Optimus Metallus wrote:
I also heard that the Klingon War was forced on them, which is why the Changeling infiltration angle was dropped. If not for that, then the show would've focused more on internal Federation politics as the Changelines destabilized the Federation, ultimately causing Vulcan to secede. Anyone know if there's any truth to that? Either way it sounds great. While I did enjoy what we got, I do think the Klingon war was a bit of a sideline, even though it was still part of the Dominion plot to destabilize the Alpha Quadrant (And it did provide one of the best season ending scenes ever, with Odo saying that Gowron was a Changeling).
I never heard the Vulcan secession idea. But yeah, season 4 was supposed to open with a two-parter similar, if not the same as "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost", to continue on the thread of the season 3 finale (which concluded with Odo announcing he learned the Changelings were "everywhere"). Paramount wanted to bring Worf on board and to make the Klingons bad guys again instead. So, "Way of the Warrior" was written, and the Dominion infiltration of Earth was pushed back.
I did like how the writers took the Changeling threat and used it to set off the Klingon-Cardassian conflict though.
-A.L.
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence...Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge
"If you're falling off a cliff you may as well try to fly, you've got nothing to lose." - John Sheridan (Babylon 5)
"Sometimes you got to roll the hard six." - William Adama (Battlestar Galactica)
Optimus Metallus wrote:
I also heard that the Klingon War was forced on them, which is why the Changeling infiltration angle was dropped. If not for that, then the show would've focused more on internal Federation politics as the Changelines destabilized the Federation, ultimately causing Vulcan to secede. Anyone know if there's any truth to that? Either way it sounds great. While I did enjoy what we got, I do think the Klingon war was a bit of a sideline, even though it was still part of the Dominion plot to destabilize the Alpha Quadrant (And it did provide one of the best season ending scenes ever, with Odo saying that Gowron was a Changeling).
I never heard the Vulcan secession idea. But yeah, season 4 was supposed to open with a two-parter similar, if not the same as "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost", to continue on the thread of the season 3 finale (which concluded with Odo announcing he learned the Changelings were "everywhere"). Paramount wanted to bring Worf on board and to make the Klingons bad guys again instead. So, "Way of the Warrior" was written, and the Dominion infiltration of Earth was pushed back.
I did like how the writers took the Changeling threat and used it to set off the Klingon-Cardassian conflict though.
The secession sounds interesting- how would the Federation adapt/cope with a key member world leaving? Would they even allow it? The ultimate divide and conquer scenario, instead of the one we got. It really annoys me how much the executives at Paramount interfered with DS9.
Skylon wrote:I did like how the writers took the Changeling threat and used it to set off the Klingon-Cardassian conflict though.
And it ultimately all worked out for the long-term.
The Klingon Invasion lead to the near destruction of the Cardassian state, which ultimately led Dukat to seek an alliance with the Dominion -- all the more ironic given the Dominion's annhilation of Obsidian Order kicked off the chain of events that led us to that point.
Yes, and to me the idea of Vulcan seceeding does make a lot of sense. Think about it: When the Federation was created I imagine the Vulcans thought that they'd be the senior partner while Earth would be the junior partner. After all, it was Earth who'd recently come off a devastating nuclear war and had to be rebuilt. It was Earth who'd only recently gotten warp drive while Vulcans had been flying around the galaxy for much longer. Vulcan was far more technologically advanced than Earth. They probably had every reason to believe that it would be their people driving the politics of the Federation, but nope, it's the Humans who end up running the show.
Think back to Azetbur's line from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country when she said that "everybody knows that the Federation is a Homo-Sapiens Only Club". Is that the general view which aliens outside of the Federation hold? That they claim to be about equal rights for all alien species, "but really, we all know that some races are more equal than others, and it's humans who run the show"? Could that view extend to within the Federation's borders as well? Could there be some Federation member worlds who're resentful of the power which Earth and the Humans hold in comparison to the rest of the member worlds? And if that's the case, then that resentment would be most pronounced amongst the worlds and races that were there from the very founding of the Federation and should, by rights, hold equal or near-equal power in Federation politics.
