is it just me or are original trilogy lightsabers cooler

[Darth Tedious]

Anyway, I've always had the same reaction as VF5SS to the action scene on the sail barge: it does seem like more of a "madcap", ensemble-cast action scene rather than a demonstration of Luke's new elite Jedi skillz. But yeah, it's pretty obvious that the whole Jabba sequence was meant to show off Luke's new skills, it just utterly failed to convey that effectively. I never thought "oh shit, Luke's Jedi training really paid off!" - my reaction was more like "here's another ensemble action sequence starring the antics of Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Lando Calrissian!"

I think the only moment in RotJ that really conveys "Luke has become much more powerful since the last film" is when he Force-chokes the two Gammorean guards out of his way- which of course, doesn't reflect any Jedi training at all.

Just thinking about that, I can't help but feel that the danger of Luke turning to the Darkside was kind of understated in RotJ...

[Havok]

As for Luke in the OT, the only time he has a lightsaber against someone not named Vader is on the sail barge and when he is thrown from the speeder bike. Keep in mind that he blocked the shit out of the far faster and more powerful bolts of the speeder with relative ease. The guy on the deck had snuck up behind and got a lucky shot on what was essentially a Padawan when it came to training.

Also, I think it's interesting that the only time Luke is hit, it's in his mechanical hand, as opposed to a living part of him.

I think that GL isn't a complete idiot and needed to set the stage for the realization in the throne room later that Luke was dangerously close to becoming his father and that he wanted the symbolism of the mechanical nature of both hands showing. It losses a little something if Luke isn't looking at his hand he had to cover with a black glove and is just looking at what looks like a perfectly normal hand.

[Gunhead]

I basically agree with Havok on this one and might I add that this one wasn't about someone magically finding their true potential so plot gets fulfilled. Which I think just adds to the scene as a whole.
Luke was duking it out with Vader on equal grounds not just holding his own.

-Gunhead

[Havok]

I don't see how or why the Jedi ended up on geonosis is relevant to the ass kicking they received there.

The badly written part I am referring to is the actual why of why the Jedi needed to go in the way they did. There were other ways to show that the Jedi weren't what they were that could have been handled better story telling wise.

I think it just basically shows how having some magic kung fu and a sword doesn't make you immune to being shot at when you lack character shields. Not to mention the end of RoTS.

See Red's insight on this for a proper analysis and the correct answer.

I also don't see how Luke is a padawan unless you count EU, which I'm not familiar with and I aim to keep it that way.

You mean aside from Yoda straight up telling him he isn't a Jedi yet a half an hour later in the movie?

On a similar note, lucky or not, all hits count and while Havok might think the shooter was lucky, I say Luke was lucky he didn't block it with his forehead.

So you acknowledge it was all about luck.

I also firmly believe that the reason for Jedi working in pairs is that it reduces the chance of getting shot in the back greatly which is a perfectly viable tactic for killing a Jedi like RoTS aptly demonstrates.

Isn't that what I said... There isn't anything that they deal with that requires more than two of them. Do I need to spell out every single reason? And you can also throw in, you know, because there are only 10,000 of them that work in the ENTIRE FUCKING GALAXY. That's an impossible amount of ground to cover for any amount of Jedi given their available numbers.

I mean it's not like it's unprecedented, Han got the drop on Vader, twice if you count him taking pot shots at him in Bespin.

It is unprecidented for every Jedi out in the galaxy to be surrounded by 2-1000 troops with orders to turn on them though. And fucking please. Han getting the drop on Vader? Come on. In ANH, Vader was flying... straight... straight in a trench... straight in a trench for like 2 minutes. I could have hit him with a fucking spitball. And on Bespin, if Han had gotten the "drop" on Vader he would have shot him in the face, or y'know, not gone in the door in the first place.

It's amazing how people "remember" things in order to suit their own arguments sometimes.

[Havok]

I actually think the Geonosis debacle fits the themes of the PT pretty well. The Jedi walk in to the arena waving their lightsabers, symbol of legal and religious authority etc., expecting to win because they're Jedi and when Jedi flash the lightsaber (this sounds like a thinly veiled sexual innuendo), people back down or else.

And then they get slaughtered, because the legal authority of the Republic doesn't intimidate the separatists and the spiritual authority of the Jedi doesn't intimidate the Sith, and it turns out, even Jedi can't deflect massed blaster fire. That they have to be rescued by the clones just drives the message even further home: the days of the Jedi keeping peace and order are over. The magic is gone.

Yeah, Lucas does a good job of showing what has happened to the Jedi, it's just something gets lost in trying to tie it into a coherent story that the viewers can easily understand.

I mean... it's like the movie should come with nerds to explain stuff and that is bad.

[Havok]

Anyway, I've always had the same reaction as VF5SS to the action scene on the sail barge: it does seem like more of a "madcap", ensemble-cast action scene rather than a demonstration of Luke's new elite Jedi skillz. But yeah, it's pretty obvious that the whole Jabba sequence was meant to show off Luke's new skills, it just utterly failed to convey that effectively. I never thought "oh shit, Luke's Jedi training really paid off!" - my reaction was more like "here's another ensemble action sequence starring the antics of Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Lando Calrissian!"

