Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Broomstick »

From CNN, an article on differences between men and women in space - at least so far:
Astronaut feels space's toll on his body

It’s not really why he signed up to be an astronaut, but like it or not, Mike Barratt and his eyes have become a science project.

The eye charts he reads, the red drops that turn his eyes yellow and the ultrasounds being performed on him could determine whether he or any other astronaut ever journeys into deep space or sets foot on other worlds.

NASA’s new priority is how to protect astronauts from going blind on the years-long trip to get wherever they are going.

“I absolutely agree that this is our number one priority,” Barratt said.

Why?

Because when Barratt blasted off to the international space station, he needed eyeglasses for distance. When he returned to Earth, his distance vision was fine, but he needed reading glasses. That was more than two years ago. And he’s not getting better.

“We really need to understand this. This is a critical point for understanding how humans adapt to spaceflight,” he said.

In the past few years, about half of the astronauts aboard the international space station have developed an increasing pressure inside their heads, an intracranial pressure that reshapes their optic nerve, causing a significant shift in the eyesight of male astronauts. Doctors call it papilledema.

Female space travelers have not been affected.

Some of the astronauts slowly recover. Others have not.

Space station astronauts typically spend about six months in orbit.

Barratt is one of 10 male astronauts, all older than 45, who have not recovered. Barratt returned from a six-month stint aboard the station in October 2009 and has experienced a profound change in his sight.

He used to be nearsighted. But now, the space veteran says he’s eagle-eyed at long distance but needs glasses for reading. There is no treatment and no answers as to why female space flyers are not affected.

CNN spent part of a day with Barratt, watching as doctors monitored his progress with high-resolution testing as they try to understand how the weightless environment of space is causing half of all space station astronauts to have this vision change. Today, space station astronauts fly with specially designed variable focus glasses to help combat the vision shift.

“The big benefit of these is that they allow us to adjust for significant prescription changes,” said Dr. Robert Gibson, a senior vision consultant, who was brought in to help study the problem.

Doctors have found that Barratt’s retinas have microscopic folds or wrinkles on them, and the back of his eye, the optic nerve, is no longer round but has flattened.

“I think this is showing that there are physiologic aspects of adaption to spaceflight we weren’t seeing before,” said Barratt.

This raises a red flag for all of NASA’s plans for long-duration human space flight. The space station is supposed to be the test bed for how humans would learn to live in space, but it opens profound questions on whether humans will ever venture to Mars or to an asteroid if they are unable to figure out how the outer-space environment is affecting the eyes.

“This has all of our attention,” said Terry Taddeo, the acting chief of space medicine at Johnson Space Center in Houston.

“It is a serious problem and one we are going to have to understand more about before we would be able to send somebody into a long-duration mission away from Earth, where they would be away for years,” he said.

Right now, the only data that doctors have are from six-month tours of duty on the space station.

NASA has begun doing extensive preflight and postflight eye exams, including high-resolution MRIs of the eyes. There have been anecdotes from some space shuttle astronauts who also complained about vision change, but it does not appear they had long-lasting effects from the much shorter space flights that typically lasted up to about three weeks.

“What we’re seeing appears to occur within the first couple of months of flight and appears to level off, plateau after about four to five months,” Gibson said.

“If it’s just a matter of giving them a stronger prescription, we can live with that,” he said. “But if there is an elevated intracranial pressure as the cause of this, we have to be concerned about other neurologic effects."

That means there could be other effects on the body that haven’t become apparent.

This is why a three-year mission to Mars is in question.

It would be humans' next great leap, and NASA is spending almost $18 billion over the next five years to develop a heavy lift rocket that would take astronauts to the Red Planet or even to an asteroid. They would travel in a new spacecraft, Orion.

But right now, a trip to Mars is still more science fiction than fact. No one is calling this vision problem a showstopper, yet the program’s price tag begs for a solution to be found fast so NASA won’t be building the world’s largest, fastest rocket to nowhere.

Dr. Bruce Ehni, a neurosurgeon at the VA Medical Center at the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, has consulted with NASA and is the only neurosurgeon on their panel.

“If they can’t predict who is at risk ... they put his health in jeopardy. They put, possibly, the mission in jeopardy if he can’t see or do his job effectively,” he said.

