Borg Tactics to take over the Alpha Quadrant

[Darth Fanboy]

Oh, and I will go on record I like the idea Stofsk reposted about "harvesting" humanity better than what I just posted. But I have a few related questions.

If harvesting the knowledge of humanity was the overall goal, then what is the explanation for the invasion in First Contact? The thing I can think that fits somewhat but not that well is that the Borg "harvested" time travel at some point and felt that the time was right. But why do so at the time of first contact?

-No Federation, and none of the AQ/BQ factions are as powerful as they are in the 24th century. The Borg in the past an then use the Earth as a base of operations as a weakened-by-war humanity is easier pickings. (They obviously were able to accomplish this since the E-E scanned Earth after the sphere went through and the population was entirely Borg.) By preventing first contact, the Borg can start the assimilation of Earth without Vulcan interference, as they don't stop long enough and try to get involved to realize what is going on.

-The species such as humanity aren't as developed technologically, but at that point they might be developed enough for assimilation purposes. Cochrane was obviously smart enough to develop warp travel, although I don't think that is a particularly strong argument since even in the 24th century there are plenty of people that can't build a warp drive.

-There was a conduit to Earth, which was why the Borg Sphere had to start at Earth and not some other more remote part of Federation space. Otherwise why else make the time travel jump so close to Earth thus risking the operation?

This begs the further question, the Borg have the capability for time travel, but is there an in-universe reason they would not continue to make attempts to use time travel to improve their position (other than, Q doesn't let them for whatever reason?)

[Stofsk]

If I were to guess, the theory accounts for FC by claiming that the borg used time travel to try and spur the Federation to develop technology along in that avenue. The problem there though, is it is contradicted by the character of the Queen, who manifestly desires the conquest of earth.

There's no real way of looking at it other than the writers of FC simply fucked up. They picked the wrong sort of story to tell, they picked the wrong villains to use, they retconned too much of what had been established before, and the end result is a passably entertaining action movie that fails if you think about it too much. You might be able to argue that the borg queen was lying or not being genuine with her stated motives or what not, but I am not sure how well that holds up to scrutiny (at the climactic moment of the movie, she boasts to Picard 'watch, as your futures are destroyed!' And she acts with outright surprise when Data betrays her; on the other hand, if I were purposefully manipulating people to do the sort of things I want them to do, I would put on a good show about it too; and we know she comes back later in Voyager and so must have had some kind of contingency plan in effect, so I guess she didn't feel all that threatened by Data's actions). Even this theory that the borg are harvesting humanity is not perfect, but when the question is 'lol why didn't they send more than one cube' well the only other answer is 'because they're stupid' or something else that's not knowable.

[Darth Tedious]

And she acts with outright surprise when Data betrays her; on the other hand, if I were purposefully manipulating people to do the sort of things I want them to do, I would put on a good show about it too; and we know she comes back later in Voyager and so must have had some kind of contingency plan in effect, so I guess she didn't feel all that threatened by Data's actions.

It always seemed odd that she came back in Voyager ("dead? hmmph! I've had worse!") when we pretty clearly saw her die.

Thinking about it just now, Baffalo's theory reconciles this beautifully: the Queen we see die is from the original timeline, and the one we see in Voyager is from the 'altered' timeline.

It even makes sense of her comment about her death to Janeway- something about Janeway thinking too three-dimensionally or some such.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The alternative is that her personality, for want of a better term for a Borg, was part of the Collective and was downloaded into a suitable new drone. Wasn't the Queen played by two different actresses in Voyager anyway? Susanna Thompson and Alice Krige(sp?)? That would explain things.

Think of it like Cylon Resurrection.

[RedImperator]

Or the "queen" could be an avatar, or a program with multiple instances, or there's more than one of them and they all share memories and experiences through the Collective, or her personality is actually stored in the Collective somewhere and the various "queens" are all just "thin clients" running the program simultaneously.

Actually, did the Voyager queen (queens?) ever talk or act like she/they was/were actually present for the events of First Contact?

[Eternal_Freedom]

The "Queen as a program" idea actually turned up in the Endgame follo-won books "Homecoming" and "The Farther Shore."

As for the Voyager Queens saying they were at First Contact, I've no idea, I don't recall it ever being mentioned though.

[Darth Tedious]

Actually, did the Voyager queen (queens?) ever talk or act like she/they was/were actually present for the events of First Contact?

Yes. When Janeway meets her she says "but you died.." and the Queen tells her she's thinking too three-dimensionally (or something similar).

I'll try to find a Youtube clip...

[Darth Tedious]

Wait, my bad.

The "thinking too three-dimensionally" quote was to Picard in FC, after she reveals that she was on the cube in BoBW (and died then, too).

