SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Skgoa wrote:RS-68 might be a great engine by everbody else's standards, but it's worse than RS-25.
RS-68 was developed as a cheap expendable engine building off the failed STME program, which had as it's objective making an expendable version of the SSME. It has 80% fewer parts and requires 92% less labor than than the RS-25, costing only $14 million to procure for Delta IV.

Meanwhile....RS-25E is just a paper proposal; and Rocketdyne shut down the SSME production line years ago.

If you're going to go to all the cost of restarting the production line; you might as well go full smash and restart the F-1 production line, which means you can also do away with those evil solid rocket booster.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Skgoa wrote:But since the first four launches will use up existing engines that don't need any development or testing work
Engines that should be in museums inside their Shuttle Orbiters. But hey, lets throw away the most complex engine ever designed, with a rated lifetime of what 50 missions to save a few millions of development costs.
and after that the significantly cheaper RS-25Es will be used, it makes sense to go with SSMEs.
No it doesn't. You have to once again do integration and testing work for the new expendable SSME, since all your data was for the shuttle engines.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by Skgoa »

MKSheppard wrote:
Skgoa wrote:RS-68 might be a great engine by everbody else's standards, but it's worse than RS-25.
RS-68 was developed as a cheap expendable engine building off the failed STME program, which had as it's objective making an expendable version of the SSME. It has 80% fewer parts and requires 92% less labor than than the RS-25, costing only $14 million to procure for Delta IV.
So you can read wikipedia. You could have read the rest of the text and corrected me on the cost of the RS-68B, though. As it turns out, that version is projected to cost $20 million. And you didn't adress the performance issues.

MKSheppard wrote:Meanwhile....RS-25E is just a paper proposal; and Rocketdyne shut down the SSME production line years ago.
What qualities are ascribed to RS-25E is in flux ATM, since there are several proposed versions. I am talking about the "lets just build it with the automated equipment instead of manually and not do as many inspections" version, since the laws of physics don't leave that much room to increase performance. (If you don't intend to launch people, you can even simply not install most of the health monitoring systems.) Combined with bigger orders, that would result in a massive price drop. Also, Rocketdyne can produce RS-25, RS-68 and J-2 on the same production line, now.

MKSheppard wrote:If you're going to go to all the cost of restarting the production line; you might as well go full smash and restart the F-1 production line, which means you can also do away with those evil solid rocket booster.
Are we going to have that argument again? F-1 means RP-1, since it's an RP-1 engine. RP-1 means low Isp, since RP-1 engines can't reach the same Isp as LH engines can. Low Isp means early stage separation, since we want to get a better Isp engine ASAP. Early separation means more stages. (At least three in this case.) More stages is a Bad Thing.

MKSheppard wrote:
Skgoa wrote:But since the first four launches will use up existing engines that don't need any development or testing work
Engines that should be in museums inside their Shuttle Orbiters. But hey, lets throw away the most complex engine ever designed, with a rated lifetime of what 50 missions to save a few millions of development costs.
Actually, I agree with you on that. It's a shame, but it's the most logical thing to do.. since you guys don't want to cough up the money NASA needs to do it properly. :P

