Latin no longer required for new plant species descriptions.

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply

In favor of the rule change?

Sic ego!
12
27%
Certe Non!
22
49%
Quod in nomine Iovis mentula?
11
24%
 
Total votes: 45

User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Latin no longer required for new plant species descriptions.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle ... story.html
Latin is a bit like a zombie: dead but still clamoring to get into our brains.

In one discipline, however, Latin just got a bit deader.

For at least 400 years, botanists across the globe have relied on Latin as their lingua franca, but the ardor has cooled. Scientists say plants will keep their double-barreled Latin names, but they have decided to drop the requirement that new species be described in the classical language. Instead, they have agreed to allow botanists to use English (other languages need not apply). In their scientific papers, they can still describe a newly found species of plant — or algae or fungi — in Latin if they wish, but most probably won’t.

“The new chatter is in chemicals and molecules,” said Laurence Dorr, one of three Latinists in the Smithsonian Institution’s botany department who would help their colleagues translate. “It was heading toward extinction,” said Warren Wagner, department chair.

The change, which took effect Jan. 1, is more than just academic. Smithsonian botanists alone might introduce as many as 100 new plant species a year, discovered either on their travels or in the national herbarium, a collection of 5 million dried specimens housed at the Natural History Museum. Globally, scientists discover 2,000 new species per annum. As many as one in five of the world’s plant species have yet to be identified, and not until they are named and known to the scientific community can they can be protected and studied further. “You can’t talk about it until that point,” said James Miller, vice president for science at the New York Botanical Garden. “It’s not the end of knowing a species, it’s the beginning.”

Miller is a big fan of the relaxed rule, which, along with another measure allowing species to be published in electronic journals alone, will remove bottlenecks in the process of getting new flora out there.

When he published the discovery of a small tropical tree called Cordia koemarae, he had to write a Latin description that ran to 100 words and included: “Folia persistentia; laminae anisophyllae, foliis majoribus ellipticis.” Roughly translated: The tree hangs on to its leaves, which vary by size. The bigger leaf blades are elliptical.

“The bottom line is that only a tiny percentage of us really learn much Latin and are really capable of writing a grammatically correct description,” he said. “It’s an additional encumbrance.”

Botanists and horticulturists will continue to use the Latin scientific names for plants as part of their work. The same goes for the pretentious gardener who, trug in one hand, pruners in the other, can wax on about the Syringa (lilac), Salix (willow) or Solidago (goldenrod), et cetera.

Still longing for Latin

The Latin description rule was relaxed by a committee and ratified by delegates to the International Botanical Congress, which gathers every six years. The vote, held in July in Melbourne, Australia, was overwhelming in favor, said Miller and other attendees.

But it wasn’t unanimous. Roy Gereau, a researcher at the Missouri Botanical Garden who opposed it, said the Latin requirement served an important role in preserving the link to botany’s academic past. The rule had been on the books since 1908, but Latin has been the language of international botanists since the Renaissance.

Zoologists dropped the Latin description rule years ago, though botanists point out that while there are only about 5,000 species of mammals on the planet, there are at least 400,000 plant species. Add insects to the animal kingdom mix, however, and you descend into a taxonomic Hades. If plants top half a million, “there are 14 times that many beetles,” Gereau said. “Insect museums seldom catalogue collections at the level of species.”

The learned plant men of the Babel of Europe talked to one another through their Latin texts, and even Latinized their own names. Carolus Clusius, the guy who brought tulips to the West, published the groundbreaking Rariorum Plantarum Historia in 1601. A century and a half later, the Swedish botanist Carl Linnaeus codified taxonomy in Species Plantarum, giving science the system of Latin binomial nomenclature to catalogue species: Homo sapiens, Ginkgo biloba, Tyrannosaurus rex.

Gereau, a Latinist, argues that botanists still need to be versed in the classical language. “There are many works that are not translated that remain important to us that increasingly no one is learning to use,” he said.

