Charge dropped against Canadian sniper.

[John]

Thinking Soilder does not help increase preformance, Sure it helps when your charging the enemy with swords or living in a cave to respress other people but not a Marine.
Unless they are a crazy religious nut and I don't want that man in my Army

So while that Russian tank battalion is rolling up on your position, you wouldn't feel the religious types (who are willing to fight to the death, because they think they are goinjg to Heaven) are as useful as the Atheists?

[Mr Bean]

So while that Russian tank battalion is rolling up on your position, you wouldn't feel the religious types (who are willing to fight to the death, because they think they are goinjg to Heaven) are as useful as the Atheists?

No because I know the Atheist is a whole lot more likley to follow my orders than the Crazy Religious nut who will charge that Tank Battalion with his underwear as a hat waving a Candy Bar

I trust the Atheist to haul out the RPG and take a few out(Note YES I'm kidding but the Point Stands Crazy Religious people don't always obey orders and on the field that = DEATH)

[Sea Skimmer]

Don't shit me. I've read enough of Wong's anti-religious pro-atheist rants to know that is his REAL objective, the complete, utter eradication of Religion from public life.

If by "public" you mean "taxpayer-funded", you are correct. You are also unable to find a shred of logical justification for your implicit claim that there is something wrong with this objective, which is not only logical and ethical but is also required by your Constitution. That's why you continue to use mockery; your inability to find an actual flaw in the argument forces you to dismiss every argument to that effect as "liberal crap" or something similar, without really addressing it.

There are no good justifications for giving chaplains rank, and the idea that they must be given special protection because they're so goddamned important to the health of the army is simply ludicrous. If I were a soldier, I'd much rather have an extra medic than a fucking chaplain with rank.

Guess we shouldn't give medical personal rank or insignia either en? There given it for the same "no good justifications" reasons as chaplains are.

You'd much rather has a medic? Guess what, Priests normally are given medical training. And since they don't appear in normal TOE's for anything but MASH units, removing them doesn’t free up a slot for another medic or rifleman, it just makes to unit slightly smaller.

My father has said he was glad to be able to talk to a priest after he had is foot reduced to pulp by shrapnel in Vietnam, and he is and has been fucking atheist.

The point of a military is to kill people and break things; political correctness does not enter the equation. The world's armed forces wouldn't both with priests if they thought they detracted from that.

[Azeron]

he romans and greeks were by and large aethists, and fought very well for a 1000 years. Its not hard to speculate the softening of Rome by the christians love and peace BS caused it fall, or at least contributed to it.

[John]

(Note YES I'm kidding but the Point Stands Crazy Religious people don't always obey orders and on the field that = DEATH)

So what you are saying is that if an entire Russian Tank Regiment appeared on your doorstep, the religious fanatics would be 'less' likely to obey your orders to hold 'til the bitter end' then the atheists would?

[XPViking]

he romans and greeks were by and large aethists, - Azeron

Proof? I suppose all those statues and temples of Zeus, Athena, Janus, etc... was just decoration?

I trust the Atheist to haul out the RPG and take a few out(Note YES I'm kidding but the Point Stands Crazy Religious people don't always obey orders and on the field that = DEATH) - Mr. Bean

I would suggest that crazy people, whether they be religious or atheist, would probably not follow orders. Are you implying that atheist soldiers follow orders better than religious soldiers?

XPViking

[Mr Bean]

So what you are saying is that if an entire Russian Tank Regiment appeared on your doorstep, the religious fanatics would be 'less' likely to obey your orders to hold 'til the bitter end' then the atheists would?

If he dies what good did he do?
If the Tatical Situation does not lead itself to Victory then with-draw marsual your forces and prepare a Counter-attack these are the basic lessons of war-fare
You seem to has some idea in your head that War-fare is the same when we where waving Swords are to today where we have nice things like Tanks, Nukes, and Bombers.

I would suggest that crazy people, whether they be religious or atheist, would probably not follow orders. Are you implying that atheist soldiers follow orders better than religious soldiers?