MKSheppard wrote:
and after that the significantly cheaper RS-25Es will be used, it makes sense to go with SSMEs.
No it doesn't. You have to once again do integration and testing work for the new expendable SSME, since all your data was for the shuttle engines.
That depends entirely on what changes are made. In the past, upgrading to a newer version of an engine has not been as difficult as using an entirely new engine.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Skgoa wrote:My point is that RS-68 as it exists right now has a significantly worse Thrust-to-Weight ratio and specific impulse compared to the engine NASA has been using for 30 years. RS-25 is the better choice from a performance POV, that's a simple fact. I agree with you that RS-68 might be a more economical choice compared to new RS-25Ds. But since the first four launches will use up existing engines that don't need any development or testing work, and after that the significantly cheaper RS-25Es will be used, it makes sense to go with SSMEs. Even if we accept that RS-68B will reach the performance of RS-25E, saving only $11 million per engine (lets be generous and say $50 million per launch) is not enough to justify the additional cost and risk of having to develop it.
Why do we care about matching RS-25? That engine was designed to be absolutely bleeding edge and has requirements totally unaligned with a big rocket.
Skgoa wrote:So you can read wikipedia. You could have read the rest of the text and corrected me on the cost of the RS-68B, though. As it turns out, that version is projected to cost $20 million. And you didn't adress the performance issues.
As an aside, Shep tends to use sources far better than Wikipedia.
Are we going to have that argument again? F-1 means RP-1, since it's an RP-1 engine. RP-1 means low Isp, since RP-1 engines can't reach the same Isp as LH engines can. Low Isp means early stage separation, since we want to get a better Isp engine ASAP. Early separation means more stages. (At least three in this case.) More stages is a Bad Thing.
Going LH2 means the need for huge boosters on the side, though, because they don't have enough thrust! And did you see Shep's post earlier with the RP-1 designs? They aren't as stage-heavy as Saturn was. Why do we care so much about isp for a lower stage?
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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phongn wrote:
Skgoa wrote:My point is that RS-68 as it exists right now has a significantly worse Thrust-to-Weight ratio and specific impulse compared to the engine NASA has been using for 30 years. RS-25 is the better choice from a performance POV, that's a simple fact. I agree with you that RS-68 might be a more economical choice compared to new RS-25Ds. But since the first four launches will use up existing engines that don't need any development or testing work, and after that the significantly cheaper RS-25Es will be used, it makes sense to go with SSMEs. Even if we accept that RS-68B will reach the performance of RS-25E, saving only $11 million per engine (lets be generous and say $50 million per launch) is not enough to justify the additional cost and risk of having to develop it.
Why do we care about matching RS-25? That engine was designed to be absolutely bleeding edge and has requirements totally unaligned with a big rocket.
We care about efficiency. Higher T/W ratio and higher Isp means we take less non-payload mass up. This increases the payload mass-fraction of the launch vehicle - and in the end, payload is the one metric we care about most. RS-68 is losing by a staggering 42 seconds of Isp. That adds up over the duration of the burn.
And RS-25 was bleeding edge 30 years ago*, nowaday it's well understood technology that can be produced much cheaper than before.

*Actually, while extremely high-tech, it was still a rather conservative design.

phongn wrote:
Are we going to have that argument again? F-1 means RP-1, since it's an RP-1 engine. RP-1 means low Isp, since RP-1 engines can't reach the same Isp as LH engines can. Low Isp means early stage separation, since we want to get a better Isp engine ASAP. Early separation means more stages. (At least three in this case.) More stages is a Bad Thing.
Going LH2 means the need for huge boosters on the side, though, because they don't have enough thrust! And did you see Shep's post earlier with the RP-1 designs? They aren't as stage-heavy as Saturn was. Why do we care so much about isp for a lower stage?
Lets see:
- Boosters have failed exactly once, when they were used in weather conditions they were not build for and that the engineers who designed them said were dangerous.
- You want your main engines ignited on the ground. (I.e. launch can be aborted if they don't function as expected and ignition equipment can be left on the ground.)
- Every staging event adds a massive amount of complexity and risk. Most rocket failures happen during staging.
- We only need high thrust until we are out of the thickest layers of the athmosphere and have gone horizontal. Thats the first two minutes of a ten minute ascent.

The logical conclusion is going with a big high Isp core stage and adding high T/W boosters to it. Look at Ariane 5, look at Energia, look at Ares V, look at Delta IV. Notice anything?

Now, I f you don't like solid rockets, there is no technical reason NASA couldn't go with an RP-1 based booster. (Blame ATK and the Senate. ;) )
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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I feel I have to state something at this point: If it were up to me and I had all the time and money I wanted, I would not use RS-25. I would develop RS-68B into something that has at leas 430s of Isp and an RP-1 engine for liquid boosters. I would also design a 100% new core stage with an at least 10m payload fairing. But NASA has painted itself into a corner and Congress doesn't provide the funding for anything more than recycling Shuttle technology. It's pretty telling when NASA has now turned around 180° and is asking ESA to develop ATV into Orion's Service Module.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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The reason the S-IVB provided the last 10% (or less) of orbital velocity to place the TLI stack into orbit was because if you had the S-II cut off at a precise orbital velocity, a lot of propellant would have been wasted -- so it was seen as more efficient to let the S-II burn as long as was possible to propellant depletion to provide as much energy as possible, and then provide final specific orbital speed with the restartable S-IVB.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Number Theoretic wrote:Actually, SpaceX might be able to provide a heavy lift launch vehicle, if there is demand for it and they get the time to develop suitable engines. According to Wikipedia, their Falcon XX concept vehicle could be able to lift 140 tons into LEO. The article even speculates about a possible extension to that, "Falcon XX Heavy" with a whopping 460 tons payload.
I'd like to know who will pay the ride on those things, but anyway, I will be happy enough to see falcon heavy come online (they are actually working on it and it is a derivative of the Falcon 9).

