People in the U.S. might vote for a gay candidate.
But never an atheist.

Quoting the Simpson "a gay president for 2084"

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-07 09:40am

Enlightenment wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:It's ironic; the first Presidents ever elected were all either deists or atheists, but over 200 years later it's hard to imagine a deist or atheist getting elected.
So much for social progress being inevitable.

I would still say that social progress is inevitable. We abolished slavery, gave women the right to vote, and passed laws protecting the civil rights of minorities. That's all progress. It will just take a much longer time with atheism because religion is such a sacred cow in America.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-03-07 09:45am

berlin has a gay mayor. and i think schroeder is an atheist. so people DO vote for that type of people.

OT: cool new avatar oberleutnant. i should have thought about that. *grmbl*

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-07 09:51am

Oberleutnant wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:I would be surprised if there were a single open atheist head of state in the world today.
The current Finnish president is an atheist and in the past she has worked for an organisation promoting homosexuals' rights. After she was elected couple years ago, an American fundie group of Christians said that in protest they will come to Helsinki and burn the Finnish flag.

Our current president is an atheist, our last one was also atheist, and both are proud secular humanists.

In Portugal, a presidential candidate who ended a speech with "God bless you all" would more likely lose votes than gain them.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-03-07 12:25pm

Darth Wong wrote:There are laws still on the books which prohibit atheists from serving in public office in several states!

Just a quibble, as I have to leave to pick my sister up from college now and don't have time for an extended debate...those laws may be on the books, but they're totally unenforcable. In Torasco v. Watkins (1961), the court unanimously struck down Maryland's requirement that all public employees profess belief in a supreme being. They made this ruling based on Article 37 of the U.S. Constitution, "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Then, while they were at it, they pissed all over accomidationism (brought up during the recent pledge of allegiance debate):

We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs. (Justice Black, writing the majority opinion).

So those laws might still be on the books, but if an atheist were actually prevented from holding public office because of them, they could take it right to the federal court system and get the law tossed out (I'm not sure why they weren't removed from the books in the first place, but non-enforcement is de facto compliance with the court anyway). This was an unambiguous smackdown, based on an unambigious passage from the constitution, by a unanimous vote that ought to leave zero wiggle room for the states to add religious requirements to public service.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-07 03:18pm

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Actually it is generalizing. To begin and end the flamewar in this very post, I'll just say this. Everyone pounces when you make a gay generalization. Everyone jumped on us when we countered the first American sweep with a Euro sweep. So, yeah, I do find it highly offensive to be labled a bigot in any fashion. Except against ignorance. So, other than that. Besides, if you have people trying to punk you, kick thier ass. That would bruise the crap out of some egos.

I apologize, I was commenting more on the general trend in american politics as of late...to become more and more bigoted. I was makeing a generalization.

Though, It was not a completely unfounded one considering the right-wing slant of politics at the moment

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-07 03:33pm

Ahem, it's DG, for Dark Guard. Either way. True though, all out total violence probably won't solve his problem (we can't know for sure until it happens) he's going to have to do something and stand up for himself. Face it Alyrium, this is not a fantasy world. Everyone can hope all the hell they want, trying to make a peaceful outcome with asshats like that ain't going to happen. Your either going to have to call him out, or kick his ass.

That will not work. not only would I be sinking to his level, but he is considerably bigger than me, and I do not defend myself very well. He tries to get a reaction out of me, and even though he pisses me off, I cant do shit, because he is bigger, stronger, faster, and has more friends than i do. Not only that, but the legallity of such an action would not be in my favor. It would reflect poorly on my GSA.

I cant go to administration seeing as he could bring up a few things himself.'

This whole thing was started when we where fencing with props(In a friendly fashion) I lunged forward, aiming for his midsection, he foolishly turned around and took a step forward, I had put most of my weight into that and couldnt pull it back in time. As my body moved foreward, wooden prop sword moved down in its trajectory, and struck a place it shouln't have. I apologized, but he has been...stupid, ever since. I do not expect that the situation will escalate beyond the point it has however. he is trying to provoke me into a fight, it will not work.

Using that, it could be argued that I have been sexually harrassing him, and I would get in a shitload of trouble.(ie. expulsion) seeing as i would not be able to defend myself or be treated fairly.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-07 06:25pm

salm wrote:berlin has a gay mayor. and i think schroeder is an atheist. so people DO vote for that type of people.

OT: cool new avatar oberleutnant. i should have thought about that. *grmbl*

Hehheh, thanks

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-07 06:27pm

Durran Korr wrote:I would still say that social progress is inevitable. We abolished slavery, gave women the right to vote, and passed laws protecting the civil rights of minorities. That's all progress. It will just take a much longer time with atheism because religion is such a sacred cow in America.

Note that the trend with religion is in the WRONG direction, and has been ever since the foundation of the country. There is no reason to believe from those other examples that the religious fervour and cyclical intolerance which grips America is going to improve at any time in the foreseeable future.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-07 06:30pm

RedImperator wrote:So those laws might still be on the books, but if an atheist were actually prevented from holding public office because of them, they could take it right to the federal court system and get the law tossed out (I'm not sure why they weren't removed from the books in the first place, but non-enforcement is de facto compliance with the court anyway). This was an unambiguous smackdown, based on an unambigious passage from the constitution, by a unanimous vote that ought to leave zero wiggle room for the states to add religious requirements to public service.

