Gunhead's Flag Discussion With Flagg

[Thanas]

The Continuation war was not one of our proudest moments and it turned into a war of aggression when we crossed the old border eastward,

I think it turned into a war of aggression the moment the Finnish-German agreement regarding Barbarossa was signed.

but Finland did not take part in the siege of Leningrad. We did not do anything to relieve it either, but seeing as how we were at war with the Soviets, it was neither expected nor required of us.

Well, other than contributing to the siege simply by being there, I would agree.

Finland was caught rather badly between a rock and hard place for the duration of WW2 and the only real help of any significance we got was from Nazi Germany once they fell out with the Soviet Union.

Also true.

[K. A. Pital]

Well, in my view doing nothing to relieve the deliberate total annihilation of the population of an entire multimillion city doesn't reflect too well. However, this has little if anything to do with the swastika, although I could understand how people can say that even an unwitting Nazi satellite keeping the swastika after the war is not really cool.

Still, considering that Finland acted in good faith towards most nations after the war, I don't think one should castigate them for clinging to the swastika for whatever reasons. That is a minor issue, unlike Japanese honouring war criminals and playing the victim card in World War II.

[Edi]

Stas, regarding the siege of Leningrad, Germany actually asked Finland to help close the encirclement ring, which we could fairly easily have done. Mannerheim refused, but had he not, things would have ended very differently than they did. They would also have ended very differently (for the worse) for us later on, the possibility of which must have been on the minds of the Finnish High Command, since they could not know how long things would last.

One of the things (though by no means the only one) which prompted Stalin's aggression toward us in the first place was the proximity of the Finnish border to Leningrad and the supposed security concerns that raised.

In any case, the reason why the swastika has been retained in some of the formation flags and similar places is its history here. It has been used since at least the bronze age here and has roots going pretty far back. It was adopted as the Finnish Air Force symbol when we got planes after WW1 and that swastika was blue. It was removed as the overall symbol after WW2, but retained in some of those flags and such to honor the history of the Finnish Air Force and its origins.

You may be interested to know that the Air Force Training School at Kauhava, which has the swastika most prominently in its flag, is being disbanded as a military unit and facility due to cost cutting measures. So that particular flag is also going to be retired from service along with it. The cuts were announced earlier this week.

[Spoonist]

Finland was caught rather badly between a rock and hard place for the duration of WW2 and the only real help of any significance we got was from Nazi Germany once they fell out with the Soviet Union.

I'd disagree in principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_su ... Winter_War

[Sea Skimmer]

Aye Sweden in particular supplied a very large amount of armament for its size, and without that Finland would have collapsed considerably more quickly. They also supplied fuel and food besides weapons. The Germans meanwhile spent the winter war attempting to convince Finland to surrender to the Soviets by various diplomatic means and withholding aid, and only moved in to be 'friends' once that was completely settled. Never mind that Stalin invaded Finland in the first place in no small part because of his hands being suddenly freed by the non aggression pact with Germany.

[Spoonist]

Darn it I fucked up the quote above, it was Edi's with Thanas agreeing.

Aye Sweden in particular supplied a very large amount of armament for its size, and without that Finland would have collapsed considerably more quickly. They also supplied fuel and food besides weapons.

1/3 of all swedish small arms was shipped to Finland.
Also 1/3 of the air force.


Edi's comment is unfortunately a common view in Finland where they expected more...
Then to claim Germany helped when they abused the fins from '39 onwards is a sad testiment to real-politiks.

[Tiriol]

Darn it I fucked up the quote above, it was Edi's with Thanas agreeing.

Aye Sweden in particular supplied a very large amount of armament for its size, and without that Finland would have collapsed considerably more quickly. They also supplied fuel and food besides weapons.

1/3 of all swedish small arms was shipped to Finland.
Also 1/3 of the air force.


Edi's comment is unfortunately a common view in Finland where they expected more...

Sweden's contribution during the Winter War is well-documented and as far as I remember also taught in schools as well. I think that Edi was referring to the Continuation War and the interim peace between the Winter Wat and the Continuation War when Stalin's Soviet Union kept pressure on Finland - and quite frankly at that time only Germany could give some actual support (meaning that we had a true fighting chance) now when the Allies were in less than stellar situation with France being gone and all that.