I think the only moment in RotJ that really conveys "Luke has become much more powerful since the last film" is when he Force-chokes the two Gammorean guards out of his way- which of course, doesn't reflect any Jedi training at all.

Just thinking about that, I can't help but feel that the danger of Luke turning to the Darkside was kind of understated in RotJ...

In the context of ROTJ, or even the OT alone... yes.

Now imagine you had already seen the PT then saw the OT for the first time. Watching Luke give into his anger, disregard Obi-Wan and Yoda's warnings, go off to save his loved ones and friends... You would be waiting for Darth Vader V.2. It makes the scene in the Emperor's Throne Room on the Death Star when Luke rejects everything his father gave into, that much more meaningful.

It also demonstrates that Luke cannot exist without the failures of his father. Yeah, he would have been Luke, Anakin Skywalker's son, but he wouldn't have been Luke Mother- "You've failed your highness. I'll never turn to the dark side. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." -Fucking Skywalker.

[Gunhead]

The badly written part I am referring to is the actual why of why the Jedi needed to go in the way they did. There were other ways to show that the Jedi weren't what they were that could have been handled better story telling wise

So? Jedi go in. Have ass handed to them.

See Red's insight on this for a proper analysis and the correct answer.

Who is that and why should I care?

You mean aside from Yoda straight up telling him he isn't a Jedi yet a half an hour later in the movie?

Mean Yoda was holding out on him? Somehow not giving the hope of all jedi kind the straight dope? Not making sure our hero boy does what he's told?

So you acknowledge it was all about luck.

I see reading comprehension is not your strong point. I said "lucky or not" makes no fucking difference in this case.

Isn't that what I said... There isn't anything that they deal with that requires more than two of them. Do I need to spell out every single reason? And you can also throw in, you know, because there are only 10,000 of them that work in the ENTIRE FUCKING GALAXY. That's an impossible amount of ground to cover for any amount of Jedi given their available numbers.

So? Bunch of them die on geonosis. Bunch more of them die at the end of RoTS, Jedi masters if I might add.

It is unprecidented for every Jedi out in the galaxy to be surrounded by 2-1000 troops with orders to turn on them though. And fucking please. Han getting the drop on Vader? Come on. In ANH, Vader was flying... straight... straight in a trench... straight in a trench for like 2 minutes. I could have hit him with a fucking spitball. And on Bespin, if Han had gotten the "drop" on Vader he would have shot him in the face, or y'know, not gone in the door in the first place.

So lets see... Vader.. a sith/jedi what ever got surprised TWICE by the same guy. First attack foiled his aim sending him spinning along with the other not doing much at all, but being a case of over confidence stupidity / something else on his part?... Am I missing something important.. no I think not.

It's amazing how people "remember" things in order to suit their own arguments sometimes.

No it's amazing how full of shit people like you are and how much you lean on EU shit to make the Jedi T3h awsumnest T3h evah!

-Gunhead

[Shroom Man 777]

His contrast to his father's failures, in casting aside his hubris and self and allowing to be roasted by Palpatoid, while at the same time saying that he is the same as his father, a Jedi who will never turn to the darkside, was the ultimate victory that redeemed Anakin Skywalker - because what he saw there was his son, and himself as well, everything that he ever was, everything that he could've been, and everything that was taken from him, everything that he will never be.

[Eleas]

Also, I think it's interesting that the only time Luke is hit, it's in his mechanical hand, as opposed to a living part of him.

I think that GL isn't a complete idiot and needed to set the stage for the realization in the throne room later that Luke was dangerously close to becoming his father and that he wanted the symbolism of the mechanical nature of both hands showing. It losses a little something if Luke isn't looking at his hand he had to cover with a black glove and is just looking at what looks like a perfectly normal hand.

Oh, absolutely, that's obviously the theme. In-universe, though, themes aren't an explanation, whereas the idea that Luke might have difficulty defending something not actually part of his body (the prosthesis) might be one. Speculation, in other words.

[Gunhead]

Bah.. shouldn't post at 4am it seems.
Forgot to mention how in the same scene where Yoda says Luke isn't a Jedi knight yet he also basically says there's nothing more he can teach him. Havok is also totally wrong saying there's nothing that requires two Jedi, we see Obi Wan and Anakin get into enough trouble in the prequels that says having backup is a pretty good idea. They also reference how many times they have saved each others asses. I think you can pretty much put Qui Gon there too. Sure a non Jedi could do backup also, but I think having two guys with intimate knowledge of each others capabilities sure goes a long way.

More on topic, to me it's not just the lightsabers that are cooler, it's the whole way the Jedi are portrayed something representing the good old days but are kept more in the background until the RoTJ.

-Gunhead

[jollyreaper]

the OT lightsabers are imbibed with meaning from the emotional resonance of the characters on screen as their ordeals appeal to us on a basic human level

the PT lightsabers do nothing to us because what we see on screen do not have anywhere near the degree of meaning imbibed into them because what we see on screen is meaningless

Yeah. That's kind of the feel I get. I loved the whole scene in Ben's hermitage where Luke finds out what's been kept from him. Dad, the lightsaber, everything. Exposition scenes can often be terrible drags but Guinness just laid it on so nice.