The fact that one must go to court in order to take one's job is a disincentive and a clear message. Even if a law is only symbolic, it means something. Why do you think 40% of Alabama's voters wanted to keep interracial marriage illegal even though they knew it wouldn't survive a court challenge? Because they know that most people can't or won't put themselves through that kind of three-ring media circus. And they know it sends a message that millions of Alabamans still proudly remember their slave-owner roots, so anyone thinking of marrying outside their race will avoid their state like the plague.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-03-07 08:42pm

Over the years, many Americans have accepted woman's rights and homosexuality, but their overall view of Atheism has barely changed. I've noticed whenever a politician says something even slightly racist or homophobic, the media has a field day with it, while they can slam Atheists all they want and get away with it. Before an Athiest has any chance of becoming president of the Untied States, they have to prove that those Americans are wrong in their views, but I don't see that happening.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-07 10:19pm

Durran Korr wrote:I would still say that social progress is inevitable. We abolished slavery, gave women the right to vote, and passed laws protecting the civil rights of minorities. That's all progress. It will just take a much longer time with atheism because religion is such a sacred cow in America.

Depends on what the majority's definition of "social progress" is. Take a look at anceint Rome, they used slaves throughout their society, and even their govenmental bureacracy. So in thier view, our aboltion of slavery would be seen as "degenerative" to society.

I myself would have to say that the only social progress we can ever be certain of is simply change.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-03-07 10:48pm

Enlightenment wrote:
DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Bull shit. This is exactly what he needs to do. Hell, find more homosexuals to side with him. Strength in numbers ya know. Hell, he could find straight people that either accept him or sympathise with him.
I know that's how they solve things on TV. but in the real world forming a posse and beating the shit out of the other gang is a great way to wind up in jail on assault or conspiracy charges. Particularly if the posse doing the beating up is from a social fringe group that doesn't have the political clout to get 'fair' treatment from law enforcement.

UltraViolence83 wrote: Knowing first hand what self-defense can do for you in the face of blithering idiots, they may just leave him alone instead of bother him.
Self defense training is always a good idea but responding to some jerk with a loud mouth by punching his lights out will frequently result in an assault charge. Real life isn't high school.

Oh give me a fucking break with the 'this is not TV' bull shit. you don't beat the crap out of someone in broad day light. You jump them at night in a parking lot of some seedy grocery store. Get out from behind your fucking computer you asshat and learn about the real world. Not everyone gets caught like you 'see on TV' Enlightenment.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-03-07 10:51pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Actually it is generalizing. To begin and end the flamewar in this very post, I'll just say this. Everyone pounces when you make a gay generalization. Everyone jumped on us when we countered the first American sweep with a Euro sweep. So, yeah, I do find it highly offensive to be labled a bigot in any fashion. Except against ignorance. So, other than that. Besides, if you have people trying to punk you, kick thier ass. That would bruise the crap out of some egos.
I apologize, I was commenting more on the general trend in american politics as of late...to become more and more bigoted. I was makeing a generalization.

Though, It was not a completely unfounded one considering the right-wing slant of politics at the moment

Oh, I ain't worried about you. I knew where you were coming from on that one. Just that it let little asshats i.e. Enlightenment jump in there. Oh well, stupid people jump at stupid tricks.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-07 11:09pm

Oh give me a fucking break with the 'this is not TV' bull shit. you don't beat the crap out of someone in broad day light. You jump them at night in a parking lot of some seedy grocery store. Get out from behind your fucking computer you asshat and learn about the real world. Not everyone gets caught like you 'see on TV' Enlightenment.

I fear I must side with enlightenment on this particular issue. I am not compentent to be in a physical confrontation with another person with the intent of causing harm. Not only do I fear legal repurcussions, but I would get my queer ass handed to me by this person, not only that, but the next day he would jump me with a bunch of friends. No, fighting is what he wants me to do, and it is not going to happen in this case.

Where it someone I could possibly beat that had a sense of honor, the story would be different, but not as the situation stands.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-07 11:18pm

My advice: Voodoo hex the little bitch.

Just tell him that. No matter if he believes it or not, It'll be in the back of his head and get at him more and more. Tell him you cursed his name to all gods imaginable, and burned a picture of him with a black candle. MUHAHAHAHAHAW!!!!

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-07 11:18pm

Now that that issue is settled, bac to the original topic. The Green party canidate for governer of Michigan is an open atheist. You can find one of his speeches here.http://atheistviewpoint.tv/realaudio/e379.ram(requires real player)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-07 11:21pm

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Oh give me a fucking break with the 'this is not TV' bull shit. you don't beat the crap out of someone in broad day light. You jump them at night in a parking lot of some seedy grocery store. Get out from behind your fucking computer you asshat and learn about the real world. Not everyone gets caught like you 'see on TV' Enlightenment.

Hmmmm, what smart remark would you use when he reports the assault to the police, names his attacker, testifies against you in court, and you end up taking it up the ass in prison?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-07 11:22pm

I may be gay but ass rape is bad children.