But Barratt thinks that any deep space venture to Mars is still 20 years away. He’s hoping that spacecraft will be a whole lot faster than anything the space agency can fly now.

“You fly fast, and you don’t worry,” he said, with a grin.

“I’m still hopeful that in 20 years, we’ll have advanced propulsion capabilities that can get us there in a matter of weeks to a few months. Then, a lot of these problems go away,” he said.
So... are women not affected because
1) They're not affected?
2) It takes them longer to be affected?
3) The sample size of women is too small for the effect to be detected?

I do find it interesting that automatic assumption that if MEN can't go, then WOMEN won't be going instead. Women consume less food, water, and air, they're smaller and can fit into smaller quarters, they are slightly better able to cope with g-forces... and maybe their vision is less affected by space travel?

Hmm....
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Darth Wong »

Even if women are more resistant to the phenomenon than men, it seems rather unlikely that they're totally immune.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Broomstick »

True. I suspect any advantage is more one of degree than immunity. However, when discussing multi-year voyages it could make for a very significant different.

As noted, it does not seem to affect all men, either - it would be interesting to know why.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7517
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Zaune »

A fourth possible explanation occurs to me, but it's both scientifically inaccurate and just plain dirty.

On a more serious note, if it is determined that women are somehow more resistant to whatever's causing this then the various initiatives aimed at getting girls and young women interested in certain traditionally male-dominated fields are going to need to shift up a gear, because as things stand now the pool of available talent is going to be pretty small if it comes to that.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
someone_else
Jedi Knight
Posts: 854
Joined: 2010-02-24 05:32am

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by someone_else »

meh, data is so scarce that it may very well be that those males we select as astronauts do have that issue while others don't.

You either start sending significant amounts of people up or you will never know. (unless blind luck strikes)
I'm nobody. Nobody at all. But the secrets of the universe don't mind. They reveal themselves to nobodies who care.
--
Stereotypical spacecraft are pressurized.
Less realistic spacecraft are pressurized to hold breathing atmosphere.
Realistic spacecraft are pressurized because they are flying propellant tanks. -Isaac Kuo

--
Good art has function as well as form. I hesitate to spend more than $50 on decorations of any kind unless they can be used to pummel an intruder into submission. -Sriad
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Broomstick »

One theory is that women, having adapted to relatively quick and significant changes in blood/fluid volumes to accommodate pregnancy, have a slight advantage over men when things like g-forces affect fluid distribution in the body. Since there is, apparently, a link to cranial pressure here related to zero-g, it may be that, again, women's bodies handle fluid flow/pressure changes better than the men do. None of that is proven, it is purely a hypothesis at this point to explain these differences observed between men and women.

Still, there continues to be hints of assumption that exploration will be done by men or not at all - but if it turns out that women are, in fact, better able to tolerate space travel than men should we change that assumption? If a six month voyage has detrimental effects on the vision of 50% of men, but not the women, perhaps crews for longer-duration voyages should be female?

Of course, this poses significant problems if there is any intention of making an actual, self-sustaining colony. We still need the men. If a test could be determined to find out which men would be most adversely effected crews/colonists could be chosen who would suffer minimally from this effect.

I agree more data is needed, but that will only be obtained by extended stays in space - something that is becoming less and less fashionable between the "machines do it better" crowd and those who simply wish to discontinue space travel altogether. Likewise, waiting to go someplace like Mars until we have vastly faster propulsion likely will never happen, simply because if we never go anywhere we will never develop those more advanced propulsion systems.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Sarevok »

If a practical Mars is sent 90% of everything that has ever been speculated or written will become moot.

It's a question of building a big ship with big engine. Not exactly arcane magic that requires studying humane genome or camping out in nowhere,Canada pretending "simulated Mars mission" has any relevance.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Darth Wong »

The "just send machines" argument makes logical sense. It's not like a political bandwagon, which people jump onto as a matter of fashion.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Sarevok »

Darth Wong wrote:The "just send machines" argument makes logical sense. It's not like a political bandwagon, which people jump onto as a matter of fashion.
I am not sure if even robotic exploration of Mars may continue given spiraling costs and the economy. MSL which is the latest rover mission is supposed to cost $ 2.5 billion.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21222
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Was this ever observed with the Mir cosmonauts who spent, like, eons on their station?
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Darth Wong »