50 tons to LEO at 80-125 miillion dollars per launch is NOT something to pass on (comparison Proton or Atlas 20ish tons payload and 85 or 300 millions respectively).

With in-space assembly you get a Saturn's worth of stuff with two launches. And a total cost of say 300 millions (an order of magnitude less of what Saturn V costed for every launch).

Then again, I'm not holding my breath for it, it's a very optimistic claim.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Even if Falcon Heavy ends up costing 150 - 200 million it would still be cheaper than anything else. With three Falcon Heavy launces it should be possible to assamble fairly large and capable manned NEO mission or even a mission to Phobos or Deimos. Limiting factor may be the fairing diameter because Falcon core is only ~3,5 m diameter and I have no idea how much oversized fairing could be put on it before it screws up aerodynamics.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Well, I for one will be more comfortable about Falcon Heavy working after I know Falcon 9 works reliably.

Also there's the problem of man-rating; somewhere in there there has to be a rocket capable of putting the crews into orbit, or most of the things we'd actually want heavy lift for become very difficult.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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You don't need heavy lift to launch a crew in space. Don't you already have man-rated rockets fit for this task in your inventory of matured and tested designs which you still have an assembly line for ?

Anyway, Ariane 5 is man-rated, as far as I know (something to do with the ancient project of an European Mini-Shuttle). So the ESA and NASA could maybe develop a "quick-and-dirty" interim capsule compatible with it to help you us crew the ISS while freeing you us from your dependence on the Russians ?
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Ariane 5 was meant to be the first 1.5 stages to get Hermes into LEO, that much is true. But in its current form it's not fit for launching humans. We are getting a new upper stage engine and a couple of other modifications, though. It's difficult to say whether our efforts to develop a manned vehicle will produce anything before Ariane 5 is retired.


Sky Captain wrote:Even if Falcon Heavy ends up costing 150 - 200 million it would still be cheaper than anything else.
Well, no. If Falcon Heavy ends up with a payload of less than 50 mT to LEO (all to possible) or costs more than $200 million per launch, it would end up costing more than additional Shuttle launches for the same payload would have cost. And Proton would beat it, too.

Sky Captain wrote:With three Falcon Heavy launces it should be possible to assamble fairly large and capable manned NEO mission or even a mission to Phobos or Deimos. Limiting factor may be the fairing diameter because Falcon core is only ~3,5 m diameter and I have no idea how much oversized fairing could be put on it before it screws up aerodynamics.
It's not just aerodynamics; it's just not practical to go beyond what a rocket was designed for, without a major redesign of its structure. And we know that Orion's service module will inherit a lot from a vehicle that was launched on Ariane 5 - a rocket with a 5.45m fairing.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Rabid wrote:You don't need heavy lift to launch a crew in space. Don't you already have man-rated rockets fit for this task in your inventory of matured and tested designs which you still have an assembly line for ?
No. Remember that in the 70s the US decided that all space launches, commercial and military, manned mission or satellite payload, would be performed by the Space Shuttle. There were no other man-rated rockets developed or continued through the 80s or 90s; the last such rocket was the Saturn IB, used in the early-mid 70s, and the production lines for that rocket are long since gone. The US eventually backed off on having everything flown on Space Shuttle and restarted development of expendable rockets, but none man-rated.