That resentment could only be compounded by travel outside of the Federation. If as I assume Azetbur's views on the Federation are a common one, then one could imagine that the non-human Federation citizens could find themselves mocked and derided for being human lapdogs. Hell, even on Starfleet ships, I could see a Starfleet vessel with an alien captain hailing a Klingon ship, only for the Klingon captain to insult the captain and ask to speak with the highest ranking human officer, "because everybody knows it's the humans who're really in charge." And God knows how they would've reacted to Admiral Leyton's coup. A coup instigated by a human with primarily human officers supporting him. So yes, I definitely do think that DS9 had a lot of potential to play with by exploring the possible tensions amongst the worlds of the Federation. It's a shame they couldn't play up that angle, though I am pretty happy with the alternative.
I recall reading interviews with Behr about how he wanted to do certain things- like have the occupation of Deep Space Nine last the whole of Season 6- that Paramount vetoed. He also wanted to have both of Nog's legs blown off in 'The Siege of AR-558'. He had to fight tooth and nail to have one leg taken off instead. DS9 was a great show, but could have been better if not for meddling executives.
The occupation lasting a full season instead of only six episodes would've been absolutely amazing! And yeah, I remember hearing about that bit about Nog. It got so ridiculous that they compromised on one leg but then started arguing about how much of his leg he'd lose, if it were above the knee, below the knee, etc.
- The Romulans. Outsmarted by the Founders, tricked by a tailor and derided by Sisko for having weak ships.
When did Sisko ever deride their ships? I seem to recall his wanting the Romulans in the war. As for being "tricked by a tailor", Garak used to be one of the best Obsidian Order agents.
- Galaxy Class: One time was enough, I didn't have to see it explode every other episode in the later seasons. It's an iconic Trek vessel, it shouldn't have been treated as disposable cannon fodder.
They only blew up a Galaxy Class ship one time. Aside from the Odyssey, can you point to any scene where more Galaxy Class starships were destroyed? Because I can't think of a single scene aside from that episode where we saw any Galaxy Class ships destroyed. They certainly weren't destroyed "every other episode."
Brother-Captain Optimus Metallus
Ultramarines 3rd Battle Company
Havok wrote:That said, how many "We serve the Founders in all things" episodes could they do? It would be like doing episodes about different Federation planets and cultures. Hey... they are all peaceful and boring.
Actually I would have enjoyed a bit more exploration of Federation planets and cultures. And as it stood, the Gamma quadrant was bereft of any political complexity. For the purpose of entertaining the audience they could have provided some interesting insight in the political aspects of the Gamma quadrant. E.g. an episode where it's revealed that the Dominion is not the only presence in the Gamma quadrant. And that they are actively preventing other powers from discovering the wormhole.
- The Ferengi. As mentioned by others in this thread, they were mistreated. A comic foil, in the derogatory sense. Quite a shame, because their culture could have been fascinating. Their contribution to the Dominion war was also non-existent. Rather disappointing, as their cultural institutions would have allowed for their war effort to be rather colorful.
Ridiculous. The Ferengi got one of the most in depth treatments of all the races in DS9. We saw everything from their leader, cultural revolution, Ferengi law, Ferengi mercenaries, the dirtier side of the quest for profit (Gaella), Ferengi love, family and social structure.
It was a simplistic rendition of a culture that could have had potential. And it was clear that they were significantly dumbed down after the first seasons.
They also had no interest in the war as it would have cut off the trade they had already established with Dominion members. The Dominion had no interest in conquering them either as they posed no threat and were fully capable of operating under Dominion rule.
I was under the impression that all Dominion members were prohibited of trading with alpha quadrant ships. Spoiler
One of the reasons why the Nagus turned to the alternate reality for new trading options?
And perhaps the Ferengi weren't interested in operating under Dominion rule.
Their military contribution to the Dominion war would have added some additional color, if handled correctly.
I can get behind this. The Romulans should have been more present from the minute they brought in the Defiant and the cloaking device. They should have had a permanent presence on the station and in the series.
Agreed.
Yeah, and he was the one to strike the deal with the Dominion. What's so hard to stomach about this? He was shown from day one to only care about power and would do almost anything to claim it.
He had barely any political clout left before the sudden turn. He would have made an unlikely subject.
In one sentence you say the Ferengi weren't involved enough, then you are complaining that a Ferengi and not the Federation came up with one of the most important defensive technologies of the war?
The Ferengi Alliance, not a single Federation officer that happened to be Ferengi.
Oh get out of here with this fucking shit. Aside from the fact that we only see maybe 3 Galaxy's bite it the whole Dominion run, having them get totaled gave the Dominion some teeth, but I suppose you think Picard and the crew would have flown straight to the Founder home world, signed a treaty, ended the war, saved the galaxy and brought the Dominion into the Federation and commissioned a Changeling as a Commander in a two part episode.