Yes generaly I would considering the extra determination it takes in todays Army to be an Atheist I know I can trust that person to do what I tell them and to do thier damadest to do it
Check out the Chaplan Thread for examples on what it means to be an Atheist Soilder in the Army

[Azeron]

XPViking,

They didn't beelvie in Zeus or the gods back then. It would be like saying Americans beleive in Sanata Claus. Yah we build statues of him and everything else, but do we beleive in him? no. Rome was an Aethist State, and so were most greeks. praying to the Godss was an act of patriotism, not devotion. Kind of like the way we pledge alleigence to the flag.

[Wicked Pilot]

Guess we shouldn't give medical personal rank or insignia either en? There given it for the same "no good justifications" reasons as chaplains are.

Combat Medics are highly trained at their speciality, and go through the normal basic training that all other soldiers go threw. Doctors and dentist not only go through med school and spend years there before going active duty, they also go through The Academy, ROTC, or OTS/OCS like all the other line officers.

You'd much rather has a medic? Guess what, Priests normally are given medical training.

ROTFLMAO!!!! What a load of shit that is. I'd much rather have a pararescueman tend to my wounds than some chaplain with a first aid kit.

My father has said he was glad to be able to talk to a priest after he had is foot reduced to pulp by shrapnel in Vietnam, and he is and has been fucking atheist.

So he needed someone to talk to. Almost any soldier/seaman/marine/airman can fullfill that role.

The point of a military is to kill people and break things; political correctness does not enter the equation. The world's armed forces wouldn't both with priests if they thought they detracted from that.

I'm really not understanding what you're saying here. Please clarify.

[Mr Bean]

They didn't beelvie in Zeus or the gods back then. It would be like saying Americans beleive in Sanata Claus. Yah we build statues of him and everything else, but do we beleive in him? no. Rome was an Aethist State, and so were most greeks. praying to the Godss was an act of patriotism, not devotion. Kind of like the way we pledge alleigence to the flag.

Yep we sure do pledge in Santa Claus, Thats why every year we sacrafice a human Child to Santa so he will spread his toys through-out the land

The Gods where there, they where real(to them anyway) If I was troubled about somthing I could go to Apollo to get some wisdom, Failing that check with the local orcal failing that go to anoter temple say Zeus and ask the Priest to think for me

Just because a Culture had choice does not make them any less religious than an Cutlure(Judisim) that does not.

[Azeron]

Rampant Hman sacrafice is really more of a hollywood story than anything. In these cultures, life was not as valaued as it is today. to tell you the truth I rally can;t think of human sacrafice to gods as something that occured during roman civilization. They had gladitorial games but it wasn't like it was for religious purposes. It served the interests of the state.

this is where you start to see the rise of the Secret religions, Dionisys, Mithras, Christianity....etc filling the gap.

if you look at the tombs of Rome, especially legionaires, a popular marker would have a skeleton with bread in one hand and a jug of wine in the otehr. essentially proclaiming "livce for the moment, for there is nothing after death"

[Mr Bean]

Rampant Hman sacrafice is really more of a hollywood story than anything. In these cultures, life was not as valaued as it is today. to tell you the truth I rally can;t think of human sacrafice to gods as something that occured during roman civilization. They had gladitorial games but it wasn't like it was for religious purposes. It served the interests of the state.

I never said Rampant, The fact remains there WHERE Yearly Human Sacrfices to these Gods, People where trained as priests and lived thier entire live in service of the gods and some of them where even state funded

When you can produce for me a Federualy Funded Program that teachs people how to be "Santa Priests" and prase the all Jolly I'll listen but untill then I suggest droping that example and line of thought, They where not atheists

They where just the same as Modern Christians who take the name but don't do anything

[XPViking]

They didn't beelvie in Zeus or the gods back then. It would be like saying Americans beleive in Sanata Claus. Yah we build statues of him and everything else, but do we beleive in him? no. Rome was an Aethist State, and so were most greeks. praying to the Godss was an act of patriotism, not devotion. Kind of like the way we pledge alleigence to the flag. - Azeron

I would be most interested in a source from you to prove that above claim. Are you really saying that the Romans and the Greeks didn't believe in their pantheon of gods? Praying to their gods was an act of patriotism?

