Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs UFP/ A-Q Dominion

[Gunhead]

Well I didn't really time the episode and since we aren't given an exact time frame it would be a bit pointless. I could dig up other examples, but at the end of the day, the nature of LoGH sensors is pretty much a matter of interpretation.
While ST combat might fit the universe, I still think they're doing it wrong. Some form of formation fighting should be order of the day. Specially since they cannot reliably score one shot kills against opponents as it seems. Meh.. I might be just biased. I also think almost all ST ships are fucking ugly too. Yes this includes every and all versions of the Enterprise, not including the one from "Enterprise" which was ok and about the best thing in the whole series.

-Gunhead

[Vympel]

IMO when you look at ST fleet battles, the similarity to LOGH is pretty striking. ST ships eschew all their advantages in favor of mass fixed formations for no readily apparent reason (in LOGH its apparent, because otherwise they don't behave like Trek ships do).

Maybe they hurl large masses at each other and that explains why their cannons run out of ammo.

Its confirmed in the series that ship's beam cannons run off the ship's main power supply - in addition to the amount of times they refer to "energy and missiles" (using the actual english words) beginning to run out in battle, in "The Retriever" Gaiden Season 2 arc Reinhard's cruiser uses up the majority of its energy to fire off the directional Seffle particle generator prototype - doing so gives them only enough energy for one shot of their main cannons (defined as all six forward gun ports).

Leads into part 3

I have a theory about how they control their fire. They are really firing in a controlled pattern against the presumed position the enemy will hold, which they can predict to some degree and see the speed and direction the enemy is moving at. They in fact dodge incoming fire, but they don't can't really tell who is firing at them either, due to the fuckton of fire spewed both directions and the presence of ECM. This combined with their ability to fire both pulses and continuous beams allows them to "whip" across a zone or fire rapid pulses at various target points makes LoGH combat a kind of a cat & mouse game, where both sides are trying to avoid incoming fire while trying to place their fire into an are most likely occupied by the enemy ship taking into distance and relative speed. This would also make showing your flank to the enemy a bad proposition since your max acceleration is going forward which the enemy knows too and your target area is a lot bigger making it more likely you get hit by the enemy barrage.

You can see what could be set evasive maneuvers in several battles in the series. One that sticks out is this one:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXLOmUfz8x0#t=5m53s

Note the battleship lines moving in unison.

[Simon_Jester]

That "theory" strikes me as the only common-sense model for combat between ships armed with light speed weapons at light-second or longer combat ranges... at least, assuming that the ships are capable of softish-SF accelerations.

[Gunhead]

That "theory" strikes me as the only common-sense model for combat between ships armed with light speed weapons at light-second or longer combat ranges... at least, assuming that the ships are capable of softish-SF accelerations.

I call it a theory since it doesn't really fit every single instance we see in the series, but in the context of the series it makes sense. No denying that it probably would be a template for any SF series with FTL sensors but STL weaponry or light speed weapons. I think that's one of the appeals of the LoGH series, you can see why they fight the way they do and it to a certain extent maintains internal consistency.

-Gunhead

[Batman]

As an aside, I just checked the Wiki in Vympel's link (sounds like an interesting universe BTW), and just how reliable is the firepower number for the Geiersburg Fortress main weapon? 740 million MW would put it somewhere between 170 times and one fortieth that of Federation ship phasers and even the former doesn't sound all that impressive for something that size by Trek standards (~1800 times if we use the 400GW figure from 'Survivors', which was a particle weapon, while the Vulture's Claw is nominally an EM weapon). If their ships can still stand their ground against Trek I can only conclude their weapons technology doesn't scale very well

[Simon_Jester]

As an aside, I just checked the Wiki in Vympel's link (sounds like an interesting universe BTW), and just how reliable is the firepower number for the Geiersburg Fortress main weapon? 740 million MW would put it somewhere between 170 times and one fortieth that of Federation ship phasers and even the former doesn't sound all that impressive for something that size by Trek standards (~1800 times if we use the 400GW figure from 'Survivors', which was a particle weapon, while the Vulture's Claw is nominally an EM weapon). If their ships can still stand their ground against Trek I can only conclude their weapons technology doesn't scale very well

The number is 'stated in canon,' but from a physics point of view it's so ridiculous that it can be dismissed out of hand. The beam's visible effects on the ships it strikes are totally out of line with that 740 TW power unless they're building the ships out of hydrogen ice or something similarly ridiculous.

So I advocate the ignoring the number. Rationalize it however you want, but it's absurdity to take the number at face value.

[Batman]

That very absurdity was what made me bring up the issue to begin with
To elaborate, the Iserlohn Fortress, which is not quite 3 times the size of Geiersburg, can allegedly eradicate entire formations with its main weapon, which is kinda hard to do against Trek-level resilience ships with firepower that 'low' (not to mention the corresponding weapon has I suspect a clearly visible discharge, which a true X-ray weapon would, well, not?)