The TNG crew would have reprogrammed a Borg cube and sent it through the wormhole to lay waste to the Founder homeworld and cripple the Dominion militarily. (Or at the very least prevented a great deal of huffing from Sisko.)
Oh for fucks sake... did you even watch the show?
Quantum torpedoes, ablative armor, Breen energy weapon etc., etc.. The show had a constant back and fourth with variations of the "tiresome trope" on both sides. I suppose La Forge ans Data would have come up with awesome new SUPERWEAPONS to save the day right?
Could we even tell the difference between phaser bursts and quantum torpedoes? And the much vaunted 'ablative armor' turned out to be paper thin at best. As for the Breen energy weapons, they were simplistic and bereft of sophistication.
Even the Maquis made a better show of it. Weren't they planning to outfit warp-capable missiles with cloaking devices in one of those episodes? And they had also managed to reprogram a fully automated Cardassian missile-warship at one point in Voyager.
I don't even... whatever dude. Don't get too much splooge on your TNG DVDs.
TNG in the first couple of seasons was brilliant. Photon torpedo spreads, dismounting saucer sections, calculated use of phasers. The entire ship practically lit up when they were battling the Borg Cube. And they didn't need to fire a single shot to make an episode with the Romulans exciting.
---------
Stofk wrote:I actually think DS9 did more to redeem the image of the Galaxy-class than anything else. Sure the Odyssey blew up but it was important to do that to establish the threat the Dominion and the Jem'hadar represented. The writers also said that had it been the Enterprise-D there, she would have died just as quickly too.
It was engaging at the time, but when the initial effect wore off, the sensation quickly turned to dissatisfaction. The Galaxy-class should fall to a superior vessel, not those aesthetically crippled Jem'hadar bug-ships. (Or for that matter a forty year old Klingon vessel.)
Also I liked how in DS9 the villains were the ones who were technologically superior. The Dominion came across as a more technologically advanced mirror version of the Federation.
Most of the Federation opponents were technologically superior at some point.
CaptHawkeye wrote:They just have more character than the Borg do. On top of that they're not a walking one note stereotype like the Klingons. I'm really starting to feel like they were the best "evil empire" villain in Star Trek.
It was an utterly uninspired military-industrial complex, and their modus operandi consisted primarily out of churning out cheap, expendable (and ugly looking) ships at accelerated rates. The Vorta were disposable, the Jem'Hadar were disposable -- practically every single last thing was disposable, except for the Founders. And the Founders had the cultural sophistication of commercially prepared gelatin powder.
MonthyPython wrote:The Changeling thing was something I had a real beef with the folks on Memory Alpha (eg., if shapeshifting could be inhibited, detection would be that much of a difficulty), but they were an interesting antagonist compared to the Drakh in the B5 sequels.
I'll take the Founders over the Drakh any day.
Optimus Metallus wrote:When did Sisko ever deride their ships? I seem to recall his wanting the Romulans in the war. As for being "tricked by a tailor", Garak used to be one of the best Obsidian Order agents.
They were characterized as not faring well in combat situations. And I'm perfectly aware of Garak's background. It was uttered in the spirit of jest, and derision.
They only blew up a Galaxy Class ship one time. Aside from the Odyssey, can you point to any scene where more Galaxy Class starships were destroyed? Because I can't think of a single scene aside from that episode where we saw any Galaxy Class ships destroyed. They certainly weren't destroyed "every other episode."
I'm unable to rewatch the series, but that was the general impression, as phrased with a bit of hyperbole.
Hey I could dislike 1000 things with any opponent in Star Trek too. It turns out it's all perspective?
The Vorta were disposable, the Jem'Hadar were disposable -- practically every single last thing was disposable, except for the Founders. And the Founders had the cultural sophistication of commercially prepared gelatin powder.
Which was all kind of the point bro, that the Founders viewed their followers as little more than cannon fodder for their will. They're just polite about it.
CaptHawkeye wrote:Which was all kind of the point bro, that the Founders viewed their followers as little more than cannon fodder for their will. They're just polite about it.
It made for unremarkable and rather tedious television.
According to you? I thought the Klingons were so god damn stupid in practically all of their TNG outings that I couldn't even watch the episodes they were involved in. The Borg, for all their reputation, don't show up frequently enough and ultimately are not that convincing in their supposed danger. They blow up a colony here and there but really the only times in TNG history they ever did anything remotely interesting was in Best of Both Worlds and First Contact.
