Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

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Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

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Our dear old christian communties in the UK dont often get the chance to screech loudly or noticeably, but today they've deployed the big guns. Uh, well...the bishop of Exeter anyway....

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A Devon town council acted unlawfully by allowing prayers to be said before meetings, the High Court has ruled.

Action was brought against Bideford Town Council by the National Secular Society (NSS) after atheist councillor Clive Bone complained.

Mr Justice Ouseley ruled the prayers were not lawful under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972.

However, he said prayers could be said as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend.

The judgement was being seen as a test case which could affect local councils across England and Wales.

Mr Justice Ouseley ruled the prayers as practised by Bideford Town Council had been unlawful because there was no statutory power permitting them to continue.

The NSS, which said prayers had no place in "a secular environment concerned with civic business", argued the "inappropriate" ritual breached articles 9 and 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protect an individual's right to freedom of conscience and not to face discrimination.
'Bizarre ruling'

However, the case was not won on human rights grounds but on a point of statutory construction of local government legislation.

Mr Justice Ouseley said: "A local authority has no power under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972, or otherwise, to hold prayers as part of a formal local authority meeting, or to summon councillors to such a meeting at which prayers are on the agenda."
He told the court: "There is no specific power to say prayers or to have any period of quiet reflection as part of the business of the council."

Referring to Bideford, he said: "The council has on two occasions by a majority voted to retain public prayers at its full meetings.

"But that does not give it power to do what it has no power to do."
The judge acknowledged the case raised issues of general public importance and gave the council permission to appeal.

Speaking after Friday's outcome, Eric Pickles, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, said the ruling was "surprising and disappointing".
He said: "Public authorities - be it Parliament or a parish council - should have the right to say prayers before meetings if they wish."

Anthony Inch, a Bideford town councillor and Torridge district councillor, said he hoped there would be an appeal leading to the ruling being overturned.
"I'm disgusted, surprised and saddened by the decision," he said.

Simon Calvert, of the Christian Institute, said: "We are pleased that the court has said the saying of prayers at meetings does not breach human rights laws.

"But it is bizarre that they should be declared unlawful because of the 1972 Local Government Act."
He added: "The judge's finding that the Local Government Act doesn't give local authorities power to include prayers as part of their formal meetings - we think that's extraordinary.

"I mean we're talking about a practice that goes back to the Elizabethan era.
"And the logic of the judge's ruling may be that it could also be unlawful for a council to start its meeting with the beginning of the national anthem. It may even throw local authorities' Diamond Jubilee celebrations up in the air."

Keith Porteous Wood, executive director of the National Secular Society said: "This judgment is an important victory for everyone who wants a secular society, one that neither advantages nor disadvantages people because of their religion or lack of it."
He added: "Acts of worship in council meetings are key to the separation of religion from politics, so we're very pleased with the judgment, and the clear secular message it sends - particularly the statement made about the 1972 Act."

'Great pity'
The Bishop of Exeter, the Right Reverend Michael Langrish, said he would encourage councils in his area to continue holding prayers before the start of their statutory business.
He added: "I think it's a great pity that a tiny minority are seeking to ban the majority, many of whom find prayers very, very helpful, from continuing with a process in which no-one actually has to participate."

The legal challenge was launched in 2010 after the NSS was contacted by Mr Bone, who was a Bideford town councillor at the time.

Mr Bone, who ended up leaving the council because of its "refusal to adjust" its prayers policy, said on Friday: "Quite frankly delighted. I'm not surprised, I expected to win.

"The law is the law and local authorities have to obey the law."
He added: "Local government is for everybody, it should be equally welcoming to everybody, whatever they believe.

"This has got nothing to do with intolerance towards religion.
"Religious freedom is an absolute right and so is freedom from religion an absolute right, in my view."