Weeding out fraud

On a practical level, the rule was an obstacle to fraud, he said. The Latin requirement helped prevent the naming of bogus species because scientist-translators such as himself acted as gatekeepers, Gereau said. “When you think of the size of the trade in orchids or bromeliads, if you can name a new species and offer it for sale, you can make a hell of a lot of money” from eager collectors and breeders.

His colleague at the botanical garden in St. Louis, Nicholas Turland, supports the change but understands how the old rule worked against bad science. “There’s an awful lot of taxonomy done in orchids by people who are not professional taxonomists — some of it good, some of it not so good and some of it bad. There’s a fear that removing this requirement makes it easier for people to churn out new species that are not scientifically tenable,” he said. “I’m not really convinced Latin was a gatekeeper, more of a tedious obstacle to people trying to do science.”

Although botanical Latin paid homage to the great Roman plant chronicler, Pliny the Elder, it quickly evolved into a specialized, descriptive and scientifically precise language far removed from classical Latin. The late British scholar William Stearn, who wrote the definitive reference book on botanical Latin, said Pliny would have understood the work of Clusius but not that of 19th-century botanical luminaries.

The language of DNA

The wry joke is that even with the diminished role of Latin, the argot used by English-speaking botanists might as well be Latin. In describing flower parts, they speak of “the corolla tubular with spreading lobes.” The familiar thick green leaf of the magnolia is described in one encyclopedia as “elliptic to ovate or subglobose, obtuse to short-acuminate, base attenuate, rounded or cuneate, stiffly coraceous.”

As botanists increasingly seek to deconstruct organisms at the microscopic level and through DNA sequencing, the vernacular descriptions become even more opaque, said Alain Touwaide, a researcher and Latinist at the Smithsonian who would translate for botanists.

Keeping the Latin description, he argued, would ironically make it more understandable. “To make these notions understood, you have to create Latin words that have an etymological root that renders the word self-explainable,” he said. The further loss of Latin “is a pity.”
So, we have had a number of weighty discussions in here lately, and I thought I might lighten the mood and stem some fun discussion at the same time. OK, so here is the deal. When a new species is discovered, it has to be formally described. The scientist who discovered it has to submit a paper naming the new species, describing is morphology and proving that it is in fact a new species. Every other discipline within biology has been doing this in english or german (the transition from german to english, by no means complete as a matter of fact, happened predictably at the end of the second world war). Botany however, has been a hold out, and has stubbornly stuck to latin until this year.

I have to say, this makes me sad. I love latin, and it makes me sad that this happened. There are also good reasons to keep latin.

1) Having to go through specialists fluent in latin at the major museums acts as a gate-keeper with an institutional memory. This can weed out fraud (pun intended), but also helps avoid synonymy (where the same species gets described and named multiple times).

2) They might as well be speaking in latin when they write in english anyway considering the fact that most of the terms used ARE latin, they just stop using inflected grammar...

3) Sentiment

4) Connection to the history of their discipline, all the way back to the heady days of Pliny the Elder.

So what say you all with respect to this change?

(Poll option translation, YES!, NO!, What in the name of Jupiter's Prick?)
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Note: This does not apply for the naming. That is still in latin. It applies to the ENTIRE paper.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Lord Zentei »

“The bottom line is that only a tiny percentage of us really learn much Latin and are really capable of writing a grammatically correct description,” he said. “It’s an additional encumbrance.”
Color me unsympathetic.

My vote is "no".
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

I definitely understand why they would want to relax these rules, but I don't particularly like it. Of course, not being a botanist myself and getting to tease my botanist friends is certainly a motivation ...
They might as well be speaking in latin when they write in english anyway considering the fact that most of the terms used ARE latin, they just stop using inflected grammar...
This is the first thing I thought, of, actually when I saw the thread title. I mean, if they aren't fluent in Latin their grammar won't be great ANYWAY, so why bastardize things even more?