XPViking

[Azeron]

Well you could start by learning Latin, and then greek, and then try translating say the aneid, the metamorphysies, most works by famous writers, julius ceaser, study anciet burial rites, tie in words like "religion" to thier original latin roots, then you would start to understand. In other words you need an education. You don;t even understand the language, how can you think youy can understadn the society? Do you honestly religion was always viewed the same way it is viewed today?

AS stated above, yes they had priests, but they were political appointments, not some deeply held religous calling. the ancient pantheon of gods and thier stories were about the forces of nature, (you would pick that up if you read the stories in the orignal language and understood the words they were using) and the nature of man. Gods are more like plot devices, like the way actors are like in movies too.

Allot of peoiple view a movie like gladiator and think thats how romans were. Couldn;t be further from the truth. ther spirtual life was so devoid of meaning and calling, that whne religions like judaism, christianity, you name it later in the empire, people flocked to in droves.

Suppose someone who watched a movie about america 2000 years from now saw us "worshipping" sanata clause and flags because a writer was trying t ocome up with charecter developement, and then all of a sudden the new "experts" seemed to think they knew something.

[oberon]

USAF, Staff Officers never have command training and capacity. It's not just chaplains. You can replace "chaplain" with "supply officer" or "medical officer" or "JAG" in your post and it would say the same thing. They may not have command, but Line Officers do, and I wouldn't ask a line officer to dedicate his or her career to law, medicine, supply, or religion. I wouldn't ask a staff officer to learn tactics, strategy, command and communication, but I would ask them to take charge of their respective departments, train their subordinates, stand watches, and know how to cope with emergencies.

[XPViking]

Well you could start by learning Latin, and then greek, and then try translating say the aneid, the metamorphysies, most works by famous writers, julius ceaser, study anciet burial rites, tie in words like "religion" to thier original latin roots, then you would start to understand. In other words you need an education. You don;t even understand the language, how can you think youy can understadn the society? Do you honestly religion was always viewed the same way it is viewed today?

AS stated above, yes they had priests, but they were political appointments, not some deeply held religous calling. the ancient pantheon of gods and thier stories were about the forces of nature, (you would pick that up if you read the stories in the orignal language and understood the words they were using) and the nature of man. Gods are more like plot devices, like the way actors are like in movies too.

Allot of peoiple view a movie like gladiator and think thats how romans were. Couldn;t be further from the truth. ther spirtual life was so devoid of meaning and calling, that whne religions like judaism, christianity, you name it later in the empire, people flocked to in droves.

Suppose someone who watched a movie about america 2000 years from now saw us "worshipping" sanata clause and flags because a writer was trying t ocome up with charecter developement, and then all of a sudden the new "experts" seemed to think they knew something. - Azeron

I'm not sure whether I'm dismayed or insulted by your last post. Although I don't speak Latin or Greek I am keenly interested in history. I assume that you are able to understand Latin and Greek, at least able to read and possibly write the languages like many university professors?I did ask you for a source for you to prove your allegations, not a sermon. Believe me, I am fully capable of drawing my own conclusions, although I'll admit it is a little harder to do when far away from a good library.

XPViking

[General Trelane (Retired)]

The original post highlights how the Canadian military nitpicks on a small negative issue thereby obscuring the big picture. Yes, it happened at Somalia. And it seems to be happening again.

What we need to realize is that these soldiers were sent into a combat mission at the command of their government (speaking on behalf of their people). Therefore, all Canadians should be thankful and proud that these brave soldiers did their jobs very well despite all the cutbacks in military spending by their government. And they did so at risk to themselves (note: four did come back in body bags).

It's high time that these soldiers are rewarded for doing what their country asked of them!

[Wicked Pilot]

USAF, Staff Officers never have command training and capacity. It's not just chaplains. You can replace "chaplain" with "supply officer" or "medical officer" or "JAG" in your post and it would say the same thing. They may not have command, but Line Officers do, and I wouldn't ask a line officer to dedicate his or her career to law, medicine, supply, or religion. I wouldn't ask a staff officer to learn tactics, strategy, command and communication, but I would ask them to take charge of their respective departments, train their subordinates, stand watches, and know how to cope with emergencies.

Uhhh... What's your point? How does this relate to the usefulness of chaplains and/or their need to be commissioned?