Sarevok wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The "just send machines" argument makes logical sense. It's not like a political bandwagon, which people jump onto as a matter of fashion.
I am not sure if even robotic exploration of Mars may continue given spiraling costs and the economy. MSL which is the latest rover mission is supposed to cost $ 2.5 billion.
On the other hand, the Pentagon can misplace $17 billion with absolutely no idea where it went, and nobody even cares.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Uraniun235
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13772
Joined: 2002-09-12 12:47am
Location: OREGON
Contact:

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Uraniun235 »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Was this ever observed with the Mir cosmonauts who spent, like, eons on their station?
Yeah, I thought it was odd that the article said the only data was from the six-month ISS tours. If I remember right, the Russians had a couple of cosmonauts who did something like two years in space. That's not a great sample size, admittedly, but I know they had other guys who did long-term stints in orbit.

Also, I'm having trouble parsing this:
In the past few years, about half of the astronauts aboard the international space station have developed an increasing pressure inside their heads, an intracranial pressure that reshapes their optic nerve, causing a significant shift in the eyesight of male astronauts. Doctors call it papilledema.

Female space travelers have not been affected.
Have half of all the ISS crews been women, or are there male astronauts who haven't been affected at all by this?
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
Image
What is Project Zohar?
"On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it." - RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Sarevok »

What a timing. NASA had just announced cutting unmanned exploration missions to Mars because of cost reasons.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
someone_else
Jedi Knight
Posts: 854
Joined: 2010-02-24 05:32am

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by someone_else »

women's bodies handle fluid flow/pressure changes better than the men do.
The only thing I know about this is that women tend to have worse circulation and worse extracellular liquid drainage.

The main cause of cellulitis, varicose veins, colder appendages that they like to put on their (hotter) husband when in the bed, and related stuff that is significantly more common in women.
If a six month voyage has detrimental effects on the vision of 50% of men, but not the women, perhaps crews for longer-duration voyages should be female?
By the times we finally find the will to send long-duration voyages, I bet automation will be so good that humans will be only living cargo. Even now you can automate everything.
I agree more data is needed, but that will only be obtained by extended stays in space - something that is becoming less and less fashionable between the "machines do it better" crowd and those who simply wish to discontinue space travel altogether
Meh, if space endeavours become machine-only or the US stops giving a fuck about space, this data becomes irrelevant.

It's the sad catch 22 that is killing the space station and manned things in general. We must send humans in space only to see how humans react in space. For the rest there is mastercard automation.
Likewise, waiting to go someplace like Mars until we have vastly faster propulsion likely will never happen, simply because if we never go anywhere we will never develop those more advanced propulsion systems.
I really hope china's space efforts trigger again the pissing-contest-against-Reds mentality in those poo-throwing chimps you have in Congress.
That's the only hope for something getting done. :cry:
I'm nobody. Nobody at all. But the secrets of the universe don't mind. They reveal themselves to nobodies who care.
--
Stereotypical spacecraft are pressurized.
Less realistic spacecraft are pressurized to hold breathing atmosphere.
Realistic spacecraft are pressurized because they are flying propellant tanks. -Isaac Kuo

--
Good art has function as well as form. I hesitate to spend more than $50 on decorations of any kind unless they can be used to pummel an intruder into submission. -Sriad
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Broomstick »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Was this ever observed with the Mir cosmonauts who spent, like, eons on their station?
I suspect that obtaining medical data from cosmonauts may not be particularly easy, even these days.

The US also has astronauts that served extended tours on Mir. It does seem odd the article did not mention them. Is that because they weren't used in the study, or that the reporter didn't mention that?
Uraniun235 wrote:
In the past few years, about half of the astronauts aboard the international space station have developed an increasing pressure inside their heads, an intracranial pressure that reshapes their optic nerve, causing a significant shift in the eyesight of male astronauts. Doctors call it papilledema.

Female space travelers have not been affected.
Have half of all the ISS crews been women, or are there male astronauts who haven't been affected at all by this?
Given the proportion of men to women in the US space program, all the women together are less than half the total. So none of the women affected + some unaffected men could add up to half. But yes, it's awkwardly worded.
someone_else wrote:
women's bodies handle fluid flow/pressure changes better than the men do.
The only thing I know about this is that women tend to have worse circulation and worse extracellular liquid drainage.