I guess the Voyager Queen/Queens didn't need to justify having been resurrected, as it had already been covered in FC?

[Baffalo]

I think that line "Such three dimensional thinking" has forever tainted the Borg. Mostly because they came out of the Queen's mouth. Hey lady, we exist in four dimensions, even if we only have control of three of them, and the fourth has half a dozen solutions for motion at this point, so stop being a pseudo-cryptic bitch and just say something that'll at least get the fan boys riled up like "Start thinking with portals" if you can move through time so easily.

I think the Queen is perhaps something that sounded good at the time, that of a central villain character that wants Picard's special probe, that has since come back to bite everyone in the ass. The problem is that explaining away the times that she hints at, as well as what we see already, is difficult. Now, I can understand the Borg needing a central authority to give some order to the chaos, since even the most advanced AIs still sometimes fuck up and they need human input, but giving the ultimate authority to a flawed, egotistical person is stupid at best and borderline suicidal at worst.

So let's see... Earth somehow manages to garner the attention of the Queen for TNG: Best of Both Worlds. That's understandable given that Q managed to whisk the Enterprise away in the blink of an eye. So we have a species that the Borg sees as interesting and so the Queen becomes personally involved. The cube flies to Wolf 359 and engages the Federation fleet. Now, the Queen might have special abilities that we're going to explore, but the regular drones would be considered expendable. Yet we see Zero in VOY: Unimatrix who explains she was assimilated at Wolf 359. So at some point, the Borg Cube exploded, and yet didn't. The hell? How can drones assimilated at Wolf 359 be present at the Unimatrix when it was one ship only and we saw the thing explode?

We know from BoBW that the Enterprise only encountered a single cube. My theory is that there was a cube that traveled to Wolf 359 and fought the Federation. Enticed, the Borg began assimilation, taking so long the Enterprise caught up and used the lowered shields to fire the modified deflector or something. Most likely, the Cube was severely damaged and was facing a second fleet of starships, so it's time to bail. The Queen climbs on a sphere and goes back just enough to warn the cube approaching that Starfleet will be waiting for them, so proceed directly to Earth. To avoid a possible attack by the Enterprise, the sphere goes another direction while the Cube carries out its orders to only smash the fleet at Wolf 359 and proceed directly to Earth. To prevent knowledge from being obtained, the Cube there explodes while the sphere slips away.

The reason there wasn't a second sphere is because the crew of the Enterprise were desperate and trying to think outside the box, so they didn't see the sphere slip away, and because it was flying away, Starfleet intelligence had no idea bout it. So they slip away and the Queen broods about this, then decides to launch a second attack later when she makes it back to the Delta Quadrant. She knows the Federation is dangerous so she'll wipe out the problem altogether. She has back-ups but like all evil overlords, tends to think she's invincible and decides she really wants Picards probe and won't wait for it.

If we go with this theory, then there's a digital back-up of the Queen constantly, only with different possible bodies. It also allows for a multiple queen theory, that of queens brought out for special purposes. If a queen is assigned a task, she carries it out like a drone, but has the ability to think independently and make what some would consider convoluted plans. Fearing Q, which would've been somewhere in a Starfleet databank, the Borg look for ways to somehow avoid the powers of Q, since I doubt they fully understand his power or abilities.

[RedImperator]

I think that line "Such three dimensional thinking" has forever tainted the Borg. Mostly because they came out of the Queen's mouth.

Or she was, you know, fucking with Picard.

I was going to respond to the rest of your post, but to be honest, the rest of the first paragraph was just nonsense posturing and everything else was so confused I couldn't figure out the actual narrative you were trying to construct.

[Darth Fanboy]

I think he is trying to say that the Borg Queen and several other drones left the cube to head back for Borg space sometime between the end of Wolf 359 and the battle at Earth.

[Enigma]

I think he is trying to say that the Borg Queen and several other drones left the cube to head back for Borg space sometime between the end of Wolf 359 and the battle at Earth.

That is plausible given the Borg's Transwarp capability. They could've T-warped to the nearest Cube, beamed the queen over and flew back towards Earth. Or else we would've seen the Queen in BoBW.

[Terralthra]

To address the OP's question, the Borg don't use cloaking devices to penetrate the Federation because they wouldn't work.

TORETH: In order to reach Draken we will have to travel through Federation space for nearly twenty hours.
TROI: That is not a problem.
TORETH: Contrary to the propaganda your superiors would have us believe, Starfleet is neither weak nor foolish. The chances of us reaching Draken undetected are not good.
TROI: We will be cloaked.
TORETH: The cloaking device does not make us completely invulnerable. You would know that if you had spent any time in the field. The Federation has littered their borders with subspace listening posts and gravitic sensors. They may even have a tachyon detection grid in operation, in which case they will know we're there. If we are discovered within Federation territory, it could be interpreted as an act of war.

