Guns, Guns, Guns...

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Korvan
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Post by Korvan »

Cpt_Frank wrote:
salm wrote:legal owners of guns may keep their guns until they´re broken or for 10 years ( 10 years is a made up number it would have to be about as many years as an average gun is usable). put hard penalties on illegal gun ownership.
Actually it's not that easy, if you don't use your weapon much and treat it with care it can remain in good condition for 100 years and much longer.
My Grandfather has a .22 rifle that was made in 1885. It hasn't been fired since around 1981, but with a little cleaning it could be made as good as new.

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Post by Coyote »

It is too easy to get fixated on the thing instead of the user. The gun is not a magic evil talisman that makes people do bad things.

Our country is founded on different principles and rights, and the ability to own firearms is one of them. What happens after that is multifold and part of the laws od unintended consequences:

--People who have been in prison or received extensive mental treatment are not allowed to have guns. But, due to the 'rights of privacy' it is hard to determine if a person fits these categories before allowing them to buy weapons.

--Prison terms for violent offenders are bargained down or even negated, allowing these people to return to their life of crime. The prisons are full of non-violent offenders who must become predatory to survive, and the prisons focus on warehousing and punishment rather than rehabilitation.

--Our society also preaches that you have a 'right' to 'get' whatever you want, that no one has the authority to tell you what you can and cannot do, and that you have the 'right' to have your desires gratified instantly. Taken to its extreme conclusion, some folks can read this as an endorsement to do as they please without restriction. This includes theft/crime.

--Popular entertainment shows cool people solving their problems by explosives and body count.

--The NRA, which for years has stood as a bastion of teaching gun safety, hunters education, and responsible shooting courses has become polarized in an "us vs. them" debate which I feel is partially forced upon them by the liberal left. Gun owners are demonized in the media as slavering bloodthirsty pigs and this sparks a very defensive raction which the media then labels as "paranoid". The polarization effectively shuts down effective discourse.

--It doesn't help that in several parts of the country where gun control was introduced as a "safety" measure, the lists of gun owners were later used to round up and confiscate legally owned weapons from people who had done no wrong. The result is a prevailing skepticism from gun owners about the intents of any gun control scheme.

--Law-abiding gun owners, about 60-80 million of us dependiong on who you ask, ask "why must we be punished for the irresponsible action of a few criminals?" The Left replies, "What 'punish'? You're not being 'punished', you just have to give up your guns." The Left does not see this as collective punishment, whereas the gun owners wonder why they must pay the price for a criminal that wouldn't obey the laws regardless.

Focusing on just firearms, without looking at the factors throughout society, is too simplistic. The problems are far, far more deep-rooted and simply banning one thing or another won't solve anything.
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Post by salm »

Alyeska wrote:I will already state that if such a law were passed I would be a willful criminal. There is no justification to remove guns from the hands of law abiding citizens.
well, why not? guns ARE dangerous objects which are primarily designed to kill people. yes they sure can be fun. nukes can be fun too. do we want people to run around with nukes? i don´t. and yes, cars are also dangerous objects but they´re necessary and they are not designed to kill.
Alyeska wrote: Why on earth do you want to get rid of guns? What is wrong with me having a gun for self defense, entertainment (yes, sport shooting is fun), and hunting purposes?
see above
Are you affraid of what I MIGHT do with the weapon?
yes!
So you are for punishing people for possible actions, not actions themselves?
same reason why i don´t want nations to have nukes.
Do you realize you have a better chance of dying in a car wreck then getting shot by a gun?
bad argument. cars are necessary for transportation. guns not necessary
Do you realize that you have a greater chance of getting struck by lightning, TWICE, then getting killed by legally owned fully automatic weapons?
we can´t do anything about lighning, but we can do something about guns.
btw, we´re not talking only about fully automatic guns. i don´t think that revolvers and normal pistols are fully automatic guns. aren´t normal pistols semi autmatics? and aren´t they more spread than any other gun?
What possible justification do you have that gives you the right to say your sense of security is so much more important then the rights of law abiding citizens?
i think that my security is more important than some right that people have as soon as i think that this law is crap.
Life is dangerous, get over it.
yes, let´s make it less dangerous and then get over it.
Owning guns (LEGALLY) is one of the less dangerous things in life.
owning one of them probably is one of the less dangerous things in life. the problem comes up when so many people own them. when a nation is flooded with guns, with objects designed to kill, like the us is.
and jaja, i know that canada has just as much guns as the us. but the canadians apparantly can handle this amount of guns whereas the usa can not.
Last edited by salm on 2003-03-07 06:26pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I agree that it's oversimplistic to blame everything on guns. But it is equally oversimplistic to say that a widespread proliferation of guns has no negative effect whatsoever. The sheer volume of the legitimate gun trade in America facilitates the underground gun trade, ie- the black market.

Why can felons get guns so easily? Because it's a hell of a lot easier to snatch a few fish out of a well-stocked river than a poorly stocked one without anyone noticing. Gun manufacturers have a "nudge nudge, wink wink" attitude toward the vast black market that allows criminals to circumvent whatever gun regulations already exist and pick up handguns no matter what their record is, by knowingly shipping far more guns to any given city than are being sold through legitimate channels and making no serious effort to keep their guns out of the hands of the black market.