The main cause of cellulitis, varicose veins, colder appendages that they like to put on their (hotter) husband when in the bed, and related stuff that is significantly more common in women.
The risk factor for those sorts of things is more actual pregnancy and childbirth, not simply being female. Women who never have children are at much lower risk for conditions like varicose veins due the hormonally induced changes in connective tissue that arise during pregnancy. The colder appendages is due at least in part to women on average having a lower body temperature than men to begin with.

The fact that pregnancy can and in many cases does result in long-term effects that can be described as damage is not incompatible with women's bodies being able to cope with certain types of circulatory changes slightly better than men. Presumably, a man who actually managed to somehow become pregnant would suffer even more from those effects than women do.
someone_else wrote:By the times we finally find the will to send long-duration voyages, I bet automation will be so good that humans will be only living cargo. Even now you can automate everything.
Even if humans are only “living cargo” you'd still want that cargo to arrive intact, wouldn't you?
someone_else wrote:
I agree more data is needed, but that will only be obtained by extended stays in space - something that is becoming less and less fashionable between the "machines do it better" crowd and those who simply wish to discontinue space travel altogether
Meh, if space endeavours become machine-only or the US stops giving a fuck about space, this data becomes irrelevant.
Some of us would like to go into space because... well, we'd like to go someplace other than Earth. It's not about efficiency, it's about wanting to go there ourselves.

After all, why should anyone travel internationally? They should just stay home and have images of other places sent to the TV's, right? They don't actually need to go there. It's so much more efficient to send a camera to Paris rather than have 10,000 tourists travel from New York to Paris in the flesh, right?
I really hope china's space efforts trigger again the pissing-contest-against-Reds mentality in those poo-throwing chimps you have in Congress.
That's the only hope for something getting done. :cry:
What, other countries can't choose to fund manned space travel? Doesn't the whole of Europe have a space agency? Space exploration shouldn't depend just on the US. Or just on the Russians or just on China. If the US goes down the shitter why should that stop everyone else from leaving the planet?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Sarevok »

Other countries have no real intention of even landing a human on the moon, much less Mars. Occasional space probes here and there seem to satisfy both their national pride and scientific curiosities in terms of missions beyond LEO.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Broomstick »

True.

You know, it may wind up that humanity collectively "votes" not to go into space. Too expensive, too many other interests, whatever.

I know space tourism has been derided at times on this forum, but really, isn't that they ONLY real reason to send people up there? In which case, it will take someone in the private sector finding a way to profit off rich dreamers to get it going.

Well, tourism and some hypothetical resource that is so stinking valuable and yet for some reason can't be extracted by machinery it's worth the time, effort, and energy to send people up there. Can't think of anything like that off-hand, though.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
hongi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1952
Joined: 2006-10-15 02:14am
Location: Sydney

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by hongi »

Broomstick wrote: Of course, this poses significant problems if there is any intention of making an actual, self-sustaining colony. We still need the men.
Frozen sperm?
User avatar
someone_else
Jedi Knight
Posts: 854
Joined: 2010-02-24 05:32am

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by someone_else »

Even if humans are only “living cargo” you'd still want that cargo to arrive intact, wouldn't you?
Bring a laser for eye correction when you arrive.
Some of us would like to go into space because... well, we'd like to go someplace other than Earth. It's not about efficiency, it's about wanting to go there ourselves.
Mh, and live in a bunker on the Moon/Mars/Jupiter moons. Big fucking deal.

Seeing from above the idiots on Earth perishing in their own toxic shit has its charm, though. :twisted:
After all, why should anyone travel internationally?
You should have asked "why should anyone want to travel to south pole".
It's a place you must bring EVERY FUCKING THING with you, the environment tries to kill you on every occasion, and on average there is no real thing to do.
If the US goes down the shitter why should that stop everyone else from leaving the planet?
Only the US had the ego to actually fork the money in the past (USSR =! Russia). ESA is a joke no less than Europe is. Others (other than China) plain don't have the cash.
I'm nobody. Nobody at all. But the secrets of the universe don't mind. They reveal themselves to nobodies who care.
--
Stereotypical spacecraft are pressurized.
Less realistic spacecraft are pressurized to hold breathing atmosphere.
Realistic spacecraft are pressurized because they are flying propellant tanks. -Isaac Kuo

--
Good art has function as well as form. I hesitate to spend more than $50 on decorations of any kind unless they can be used to pummel an intruder into submission. -Sriad
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by madd0ct0r »

"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Molyneux
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7186
Joined: 2005-03-04 08:47am
Location: Long Island

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Molyneux »

Broomstick wrote:True.