The lightsaber fight in ANH was, from pretty much every technical standpoint, absolutely crap. TPM has it beat in almost every way -- technical sophistication, martial artistry, it's got bells and bangles and sprinkles. Just NO EMOTIONAL WEIGHT. Even as I laugh at Kenobi doing his little old man twirl to whack at Vader with his lightsaber, there's still the emotional weight of everything going down there.

I think part of it is just the difference in pacing between older movies and newer movies in general, aside from the sins of Lucas. Too much of modern Hollywood is about throwing so much crap at the screen that people should go into autistic withdrawal from too much stimulation. Instead of picking precisely the right tool for the job out of the toolbox, the director carries the entire box up several flights of stairs to reach the top floor, gains access to the roof and proceeds to upend the entire box over the edge of the building, right over the audience. You have no idea what the hell just flattened you but should be impressed.

[jollyreaper]

/quote]People are obviously conflating Samuel L. Jackson with his character when they say that, like he's really Jules Winnfield sitting there in Jedi robes. In reality, not only are you right that the character is weak and ineffectual, but the performance itself is abominable. I fucking love Samuel L. Jackson as much as the next guy, so it pains me to say that, but he was awful in the PT. Very flat, and a lot of his lines, especially exposition, were delivered like he was reading them off a cue card.

There's the saying that a bad director can ruin any actor's performance while a good director might get a great performance from a mediocre actor.

i completely agree with your assessment here. Sam Jackson can sound badass taking dump. He can sound badass ordering a cup of coffee. He can dial it back when badassery is not on the menu but he usually delivers whatever's been requested. I don't think Lucas ever placed an order.

[jollyreaper]

I still think the duel in Empire is the best lightsabre duel ever filmed, even though the choreography is pretty clunky (witness Vader gracelessly trying to hammer Luke with his lightsabre) and the VFX were a bit inconsistent. But the atmosphere and tension in that scene is fucking amazing.

As I've been given to understand, real sword fighting isn't terribly cinematic. Samurai duels could be over in a few seconds. I've seen real footage of gunfights, both professionals and amateurs and proficiency usually goes right out the window. It's all awkward, confused, and desperate scrambling.

Poetic deaths of course bend to the needs of the work. In real life a gunshot could leave you dead in seconds, unconscious and bleeding out in minutes, gasping for breath and dying ugly in a few minutes, immobile and conscious with prolonged agony or relatively mobile but gradually leading to death through infection and blood loss.

There are certain poetic conventions we're willing to overlook so long as they're not too cliche. Sometimes we need dying words. Sometimes we need a dead body and no epigraph. Credulity is strained when a mortally-wounded character has time to deliver a soliloquy or sing a libretto.

I think our suspension of disbelief can extend to cinematic swordfights (and by extension lightsaber fights) but that's predicated upon those fights having some kind of real meaning.

In a lot of ways it's quite similar to love scenes. In a good movie it's the culmination of the build-up, the interplay of emotions, the desire of the two characters. This is something meaningful and we want to see the payoff. In a bad movie it's like "Well, this the point in the script where we start making out."

[jollyreaper]

Well, I never felt any connection to the characters because the actors sure didn't so I dunno. Watching them carve up useless opponents isn't a sign of calmness to me. It's just procedural.

This brings up an interesting point. Where is the line where it crosses from "serene martial artists calmly and effortlessly dispatch hordes of enemies" to "bored actors going through rote motions"? Part of the problem may be that for most of the movie the only thing we see the droids actually fight are the Jedi. And the one real exception to that is them fighting the Gungan army, but the Gungans are tainted by Jar Jar being the only Gungan we see for most of the movie.

Well, part of it is the impetus to put faceless mooks in so you can feel better about wiping them out. The thing is, Stormtroopers were pretty badass on their first appearance. The soldiers on that ship got blasted to pieces in short order. Stormies didn't start to look really stupid until ROTJ.

The battledroids never managed to look proper and menacing. They were too kiddie. I mean in terms of cinematic fright factor we've got Terminator on one end and battledroids on the other. A goddamn robot daggit is more intimidating.

I don't agree that greenscreen is the big problem. I think that it's the lack of appreciation for proper pacing, effects, and storytelling, no balance. I think that Darth Lucas could have made just as awful a movie as TPM solely sticking with 70's and 80's tech.

By comparison, LOTR was loaded with just as much greenscreen and felt like a proper movie. Pacing, proportion, a sense of restraint -- this is when we let you get catch your breath, this is when we whack you over the head and take that breath away.

[Luke Skywalker]

What's so fucking moronic is that George Lucas actually emphasized the B1 droids' uselessness in an interview. He was like "yeah, they're pretty useless. The Jedi cut them up like butter." As if he thinks that making your primary baddies completely incompetent were a thing to brag about.