C4 news just had Eric Pickles on, who put his head in the sand when it was pointed out that hardly anyone actually bothers to go to church to pray anymore.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by Zaune »

Not sure I'm really on Cllr. Bone's side here. Yes, the short pre-meeting prayer might technically be bending the rules, but where's the actual harm in it? It's not as though the council have been accused of letting their personal interpretation of the Bible stand in the way of discharging their statutory obligations to their constituents. And lawyering up because he lost a vote on the issue -or so I infer- strikes me as unseemly at best.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

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Why doesn't the perception of government endorsement of one religion over all others count as "harm"?
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by evilsoup »

Well our head of state is also the head of the Church of England, there are bishops serving in the upper house of our legislature, and parliament has scheduled CoE services at the beginning of the day (MPs that aren't Christians simply don't turn up). So if the state favouring one religion counts as harm then this is a pretty small problem. Also
However, he [the judge] said prayers could be said as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend.
They can have their prayers, so long as they don't make it a mandatory part of the schedule. I wonder if they could just phrase it as 'there will be prayers before the meeting' and still put it up on the newsletter.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by Zaune »

Darth Wong wrote:Why doesn't the perception of government endorsement of one religion over all others count as "harm"?
If it's anything like the prayer service my yeargroup had to sit through before a meeting of Northants Borough Council ten years ago, the wording is likely to be sufficiently generic that Jewish or Muslim councillors are unlikely to find anything objectionable in it, at least.

Besides, county councils in the UK have so little actual power that they can endorse the Secret and Hermetic Order of the Golden Sprout for all I care.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by Serafina »

Right, because there totally aren't any atheists :roll:
If it is so generic that atheists can identify with it, then it isn't a prayer.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by AniThyng »

Serafina wrote:Right, because there totally aren't any atheists :roll:
If it is so generic that atheists can identify with it, then it isn't a prayer.
So deal? You and I know its bullshit either way so just tune it out for a while and get on with business. Let the muslims/jews/christians bicker over who's favoured over who and take the high road.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by Metatwaddle »

Sure, only "getting on with business" would happen more efficiently without a time-wasting prayer at the beginning of the meeting.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by AniThyng »

Metatwaddle wrote:Sure, only "getting on with business" would happen more efficiently without a time-wasting prayer at the beginning of the meeting.
Well yeah, no doubt it would, and time is a precious thing to waste, but we're talking a prayer that lasts a few minutes and not a full blown sermon, yes?
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by SCRawl »

Assuming the council session was to begin at a firm time, then the prayers could happen any time prior to this, assuming the room wasn't in use by someone else. Then they don't waste the time of anyone else, and whoever calls the meetings to order makes sure that this happens at 7pm sharp (or whatever).

It wouldn't shock me if this is just a way of trying to sneak in a new tradition of "official" prayer, though, and certainly that's worth fighting against.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by evilsoup »

From everything I've heard, these prayers have been going on for a long time, so no it wasn't a matter of trying to sneak in anything new. Prayer is actually pretty common in public stuff, the state-run primary school that I went to had them every morning (though I'm sure this is less common in more multicultural areas).
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

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If public prayer is such a minor issue, then I'm sure the religious people would not be too upset over losing it. If they do, then that puts the lie to the idea that it's a minor issue.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

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What you have to remember about Britain is that we have do not have a separation of Church and State. The Church is allowed to appoint its bishops to the upper house of our government, our head of state is the head of the official church. Now of course this is wrong and I'm disgraced of it but, praying before a meeting is minor in the grand scale of things.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by AniThyng »

So in principle it's not about not offending people of other faiths who may actually appreciate a general prayer but about not offending atheists in particular who obviously don't need prayer? I'm asking this because statement that the prayer was rather generic was countered by "but what about atheists!"
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by Darth Wong »

No, it's more like the "if there's smoke, then there's fire" axiom. The kind of people who think it's really important to keep that prayer in place are not the kind of people who will behave reasonably if a policy issue comes up which happens to clash with their religious beliefs.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by AniThyng »

Fair enough. Can't argue with that.

As I stated earlier I believe we can afford to just let people pray if they want and that picking fights over it is silly, so opposing public prayer is an unreasonable fight in the opposite direction in my view, but yeah, I'm not a public servant or anything. Actually thinking on this, is hard to argue that the statement that if they want to pray they can do so before the meeting in an unofficial capacity is best compromise.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by Hillary »

AniThyng wrote:Fair enough. Can't argue with that.

As I stated earlier I believe we can afford to just let people pray if they want and that picking fights over it is silly, so opposing public prayer is an unreasonable fight in the opposite direction in my view, but yeah, I'm not a public servant or anything. Actually thinking on this, is hard to argue that the statement that if they want to pray they can do so before the meeting in an unofficial capacity is best compromise.
Indeed. Except, of course, they aren't happy with that. They believe they should be able to enforce their little prayer service on everyone else.