EDIT: Also, in this day and age, this sort of translation is pretty trivial, even without going directly to a museum specialist.
User avatar
AMT
Jedi Knight
Posts: 865
Joined: 2008-11-21 12:26pm

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by AMT »

Eh. I see no reason not to. Seems to be a bit of a Sacred Cow to keep it as is.
User avatar
evilsoup
Jedi Knight
Posts: 793
Joined: 2011-04-01 11:41am
Location: G-D SAVE THE QUEEN

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by evilsoup »

Well translating a name into Latin seems like a pretty easy thing to do (just go to a university library if you really need help, surely?), and I like little touches of eccentricity like this, so I think it should be kept the way it is.
And also one of the ingredients to making a pony is cocaine. -Darth Fanboy.

My Little Warhammer: Friendship is Heresy - Latest Chapter: 7 - Rainbow Crash
User avatar
SCRawl
Has a bad feeling about this.
Posts: 4191
Joined: 2002-12-24 03:11pm
Location: Burlington, Canada

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by SCRawl »

Of the four reasons AD gave, I can think that only #1 carries any weight, and even that's a pretty weak argument. I will summarize my arguments against the other three:

#2: So...no real difference then, except that these descriptions will be approachable by non-fluent Latin speakers.
#3: Sentiment is of no value in science.
#4: Tradition is the worst reason for doing anything. If one is faced with two competing methods of doing something, of which one is the incumbent, then that method ought to carry only an infinitesimal advantage over its alternative. This falls under the category of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". If the alternative is "better" -- I use quotes because "better" can be subjective -- and the benefits outweigh the changeover costs, giddyup.

In the name of disclosure, I'm not a biologist of any kind. My science background is in physics, where a good, solid grounding in Latin is generally of no use.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.

I'm waiting as fast as I can.
Alerik the Fortunate
Jedi Knight
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-07-22 09:25pm
Location: Planet Facepalm, Home of the Dunning-Krugerites

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Alerik the Fortunate »

So English is the new Latin? What about all the species with Latin names; will they just be given new English names? English isn't going to be around forever, at least not as it is now. Shall we now have the history of science be a history of the rise and fall of dominant languages and cultures? Just stick to Latin and let future botanists familiarize themselves with just one dead language for nomenclature.
Every day is victory.
No victory is forever.
User avatar
SCRawl
Has a bad feeling about this.
Posts: 4191
Joined: 2002-12-24 03:11pm
Location: Burlington, Canada

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by SCRawl »

According to the article, the names will still be in Latin. English is to be used to describe them.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.

I'm waiting as fast as I can.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22459
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Mr Bean »

Alerik the Fortunate wrote:So English is the new Latin? What about all the species with Latin names; will they just be given new English names? English isn't going to be around forever, at least not as it is now. Shall we now have the history of science be a history of the rise and fall of dominant languages and cultures? Just stick to Latin and let future botanists familiarize themselves with just one dead language for nomenclature.
:banghead:
This is the kind of thinking that makes me want to slam my head against a wall. No one uses Latin period. In fact it acts as a massive gate to Science in general when the public ignores your "scientific" names in favor one ones people can pronounce and are familiar with. Unlike Latin, English is not a dead language nor a closed language. English is a language of thieves, why do we use Latin terms in English? Because English steals them. Why is English such a useful language? Because billions of people speak it, not on a first language basis, most are 2nd or 3rd languages. But there's a great deal of other bits of science that have nothing to do with the biological sciences that embraced English with a fervor. Latin is a remnant of the days when all learning was in Latin so naming things as a prot-universal language made some sense. But these days?