In terms of lightsaber choreography, I'd prefer a combination of the brilliant choreography of the Prequels, the emotional impact of the Originals and the awesome music of both, of course. The Prequels had impressive lightsaber duels, but half of them seemed to exist for little reason at all other than superficially advancing the plot and looking cool. Why is Maul the Big Bad (that actually fights) of TPM again? Why is the duel with Dooku important?

And marginally more realism to the duels would be nice. The movements look awesome, but there are some scenes in both trilogies when combatants make completely unnecessary spins and use shitty technique (like Luke Skywalker swinging his lightsaber like a baseball bat).

[Havok]

The context of Lucas saying that is important. He goes on to explain the ineptness of the droids is what prompts the creation of the clones.

[jollyreaper]

The context of Lucas saying that is important. He goes on to explain the ineptness of the droids is what prompts the creation of the clones.

Meh. I like what someone else here said about "If clones are a bad thing, they should have been what was being fought against." That would make sense. Bad guys are building a giant, loyal clone army. And not all of one guy but many lines of the best warrior candidates they can find.

To my kid's ear, I always misheard the original line as "Colonial War" instead of "Clone War." Upon having it pointed out it was plain as day. Back then I had some crazy idea that the Colonial War had something to do with people like the Colonial Warriors in Galactica.

One other thing Lucas never retconned -- it was all one big clone war so why is it called wars plural?

[Jim Raynor]

Maybe the fragmented nature of the Confederacy was a part of it. The Separatists may have been dominated by big business interests, but the one thing that united them was opposition to the Republic. They were united by their desire for disunity. In AOTC, Dooku mentions thousands of random worlds ready to join up with the big power players in the Separatist movement. I doubt they all signed up just to submit themselves to the Trade Federation. Basically any planet that had a problem with the Republic could be "Separatist." And on each of those planets, there may be loyalists who didn't want to leave. The Clone Wars was probably a big, messy conflict with various groups fighting for different reasons, and numerous sub-campaigns involved.

[Havok]

It's amazing how people "remember" things in order to suit their own arguments sometimes.

No it's amazing how full of shit people like you are and how much you lean on EU shit to make the Jedi T3h awsumnest T3h evah!

-Gunhead

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Oh fucking man. Funniest thing I have read in ages.

[Gunhead]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Oh fucking man. Funniest thing I have read in ages.

No it's not, what is really funny is how Force is made into "invent a new super power of the day" rather than having talentless hacks keep it in their pants and keep the force as a mysterious thing that affects all in the SW universe. Or are you just referencing the fact that you hate the EU and I'm somehow supposed to remember that, or care? Well, here's the thing. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing separating the prequels from the EU shit is the prequels have better special effects. Other than that the whole prequel trilogy is just like your bulk average EU creation, not one of the really bad ones mind you.

-Gunhead

[Havok]

I don't care what you remember. Your idiotic statement amused the hell out of me.
And comparing the PT to the EU? That is just "Lucas raped my childhood/didn't make the movies I wanted" whining.

Oh and as for the rest of your post... lots of pulling shit out of your ass, ignoring other posters in the thread and assuming that anything I say is remotely reliant on anything EU related, pretty much invalidates your whole opinion and stance in this thread.

I also love how because it is explained how living beings have a connection to the Force that it in ANY WAY explains The Force. The Force is still as mysterious as ever. Fucking retarded crybaby.

[Gunhead]

I don't care what you remember. Your idiotic statement amused the hell out of me.
And comparing the PT to the EU? That is just "Lucas raped my childhood/didn't make the movies I wanted" whining.

"Waah waah waah Gunhead is a meanie for not liking the prequels and thus Lucas raped his childhood!" how original. The prequels are mediocre movies at best all on their own and compared to the OT they come across just like your bog standard EU stuff. Very few of the prequels major points I haven't heard about before when everything outside the originals was EU, yeah shocking. Not my fault if Lucas has the need to cross the ts and dot the is on every preconceived notion in his movies and bore the fuck out of me in the process. But you're right, these weren't the movies I wanted, because unlike you I want my movies to be entertaining.

Oh and as for the rest of your post... lots of pulling shit out of your ass, ignoring other posters in the thread and assuming that anything I say is remotely reliant on anything EU related, pretty much invalidates your whole opinion and stance in this thread.

Oh I'm sorry but it's not my fault you come across as a screaming Jedi fanwhore who cannot take it someone dares to disagree with him and as far as ignoring other posters the only poster I should be ignoring is you. So if I'm pulling stuff out of my ass, prove it. I'm sure you can disprove me totally just by the movies alone.. yeah.. because there's only one correct interpretation of the movies and that's your fanboy one, go polish your "lightsaber" wanker.

if you mean:

See Red's insight on this for a proper analysis and the correct answer.

Yeah I read it, and as far as theme's go he has a pretty good point so what? Doesn't invalidate what I said, I just hold a different view on the events.

You mean aside from Yoda straight up telling him he isn't a Jedi yet a half an hour later in the movie?