I would be most interested in the reactions of people if a council with a majority Muslim presence decided that they should hold an official prayer service to Allah before a meeting.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by bilateralrope »

AniThyng wrote:Fair enough. Can't argue with that.

As I stated earlier I believe we can afford to just let people pray if they want and that picking fights over it is silly, so opposing public prayer is an unreasonable fight in the opposite direction in my view, but yeah, I'm not a public servant or anything. Actually thinking on this, is hard to argue that the statement that if they want to pray they can do so before the meeting in an unofficial capacity is best compromise.
I don't see this court ruling as opposing public prayer. I see it as preventing the council having any leverage to force councilors to attend when they don't want to. Note this line:
However, he said prayers could be said as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend.
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by Zed »

Hillary wrote:
AniThyng wrote:Fair enough. Can't argue with that.

As I stated earlier I believe we can afford to just let people pray if they want and that picking fights over it is silly, so opposing public prayer is an unreasonable fight in the opposite direction in my view, but yeah, I'm not a public servant or anything. Actually thinking on this, is hard to argue that the statement that if they want to pray they can do so before the meeting in an unofficial capacity is best compromise.
Indeed. Except, of course, they aren't happy with that. They believe they should be able to enforce their little prayer service on everyone else.
No they don't:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/ ... NETTXT3487
"The Christian Institute said: "The practice of saying prayers at Bideford town council meetings is understood to date back to the days of Queen Elizabeth I."

"The council has recently twice voted in support of continuing with the prayers. Individual councillors were free to not take part in the prayers if they wished, and the register of attendance was not taken until after the prayers had finished."

"Nevertheless, a court case was brought by the National Secular Society and a secularist former councillor, Mr Clive Bone, against Bideford town council."
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by evilsoup »

Darth Wong, exactly what powers do you think town coucils have in the UK?
directgov wrote:They're responsible for services like allotments, public toilets, parks and ponds, war memorials, and local halls and community centres. They are sometimes described as the third tier of local government.
What grand policy decisions do you think these people could actually effect? At worst, I guess, they could try and stop (say) some yoga types from using the town hall. But given what I know of the typical town councillor, I really don't think they would even try that.

If we were talking about a county or city council, then fundamentalists could do some damage...

However, I don't think it takes a rabid fundamentalist to defend what is actually such a minor thing, purely on the grounds of tradition. The prayer doesn't really hurt anyone, apart from really overzealous atheists. That said, I think the judge reached the right decision here.

Hm. A thought just occurred to me. Might this affect planned diamond jubilee celebrations?
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

Post by AniThyng »

Hillary wrote:
AniThyng wrote:Fair enough. Can't argue with that.

As I stated earlier I believe we can afford to just let people pray if they want and that picking fights over it is silly, so opposing public prayer is an unreasonable fight in the opposite direction in my view, but yeah, I'm not a public servant or anything. Actually thinking on this, is hard to argue that the statement that if they want to pray they can do so before the meeting in an unofficial capacity is best compromise.
Indeed. Except, of course, they aren't happy with that. They believe they should be able to enforce their little prayer service on everyone else.

I would be most interested in the reactions of people if a council with a majority Muslim presence decided that they should hold an official prayer service to Allah before a meeting.
If my readings of certain right-wing-fantasy sites are accurate, they'd screech double standards because in their minds it would be allowed by soft-headed liberals who put "multiculturalism" and therefore Islam above Christianity ;)
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Re: Court rules town councils pre-session prayers unlawful

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Dr Roberts wrote:What you have to remember about Britain is that we have do not have a separation of Church and State. The Church is allowed to appoint its bishops to the upper house of our government, our head of state is the head of the official church. Now of course this is wrong and I'm disgraced of it but, praying before a meeting is minor in the grand scale of things.
Well, there's a lot to be said for a one stop shop 'official' religious body for the press to go to. It cuts down on the air time lunatics get. It also needs to keep up with the rest of society, because if it doesn't, it'll be disestablished. It's not exactly a coincidence that the CoE is so liberal that people joke about them being an atheist club. Britain has plenty of fundies, they just get no time in the press and minuscule public exposure, because any time somebody wants to know something about religion, they go to the CoE. Which is as limp as an overcooked noodle. I'd say that that is an acceptable evil considering the current social situation.

And these aren't fundies we're talking about in the OP. These are the sort of nebulously religious people who become teachers and say the Lord's Prayer in assembly at their school, but otherwise never mention God unless they're teaching an RE class.
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