You know, it may wind up that humanity collectively "votes" not to go into space. Too expensive, too many other interests, whatever.
...and if we do, then we're dead, in the relatively near future. All of us. The species cannot survive indefinitely on one planet.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by PeZook »

If development of space takes off at all, then with the current political climate it WILL be driven by space tourism.

If space tourism grows enough, people will start looking into exploiting in-situ resources to support its facilities (because gravity well launch costs etc etc etc). Doing this will require housing people in space, meaning they will need their own facilities that will also have to be supported etc.

Presto, space economy.

Of course, the governments of the world could accelerate this by eating the costs to pre-build some infrastructure that could then be used by private companies.

This is all assuming space tourism is the ONLY viable space industry ; That's not so sure anymore, especially with several companies testing ultra low-cost space station modules and the like.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Broomstick »

someone_else wrote:
Even if humans are only “living cargo” you'd still want that cargo to arrive intact, wouldn't you?
Bring a laser for eye correction when you arrive.
Please re-read the article. There are changes in the optic nerve of the affected men, I'm not sure that laser correction will really correct the problem, or not all of the problems.
Some of us would like to go into space because... well, we'd like to go someplace other than Earth. It's not about efficiency, it's about wanting to go there ourselves.
Mh, and live in a bunker on the Moon/Mars/Jupiter moons. Big fucking deal.
Hey, I think people who want to climb Mt. Everest are nuts, too, but I definitely defend their right to do so (or rather, the right of the Nepalese and Chinese to regulate such activity in their respective territories).

If someone wants to move to Mars and live in a bunker, and is able to pay for it, what does it matter to you?
After all, why should anyone travel internationally?
You should have asked "why should anyone want to travel to south pole".
It's a place you must bring EVERY FUCKING THING with you, the environment tries to kill you on every occasion, and on average there is no real thing to do.
As noted - there is already an Antarctic tourism industry. What can I say? Some people like austere landscapes.

Also - at the south pole you don't have to bring the air with you. Or the gravity.
If the US goes down the shitter why should that stop everyone else from leaving the planet?
Only the US had the ego to actually fork the money in the past (USSR =! Russia). ESA is a joke no less than Europe is. Others (other than China) plain don't have the cash.
Er... the USSR actually beat the US into space. Plenty of ego and cash (at least for that activity) in the old USSR. Right now, the former soviets are the only ones with manned launch capability. I'm not sure where you get the idea that only the US could do this, or can do this, or will be able to do this in the future.

Sure, we were first on the Moon - but the US chose not to continue. A number of other nations COULD do the same if that was desired. It's a matter of priorities, nothing more. Yes, it would have to be a large, wealthy, first world country (the way China is going, I'm considering them "first world"), and it would have to be a major priority, but please, discard the notion that this is somehow only possible with the US.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Broomstick »

Molyneux wrote:The species cannot survive indefinitely on one planet.
The species can't survive indefinitely regardless - mammalian species generally get 3-4 million years, and primate species even less. If we do manage to survive a million years I fully expect we won't be the same species any longer.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Sky Captain
Jedi Master
Posts: 1267
Joined: 2008-11-14 12:47pm
Location: Latvia

Re: Perhaps We Should Send *Women* to Mars and Not Men...?

Post by Sky Captain »

IMHO any long duration space mission will need artificial gravity so most of the issues asociated with living in zero G will go away. There is no point of sending astronauts to Mars if after 6 month trip they are so weak that they can't even walk with heavy space suit. If any country were serious about actualy going somewhere then there already would be small space station with artificial gravity. Something like Bigelow module with spent rocket stage as a counterweight wouldn't even cost that much and would provide estremely valuable data about living in centrifugal gravity, a data that currently don't exist at all.
Post Reply