Ares I was supposed to be the next man-rated US rocket, but it was cancelled in favor of... this thread's OP? I can't fully remember, I'm not sure what exactly the timeline has been for the past few years.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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I hate necroing an old thread; but I'd rather have just one contiguous NASA thread, rather than chasing fifty billion threads over the place -- it seems that right now the new reference configuration for SLS is using four RS-25 SSMEs on the core stage; and that NASA will compete the core stage engines past the intial Block I (spare shuttle SSME) launches.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by Uraniun235 »

Because I always wind up forgetting/falling behind on where SLS is at, I decided to look it up on Wikipedia, and found this bit:
Program costs

During the joint Senate-NASA presentation in September 2011, it was stated that the SLS program has a projected development cost of $18 billion through 2017, with $10B for the SLS rocket, $6B for the Orion Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle and $2B for upgrades to the launch pad and other facilities at Kennedy Space Center. An unofficial NASA document estimates the cost of the program through 2025 will total at least $41B for four 70 metric ton launches (1 unmanned in 2017, 3 manned starting in 2021), and that the 130 metric ton version should not be ready earlier than 2030.
$41 billion for four launches that can each throw a maximum 70 tons into LEO?


Is there even a planned manned mission or is it still "well I guess it could go to an asteroid, maybe, we'll see what we want to do when we finish the rocket"?
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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Uraniun235 wrote:$41 billion
Good grace - that's ridiculous. Just give that budget to Rutan or FalconX and tell them to get going. We'd have a moon colony by 2030...
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by phongn »

LaCroix wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:$41 billion
Good grace - that's ridiculous. Just give that budget to Rutan or FalconX and tell them to get going. We'd have a moon colony by 2030...
No.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by PeZook »

Total cost of the entire Saturn V run was 46.5 billion, so it's actually very similar to that, except with less launches planned for the 41 billion cost but that's typical with low-level funding over a long period, since fixed costs eat up larger portions of the total budget.

So no, it's not ridiculous at all. It's simply the kind of money that you need to pay for developing a rocket that huge, and no free market private space magic is going to go around that.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by Skgoa »

Yeah, it's really weird that these politicians either can not or don't want to see that they end up wasting huge sums of money by doing a decades-long megaproject with the parking break on. But as long as it shaves a couple of millions of the budget each year...
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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In other news, NASA releases a video narrated by Peter Cullen which makes me want to give all my money to the program. Any program, as long as it's headed for SPACE.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by MKSheppard »

Uraniun235 wrote:$41 billion for four launches that can each throw a maximum 70 tons into LEO?
Actually, let's break this out.

You need $6 Billion for the Orion CSM, to develop a flight qualified beyond LEO spacecraft. They're planning to fly an unmanned Orion Command Module in 2014 on a Delta IV Heavy to prove out it's life support and heat shield.

$2 Billion to upgrade LC39 to a clean pad, and clean up 30 years of constantly getting blasted by thousands of tonnes of hydrochloric acid each time the space shuttle launched.

Both of these specific items would be going ahead irregardless of whether SLS was Saturn V Reborn or just Space Shuttle Parts Recycled.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by MKSheppard »

Pratt and Whitney (aka United Technologies aka UTC) keeps investigating selling Rocketdyne.

They wouldn't be doing that route of investigation if they were bullish about SLS' future prospects; because P&W Rocketdyne would be making the RS-25E expendable SSME, and the J-2X.

Speaking of the J-2X, apparently the plan is to finish test firing it this year or so, and then....sit on it for like four years, so that all the monies can go to making that expendable SSME.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

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FYI, Dynetics is the System Integrator for MOAB, and also for StratoLaunch, that huge air dropped Falcon Five that Paul G. Allen is heading up.

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WASHINGTON -- Dynetics and Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne announced Wednesday they are teaming up to resurrect the Saturn 5 rocket's mighty F-1 engine to power NASA's planned heavy-lift launch vehicle, saying the Apollo-era engine will offer significantly more performance than solid-fueled boosters currently under development.

"The ability to come back and offer NASA a resurrection of probably one of the most venerated successful engines ever, the F-1, is very neat," said Steve Cook, director of space technologies at Dynetics Inc. "The cool factor on this is very high."

NASA plans to award $200 million to multiple companies later this year for 30 months of design and risk reduction work on advanced booster concepts for the agency's Space Launch System, a powerful heavy-lifting rocket designed to dispatch astronaut crews to deep space destinations, including asteroids, Mars, and the moon.