We have the same problem with cigarettes in Canada; the manufacturers such as RJ Reynolds were literally in cahoots with smugglers and black marketeers who were taking orders in the US at wholesale prices and then smuggling them back into the country to avoid the cigarette tax (yes, we have special cigarette taxes; all of you civil libertarians and smoking advocates can scream blue murder now) as well as all provincial and federal sales taxes. The police recently nabbed them in a major investigation which implicated top executives at 4 different manufacturers.
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salm
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Post by salm »

Cpt_Frank wrote:
salm wrote:legal owners of guns may keep their guns until they´re broken or for 10 years ( 10 years is a made up number it would have to be about as many years as an average gun is usable). put hard penalties on illegal gun ownership.
Actually it's not that easy, if you don't use your weapon much and treat it with care it can remain in good condition for 100 years and much longer.
probably, yes, a perfectly treated gun will last for ever. but imagine how many people are going to treat their gun that way. if you can´t buy guns and the manufacturers are only allowed to produce a limited amount, as stated above, most guns are going to be unusable. some one else mentioned an anciant gun his father has wich would still work. ok, this gun still works, but how many other guns of the same age still work.
i don´t claim that NOBoDY will have a functioning gun by then, but the vast majority of the popultation won´t, including criminals and future criminals.
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Alyeska
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Post by Alyeska »

salm wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I will already state that if such a law were passed I would be a willful criminal. There is no justification to remove guns from the hands of law abiding citizens.
well, why not? guns ARE dangerous objects which are primarily designed to kill people. yes they sure can be fun. nukes can be fun too. do we want people to run around with nukes? i don´t. and yes, cars are also dangerous objects but they´re necessary and they are not designed to kill.
(shakes head) Not this argument. Can't you think of anything better then this argument? The original intent of the weapon is no longer a question. Under your line of reasoning all knives should be banned. Doesn't mater if your a law abiding kitchen knife owner. Guns are dangerous only when in the hands of idiots. Saying that because idiots can't handle guns, thus no one should is not an inteligent way to go about things. Using the "Its dangerous, BAN IT!" and the "It was designed to kill, BAN IT" lines of reasoning would leave us with very little. Believe it or not but much of the technological inovation that we benefit from today was spawned from military applications.
Alyeska wrote:
Why on earth do you want to get rid of guns? What is wrong with me having a gun for self defense, entertainment (yes, sport shooting is fun), and hunting purposes?
see above
Ditto
Are you affraid of what I MIGHT do with the weapon?
yes!
I'm affraid you might run me over with your car.
So you are for punishing people for possible actions, not actions themselves?
same reason why i don´t want nations to have nukes.
Flawed reasoning. You would deny things to people because of the possibility of something. You ignore the fact that programs can be brought about to sharply reduce gun crimes while not grossly infringing upon law abiding gun owners. Completely ignorance to the fact that if you remove guns from the law abiding citizens that only the criminals will have them.
Do you realize you have a better chance of dying in a car wreck then getting shot by a gun?
bad argument. cars are necessary for transportation. guns not necessary
Actually cars are not necessary forms of transportation. And interesting logic here. You are saying that something that is "mandatory" that kills more people is better then something that is freely owned and kills fewer people. Anyway, using your logic you ought not be using that computer.
Do you realize that you have a greater chance of getting struck by lightning, TWICE, then getting killed by legally owned fully automatic weapons?
we can´t do anything about lighning, but we can do something about guns.
btw, we´re not talking only about fully automatic guns. i don´t think that revolvers and normal pistols are fully automatic guns. aren´t normal pistols semi autmatics? and aren´t they more spread than any other gun?
This thread is about guns in general. You want all guns banned. I am pointint out the fact that with law abiding citizens in the US you are more likely to get killed by a force of nature then be shot by a gun. The fact that you consider any risk not worth while flies in the face of your previous arguments in support of cars.
What possible justification do you have that gives you the right to say your sense of security is so much more important then the rights of law abiding citizens?
i think that my security is more important than some right that people have as soon as i think that this law is crap.
Your security is being risked in such an insignificant way that you have a greater chance of all sorts of other shit happening to you. Are you the sort of person who says that a one if five billion chance risk is to much? Are you completely ignorant of the fact that laws can be set up and programs insitituted that would far decrease gun crimes? Do you completely ignore the fact that most crimes are commited by illegal weapons? Do you even understand that more people prevent crime with guns then are killed criminals every year?
Life is dangerous, get over it.
yes, let´s make it less dangerous and then get over it.
Better stop driving your car then.
Owning guns (LEGALLY) is one of the less dangerous things in life.
owning one of them probably is one of the less dangerous things in life. the problem comes up when so many people own them. when a nation is flooded with guns, with objects designed to kill, like the us is.
and jaja, i know that canada has just as much guns as the us. but the canadians apparantly can handle this amount of guns whereas the usa can not.
OMG. I can't believe this. You conclude that it is possible to own guns and be safe with them but refuse to change your position. Canada can do it, but rather then try and fix the problem in the US you would rather make the biggest fucking mistake ever by taking guns away from the law abiding citizens.