Havok wrote:That said, how many "We serve the Founders in all things" episodes could they do? It would be like doing episodes about different Federation planets and cultures. Hey... they are all peaceful and boring.
Actually I would have enjoyed a bit more exploration of Federation planets and cultures. And as it stood, the Gamma quadrant was bereft of any political complexity. For the purpose of entertaining the audience they could have provided some interesting insight in the political aspects of the Gamma quadrant. E.g. an episode where it's revealed that the Dominion is not the only presence in the Gamma quadrant. And that they are actively preventing other powers from discovering the wormhole.
And the Federation is a hot bed of political complexity? EL OH FUCKING EL.
- The Ferengi. As mentioned by others in this thread, they were mistreated. A comic foil, in the derogatory sense. Quite a shame, because their culture could have been fascinating. Their contribution to the Dominion war was also non-existent. Rather disappointing, as their cultural institutions would have allowed for their war effort to be rather colorful.
Ridiculous. The Ferengi got one of the most in depth treatments of all the races in DS9. We saw everything from their leader, cultural revolution, Ferengi law, Ferengi mercenaries, the dirtier side of the quest for profit (Gaella), Ferengi love, family and social structure.
It was a simplistic rendition of a culture that could have had potential. And it was clear that they were significantly dumbed down after the first seasons.
Soooo you are just going to ignore the issues that I pointed out in regards to the Ferengi and just keep whaling THE FERENGI COULD HAVE BEEN COVERED BETTER?!? Man, you dumbfuck, need to learn the difference between doing something and doing something you don't like. You DON'T LIKE how the Ferengi were portrayed. It however was not simplistic, nor dumbed down.
They also had no interest in the war as it would have cut off the trade they had already established with Dominion members. The Dominion had no interest in conquering them either as they posed no threat and were fully capable of operating under Dominion rule.
I was under the impression that all Dominion members were prohibited of trading with alpha quadrant ships. Spoiler
One of the reasons why the Nagus turned to the alternate reality for new trading options?
And perhaps the Ferengi weren't interested in operating under Dominion rule.
See what happens when you open your mouth without knowing what you are talking about.
Their military contribution to the Dominion war would have added some additional color, if handled correctly.
You keep saying this... what is additional "color"?
Yeah, and he was the one to strike the deal with the Dominion. What's so hard to stomach about this? He was shown from day one to only care about power and would do almost anything to claim it.
He had barely any political clout left before the sudden turn. He would have made an unlikely subject.
Wow. That was the point. He REGAINED his power and clout by bringing the Cardassian Union into alliance with the Dominion. I mean... did you watch any of DS9 at all?
In one sentence you say the Ferengi weren't involved enough, then you are complaining that a Ferengi and not the Federation came up with one of the most important defensive technologies of the war?
The Ferengi Alliance, not a single Federation officer that happened to be Ferengi.
Rom wasn't a Federation officer that happened to be Ferengi. That would be Nog. If you can't even be assed to have the basic facts correct, it's no wonder your analysis of the show is so ridiculous.
Oh get out of here with this fucking shit. Aside from the fact that we only see maybe 3 Galaxy's bite it the whole Dominion run, having them get totaled gave the Dominion some teeth, but I suppose you think Picard and the crew would have flown straight to the Founder home world, signed a treaty, ended the war, saved the galaxy and brought the Dominion into the Federation and commissioned a Changeling as a Commander in a two part episode.
The TNG crew would have reprogrammed a Borg cube and sent it through the wormhole to lay waste to the Founder homeworld and cripple the Dominion militarily. (Or at the very least prevented a great deal of huffing from Sisko.)
Use all the smiley faces you want... you actually think this.
Oh for fucks sake... did you even watch the show?
Quantum torpedoes, ablative armor, Breen energy weapon etc., etc.. The show had a constant back and fourth with variations of the "tiresome trope" on both sides. I suppose La Forge ans Data would have come up with awesome new SUPERWEAPONS to save the day right?
Could we even tell the difference between phaser bursts and quantum torpedoes?
Whoa boy... fellas, I think I actually am getting trolled here.
And the much vaunted 'ablative armor' turned out to be paper thin at best. As for the Breen energy weapons, they were simplistic and bereft of sophistication.
So first it is "VARIATION LACKING!" now it's "VARIATIONS AREN'T SOPHISTICATED!!" I mean, do you even understand what you are saying or are you just throwing out words that you think make you sound like you actually have a clue what you are talking about. Try not moving the goal posts so fast.