The 30-month performance period is expected to begin Oct. 1 and run through early 2015. The first two flights of the Space Launch System will be boosted off the launch pad by five-segment solid rocket motors built by ATK and derived from the space shuttle program.

NASA hopes a bigger booster will be ready by the third SLS flight in the early 2020s.

Dynetics of Huntsville, Ala., is leading the contractor team proposing the F-1 engine design. Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne is the bid's propulsion partner and engine builder.

Cook, NASA's former manager of the scrapped Ares rocket program, said each of the two Dynetics boosters on an SLS mission would be propelled by a pair of kerosene-fueled F-1 engines.

"Each of those engines can get up to 1.8 million pounds of thrust," Cook said in an interview Wednesday. "This booster is a very simple, very standard booster. It's 18 feet in diameter. It uses the same attach points as the current five-segment solid rocket booster."

Pratt & Whitney is the prime contractor for the Space Launch System's core propulsion system, initially comprised of up to four hydrogen-fueled RS-25D/E engines. The cryogenic upper stage's J-2X engine, another redesigned engine from the Apollo moon program, is under development by NASA and Pratt & Whitney for SLS flights beginning in the 2020s.

The first two SLS missions, scheduled for 2017 and 2021, will be powered by an interim cryogenic upper stage, a four-engine core, and twin five-segment solid rocket boosters. The 2021 mission, planned to loop around the moon, will be the mammoth rocket's first crewed launch.

The earliest version of the Space Launch System will stand 30 stories tall and lift at least 70 metric tons, or 154,000 pounds, into low Earth orbit.

Subsequent long-duration missions to further destinations, such as asteroids or Mars, will require a more robust version of the Space Launch System using the J-2X engine and advanced boosters.

Along with the Dynetics and Pratt & Whitney team, ATK and other industrial contractors also submitted proposals for the advanced booster risk reduction awards.

"We're essentially flying out assets we have while we try to evolve to a more affordable and capable booster for the future," said Todd May, NASA's Space Launch System program manager, in an interview in February.

NASA plans a design and development contract for the advanced booster after the risk reduction phase ends in 2015.

Cook said the F-1 engine-powered advanced booster will provide about 20 metric tons, or 44,000 pounds, more lift capacity into low Earth orbit over the heavy-lift launcher's baseline solid rocket boosters.

"We offer a domestic booster design that takes advantage of the flight-proven Apollo-Saturn F-1, still the most powerful U.S. liquid rocket engine ever flown," said Ron Ramos, Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne's vice president for exploration and missile defense. "PWR is the only company to have returned a Saturn-era engine, the J-2X, to production. We bring unique lessons to the advanced booster cost and performance trades."

Five F-1 engines flew on the first stage of each Saturn 5 rocket's upper stage. The Saturn 5 flew 13 times, launching astronauts to the moon and lofting NASA's Skylab space station into Earth orbit.

"That makes it one of the most reliable engines ever," Cook said. "You don't want to tinker with a design that you know works and has been successful."

Cook said the F-1 engine activities planned for the next 30 months, assuming Dynetics wins an award from NASA, include full-scale systems demonstrations and some hotfire testing.

The amount of progress depends on the level of funding provided by NASA, Cook said, adding the contractor team is already refurbishing some equipment with private capital.

"The risks associated with that [engine] were retired 40 years ago," Cook said. "What that allowed us to do was to focus our modifications and our changes around manufacturability, affordability and reliability. You take that engine and incorporate the lessons learned over the last 40 years of human, commercial and [military] spaceflight in propulsion systems, we think we can bring a very affordable package to the game. Largely, the design we're bringing is very similar or the same, and we've focused on manufacturability, bringing new processes and techniques that have been proven out."

"Cost wasn't a factor in the '60s," Cook said. "Cost is a huge factor today."

Link 2

Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne and Dynetics have announced a resurrected F-1 engine as their entry into the advanced booster engineering demonstration and/or risk reduction (ABEDRR) programme, a precursor to selecting advanced boosters for the Space Launch System (SLS).

The liquid oxygen/kerosene-burning, gas-generator cycle engine produces more than 6,600kN (1.5 million lb) of thrust. Five such engines comprised the first stage of the Saturn V rocket, which launched the Apollo series of lunar exploration missions.