Do you even understand that the vast majority of crimes commited with guns are done with illegal weapons? Weapons that gun control can not stop.

You have an unrealistic ideal for the world and you would rather enforce your overly safe ideas on everyone else because you would rather sacrafice OTHER PEOPLES FREEDOMS because your to scared. If you would bother to actually educate yourself on the topic you would realize that many of your conclussions fly in the face of common sense.
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Post by Alyeska »

Darth Wong wrote:I agree that it's oversimplistic to blame everything on guns. But it is equally oversimplistic to say that a widespread proliferation of guns has no negative effect whatsoever. The sheer volume of the legitimate gun trade in America facilitates the underground gun trade, ie- the black market.

Why can felons get guns so easily? Because it's a hell of a lot easier to snatch a few fish out of a well-stocked river than a poorly stocked one without anyone noticing. Gun manufacturers have a "nudge nudge, wink wink" attitude toward the vast black market that allows criminals to circumvent whatever gun regulations already exist and pick up handguns no matter what their record is, by knowingly shipping far more guns to any given city than are being sold through legitimate channels and making no serious effort to keep their guns out of the hands of the black market.
Care to back that up? Most illegal guns in the US are from over seas shipments of hyjacked gun shipments. No money goes to the gun manufactures. Gets even better when you have all those foreign guns being sold in the US, kinda hard for their to be some sort of arrangement.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Why can felons get guns so easily? Because it's a hell of a lot easier to snatch a few fish out of a well-stocked river than a poorly stocked one without anyone noticing. Gun manufacturers have a "nudge nudge, wink wink" attitude toward the vast black market that allows criminals to circumvent whatever gun regulations already exist and pick up handguns no matter what their record is, by knowingly shipping far more guns to any given city than are being sold through legitimate channels and making no serious effort to keep their guns out of the hands of the black market.
Care to back that up?
Are you seriously suggesting that it's NOT obviously easier to conduct black marketeering under the cover of a huge legitimate market volume?
Most illegal guns in the US are from over seas shipments of hyjacked gun shipments. No money goes to the gun manufactures. Gets even better when you have all those foreign guns being sold in the US, kinda hard for their to be some sort of arrangement.
The city of Chicago seemed to take this idea seriously enough to launch a lawsuit against gun manufacturers over it, on the charge that they were selling to high-volume supposedly end-user customers who were obviously turning around and re-selling on the black market.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Alyeska wrote:Under your line of reasoning all knives should be banned. Doesn't mater if your a law abiding kitchen knife owner.
He said explicity why that reasoning doesn't hold. Knifes are necessary in our daily life, and their main goal (or sole role) in a house is not to kill, but to cut things. Therefore, they're different from a handgun, and not liable to ban.

Why do you need a handgun in a house, in the middle of a city? To be able to kill people. It's as simple as that.
Using the "Its dangerous, BAN IT!" and the "It was designed to kill, BAN IT" lines of reasoning would leave us with very little.
Back it up. What is it that you have in your house that was made and bought for the sole purpose of killing, besides a gun?
Believe it or not but much of the technological inovation that we benefit from today was spawned from military applications.
Irrelevant, as they are made and sold for other purposes than killing.
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Post by Alyeska »

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Why can felons get guns so easily? Because it's a hell of a lot easier to snatch a few fish out of a well-stocked river than a poorly stocked one without anyone noticing. Gun manufacturers have a "nudge nudge, wink wink" attitude toward the vast black market that allows criminals to circumvent whatever gun regulations already exist and pick up handguns no matter what their record is, by knowingly shipping far more guns to any given city than are being sold through legitimate channels and making no serious effort to keep their guns out of the hands of the black market.
Care to back that up?
Are you seriously suggesting that it's NOT obviously easier to conduct black marketeering under the cover of a huge legitimate market volume?
You mad the assertation it is happening. The situation might make it easier, but the situation itself does not prove that it is happening.
Most illegal guns in the US are from over seas shipments of hyjacked gun shipments. No money goes to the gun manufactures. Gets even better when you have all those foreign guns being sold in the US, kinda hard for their to be some sort of arrangement.
The city of Chicago seemed to take this idea seriously enough to launch a lawsuit against gun manufacturers over it, on the charge that they were selling to high-volume supposedly end-user customers who were obviously turning around and re-selling on the black market.
If thats the case then the Law Enforcement agencies would need to keep that in check. Anyway, the idea I have for gun control would make such practices very difficult. All guns would have to be accounted for and gun dealers would have to be acredited.
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Post by Alyeska »