Even the Maquis made a better show of it. Weren't they planning to outfit warp-capable missiles with cloaking devices in one of those episodes? And they had also managed to reprogram a fully automated Cardassian missile-warship at one point in Voyager.
And how did that turn out for the Marqui? Oh... that's right.
I don't even... whatever dude. Don't get too much splooge on your TNG DVDs.
TNG in the first couple of seasons was brilliant. Photon torpedo spreads, dismounting saucer sections, calculated use of phasers. The entire ship practically lit up when they were battling the Borg Cube. And they didn't need to fire a single shot to make an episode with the Romulans exciting.
I hope you keep a pallet of tissue next to your TNG shrine.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it. Blank Yellow (NSFW)
Why is he gushing so much over special effects? I mean, really? You thought the first season of TNG was amazing because the Enterprise could do a saucer separation?
Havok wrote:And the Federation is a hot bed of political complexity? EL OH FUCKING EL.
The Federation wasn't portrayed correctly in DS9, another point weighing against the series.
Soooo you are just going to ignore the issues that I pointed out in regards to the Ferengi and just keep whaling THE FERENGI COULD HAVE BEEN COVERED BETTER?!? Man, you dumbfuck, need to learn the difference between doing something and doing something you don't like. You DON'T LIKE how the Ferengi were portrayed. It however was not simplistic, nor dumbed down.
Spoiler
You referred to things like Moogie running the entire Ferengi economy, or Quark turning into a post-operative drag queen in order to restore the Grand Nagus' seat of power, or Quark saving his mother from the Dominion on behest of the Grand Nagus by enlisting the aid of a ragtag group of Ferengi misfits (all the previous Ferengi seen in the series), or Quark being forced to rescue the Grand Nagus, the head of state of the Ferengi Alliance, from the other universe. I suppose his intelligence operatives weren't available at the time.
See what happens when you open your mouth without knowing what you are talking about.
It's a nasty draft.
You keep saying this... what is additional "color"?
Colorful entertainment.
Wow. That was the point. He REGAINED his power and clout by bringing the Cardassian Union into alliance with the Dominion. I mean... did you watch any of DS9 at all?
Unlikely candidate.
In one sentence you say the Ferengi weren't involved enough, then you are complaining that a Ferengi and not the Federation came up with one of the most important defensive technologies of the war?
Well I'm more than willing to entertain the notion that the DS9 version of the Ferengi Alliance was somehow cosmically represented by Rom -- an aspect of their collective consciousness, if you will. Can you almost hear them? All those billions of Ferengi? All chanting:
Spoiler
"M-o-o-o-o-o-o-g-i-e-e-e-e-e!"
Rom wasn't a Federation officer that happened to be Ferengi. That would be Nog. If you can't even be assed to have the basic facts correct, it's no wonder your analysis of the show is so ridiculous.
It's been quite some time since I've seen the show. But I'm more than willing to acknowledge the fact that Rom, a piddling Bajoran technician, was party to highly classified weapons research meant to save the Alpha quadrant.
Wait ...
Use all the smiley faces you want... you actually think this.
Did I say a single Borg Cube? I meant to say that they would have persuaded Q to magically whisk the Enterprise into the Gamma quadrant while inside a Voth city-ship. This Voth city-ship would then send its military arm of compromised Borg Cubes to assimilate the Dominion, while Q, the Voth representative and the TNG crew discuss the finer philosophical and ethical implications of accidentally sneezing in front of a shallow pool of primordial ooze.
Whoa boy... fellas, I think I actually am getting trolled here.
Actually, the weapons usage of the Defiant was inconsistently portrayed in the series. You really did have a hard time telling the one from the other. It's that the captain of the ship narrated the instructions, otherwise we wouldn't even have known that they still had 'quantum torpedoes' on board.
[So first it is "VARIATION LACKING!" now it's "VARIATIONS AREN'T SOPHISTICATED!!" I mean, do you even understand what you are saying or are you just throwing out words that you think make you sound like you actually have a clue what you are talking about. Try not moving the goal posts so fast.
Unsophisticated, lack of variation, seems about right.
And how did that turn out for the Marqui? Oh... that's right.
The missile-ship was rather successful.
I hope you keep a pallet of tissue next to your TNG shrine.
I do, actually.