Development could cost half that of a clean-sheet booster design, says John Vilja, vice president of strategy at Rocketdyne. "Now that we have a design that has actually been proven, it's easier to just copy that."

Resurrection of the F-1, the most powerful engine built by a United States company (only the Russian RD-170 is slightly more powerful) has long been a topic of wistful discussion amongst rocketry circles.

"Every rocket designer that's ever come to us says, 'Boy, I wish we had an F-1,' because it solves a lot of problems," says John Vilja, vice president of strategy at Rocketdyne. "It's big thrust in a small space - relatively small."

The F-1 proposal will be submitted as a competitor to a NASA risk reduction contract. Selections, expected in October 2012, will be awarded to several companies. After further development and experimentation, NASA will down-select to a single booster for full-scale development.

Testing in the first phase will involve assembling a power pack, consisting of a complete gas generator and turbopump, for testing. Initially, testing may use leftover hardware from the F-1A programme, a 8,000kN-thrust variant of the engine that was built but never flown. The equipment is now around 40 years old.

"We have three of those that we're tearing apart right now, looking to see where we had galvanic corrosion, figuring out where we might have some things we want to change," says Vilja.

Rocketdyne believes a working powerpack can be assembled and tested by 2015, with additional parts under construction. If NASA selects the F-1 to become the SLS booster, The company believes it can assemble and test a full engine by 2017, and certify it for flight in 2020, in advance of SLS's planned 2021 flight.

The company took the same approach when it was tapped to build the SLS upper stage, the J-2X that is currently undergoing testing. The J-2X is an updated version of the J-2, which flew as the Saturn V's upper stage.

Competitors include Aerojet with the LOX/RP-1 AJ-1000, a significantly scaled-up version of its AJ-26 engine, and ATK's advanced solid rocket boosters.

Link 3

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado - Dynetics and Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne have formed a long-term partnership to compete for the NASA Space Launch System Advanced Booster Engineering Demonstration and/or Risk Reduction procurement contract, the two companies said today.

Under the agreement, which was announced at the National Space Symposium, Huntsville-based Dynetics and Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne are exclusive partners in using the Saturn V F-1 rocket engine technology.

"The SLS booster procurement requires a team that can balance affordability, innovation and experience throughout the life cycle - from development to production and operations," said Steve Cook, Dynetics director of space technologies. "Dynetics and PWR have formed such a team, offering a wide-ranging set of risk-reduction activities and demonstrations that enable a superior booster solution."

Leading the SLS team as project manager is Kimberly Doering, a 28-year aerospace veteran with 13 years' experience at NASA, including serving as deputy program manager of the Space Shuttle program. Doering most recently served as vice president of United Space Alliance's corporate business development and strategic planning, and vice president of Huntsville operations.

"We offer a domestic booster design that takes advantage of the flight-proven Apollo-Saturn F-1, still the most powerful U.S. liquid rocket engine ever flown," said Ron Ramos, Rocketdyne's vice president for Exploration and Missile Defense. "PWR is the only company to have returned a Saturn-era engine, the J-2X, to production. We bring unique lessons to the Advanced Booster cost and performance trades."

Link 4

UTC Closes In On PWR Sale
Apr 19, 2012
By Guy Norris

COLORADO SPRINGS — United Technologies Corp. (UTC) is expected to complete the sale of its Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne rocket propulsion arm within the next two weeks as part of efforts to raise $3 billion to help finance its acquisition of Goodrich Corp.

Although the rocket maker declines to comment, Aviation Week understands final paperwork is in the process of being signed for the company’s sale to a private investment group. UTC originally put Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne up for sale in 2011, and revived its offer in March following shareholder approval for the takeover of Goodrich on March 13.

Fellow U.S. rocket manufacturers Alliant Techsystems (ATK) and GenCorp’s Aerojet were originally thought to be the most likely potential bidders for PWR, which UTC bought from Boeing for $700 million in 2005. However, sources at the 28th National Space Symposium being held here tell Aviation Week that unnamed investors are in the process of clinching the deal.