Colonel Olrik wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Under your line of reasoning all knives should be banned. Doesn't mater if your a law abiding kitchen knife owner.
He said explicity why that reasoning doesn't hold. Knifes are necessary in our daily life, and their main goal (or sole role) in a house is not to kill, but to cut things. Therefore, they're different from a handgun, and not liable to ban.
And a gun is not designed to kill. It is designed to fire a projectile at high speeds. Both happen to be very effective at killing.
Why do you need a handgun in a house, in the middle of a city? To be able to kill people. It's as simple as that.
Pure assumption on your part. They can have it for self defense. 98% of home invassions in which a gun is used as self defense end up without a shot being fired. Thats pretty damned effective. BTW, thats around 2 million cases a year. They can also have it because they got sport shooting on the weekends. You are asserting that the sole purpose of guns is to kill. How many gun owners are there in the US? Somewhere between 80 to 90 million. How many gun related homicides or criminal injuries are there every year? Maybe 1 million? That alone proves that a gun is not designed to kill. I have a gun. Do I have it to kill people? No, I have it because I:
A Collect
B Go sport shooting
C Self Defense
D Will soon be a cop
E All of the Above.

Hint, the answer is E. Guns aren't designed to kill people. If your going to use that line of reasoning all cross bows, swords, bow&arrows, etc... Get the picture?
Using the "Its dangerous, BAN IT!" and the "It was designed to kill, BAN IT" lines of reasoning would leave us with very little.
Back it up. What is it that you have in your house that was made and bought for the sole purpose of killing, besides a gun?
Lets see... Nothing. I have a Glock-22 .40cal, a .22 semi-auto rifle, and a .270 rifle. I have not killed a single thing with those. I go sport shooting with them. I have them for self defense as well. Do I intend on killing the intruder? No I do not. So I have nothing with the sole purpose of killing. Your reasoning is flawed.
Believe it or not but much of the technological inovation that we benefit from today was spawned from military applications.
Irrelevant, as they are made and sold for other purposes than killing.
Are you deaf or something? Ever hear of sport shooting? Guns are not designed for the sole purpose of killing. If that were true then doesn't that mean I should have killed something with mine by now? Hell, the only things I've killed have been with BB guns (pigeons) and a handy stick (fish).

You are making the flawed assumption that the sole purpose for guns is to kill. Contrary to popular gun control belief it is entirely possible to own firearms responsibly and use them in non lethal capacities in order to entertain yourself. It is FUN to fire a gun. It is really fun to fire fully automatic weapons.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Alyeska wrote:
And a gun is not designed to kill. It is designed to fire a projectile at high speeds. Both happen to be very effective at killing.
Depends on the knife. A kitchen knife is less dangerous that a military knife, as they're designed with different roles in mind.

In the same way, a hunting shotgun is designed in a very different way than a automatic rifle. The consequences in the human body of being hit by one or another are different. I'm not against hunting (well, I am, but not in a legal sense).

Why do you need a handgun in a house, in the middle of a city? To be able to kill people. It's as simple as that.
Pure assumption on your part. They can have it for self defense. 98% of home invassions in which a gun is used as self defense end up without a shot being fired.


Obvioulsy, you must be prepared to shoot to kill, and the invader is quite aware that you're holding a deadly weapon. So, I don't see how's it an assumption on my part. Of course, you don't want to go on a killing spree across town, but you want the gun to be able to threaten to kill or kill, if necessary.
Thats pretty damned effective. BTW, thats around 2 million cases a year. They can also have it because they got sport shooting on the weekends.


Then have a hunting license and an apropriate gun. An M16 in not hunting material.
You are asserting that the sole purpose of guns is to kill. How many gun owners are there in the US? Somewhere between 80 to 90 million. How many gun related homicides or criminal injuries are there every year? Maybe 1 million? That alone proves that a gun is not designed to kill.
Fuck, I'll go with Salm on this one. How many nukes are there? thousands. How many people are nuked in a year? None. That does it, nukes are not meant to kill.

Good for the States, people are not randomly killing each other. But they do have the potential for it. In a moment of rage, it's very easy for someone to pick one of those guns and go out to kill those who are pissing him off.

Back it up. What is it that you have in your house that was made and bought for the sole purpose of killing, besides a gun?
Lets see... Nothing. I have a Glock-22 .40cal, a .22 semi-auto rifle, and a .270 rifle. I have not killed a single thing with those. I go sport shooting with them. I have them for self defense as well. Do I intend on killing the intruder? No I do not. So I have nothing with the sole purpose of killing. Your reasoning is flawed.]
Read the question again. You said that, by banning guns, many house items would have to go. I asked you to back it up, which you didn't.
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Post by salm »

