Apple & Slave Labour: It gets worse

[Magis]

Le what. Do you have any idea just how high Apple's profit margins are?

Apple's net profit margin in 2011 was 23.95%, which is less than Microsoft's 33.1%, for comparison.

Apple is a hardware company while Microsoft is a software and services company.

Again, my point was simply that Apple is not in a league of their own with a 23.95% net profit margin. If you want a more relevant comparison, I can give you one. Intel Corporation had a 2011 net profit margin of 23.97%, slightly edging past Apple.

All copies of Windows, Windows Server, Xbox games, and Office have margins of 100%.

Firstly, what you're trying to say - that the incremental cost of selling each of those products is zero - is not true. There are still things like distribution costs and even manufacturing the discs, and obviously the cost of servers for their cloud services. But regardless, the figures I was quoting include all expenses, such as R&D, marketing, salaries, taxes, etc.

[Surlethe]

Maybe because not all factories are hellholes, actually. Foxconn does not employ 300 000 000 former Chinese peasants.

I would be quite surprised if Foxconn were very atypical.

[K. A. Pital]

Maybe because not all factories are hellholes, actually. Foxconn does not employ 300 000 000 former Chinese peasants.

I would be quite surprised if Foxconn were very atypical.

I would not be, since I saw some of the factories.

[Skgoa]

Foxconn Plans to Lift Pay Sharply at Factories in China
BEIJING — Foxconn Technology, one of the biggest manufacturers of products for Apple, Dell, Hewlett-Packard and other electronics companies, said Saturday that it would sharply raise worker salaries at its Chinese factories.
Related

Foxconn said that salaries for many workers would immediately jump by 16 to 25 percent, to about $400 a month, before overtime.

The company also said it would reduce overtime hours at its factories.

Labor rights groups say that over the years, many Foxconn plants have violated Chinese labor laws by pushing workers to endure excessive amounts of overtime.

Criticism has grown over working conditions at several Apple suppliers in China, including Foxconn, which employs more than one million workers to assemble some of the world’s most popular devices.

Apple announced last Monday that the Fair Labor Association, a nonprofit group, would provide independent audits of its supplier factories in China and elsewhere. Apple said the group’s findings would be made public. The association began inspecting Foxconn operations in China this week.

Apple and Foxconn, which is based in Taiwan, have strongly denied allegations that the workers are treated poorly. But Apple has acknowledged in its own audits that some of its suppliers in China violate Apple’s own code of conduct, with instances of child labor, forced overtime and unsafe working conditions and evidence that employees are sometimes exposed to hazardous and toxic chemicals.

In recent years, Foxconn facilities in China have experienced a series of worker suicides, and labor rights groups have documented varied abuses.

Last year, four workers were killed and about 20 were injured because of a dust explosion at a Chinese factory that was producing the Apple iPad.

According to Bloomberg News, the auditor at the Fair Labor Association said recently that he had already found “tons of issues” at Foxconn plants. He did not detail the problems.

A Foxconn spokesman could not be reached late Saturday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/techn ... ml?_r=2&hp

[Pendleton]

I do. There were better, cheaper devices available before Apple blew them all out of the market in favour of idiotic designs you can't even use while wearing gloves, and don't even get me started on their computers. "zomg it has a neat power cord (among a few other neat features that nowhere near justify the price) => superior"

I would be quite interested in your computer rant, since it's a common misconception that Macs are hideously expensive (upgrades are another matter: a friend got a RAM upgrade after buying a MacBook Pro that was less than half that advertised in the Apple Store). In terms of the Air, there is really nothing touching it yet that offers the experience and price with build quality. But I'm not fond of this ultrabook obsession and tabletification of computing right now. Likewise, touchscreens not being able to be used with gloves is hardly a huge indictment of the technology. I couldn't text wearing gloves on any of my Nokias either, and I sure as hell couldn't play the kind of games on modern touchscreen smartphones.

[Scrib]

I do. There were better, cheaper devices available before Apple blew them all out of the market in favour of idiotic designs you can't even use while wearing gloves, and don't even get me started on their computers. "zomg it has a neat power cord (among a few other neat features that nowhere near justify the price) => superior"

I would be quite interested in your computer rant, since it's a common misconception that Macs are hideously expensive (upgrades are another matter: a friend got a RAM upgrade after buying a MacBook Pro that was less than half that advertised in the Apple Store). In terms of the Air, there is really nothing touching it yet that offers the experience and price with build quality. But I'm not fond of this ultrabook obsession and tabletification of computing right now. Likewise, touchscreens not being able to be used with gloves is hardly a huge indictment of the technology. I couldn't text wearing gloves on any of my Nokias either, and I sure as hell couldn't play the kind of games on modern touchscreen smartphones.

I'm curious, what "experience" are you talking about exactly do you mean when you say "experience"? Because from what I can see of it's specs I'm not that impressed. Throw in the fact that everyone I've seen with it uses Windows 7 with it I really see nothing special about it. Perhaps you mean for video editing? I hear they're good for that.

[Darth Wong]

Maybe because not all factories are hellholes, actually. Foxconn does not employ 300 000 000 former Chinese peasants.

I would be quite surprised if Foxconn were very atypical.

Why aren't we hearing this many horror stories about other Chinese manufacturers?

[Sea Skimmer]

How many stories work into the western media about actual Chinese methods at all? Its normally only negative stories and not even many of those considering the scale of Chinese Industry. Foxconn doesn't sound as bad as factories in the west were at a similar stage of industrialization, and apple gets all the attention because they make such colossal profits on every sale. That means its kind of blatantly obvious that they could afford much better conditions and still do really well. That isn't going to be true of a lot of other made in China product sold without such a huge markup.