The group believed to be most strongly linked to the acquisition is thought to involve Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, former Scaled Composites CEO Burt Rutan and former NASA administrator Mike Griffin. The three are behind Stratolaunch Systems, the company founded in late 2011 to develop a next-generation, mobile, airborne launch system based on a hybrid aircraft formed from two Boeing 747s (Aerospace DAILY, Dec. 14). Another board member of Stratolaunch is Dave King, vice president of Dynetics, the Huntsville, Ala.-based company that will be responsible for integration of the launch vehicle and carrier aircraft systems.

Coincidently, Dynetics and PWR announced at the National Space Symposium a long-term partnership to compete for the NASA Space Launch System (SLS) Advanced Booster Engineering Demonstration and/or Risk Reduction (ABEDRR) procurement. Under this agreement, Dynetics and PWR will have exclusive rights to the use of the Saturn V F-1 rocket engine technology.

Sources close to the negotiations say that PWR does not require a partnership with an established propulsion company to fulfill its broader strategic objectives, and that work is going on to “disentangle” its operations from those of UTC. The challenge is hardest in West Palm Beach, Fla., where the rocket maker shares production and test facilities with those of main engine maker Pratt & Whitney, and helicopter manufacturer Sikorsky. PWR is understood to be exploring separate entrances to the swampland site as part of the process.

In California, PWR has been busy consolidating its Canoga Park sites close to Los Angeles as part of drastic cost-cutting moves in the wake of the retirement of the space shuttle in 2011. “Between now and 2013 we’ll cut the amount of fixed space in half, [where] the lion’s share of square footage is in California. We’ll be going from 2.1 million square feet to under 1 million square feet,” says PWR President Jim Maser.

----------------------

My own personal opinion? It'll come down to F-1A versus ATK's advanced SRB; because let's be honest; Aerojet has never once built a complete NK-33 engine -- all they've done is refurbish old Soviet engines with modern electronics and gimbal systems and change the nameplate to read AJ-26. Now they want to build a significantly upscaled version of the NK-33? Doesn't pass my technology readiness level smell test.

F-1A already has significant work done on it in the 1990s for George H.W. Bush's Space Exploration Initative (SEI) regarding a restart.

In the 1990s, Rocketdyne estimated that a F-1A Restart program would cost $315 million in FY92 dollars in non-recurring costs to restart production and re-certify the engine. Recurring costs would have been $1,080 million in FY92 dollars for 72 engines at an average cost of $15m FY92 dollars per engine, with deliveries over a five year period. Deliveries would have commenced four years after authority to proceed, with a peak delivery rate of 16 engines per year.

Link to 1994 F-1A Restart Costing

Basically, they worked out in 1994 what had to be replaced -- such as Beryllium and Cadmium alloys, which were no longer allowable under OSHA regulations along with Abestos, and stuff that just plain got obsolete, like Inconel X-750 and Hastelloy C.

The MK10A turbopump of the F-1A used TENS 50 aluminum in a number of castings. TENS 50 has beryllium at a level over 1994 OSHA standards. It would be replaced with A356 Aluminum or A357 Aluminum which uses beryllium in levels acceptable to OSHA.

This form of conversion was actually done in real life when Rocketdyne restarted Atlas and Delta engine production -- they had to convert the turbopumps/impellers/volutes from TENS 50 to A356/A357.

The abestos thermal insulation blanket used on the Apollo Era F-1s would simply be replaced with the same type of thermal blanket developed for the RS-27 engine restart.

Other changes such as producibility changes would have been implemented -- these were also done during the Atlas/Delta engine restart programs.

One such producibility enhancement would have been the LOX Dome. The original Apollo-Era design had sixty different details such as shell segments, pins, flanges, bosses, spacers, brackets, etc which all had to be individually machined and/or formed; then welded together -- all of which required a lot of joint preparation, fit up work, welding, inspection and rework as necessary.

Under the F-1A restart, the LOX Dome would have been changed to a single piece casting, eliminating all that.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by Skgoa »

I still doubt that NASA will go with anything but what ATK offers, no matter what THAT is as long as it barely manages to fit the specs. Simply due to politics. But if the F1-boosters get build, that would be awesome.
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Re: SLS evolves more towards ARES V...

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Potentially awesome, and as the people say it's a reliable engine and they know all the problems with it from the sixties.

It would be incredible to see the F-1A's fly.
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