Then to claim Germany helped when they abused the fins from '39 onwards is a sad testiment to real-politiks.

Everyone knows that Germany witheld its aid to Finland during the Winter War and had made secret pact with the Soviet Union about the eventual fate of Finland. However, without Germans Finland would probably not have survived as an independent state during the Continuation War or in the interim peace when the political pressure on Finland was ever-present. That war is not Finland's proudest moment by any chance, but I'm not sure how we could have avoided a war (certainly we could have avoided a war of conquest by simply not getting past our old borders) with either the Soviet Union or Germany during that time. And thanks to the Winter War, Soviet Union as an ally was not an option anyone in their right mind would have taken.

[Spoonist]

Tririol, I agree that Edi's comment probably is out of context and I think that as soon as he shows up he'll explain that that is what he meant. But since he said "for the duration of WW2" with Thanas agreeing I thought it had to be pointed out.
What I meant with the "common view" is that its becoming more and more common when talking to finns, especially young finns, that the foreign help (including Sweden's) during the winter war was too little too late. Its extremely rare that I talk to a finn that have a positive spin on the aid given, instead its almost always said with a complaint straight after. I've only met/talked to one finn who was appreciative of the aid given and that was some 20 years ago from a vet. So a comment like Edi's "of any significance" is the norm.

Then to claim Germany helped when they abused the fins from '39 onwards is a sad testiment to real-politiks.

Everyone knows that Germany witheld its aid to Finland during the Winter War and had made secret pact with the Soviet Union about the eventual fate of Finland.

Agreed, although I wouldn't go so far as everyone since I've talked to finns with a different view. Views that they changed after refered to the facts, but still.

However, without Germans Finland would probably not have survived as an independent state during the Continuation War or in the interim peace when the political pressure on Finland was ever-present.

Disagree. Only if there would be no war between germany and soviet in 41 would Finland's fate be as certain as that. I'd agree if you meant that was how it was percieved at the time.
But I'd speculate that the soviets/stalin didn't want another finnish war before consolidation elsewhere. Especially since such plans were rejected twice before august IIRC.
If we look at the historical outcome, at the start of Barbarossa Finland and the soviets declared non-aggression vs each other. Its not until the 25th that USSR launched its air offensive which dragged Finland into the war.
So to go into pure speculation, if Finland had managed to stay out of German sphere of influence, it is very possible that they could have avoided a continuation war altogether and instead relied on diplomacy.
But as I said above, due to the FoW, then of course the finns at the time needed to court germany so in reality they had no choice. But that was because germany made it so, not vice versa.

That war is not Finland's proudest moment by any chance, but I'm not sure how we could have avoided a war (certainly we could have avoided a war of conquest by simply not getting past our old borders) with either the Soviet Union or Germany during that time. And thanks to the Winter War, Soviet Union as an ally was not an option anyone in their right mind would have taken.

Hence the real-politik comment. But that doesn't make "germany was the only to give signicant aid" true outside of real-politiks. Agreements were set up in march/april of 40 with the brits and seperately with sweden+norway+denmark. These were directly prevented by the germans through the invasion of Denmark+Norway. Same thing after the collapse of France. Top that off with Hitler trying to force finnish participation in Barbarossa to the point of flying over finnish airspace to bomb soviet targets. So germany played the finns to their own benifit throughout the whole conflict. Any aid given was always to the detriment of Finland. But again, as seen from the ground at the time, Finland at the time had little choice in the matter than to dance along.
Me, I don't think that Finnish participation in the continuation war was as bad as some make it out. It's not like Finland had any choice in the matter as soon as Barbarossa started playing out. Then for being on the axis side the number of atrocities where at a minimum when compared to the rest of the participants, including most allies. The Finns stood up to german command on several occasions and refused a number of orders outright. Never did the finns adopt nazi policies or even start moving in such a direction. So it could have been much much worse.

[Edi]

Yes, my mistake on the role of Sweden. I was thinking more in terms of 1941 onward, about the Continuation War and toward the end stages of WW2, rather than Winter War.