Leave it, let it die. It's sentimentality not sensibility that keeps things in Latin.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Mr Bean wrote:This is the kind of thinking that makes me want to slam my head against a wall. No one uses Latin period. In fact it acts as a massive gate to Science in general when the public ignores your "scientific" names in favor one ones people can pronounce and are familiar with. Unlike Latin, English is not a dead language nor a closed language. English is a language of thieves, why do we use Latin terms in English? Because English steals them. Why is English such a useful language? Because billions of people speak it, not on a first language basis, most are 2nd or 3rd languages. But there's a great deal of other bits of science that have nothing to do with the biological sciences that embraced English with a fervor. Latin is a remnant of the days when all learning was in Latin so naming things as a prot-universal language made some sense. But these days?

Leave it, let it die. It's sentimentality not sensibility that keeps things in Latin.
Actually, it should be the opposite. It is BECAUSE Latin is a largely "dead" language that it is useful for scientific classification. The problem is that the names most people call animals, the common names, are very imprecise. And vary by region/dialect/even individual. "Daddy-long-legs," for example, is a common English name used to describe three VERY different types of animal (two unrelated arachnids and a type of fly). The reason Latin is so useful in classification is because nobody is using those same words for anything else, which is a problem you run into all the time with English and other modern languages. What happens if you discover a new species and call it the "blue ninnypoop," but later learn that, even though it looks like a ninnypoop, it is actually a species of fuckburger? And there is already a species called the "blue fuckburger"? Separating common and scientific names is VERY important, and it makes thing easy when the scientific names are a constant, in the same form and everything.
Grandmaster Jogurt
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1725
Joined: 2004-12-16 04:01am

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

the article wrote:Scientists say plants will keep their double-barreled Latin names [...]

Botanists and horticulturists will continue to use the Latin scientific names for plants as part of their work.
How many people didn't actually read the article? The linnaean naming system isn't being changed; all they're dropping is that the plants be described in Latin when being submitted as new species.
Alerik the Fortunate
Jedi Knight
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-07-22 09:25pm
Location: Planet Facepalm, Home of the Dunning-Krugerites

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Alerik the Fortunate »

Ziggy gets the basic point across I was trying to make: consistently using one dead language makes archiving much easier over long timescales, rather than introducing new languages that will change before they, too, become dead. I did skim the article hastily, so if the actual nomenclature will not be affected at all, but only the submission process, then I am indifferent.
Every day is victory.
No victory is forever.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

#2: So...no real difference then, except that these descriptions will be approachable by non-fluent Latin speakers.
Keep in mind, species descriptions are already pretty damn arcane and inaccessible. It is not like lay-people read them. Ever. There is also another issue... (see below)

#4: Tradition is the worst reason for doing anything. If one is faced with two competing methods of doing something, of which one is the incumbent, then that method ought to carry only an infinitesimal advantage over its alternative. This falls under the category of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". If the alternative is "better" -- I use quotes because "better" can be subjective -- and the benefits outweigh the changeover costs, giddyup.
The changeover costs can actually be rather huge. Say I discover a new species of venus fly trap. In order to describe that species, I have to have read the descriptions for the other species of venus fly trap in order to make sure that I have a new species that has not already been described, and in order to determine what genus it should be in etc. These papers can stretch back a few hundred years, all the way back to Linneaus, and even before. Having a unified language that stays that way through time is extremely useful, because you can ensure direct apples to apples comparisons between species in the same language, and you dont lose things in the translation, misunderstand them etc.

I had this issue when I had to help a friend of mine deal with an old Salamander description paper in german. The paper (from 1927) was written in german (as was the practice in zoology at the time), he was writing in english about another salamander species. If I was off in my translation over into english, mistakes could have been made. He could have for example, described the pattern of speckles on his salamander's back, thinking that the species he was differentiating it from had a different pattern. When in fact, said pattern is the same. Had he been writing in german, he would have noticed that the same set of words were used. The transition costs can be rather large when one thinks about the process of describing a new species. Better I think, to keep both descriptions in the same language.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
Alerik the Fortunate
Jedi Knight
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-07-22 09:25pm
Location: Planet Facepalm, Home of the Dunning-Krugerites

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Alerik the Fortunate »