Alyeska wrote:
salm wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I will already state that if such a law were passed I would be a willful criminal. There is no justification to remove guns from the hands of law abiding citizens.
well, why not? guns ARE dangerous objects which are primarily designed to kill people. yes they sure can be fun. nukes can be fun too. do we want people to run around with nukes? i don´t. and yes, cars are also dangerous objects but they´re necessary and they are not designed to kill.
(shakes head) Not this argument. Can't you think of anything better then this argument? The original intent of the weapon is no longer a question. Under your line of reasoning all knives should be banned. Doesn't mater if your a law abiding kitchen knife owner.
hey, kollege, can´t you read? guns are primarily designed to kill. knives are primarily designed to cut my food. and in case you come up with some sort of military knive primarily designed to kill, yes, ban the as well. where i come form even brass knuckles are banned and i like it.
Guns are dangerous only when in the hands of idiots. Saying that because idiots can't handle guns, thus no one should is not an inteligent way to go about things.
you don´t think there are intelligent criminals?
anyway, if they´re around in the amounts as they are in the us they are likely to get into hands of idiots.
Using the "Its dangerous, BAN IT!" and the "It was designed to kill, BAN IT" lines of reasoning would leave us with very little. Believe it or not but much of the technological inovation that we benefit from today was spawned from military applications.
so what? the military is not the people. the military is trained to handle guns and the military needs guns. the normal population would not need guns (for more on that point of view read my first post)


I'm affraid you might run me over with your car.
i think i already covered that in my last post
Flawed reasoning. You would deny things to people because of the possibility of something. You ignore the fact that programs can be brought about to sharply reduce gun crimes while not grossly infringing upon law abiding gun owners. Completely ignorance to the fact that if you remove guns from the law abiding citizens that only the criminals will have them.
has this got anything to do with the nuke example?
Do you realize you have a better chance of dying in a car wreck then getting shot by a gun?
bad argument. cars are necessary for transportation. guns not necessary
Actually cars are not necessary forms of transportation.
no, here in stuttgart they are not as necessary as in yorba linda. but they still are.
And interesting logic here. You are saying that something that is "mandatory" that kills more people is better then something that is freely owned and kills fewer people.
wtf? if something is necessary i have to use it, no matter if it´s dangerous or not. if something is not necessary ánd dangerous i should NOT use/own it since it´s a non necessary danger.
Anyway, using your logic you ought not be using that computer.
explain
Do you realize that you have a greater chance of getting struck by lightning, TWICE, then getting killed by legally owned fully automatic weapons?
we can´t do anything about lighning, but we can do something about guns.
btw, we´re not talking only about fully automatic guns. i don´t think that revolvers and normal pistols are fully automatic guns. aren´t normal pistols semi autmatics? and aren´t they more spread than any other gun?
This thread is about guns in general. You want all guns banned.
[/quote]
wrong. read my first post
I am pointint out the fact that with law abiding citizens in the US you are more likely to get killed by a force of nature then be shot by a gun.
could you back this up?

What possible justification do you have that gives you the right to say your sense of security is so much more important then the rights of law abiding citizens?
i think that my security is more important than some right that people have as soon as i think that this law is crap.
Your security is being risked in such an insignificant way that you have a greater chance of all sorts of other shit happening to you.
[/quote]
so very view people in the us get shot?
Are you the sort of person who says that a one if five billion chance risk is to much?
Are you completely ignorant of the fact that laws can be set up and programs insitituted that would far decrease gun crimes?
are you completely ignorant of the fact that i never said that? i just wonder where these programs are if they can fix all the problems.
Do you completely ignore the fact that most crimes are commited by illegal weapons? Do you even understand that more people prevent crime with guns then are killed criminals every year?
do you completely ignore my first post?
Life is dangerous, get over it.
yes, let´s make it less dangerous and then get over it.
Better stop driving your car then.
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do you completey ignore my last post
Owning guns (LEGALLY) is one of the less dangerous things in life.
owning one of them probably is one of the less dangerous things in life. the problem comes up when so many people own them. when a nation is flooded with guns, with objects designed to kill, like the us is.
and jaja, i know that canada has just as much guns as the us. but the canadians apparantly can handle this amount of guns whereas the usa can not.
OMG. I can't believe this. You conclude that it is possible to own guns and be safe with them but refuse to change your position.
[/quote]
what the hell are you talking about? of course i conclude that is possible to own guns and be safe with it because i see that i works in canada.
Do you even understand that the vast majority of crimes commited with guns are done with illegal weapons? Weapons that gun control can not stop.
do you even understand why i suggested not to ban guns now but first get rid of the incredible number of guns in the us?
You have an unrealistic ideal for the world and you would rather enforce your overly safe ideas on everyone else because you would rather sacrafice OTHER PEOPLES FREEDOMS because your to scared.
yup, i´d sacrifice the freedom to own guns.
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Post by weemadando »

I think gun ownership should definately be a priviledge, not a right.

To own a gun you should have a GOOD GODDAMN REASON.

To own a gun you should have to sit a multitude of safety, responsibility and psychological tests.

I like Australia's 3 (?) month "cooling off" period. So from the time that you complete the application process, you have 3 months wait before your license is approved.

Even then the firearms available and ammunition types are HEAVILY restricted. I mean, since when did a farmer need an M-60 to hunt roos?