Not a Jedi doesn't amount to being a padawan, and even if he technically was he did receive what Yoda thought was sufficient training to confront Vader + Emperor. Basically Yoda was nudging him into killing both. Last time I checked, slaying a Sith lord wasn't part of the rite of passage into becoming a full fledged Jedi. He was trained enough to go against two Sith badasses.. not something I gather what is expected of your run out of mill padawan. The other way to look at it was Yoda was just flying on a wing and a prayer... which is sounds stupid in the light of the events preceding RoTJ

So you acknowledge it was all about luck.

Simply put no, but YOU claimed the shooter was lucky, where as I pointed out it can also be viewed as the other way around. I can also say the shooter placed a well aimed shot on what he saw was the weapon hand of Luke and scored a hit but didn't disable it permanently. Fits the events pretty good.

Isn't that what I said... There isn't anything that they deal with that requires more than two of them. Do I need to spell out every single reason? And you can also throw in, you know, because there are only 10,000 of them that work in the ENTIRE FUCKING GALAXY. That's an impossible amount of ground to cover for any amount of Jedi given their available numbers.

I might have misread your post the first time. So what? Geonosis pretty much disagrees with you. You claim there's nothing that requires more than two of them and in the PT that is pretty much the case but it's a pretty over arching claim to make that there's no conceivable scenario where having more than two wouldn't be a good thing. So there few of them around.. again so what? Jedi are a limited resource problem, this is nothing new as such and just tells us they must limit their activities so they don't run out.

Han getting the drop on Vader? Come on. In ANH, Vader was flying... straight... straight in a trench... straight in a trench for like 2 minutes. I could have hit him with a fucking spitball. And on Bespin, if Han had gotten the "drop" on Vader he would have shot him in the face, or y'know, not gone in the door in the first place.

Do I need to explain everything to you? So he was flying merrily along blissfully ignorant of the danger creeping up on him till his wing man blew up. He even had all the time in the world to either a) use his precog to see Han coming b) Use his sensors to see him coming c) All of these. The fact that Han shot up his wing man and not him was just a lucky break for Vader. Or are you arguing Han should have specifically had to target Vader for him to sense he's in danger? On Bespin again, this is matter of perception, I say Han took a shot at Vader and did so fast enough to surprise him but Vader did manage to use the force to block the blast. In my view, Han out drew Vader, even as Vader knew Han was coming. Unless you propose Vader's first plan was to let Han try shoot a few holes in him. The fact that Han drew, fired and hit Vader across the room is no small feat on his part.

I also love how because it is explained how living beings have a connection to the Force that it in ANY WAY explains The Force. The Force is still as mysterious as ever. Fucking retarded crybaby.

If you mean how it was explained in the original trilogy you'd be right. But when PT takes it to "Jedi potential +20 000" I'm going to call BS. If something "mystical" can be neatly measured and quantified with a simple blood test, then I'm sorry but that just damages the mystical aspect for me. But I'm sure you'll have your shitty fanboy excuse ready and you can put on your bathrobe and jump in to defend stupid shit like this. Oh I'm sorry.. did I say bathrobe? It's your special Jedi robe after all.

-Gunhead

[Havok]

I don't care what you remember. Your idiotic statement amused the hell out of me.
And comparing the PT to the EU? That is just "Lucas raped my childhood/didn't make the movies I wanted" whining.

"Waah waah waah Gunhead is a meanie for not liking the prequels and thus Lucas raped his childhood!" how original.

I know. You should come up with more original reasons to not like the prequels.

The prequels are mediocre movies at best all on their own and compared to the OT they come across just like your bog standard EU stuff. Very few of the prequels major points I haven't heard about before when everything outside the originals was EU, yeah shocking. Not my fault if Lucas has the need to cross the ts and dot the is on every preconceived notion in his movies and bore the fuck out of me in the process. But you're right, these weren't the movies I wanted, because unlike you I want my movies to be entertaining.

Mr "IT DOESN'T INVALIDATE MY OPINION!" apparently thinks his invalidates everyone elses. Classic butthurt.
And my gawd... You are complaining about the PT plot points being around in the EU before the PT came out, yet cling to the OT as a shining paragon of ORIGINAL IDEAS? EL OH FUCKING EL.

Oh and as for the rest of your post... lots of pulling shit out of your ass, ignoring other posters in the thread and assuming that anything I say is remotely reliant on anything EU related, pretty much invalidates your whole opinion and stance in this thread.

Oh I'm sorry but it's not my fault you come across as a screaming Jedi fanwhore who cannot take it someone dares to disagree with him and as far as ignoring other posters the only poster I should be ignoring is you. So if I'm pulling stuff out of my ass, prove it. I'm sure you can disprove me totally just by the movies alone.. yeah.. because there's only one correct interpretation of the movies and that's your fanboy one, go polish your "lightsaber" wanker.

There are interpretations that are more correct than others, that is for sure. But of course, you miss the point, that being that you can't even comprehend or acknowledge what you are reading in this thread or the ideas and thoughts the posters here are presenting, so why should anyone think you could do so appropriately with the movies themselves. Answer: We shouldn't.

if you mean:

See Red's insight on this for a proper analysis and the correct answer.