CaptHawkeye wrote:Why is he gushing so much over special effects? I mean, really? You thought the first season of TNG was amazing because the Enterprise could do a saucer separation?
The early seasons of the TNG series had a great deal of ship & weapons innovation that genuinely managed to entertain the audience.
Optimus Metallus wrote:When did Sisko ever deride their ships? I seem to recall his wanting the Romulans in the war. As for being "tricked by a tailor", Garak used to be one of the best Obsidian Order agents.
They were characterized as not faring well in combat situations. And I'm perfectly aware of Garak's background. It was uttered in the spirit of jest, and derision.
This is a fannon meme that has gone around for a few years, the idea that Romulan ships are somehow not as effective as their equivalent Federation ones. (Galaxy compared to Warbird for example) And somehow it is now "offically" true. Yes the design of the Warbird is rubbish but it has never been stated in-universe that it is a weak ship.
Can I please have the exact quote where Sisko actually says that the Romulan ships are not faring well in combat in the Domiinion war. I strongly suspect that this is something you have no proof of.
In the final battle of the Dominion war, the Romulan portion of the fleet is said to be having trouble, if I remember correctly. As I recall, though, this was in the context of their flagship having been destroyed, which would explain their problems without their ships being inferior.
I also suspect that the Romulans are lacking in experienced fighters. Remember that the Romulans very, very rarely engage in major conflicts in canon. Wasn't the last major war they fought the Earth/Romulan War a couple centuries back?
That's only the last major war they had with Earth. They fight with their other neighbours, skirmish with the klingons intermittently (Khitomer, Narendra III, and Commander Toreth bragged about how a failed ambush on klingons had victory snatched out of the jaws of defeat via her tactical acumen), and what's-his-name Admiral Jalok or whatever was also some kind of butcher. The Norkin Massacre or something which he called the Norkin Campaigns.
There seems to be a fanon theory that Warbirds have a great opening volley first strike capability, which the cloaking device gives them, but may lack staying power in a long fight.
WORF
The Romulan has passed us, sir,
and recloaked.
PICARD
Damage report.
WORF
No casualties reported. Seventy
percent loss to main shields, sir.
This is from what, 5-6 shots? I can't remember exactly.
There is no evidance from what I can see that either the Romulans make crap ships or themselves are poor fighters. (comnpared to the other Star Trek races anyway).
Stofsk wrote:That's only the last major war they had with Earth. They fight with their other neighbours, skirmish with the klingons intermittently (Khitomer, Narendra III, and Commander Toreth bragged about how a failed ambush on klingons had victory snatched out of the jaws of defeat via her tactical acumen), and what's-his-name Admiral Jalok or whatever was also some kind of butcher. The Norkin Massacre or something which he called the Norkin Campaigns.
There seems to be a fanon theory that Warbirds have a great opening volley first strike capability, which the cloaking device gives them, but may lack staying power in a long fight.
Granted, they've had other fights, but there's a difference between border skirmishes and a full-scale war.
Yeah but I mean those points are only meant to counteract the notion that the rommies are green (heh).
As for the opening volley thing, the Defector had two Warbirds shake the Enterprise around and Picard was like 'this is just a tap on the shoulder, otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about it'. Given he's an expert on the Enterprise's defence systems, and they were at red alert with full shields up, two warbirds decloaking and alpha striking at once should be enough to overwhelm them if the romulans intended to kill them.
Romulan Republic
The Romulans didn't exactly embarrass themselves in the Dominion war. We know that they took at least one system (Benzar) back from the Dominion by themselves. Ya, the Dominion had some Romulan territory before they withdrew behind their perimeter, but they also had Klingon and Federation territory. Its never mentioned once that the Romulans were inexperianced at fighting. Thats just an assumption because they were not involved in a major war that we knew of.
The Federation had a drawn out conflict against the Cardassians and a brief war with the Klingons before the Dominion war. Yet the Federation crew members were not talked about as being battle-hardened and the Romulans being inexperianced newbies.
Stofsk,
I would agree on the The Defector scene. Also something to note, Romulan ships do not have to be "balanced" as regards the Federation ships. Its not a computer game. There is no proof that if the Warbird has a better first strike capability than the Galaxy that it must have poorer all-round protection. It might be just as equal to the Galaxy at its back end.
In one sentence you say the Ferengi weren't involved enough, then you are complaining that a Ferengi and not the Federation came up with one of the most important defensive technologies of the war? 
(Or at the very least prevented a great deal of huffing from Sisko.) 