Anyhow, that my 2c, I'm all for gun CONTROL, not gun BANNING.
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Post by Alyeska »

salm wrote:hey, kollege, can´t you read? guns are primarily designed to kill. knives are primarily designed to cut my food. and in case you come up with some sort of military knive primarily designed to kill, yes, ban the as well. where i come form even brass knuckles are banned and i like it.
And you have no logical reasoning behind this. Guns are not primarily designed to kill. They can kill yes, but they can do more then that. You would ban combat knives regardless of their duel uses. If it can kill but wasn't designed to kill (according to you) its legal. If its designed to kill (or hurt, you hate brass knuckles afterall) it must be made illegal regardless of its secondary purposes. There is no rational logic to that.
you don´t think there are intelligent criminals?
anyway, if they´re around in the amounts as they are in the us they are likely to get into hands of idiots.
That is why you create laws that discourage their use by criminals and encourage law abiding citizens to properly store them.
so what? the military is not the people. the military is trained to handle guns and the military needs guns. the normal population would not need guns (for more on that point of view read my first post)
You would be surprised how little you need. Furthermore if you had bothered to read what I wrote education is an important part of responsible gun ownership.


i think i already covered that in my last post
If its designed to kill according to you it must be banned but if something that isn't designed to kill according to you kills more people, its just fine. Yeah, you covered that alright.
has this got anything to do with the nuke example?
The nuke example is a flawed one.
no, here in stuttgart they are not as necessary as in yorba linda. but they still are.
As I said, cars are not necessary and thus according to your reasoning they should be banned.
wtf? if something is necessary i have to use it, no matter if it´s dangerous or not. if something is not necessary ánd dangerous i should NOT use/own it since it´s a non necessary danger.
Cars and planes are an unnecessary danger. Of course using your logic guns are a necessary defense tool that are sucessfully used in home invassion situations more then 2 million times a year with a 98% sucess ratio without a single shot being fired.
explain
Your computer is not necessary.
wrong. read my first post
And I already pointed out that there are laws in place that can drop pistol gun crimes while not infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens. I already adress your point.
could you back this up?
Lets see... Heart disease, various forms of cancer, anything out in the wild, natural disasters...

so very view people in the us get shot?
All things considered, yes. If gun crime by criminals is significantly reduced then gun violence will drop very markedly. If gun owners have improved education, gun violence will drop even further. You can have little gun violence without making guns illegal.
are you completely ignorant of the fact that i never said that? i just wonder where these programs are if they can fix all the problems.
Believe it or not, but these programs are not very popular with the bradey gun law groups and other gun control groups.
do you completely ignore my first post?
So what are you arguing about then?
do you completey ignore my last post
I do seem to recall responding to it hence your response back.
what the hell are you talking about? of course i conclude that is possible to own guns and be safe with it because i see that i works in canada.
So then why are you advocating their banning in the US? Would it not be more logical to impliment changes that makes society safer yet at the same time owning weapons remains legal?
do you even understand why i suggested not to ban guns now but first get rid of the incredible number of guns in the us?
That is impossible. The drug war is proof of that. You can not stop the importation of weapons into the black market.
yup, i´d sacrifice the freedom to own guns.
Worse, you would sacrafice my freedom to own guns.

Funny, your arguments are contradictory. You admit that it is possible to own guns and have a safe society yet you continue to advocate banning of guns.
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Post by Alyeska »

weemadando wrote:I think gun ownership should definately be a priviledge, not a right.

To own a gun you should have a GOOD GODDAMN REASON.

To own a gun you should have to sit a multitude of safety, responsibility and psychological tests.

I like Australia's 3 (?) month "cooling off" period. So from the time that you complete the application process, you have 3 months wait before your license is approved.

Even then the firearms available and ammunition types are HEAVILY restricted. I mean, since when did a farmer need an M-60 to hunt roos?

Anyhow, that my 2c, I'm all for gun CONTROL, not gun BANNING.
Since when does someone need a Ferrari 550? Because they are fun. I do not advocate making weapons such as the M-60 illegal. I advocate setting up a system in which you have to earn the privalege to own one. You have the right idea with a system designed to educate and prepare a gun owner. Such systems can be set up for varieties of weapons, time lengths can increase for certain weapons if needs be. For collectors and sport shooters the M-60 can be very fun. Do they use it for defense? Hell no. Are they going to use it to commit a crime? I highly doubt that. Its going to cost upwards of 10,000 dollars to buy an M-60 and if you can afford one of those through legal channels, you don't need it to commit a crime and your likely to do everything in your means to keep it from being taken away. That means following the law.
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Post by weemadando »

I think you can probably get an M-60 in Aus, but it would only have a 10rnd mag...
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Post by Cthulhu-chan »

From Salm's reasoning, we aught to ban martial arts as well. After all, it makes one capable of inflicting harm on (or even killing! *gasp*) another much more easily. In fact, when you get down to it, that is the rpimary purpose! And we send KIDS off to learn this sort of thing! What the hell are we thinking?! And the most insidious thing is, YOU CAN'T TELL WHO HAS SUCH TRAINING. Why, Joe Shmoe could just judo-chop me into oblivion and I would have no warning until it's too late! Lord have mercy and such!
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Post by Cap'n Hector »

I find the numbers on deaths by GSWs worldwide to be the most compelling. The US, as the only first world nation to not a realistic (and enforced) form of gun control, has the highest number of deaths.