Toreth, a Romulan Captain, fully expects that even cloaked, the Federation will most likely detect them within 20 hours because of their rather extensive network of subspace listening posts, gravitic sensors, and (potentially) tachyon detection grids. If Toreth is right (and the fact that Toreth is a highly competent officer is a key point of the episode), the Borg would face similar odds of detection. Cloaking would offer little gain over the brute force approach, and probably cost a fair amount more, plus cloaking renders both weapons and shields offline, so it's more dangerous. Why bother?

[RedImperator]

I think he is trying to say that the Borg Queen and several other drones left the cube to head back for Borg space sometime between the end of Wolf 359 and the battle at Earth.

That is plausible given the Borg's Transwarp capability. They could've T-warped to the nearest Cube, beamed the queen over and flew back towards Earth. Or else we would've seen the Queen in BoBW.

Why would we have necessarily seen the queen in BOBW? She doesn't make the "resistance is futile" speech even when she is on board, and it's not like we got a comprehensive tour of the cube's interior. This idea also forces us to explain why nobody noticed that the cube--at that point only a handful of light years from Earth--suddenly vanished, only to return later.

[Enigma]

I think he is trying to say that the Borg Queen and several other drones left the cube to head back for Borg space sometime between the end of Wolf 359 and the battle at Earth.

That is plausible given the Borg's Transwarp capability. They could've T-warped to the nearest Cube, beamed the queen over and flew back towards Earth. Or else we would've seen the Queen in BoBW.

Why would we have necessarily seen the queen in BOBW? She doesn't make the "resistance is futile" speech even when she is on board, and it's not like we got a comprehensive tour of the cube's interior. This idea also forces us to explain why nobody noticed that the cube--at that point only a handful of light years from Earth--suddenly vanished, only to return later.

Every time the Queen is directly involved in a matter or another, she is shown onscreen. She does at least in one occasion directly do the resistance is futile speech because we've seen in VOY (forgot the ep but the Queen was in her throne room(?) saying those words while at the other end we hear a drone's voice).

For all we know, the resistance is futile speech used in BOBW may have at least been done by the Queen's part. That is just pure speculation. What we do know is that the Queen was onboard up to the point that Picard was assimilated. Maybe at some point after Wolf 359 instead of the Cube T-warping and then back, a sphere (which was mentioned by someone here earlier) with the Queen and some of the assimilated T-warped back to Borg Space.

[Baffalo]

I was going to respond to the rest of your post, but to be honest, the rest of the first paragraph was just nonsense posturing and everything else was so confused I couldn't figure out the actual narrative you were trying to construct.

Sorry about that I was falling asleep and wanted to make the post before I went to sleep. Sorry it got fucked so badly in the process. I think most of the ideas got through though.

[Darth Fanboy]

It would make more sense if a sphere or some other craft aboard the cube after the fighting, given the presence of the drone that says specifically they were assimilated at 359 (even though they didn't use the vampire nanoprobe assimilation bullshit they used in later series...)

[Solauren]

Do we know the range limit on Borg transporters? It's possible when the original cube was 'hacked' by data, the Queen grabbed the newest drones and was just beamed to a nearby cube.

Sure, that brings up the point why the Borg don't just do remote transporter assaults, but they've been shown to be idiots when it comes to tactical thinking, so, it's not that big an issue.

[Purple]

Well it might be that such long range transportation requires them to set up those patten enhancer things on both ends of the beam. Something that can be done with two Borg ships but not when attacking ground they don't control yet.

[RedImperator]

Do we know the range limit on Borg transporters? It's possible when the original cube was 'hacked' by data, the Queen grabbed the newest drones and was just beamed to a nearby cube.

Sure, that brings up the point why the Borg don't just do remote transporter assaults, but they've been shown to be idiots when it comes to tactical thinking, so, it's not that big an issue.

It also brings up the point that we've never seen the Borg do extreme long-range transporting...also the point that there was no other Borg cube nearby...also if there was another cube nearby, why didn't it, you know, attack Earth...also, why are you introducing an entire extra (secret!) cube and a super-transporting ability that nobody has ever mentioned and never appeared in any episode when the escape-pod sphere is known to exist? I don't really like that answer, but it's better than this one.

Be honest with yourself--you just introduced this idea so you'd have another opportunity to go "hurr hurr Borg dumb", didn't you?

[Thanas]

I've got a different theory - the borg decision-making process. What do we know of it? We know they act as a collective, and orders are given by the Queen(s?). The mere existence of the Queen suggests they needed to streamline the decision process. (Representative reasons are a bit irrelevant - the Borg can always use drones like Seven and do not trade anyway).