Yeah I read it, and as far as theme's go he has a pretty good point so what? Doesn't invalidate what I said, I just hold a different view on the events.

OHHHHH so you do know who Red is is? I guess that just makes you a liar.

I also don't see how Luke is a padawan unless you count EU, which I'm not familiar with and I aim to keep it that way.

You mean aside from Yoda straight up telling him he isn't a Jedi yet a half an hour later in the movie?

Not a Jedi doesn't amount to being a padawan, and even if he technically was he did receive what Yoda thought was sufficient training to confront Vader + Emperor.

First, you can't even say that without adding a caveat of "even if technically". But YES, before you are a JEDI, when you are being trained by a JEDI or JEDI MASTER that does indeed make you a PADAWAN. Sorry you feel so violated by Lucas, but you are 100% wrong. You may not like the PT, but that doesn't mean you can ignore them. Especially in a thread where comparisons of the two are mandatory.
If you want to be the only retard in existence that wants to pretend that knowing the difference between a Padawan and a Jedi comes from reading EU, well then be my guest dumbfuck.

Basically Yoda was nudging him into killing both.

Nudging? Are you for real? Yes, Yoda and Obi-Wan, were just nudging Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor.

Last time I checked, slaying a Sith lord wasn't part of the rite of passage into becoming a full fledged Jedi. He was trained enough to go against two Sith badasses.. not something I gather what is expected of your run out of mill padawan. The other way to look at it was Yoda was just flying on a wing and a prayer... which is sounds stupid in the light of the events preceding RoTJ

Holy shit you are stupid.
Luke had to face HIMSELF. That was his last hurdle in becoming a Jedi. Are you this dumb that you miss shit that was blatantly put in your face?
But OOPS! Obi-Wan killed a Sith Lord as a Padawan, while his master, who was a full fledged Jedi, got killed by him. What does that tell us boys and girls? That Gunhead is pulling irrelevant shit out of his ass to try to make arguments no one else are involved in.

So you acknowledge it was all about luck.

Simply put no, but YOU claimed the shooter was lucky, where as I pointed out it can also be viewed as the other way around. I can also say the shooter placed a well aimed shot on what he saw was the weapon hand of Luke and scored a hit but didn't disable it permanently. Fits the events pretty good.

Uh... you were the one that said "Luke was lucky he didn't block the blaster bolt with his forehead." When I was talking about luck, it is pretty clear what I meant... lets recap since you don't like quoting what you are arguing about.

As for Luke in the OT, the only time he has a lightsaber against someone not named Vader is on the sail barge and when he is thrown from the speeder bike. Keep in mind that he blocked the shit out of the far faster and more powerful bolts of the speeder with relative ease. The guy on the deck had snuck up behind and got a lucky shot on what was essentially a Padawan when it came to training.

When I say "lucky shot" I'm not talking about his skill or that his aim was lucky, I'm talking about the fact that he was able to get behind Luke at almost point blank range and have the time to take the shot before Luke was able to chop his head off. I thought that would be pretty obvious.

Isn't that what I said... There isn't anything that they deal with that requires more than two of them. Do I need to spell out every single reason? And you can also throw in, you know, because there are only 10,000 of them that work in the ENTIRE FUCKING GALAXY. That's an impossible amount of ground to cover for any amount of Jedi given their available numbers.

I might have misread your post the first time. So what? Geonosis pretty much disagrees with you. You claim there's nothing that requires more than two of them and in the PT that is pretty much the case but it's a pretty over arching claim to make that there's no conceivable scenario where having more than two wouldn't be a good thing. So there few of them around.. again so what? Jedi are a limited resource problem, this is nothing new as such and just tells us they must limit their activities so they don't run out.

No, Geonosis DOES NOT disagree with me. It is the exception. It AS I SAID, is not what the Jedi are used to dealing with.
I mean, I love how in your retarded rebuttals you can say "The evidence disagrees with you, even though it shows what you said is pretty much the case." You should have your mom edit your posts before you submit them. For real.

Han getting the drop on Vader? Come on. In ANH, Vader was flying... straight... straight in a trench... straight in a trench for like 2 minutes. I could have hit him with a fucking spitball. And on Bespin, if Han had gotten the "drop" on Vader he would have shot him in the face, or y'know, not gone in the door in the first place.

Do I need to explain everything to you? So he was flying merrily along blissfully ignorant of the danger creeping up on him till his wing man blew up. He even had all the time in the world to either a) use his precog to see Han coming b) Use his sensors to see him coming c) All of these. The fact that Han shot up his wing man and not him was just a lucky break for Vader. Or are you arguing Han should have specifically had to target Vader for him to sense he's in danger? On Bespin again, this is matter of perception, I say Han took a shot at Vader and did so fast enough to surprise him but Vader did manage to use the force to block the blast. In my view, Han out drew Vader, even as Vader knew Han was coming. Unless you propose Vader's first plan was to let Han try shoot a few holes in him. The fact that Han drew, fired and hit Vader across the room is no small feat on his part.