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/research/p ... p#FINDINGS

The "If guns are outlawed..." argument is bull$hit. If all guns were illegal (not that I'm proposing it, just the situation) then the average criminal would have trouble getting guns. Organized crime would have little difficulty getting them, but they don't have trouble getting them now.

Plus, the second amendment clearly states that "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

That first bit is the big one. This gives the Army (and groups of citizens acting as a militia) the right to carry guns. Why can they carry them? So they can have a second Shays' Rebellion if necessary.

Overall, my preferred plan is universal gun training (this is a safety, this is a trigger, etc), and a strict license program similar to the one proposed early in the thread (the tiered one)
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyeska wrote:You are making the flawed assumption that the sole purpose for guns is to kill. Contrary to popular gun control belief it is entirely possible to own firearms responsibly and use them in non lethal capacities in order to entertain yourself. It is FUN to fire a gun. It is really fun to fire fully automatic weapons.
It's also fun to drive like a complete idiot at ridiculous speeds, but that doesn't mean the ability to do so should be granted to any idiot in any venue at any time.

If there were fewer guns floating around, they wouldn't be so easy to get on the black market. Outright prohibition would be excessive and unworkable, but some of the logic I'm seeing from the gun brigade is just bizarre. If guns actually REDUCE crime, then why the fuck does America have more than FIFTY times the average gun homicide rate of all these silly countries with gun control laws? I can see the point that guns do not necessarily increase crime, but the way gun people leap to the opposite extreme and say that widespread gun proliferation actually REDUCES crime (based on the same statistical mind-games that they deride when gun-control advocates use them :roll:), they're just being ridiculous. By that token, Mogadishu should be the safest fucking place on Earth.
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Post by kojikun »

well they did manage to down a US chopper. that must count for something.
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Post by Alyeska »

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:You are making the flawed assumption that the sole purpose for guns is to kill. Contrary to popular gun control belief it is entirely possible to own firearms responsibly and use them in non lethal capacities in order to entertain yourself. It is FUN to fire a gun. It is really fun to fire fully automatic weapons.
It's also fun to drive like a complete idiot at ridiculous speeds, but that doesn't mean the ability to do so should be granted to any idiot in any venue at any time.
There is a difference between driving like an idiot and shooting responsibly. You can get a fast car and find safe places to have fun. You can own guns and use them responsibly as well.
If there were fewer guns floating around, they wouldn't be so easy to get on the black market. Outright prohibition would be excessive and unworkable, but some of the logic I'm seeing from the gun brigade is just bizarre. If guns actually REDUCE crime, then why the fuck does America have more than FIFTY times the average gun homicide rate of all these silly countries with gun control laws? I can see the point that guns do not necessarily increase crime, but the way gun people leap to the opposite extreme and say that widespread gun proliferation actually REDUCES crime (based on the same statistical mind-games that they deride when gun-control advocates use them :roll:), they're just being ridiculous. By that token, Mogadishu should be the safest fucking place on Earth.
I am not denying there is a problem in the US. I think the current situation needs to be fixed. Thats why I showed my proposal. You can have guns in the hands of law abiding citizens while significantly reducing gun crime and accidental shootings. I am not supporting the current US laws. I am supporting the right to own guns within reason. Reason being logical laws designed to discourage criminals from using guns and laws that mandate proper firearm education for citizens who want guns.
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Post by E1701 »

Ok, not to sound like a cruel, sadistic, heartless sonnovabitch... which I am, but that's beside the point...

The United States has a drastically different culture (as these things go) than most other nations on Earth. Gun laws that seem appropriate in the UK, Canada, Australia, and Japan, are not going to work here, for a tremendous number of reasons.

Americans in general guard our freedom and our rights jealously. Our forbears went through far too much to give up that freedom in the name of safety. A safety which is largely illusory. The police will never take the place of one of my guns if someone should break into my house, and threaten myself, my family, and my earned possessions. Anyone who does such a thing has forfeited their rights, and lives only at my sufference. And in a place where it can take the cops ten minutes to respond to a home invasion, that's not vigilanteism, that's just prudence.

Hand in hand with such an outlook, and such real-world practicalities, lies also a massive issue of personal responsibility. If some idiot keeps a loaded gun in their nightable, then shoots themselves trying to clean it - that's their own damn fault for being stupid. A gun is a tool, and like any other, if used properly can be extraordinarily safe (there are more than 18 million licensed firearms hunters in the US, and statistically in terms of fatalities, is safer than *golf*), and if used foolishly, is deadly.


An outright ban, of the sort in use in the countries I named above, would be disasterous - even just from an ecological standpoint. Whitetail deer, in particular, thrive in suburban environments, and national herd now is estimated to be six times larger than it was in 1607. Almost 20 million of them are harvested annually by gun hunters, and yet, it is growing. Just this past season, New York changed their laws to reflect this, and instead of the one deer license and one lottery-driven doe permit, every hunter is now given *four* permits to *start* with. Eliminate that population control, and well... I sure don't want to be the poor SOB who's got to tell all those farmers just why their crops are being decimated, and all those people who have serious car accidents involving large numbers of deer crossings. Not to even mention the people who are killed more directly by them, via antlers and hooves (and yeah, it sounds silly, but the numbers of human fatalities caused that way are increasing steadily).