So what if the collective is so large that the decision making process is simply very slow and very cumbersome? The only time we have seen the Borg use large fleets is when faced with an existential threat or when a Queen commands it (and that time the fleet was used quite near their home space anyway).

It may be that most of the Borg actions are done out of inertia (assimilate onwards for one) and that the collective is way too slow to react to sudden setbacks. Conquering earth may just as well have been the pet project of just one queen, with the rest of the collective not caring much for that (especially as they may just be busy assimilating targets closer to home).

[Stofsk]

Ooh that's a nice theory.

[Jedipilot24]

I have some ideas.

First of all, I agree with the idea that the Borg 'farm' other civilizations for advanced technology and also that Hugh's return really screwed the Collective up and led to the development of things like the Vinculum that we see in Voyager; it may also have led to the creation of Unimatrix Zero. It may also explain why we never see the Borg 'nursery' again. Hugh's individuality both created the Queen and also made the Collective more aggressive in its assimilation procedures, switching their priorities from just consuming technology to consuming both technology and individiuals--a tendancy that became stronger after Wolf 359, which leads to my next theory.

The reason both for the queen's 'three-dimensional' statement to Picard in FC and also for Voyager finding ex-drones in the DQ that were assimilated at Wolf 359 is that there were actually two Battles of Wolf 359. The first one involved the Borg taking time to assimilate each ship as it attacked, which dragged things out long enough for the Klingons and the Enterprise to arrive in time and destroy the cube. But, just before the cube was destroyed, it launched a sphere that went back in time to just before the battle and warned the incoming cube to not waste time assimilating and just destroy all the ships as they attacked. This is the battle we see in the pilot of DS9.

The sphere, meanwhile, traveled back to the DQ where the 'alternate' Queen took over when the 'original' Queen died on the Cube after Data's sabotage. But the cube still managed to send some information to the Collective--which may have been why the 'alternate' Queen tried to seduce Data in FC, both because she wanted to know how he'd done it and because she wanted to neutralize him.

The transwarp conduit to Earth seen in 'Endgame' was probably created to give the Borg a way to strike at the heart of the Federation should they become too dangerous to keep around.

I should also point out that the 'Stop First Contact' objective for the Borg was their backup plan in FC; the Borg probably know better than to casually muck about with the timeline.
However, I also think that FC created an alternate timeline; Cochrane's exposure to the time traveling TNG crew combined with the wreckage of the Borg sphere led to technology advancing more swiftly in this timeline, explaining the more advanced look of technology in 'Enterprise' and the new movie, which originally followed the 'Enterprise' timeline but then diverged again after the Narada's arrival, which again spurred faster technological development.

So in case you are getting confused, here are all the various timelines:

Prime: Original TOS/TNG timeline up to Wolf 359.
Prime 1: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY up to FC.
Prime 1a: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/FC/Nemesis/Novelverse
Prime 1b: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/FC/Nemesis/STO
Enterprise Prime: FC/Enterprise
Abrams Prime: FC/Enterprise and the Abramsverse

[Lord Pounder]

I've like the theory that the Borg are fucking with the AQ just pressing enough to make them innovate new technology, with the Federation being the most creative. The Borg for all their power are not innovators, they are space locusts they consume not create.

[PREDATOR490]

I doubt the Borg are actively fucking with anyone rather than just not interested enough to really try. The Borg are hilariously slow and cumbersome which may be the combination of being top dog for a very long time + dependence on assimilation to solve their problems.

The Borg were running around the galaxy for a long time, supposedly 900 years if you go by Dragons Teeth I believe. The Borg claim to want to bring perfection to all species but if that were true the Borg should have overrun the Delta Quadrant ages ago.
The numerous planet of the week episodes would be extremely unlikely if the Borg really do assimilate everything.

Q's description seems to be more accurate in the sense they only go after things they identify as worth having. They ignore everything else unless it really gets in their face which is why the Talaxians / Kazon remain untouched despite Seven noting the Talaxians were good tactical drones or something.
They already paid the Feds / Romies a visit earlier in TNG which may or may not have been the catalyst for the Cube being on the way. Depends if you consider ENT 200 year message from the Borg to be a factor in the Borg cube being on the way.

The Borg seem to have better tech than most of the galaxy which would explain the limp response from the Borg when it comes to going for the Feds. If they really wanted to, the Borg should be more than capable of dominating a lot of the galaxy with aggressive expansion. The DQ was hardly an impressive collection of advanced races capable of fighting off the Borg.

Meanwhile, when the Borg were faced with immediate risk of utter destruction. They completely went batshit crazy by throwing 15 cube fleets around. I would have to concur the collective may be really slow as a result of just how big it is. The decision making system must be extremely heavy on bandwidth which would make expansion less desirable.