[Skgoa]

I'm curious, what "experience" are you talking about exactly do you mean when you say "experience"? Because from what I can see of it's specs I'm not that impressed. Throw in the fact that everyone I've seen with it uses Windows 7 with it I really see nothing special about it. Perhaps you mean for video editing? I hear they're good for that.

We have been over this soooo many times... if you want to have a top notch "professional use" computer then you get much more moneyage (hey, you guys use words like milage and voltage ) with an apple. If you want to play games, using anything but the newest Windows is a pain in the ass and if just need a web browser and a text editor, many netbooks are far cheaper.
edit: And while I am at it, running a server on the internet with anything but Linux or BSD is... not advisable.

[Scrib]

I'm curious, what "experience" are you talking about exactly do you mean when you say "experience"? Because from what I can see of it's specs I'm not that impressed. Throw in the fact that everyone I've seen with it uses Windows 7 with it I really see nothing special about it. Perhaps you mean for video editing? I hear they're good for that.

We have been over this soooo many times... if you want to have a top notch "professional use" computer then you get much more moneyage (hey, you guys use words like milage and voltage ) with an apple. If you want to play games, using anything but the newest Windows is a pain in the ass and if just need a web browser and a text editor, many netbooks are far cheaper.
edit: And while I am at it, running a server on the internet with anything but Linux or BSD is... not advisable.

Yes, I'm aware that Pros use them, I meant for the average user who is willing to spend a thousand bucks for a laptop with an OS they're never gonna use and disk space that makes me weep. What are they getting? Besides completing their Apple collection that is.

[phongn]

Yes, I'm aware that Pros use them, I meant for the average user who is willing to spend a thousand bucks for a laptop with an OS they're never gonna use and disk space that makes me weep. What are they getting? Besides completing their Apple collection that is.

They might like the UI/UX of OS X over Windows (even if they'll be using a web browser most of the time). They'll get a laptop that is reasonably well built (virtually all consumer laptops on the PC side are cheaply designed - you need a business-grade laptop to get some actual engineering thought). The LCDs are actually decent. Maybe they like how it looks. There are compelling reasons for buying a Mac, even with the price premium over a similarly priced Windows machine.

[Lord Zentei]

Maybe because not all factories are hellholes, actually. Foxconn does not employ 300 000 000 former Chinese peasants.

I would be quite surprised if Foxconn were very atypical.

Why aren't we hearing this many horror stories about other Chinese manufacturers?

Well, Apple is an American company, so they are likely to be judged by westerners based on what standards are kosher in the west. Second, they're an easier target than Chinese firms, not to mention the Chinese government. Picking your battles for this kind of thing makes sense, I guess. At least it's understandable. Third, and related to the second reason, they are high-profile and their products are popular, meaning that concentrating on them would make a bigger difference than leaning on a smaller company, and besides it's always fun to pick on the successful guy. Fourth, people are wary of corporations who ship jobs overseas to places where worker's rights are less developed and less well enforced in order to cut corners, so that subtext helps with the negative press too.

[Skgoa]

Yes, I'm aware that Pros use them, I meant for the average user who is willing to spend a thousand bucks for a laptop with an OS they're never gonna use and disk space that makes me weep. What are they getting? Besides completing their Apple collection that is.

They might like the UI/UX of OS X over Windows (even if they'll be using a web browser most of the time). They'll get a laptop that is reasonably well built (virtually all consumer laptops on the PC side are cheaply designed - you need a business-grade laptop to get some actual engineering thought). The LCDs are actually decent. Maybe they like how it looks. There are compelling reasons for buying a Mac, even with the price premium over a similarly priced Windows machine.

All of the above applies to me plus:
- iLife (e.g. GarageBand and iPhoto) and iTunes are awesome. Before you complain: iTunes on the Mac is a completely different program.
- After a short period to get used to it, I now prefer the MacBook's keyboard and trackpad
- I don't have to be as afraid of malware. Not because Macs are inherently safer (they aren't), but because they aren't targeted.
- The mere fact that it's Unix and most software written for any unixoid OS can be easily compiled. Yet I don't have to put up with the shitty parts of Linux.

[Scrib]

Yes, I'm aware that Pros use them, I meant for the average user who is willing to spend a thousand bucks for a laptop with an OS they're never gonna use and disk space that makes me weep. What are they getting? Besides completing their Apple collection that is.

They might like the UI/UX of OS X over Windows (even if they'll be using a web browser most of the time). They'll get a laptop that is reasonably well built (virtually all consumer laptops on the PC side are cheaply designed - you need a business-grade laptop to get some actual engineering thought). The LCDs are actually decent. Maybe they like how it looks. There are compelling reasons for buying a Mac, even with the price premium over a similarly priced Windows machine.

All of the above applies to me plus:
- iLife (e.g. GarageBand and iPhoto) and iTunes are awesome. Before you complain: iTunes on the Mac is a completely different program.
- After a short period to get used to it, I now prefer the MacBook's keyboard and trackpad
- I don't have to be as afraid of malware. Not because Macs are inherently safer (they aren't), but because they aren't targeted.
- The mere fact that it's Unix and most software written for any unixoid OS can be easily compiled. Yet I don't have to put up with the shitty parts of Linux.

Ah, I guess the people I know aren't representative then, because they all just use Windows (which begs the obvious question). I guess the bundled-in software is what draws people *shrug*.

[Skgoa]

Nah, they are probably very representative. Most people I know use windows and are perfectly happy with it. And why shouldn't they be?

[Scrib]

Nah, they are probably very representative. Most people I know use windows and are perfectly happy with it. And why shouldn't they be?

No I meant that all the Mac users I know use Windows on their Macs instead of OS X, which made me wonder why they bought the things in the first place.