Wow. I mean... WOW.
You really believe this stuff?
What I am saying is, and it is fucking amazing that you can't figure this out at all considering what you THINK I have been saying, is that The Force is not a be all end all for Jedi or Sith.
My point about Han, was that any schmuck in a his position could have done what he did in the trench as I illustrated with my comment about a spitball.
And how on EARTH do you figure Han was faster than Vader when Vader was able to stand up and block every bolt Han fired before they got within arms reach of him?
Really, please... elaborate on this some more.

I also love how because it is explained how living beings have a connection to the Force that it in ANY WAY explains The Force. The Force is still as mysterious as ever. Fucking retarded crybaby.

If you mean how it was explained in the original trilogy you'd be right. But when PT takes it to "Jedi potential +20 000" I'm going to call BS. If something "mystical" can be neatly measured and quantified with a simple blood test, then I'm sorry but that just damages the mystical aspect for me. But I'm sure you'll have your shitty fanboy excuse ready and you can put on your bathrobe and jump in to defend stupid shit like this. Oh I'm sorry.. did I say bathrobe? It's your special Jedi robe after all.

-Gunhead

Holy fuck sticks you are dumb.
The Force: Unexplained mysterious energy field (a term from the OT by the way ) that has no explanation for how it works, why it works. What we know about it from the OT is that life creates it, makes it grow.
Midichlorians: Sybiotic blood parasites that allow living creatures to sense and manipulate the Force. What we know about them from the PT is that they can tell living creatures the "will" of the Force and that without them there is no life.

What we know: Midichlorians help facilitate life and give a small measure of one's potential in using the Force.
What we DON'T know: What is the Force? Why does life create it? How does it have a will? Why does it have a dark and light side? Why does it want balance? How does it allow people to see the future? How is it that it can effect inanimate objects?

OH NO IT ISN'T MYSTERIOUS AND MYSTICAL ANYMORE!!!! MY ASS AND CHILDHOOD!!!

[Havok]

...EU, which I'm not familiar with and I aim to keep it that way.

No it's amazing how full of shit people like you are and how much you lean on EU shit to make the Jedi T3h awsumnest T3h evah!

-Gunhead

No it's not, what is really funny is how Force is made into "invent a new super power of the day" rather than having talentless hacks keep it in their pants and keep the force as a mysterious thing that affects all in the SW universe. Or are you just referencing the fact that you hate the EU and I'm somehow supposed to remember that, or care? Well, here's the thing. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing separating the prequels from the EU shit is the prequels have better special effects. Other than that the whole prequel trilogy is just like your bulk average EU creation, not one of the really bad ones mind you.

-Gunhead

The prequels are mediocre movies at best all on their own and compared to the OT they come across just like your bog standard EU stuff. Very few of the prequels major points I haven't heard about before when everything outside the originals was EU, yeah shocking.
-Gunhead

You sure seem to be able to compare and contrast fairly well with something you are not familiar with, and go out of you way to keep that way.

Try not being such a blatant, dishonest, lying shit in the future.

[Gunhead]

Prequel fanboy needs everyone to like his new favorite movie and gets pissy if someone doesn't oh the noes.

Since you're fucking stupid, I'll make this real clear to you. I don't care if you like the prequels, or if anyone else does. A thread about relative coolness of X what I like or don't like is perfectly valid and I pretty much explained why I think the originals are cooler.

There are interpretations that are more correct than others, that is for sure. But of course, you miss the point, that being that you can't even comprehend or acknowledge what you are reading in this thread or the ideas and thoughts the posters here are presenting, so why should anyone think you could do so appropriately with the movies themselves. Answer: We shouldn't.

You stupid fucker. I'm putting out how I see the scenes and my take on them, if someone disagrees with this they are free to do so and if I make an error that can be shown, I'll correct my stance.

OHHHHH so you do know who Red is is? I guess that just makes you a liar.

No it makes you a hand waving fuck who can't put up a quote and point out which part was even remotely relevant to what I was saying. I now know who Red is as I skimmed the thread to see what he had to say. Man has a point, more so than you ever will.

First, you can't even say that without adding a caveat of "even if technically". But YES, before you are a JEDI, when you are being trained by a JEDI or JEDI MASTER that does indeed make you a PADAWAN. Sorry you feel so violated by Lucas, but you are 100% wrong. You may not like the PT, but that doesn't mean you can ignore them. Especially in a thread where comparisons of the two are mandatory.
If you want to be the only retard in existence that wants to pretend that knowing the difference between a Padawan and a Jedi comes from reading EU, well then be my guest dumbfuck.

I was referencing EU as to the level of training Luke had since all we know about the extent of his training is Yoda felt he could take on the sith duo. I know the term padawan is in the prequels and I assumed anyone with a half a brain could figure out on their own I was talking about relative amounts of skill not arbitrary titles. I see I was wrong. So yes, while TECHNICALLY still a padawan Luke has all the skills he needs to be a full Jedi, or at least so Yoda implies. Is that clear enough for you or do I start drawing small pictures?

Nudging? Are you for real? Yes, Yoda and Obi-Wan, were just nudging Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor.

Nudge, push, shove, what's the difference?