What we need to is completely shaft the current gun control, and replace it with something based on intelligence, and common sense, rather than politically motivated laws with a basis in pure, wallowing ignorance. Most of the laws on the books now are based solely on *appearence*. Most people, including some in this very thread, say things like "oh, hunting rifles are ok though, but no one needs an assault weapon to shoot targets."

Problem is, those people fail to realize that a great many hunting rifles are the matches of *military* sniper rifles (which should tell you something right there, if we've only had one sniper spree, and that guy couldn't shoot worth a damn). They also don't realize that automatic weapons are *already* way outside of bounds for most people. I know people who own them, and they pay attrocious amounts of money for a class III weapons license and the ammunition for those weapons. No one who has one would ever use one in a crime, despite what the movies show. Furthermore, they also don't seem to understand that there literally is no such thing as an "assault weapon"... that's a term invented by the media to describe weapons that they have no understanding of, and is meaningless. For crying out loud, one idiot in Newsday a few weeks ago claimed that there had been a shooting by someone wielding a ".380-mm caliber automatic handgun"... :roll:

More emphasis needs to be placed on punishing the criminals who misuse that right, and on education for those who are interesting in taking advantage of that right. Suffice it to say, that it is a right, and can only be overturned by another constitutional amendment, which will obviously never happen.



And someone pointed something out above that Alyeska didn't get to yet... they said that the first part of the Second Amendment, "A well-regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state" implies that only the national guard and military are covered.

Yet the case US vs Miller (1939) established that "The Second Amendment must be interpreted and applied with a view to its purpose of rendering effective the Militia."

They then went on to define the Militia: "The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. "A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline." And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."

So technically, all citizens of fighting age *are* the Militia of the United States.

That aside, to be picky with the language for a moment, in the full text of the Second Amendment, the two statements are divided by a comma - which semantically indicates two distinct thoughts. Ie, that a well regulated militai is necessary for the security of a free state, and as a consequence, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
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Post by Utsanomiko »

salm wrote:ok, this gun still works, but how many other guns of the same age still work.
Thousands. At the least.

My father in particular owns several from the 1860s through '80s, and they are in rather fine shape. And considering how much stronger and wear-resistent modern firearms are crafted, I could easilly take care of his larger collection as a whole, cleaning them when needed every now and them, and pass them on within the family for perhaps centuries. Don't underestimate their quality just because you inherently fear them.
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Post by Darth Wong »

E1701 wrote:Ok, not to sound like a cruel, sadistic, heartless sonnovabitch... which I am, but that's beside the point...

The United States has a drastically different culture (as these things go) than most other nations on Earth. Gun laws that seem appropriate in the UK, Canada, Australia, and Japan, are not going to work here, for a tremendous number of reasons.
Yes. Your society is obsessed with violence, and has vastly greater inherent inequities than most other first-world nations, thus exacerbating certain frictions that go on to cause violence. In the US, you can literally buy justice (see OJ) and destroy anyone's life at a whim if you're wealthy (see the Scientologists' practice of financially destroying vocal critics through vindictive litigation). And the practice of copyright extension and patent litigation is basically destroying opportunities for small business growth in the technology sector, thus maintaining the oligarchy of huge corporations in charge. In an environment such as this, it's not entirely surprising that certain people decide the entire system is simply so dead-set against them that they might as well say "fuck it" and become drug dealers.
Americans in general guard our freedom and our rights jealously. Our forbears went through far too much to give up that freedom in the name of safety.
Funny how people only care about the forebears' intentions when it comes to guns. Mention civil liberties, and all of a sudden the tune changes because the world is supposedly so much more dangerous today than it was in their time, and we must give up liberty for Homeland Security. Mention the wall of separation, and the horde of workmen busily trying to tear it down say "ummmm, they didn't use that exact phrase in the Constitution, so I'm going to ignore you and keep working". But when it's GUNS, all of a sudden the Founding Fathers are unquestionable gods.
An outright ban, of the sort in use in the countries I named above, would be disasterous - even just from an ecological standpoint.
Where the fuck did you hear that Canada has an outright ban? Millions of Canadian gun owners would be rather interested to hear about this ban. The sporting-goods shop 15 minutes from my house would also be interested, since their back room full of hunting rifles would therefore become illegal. Amazing how you would know about this ban and nobody here would have heard about it yet.
More emphasis needs to be placed on punishing the criminals who misuse that right, and on education for those who are interesting in taking advantage of that right. Suffice it to say, that it is a right, and can only be overturned by another constitutional amendment, which will obviously never happen.
Of course not. Because while the second amendment supposedly protects all of the other rights, those other rights are being stripped away one by one while the second amendment remains untouchable.
That aside, to be picky with the language for a moment, in the full text of the Second Amendment, the two statements are divided by a comma - which semantically indicates two distinct thoughts. Ie, that a well regulated militai is necessary for the security of a free state, and as a consequence, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Whatever.
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