I used to deride the use of liturgical languages like Arabic or Sanskrit as a way of obscuring the meaning of the texts from the general populace and giving interested parties wiggle room in their official interpretation. While I don't buy into the sacred or special nature of any language, treating those languages as sacred has led to relative uniformity of spelling and usage for thousands of years over a variety of cultures, which is something that the scientific community needs.
Every day is victory.
No victory is forever.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Sea Skimmer »

I’m no fan of old languages refusing to die, but naming specific plants and animals in Latin makes a lot of sense to me precisely because it makes it clear that this is a unique name and a specific scientific name not to be confused. On the other hand, when the local arboretum names every single tree and bush only in Latin, god is that a pain to remember a name when I get home and want to look it up.

I cant vote in the pool though, its written in some kind of gobbledyook chicken scratch kind of thing from the stone age.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Sea Skimmer wrote:I’m no fan of old languages refusing to die, but naming specific plants and animals in Latin makes a lot of sense to me precisely because it makes it clear that this is a unique name and a specific scientific name not to be confused. On the other hand, when the local arboretum names every single tree and bush only in Latin, god is that a pain to remember a name when I get home and want to look it up.

I cant vote in the pool though, its written in some kind of gobbledyook chicken scratch kind of thing from the stone age.
If you bothered to read the first post:

A) This is a change in the conventions for the entire paper, not just the names, which will retain their latin
B) I translated the options in said first post
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Simon_Jester »

So, let me get this straight.

The documents (which I'm betting can get pretty long) for all past species descriptions (of which there are probably many thousands) will have to be translated into English so they can be read in English.

Is that right? Because from the sound of it, the main reason for wanting the things is so you can cross-compare new species descriptions with old ones to be sure you're not talking about the same plant as some guy in the 19th century. It doesn't matter that now the descriptions are written in English, if the ones from the 19th century weren't written in English too. You still need to do a translation.

Which means, of course, that the backlog of species descriptions for the distant past are going to be subject to translation errors, and that there's a whole pile of work to be done by the handful of botanists who can read Latin well enough to translate 200+ years of botanical documents into English.

And, of course, we may have to have this whole debate all over again if in a hundred years' time the dominant global language is Spanish or Chinese. Because as Ben says, in zoology, the dominant language for describing species less than ninety years ago was German, which is hardly a contender for a global lingua franca today.

While this may be progress, let's not pretend that it's cost-free progress.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22459
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Mr Bean »

The difference is Alyrium even if we are back here in a hundred years switching from English to a third language translation costs with be non-existent because unlike Latin it's a language still in use. Besides a hundred years from now unless we nuke, starve or war our self back technology should have solved the translation issue.

Latin carries a large barrier to the public. You might think no one is reading these things but the simple fact is that's an assumption. We are every day moving to break down the barriers so if I want a good study about the difference between Salamander, Pink sparkly one and Salamander, Poka dot blue I won't be trying to tell the difference between Andrias davidianus and Andrias japonicus. It's also something that you'll notice Alyrium other newer sciences or new fields in existing sciences have been rushing out to adopt. Once e get the biologists we are going after the medical doctors next. We will overcome, we will overcome, we will overcome some day.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Latin no longer required for new plant species descripti

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
If you bothered to read the first post:

A) This is a change in the conventions for the entire paper, not just the names, which will retain their latin
B) I translated the options in said first post
Sorry, doing a lot of schoolwork today and I skimmed the crap out of it. The idea that Latin was still being mandated for detailed descriptions... boy does that seem like a waste of time. If someone actually wants to spread fraud that's not going to stop them; mandating a dozen different digital photographs all taken from different angles and magnifications, so every single one would have to be faked in turn, in ordered to claim a new species seems like a much better defense against that. I don't see how Latin makes any difference for unintentional redundancy, if anything it's just reducing the pool of people who could help sort out such problems. as for B), it was a poor joke, if I really wanted to know the options I'd Google it.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Post Reply