Holy shit you are stupid.
Luke had to face HIMSELF. That was his last hurdle in becoming a Jedi. Are you this dumb that you miss shit that was blatantly put in your face?
But OOPS! Obi-Wan killed a Sith Lord as a Padawan, while his master, who was a full fledged Jedi, got killed by him. What does that tell us boys and girls? That Gunhead is pulling irrelevant shit out of his ass to try to make arguments no one else are involved in.

Hey lolface, try not to huff and puff so much. Keep typing faster maybe some oxygen will flow to your brain so you can actually understand what I'm saying. I know Obi-Wan killed a Sith lord and nearly got wiped out in the process. BUT IT WAS NOT EXPECTED OF HIM TO REACH FULL JEDI STATUS! Yoda wanted Luke to confront the sith and thus denied him full Jedi status until he had done so. He just used the jedi status as an additional reason for Luke to go and fight. This is again something you could have figured out on your own.

Uh... you were the one that said "Luke was lucky he didn't block the blaster bolt with his forehead." When I was talking about luck, it is pretty clear what I meant... lets recap since you don't like quoting what you are arguing about.
As for Luke in the OT, the only time he has a lightsaber against someone not named Vader is on the sail barge and when he is thrown from the speeder bike. Keep in mind that he blocked the shit out of the far faster and more powerful bolts of the speeder with relative ease. The guy on the deck had snuck up behind and got a lucky shot on what was essentially a Padawan when it came to training. When I say "lucky shot" I'm not talking about his skill or that his aim was lucky, I'm talking about the fact that he was able to get behind Luke at almost point blank range and have the time to take the shot before Luke was able to chop his head off. I thought that would be pretty obvious.

If that's your view, you're welcome to it. In a fight "luck" is something you have if you're left standing. I disagree on Luke being a padawan in terms of skill as to my view he didn't receive all that much additional training when he saw Yoda the last time. Above doesn't change how I see it in anyway otherwise.

No, Geonosis DOES NOT disagree with me. It is the exception. It AS I SAID, is not what the Jedi are used to dealing with.
I mean, I love how in your retarded rebuttals you can say "The evidence disagrees with you, even though it shows what you said is pretty much the case." You should have your mom edit your posts before you submit them. For real.

And you should stop sucking the tit of yours and read what I said. I said I misread your post the first time and even said as far as PT goes you're correct. Geonosis STILL is an event that required way more than two and even if it's the exception I can quite freely use it to tell an idiot like you that your over simplification is blatantly WRONG! So what they're not used to dealing with shit like that? I'm sure you can come up with a whiny fanboy excuse to make me give a shit.

Wow. I mean... WOW.
You really believe this stuff?
What I am saying is, and it is fucking amazing that you can't figure this out at all considering what you THINK I have been saying, is that The Force is not a be all end all for Jedi or Sith.
My point about Han, was that any schmuck in a his position could have done what he did in the trench as I illustrated with my comment about a spitball.
And how on EARTH do you figure Han was faster than Vader when Vader was able to stand up and block every bolt Han fired before they got within arms reach of him?
Really, please... elaborate on this some more.

Let me rephrase that

"blaa blaa blaa blaa I don't like how you view the events"

Han was looking away and was turning to face Vader when Han saw him, pulled his weapon, and shot at him. Vader blocked it with the force and yanked the weapon away. I saw it as Vader thinking he can disarm / intimidate people coming in, Han blasting Vader on reflex, Vader blocks and yanks the gun away. I gather it takes more time to draw and fire a blaster than it takes from a Sith to use the force to block it. All Vader really did was raise his hand since he was pretty much up when Han spotted him. More over Vader knew he was coming so he had time to be ready, and STILL Han managed to take a shot at him.

Holy fuck sticks you are dumb.
The Force: Unexplained mysterious energy field (a term from the OT by the way ) that has no explanation for how it works, why it works. What we know about it from the OT is that life creates it, makes it grow.
Midichlorians: Sybiotic blood parasites that allow living creatures to sense and manipulate the Force. What we know about them from the PT is that they can tell living creatures the "will" of the Force and that without them there is no life.

What we know: Midichlorians help facilitate life and give a small measure of one's potential in using the Force.
What we DON'T know: What is the Force? Why does life create it? How does it have a will? Why does it have a dark and light side? Why does it want balance? How does it allow people to see the future? How is it that it can effect inanimate objects?

OH NO IT ISN'T MYSTERIOUS AND MYSTICAL ANYMORE!!!! MY ASS AND CHILDHOOD!!!

And fanboy again misses the obvious and comes back with a shitty quote about.. something only a fanboy will give a shit about. Force = Energy field in the galaxy and it is what gives a Jedi his power. At the same time, it affects others see for example Han flying his ship through the asteroid field. What we don't know about the force might be a mystery to some but not to ME. I for the most part don't give a fuck about those. Certainly not when everything new about the force is dreary Jedi shit making it even less interesting. So take off the bath.. I mean "your Jedi robe" stop swinging a stick around before you pass out from lack of oxygen to your brain. I guess lack of oxygen would explain your obsession with asses and childhood.

-Gunhead