[Vympel]

Connor has an interesting theory about it, that the 740 TW is part of a "fusion flamethrower" effect so that the figure is only part of the story. In any event, I think at the very least what the relevant quote doesn't say is about as important as what it does - when you see Iserlohn's Thor Hammer (slighly more powerful than the Vulture's Claw) fire, the weapon affects a very wide target area, which is what makes it such an effective weapon and why it can take out thousands of ships per shot (depending on fleet formation) - for all we know, its 740 TW per unstated unit area of the weapon's beam, or something along those lines. But Simon's absolutely right that a straight interpretation of the quote is simply unworkable given what we see in the series - particularly, LOGH is a franchise where fleets fight in extreme close proximity to stars for hours with no comment that its at all more dangerous or even slightly inconvenient - even the debris of destroyed ships (i.e. no shields) can survive the energy output.

[Simon_Jester]

Iserlohn can indeed blow away whole formations; this happens several times during the series. Unless the ships are made of something silly like hydrogen ice, this entails very high flux for the beam weapon- something on the order of gigawatts or terawatts per square meter, over a lot of square meters.

Geiersburg's main gun isn't necessarily that powerful, but from the way it's hyped up it should at least be within shouting distance.

[Batman]

@Vympel's last post
Um-the Wiki entry says 740 million megawatts. 740 million terawatts might actually be enough to explain why the Fortesses can take on whole fleets with impunity yet ship vs ship LOGH can stand up to the Feds.

[Vympel]

@Vympel's last post
Um-the Wiki entry says 740 million megawatts. 740 million terawatts might actually be enough to explain why the Fortesses can take on whole fleets with impunity yet ship vs ship LOGH can stand up to the Feds.

Yeah typo.

[Batman]

Actually, on second thought, it wouldn't even then (unless LOGH ships like to hug, and the few visuals I've seen don't seem to support that theory), the affected area not occupied by enemy ships is just too great (unless the weapon goes technobabble and breaks up into individual beams that hit individual ships, which I very much suspect does not happen).

[Darth Fanboy]

Connor has summarized what my poisition is pretty good, but I feel the need to say it directly.

Takemeout (gawd get a shorter username), i've seen so many "hey i'm writing a fanfic..." threads that i've lost count on this and other forums. So i'm not trying to say that ST vs LoGH isn't worth discussing, but if you're going at this from a fic-writing angle then I can assume that you want to write a decent story. When you put up your original setting, then the modifications you made, it looked pretty clear that you have a bit of an author's crush on Reinhard, but I still don't think that you grasp the idea that, if you want to write a storyline about something specific that you want to write about (a trek vs. LoGH battle) that it is incredibly beneficial to look at what you want to write about, and then backtrack through what all the steps would be.

Example:
-The goal is to write a story about war between the Empire of LoGH, led by Reinhard against the Federation. Everybody is entitled to write about what they want, so even though I as a reader wouldnt see much interest in this, that has no bearing.

-Ask why they would be fighting or what they would be fighting over? We know the Empire is expansionistic, and agressive towards its enemies. So we have to figure out how the Feds end up antagonizing them? A logical answer we will use for this speculation would be allying with Yang Wenli and either the FPA or the Iserlohn Republic in the face of Imperial aggression (you arent locked into that but this is just an example). The other thing you have to ask yourself is do you embrace the eventual death of Reinhard or find a way for him to be spared.

-Taking a step back, why would the Feds align against the Empire with the FPA and/or Iserlohn? In defense of democracy? Vital trading partner? Perhaps Admiral Bucock is the guy who sets everything in motion? Or humanitarian reasons as the Alliance suffers under Imperial rule (depending on your timeframe, it could even be because the Federation opposes the Goldenbaum dynasty, and once the Empire comes under Reinhards control he assumes that rivalry just as he did with the FPA)

-Which takes us back to the time place and circumstances surrounding first contact. Which is where you seemed to start and I think this is what opened you more up to critique, because honestly, you picked a shitty start. The Federation mows down a fleet of unidentified ships because they "might" be dominion? Pretty flimsy. I also don't think the Dominion war as a setting does you any favors, but that's personal preference. I think your own story would be enhanced not having to tell another one. You were obviously trying to provoke your war and picked something that, were it feasible, would do just that with little to no consideration of whether or not it would work. But i'm getting ahead of myself.

-What timeframe are you putting each setting in? What characters are you going to specifically focus on? If you are all about writing for Reinhard and his Admirals more than the Alliance characters there you go, and what Trek characters do you think you would want to focus on? Unless you are writing a terrible sometimes funny mostly useless comedy for cheap laughs and shock value, this should be semi helpful advice.

At that point you've created a reverse outline palatable to you and can then turn it around and go for more feedback. Research the tech as you go along and use it as you form your settings to add to what you write. Then it's all in the internet's hands whether it gets any positive feedback or not.

[takemeout_totheblack]

After some deliberation I think I have come up with a situation that may be workable given each character's motivations/personality.

I'm sticking with the OP date for the LoGH-Verse because this way I can still have Yang Wen-Li and Reinhard Von Lohengramm be key figures by virtue of not being dead while also being at the height of their power, an unbeatable folk hero with a Death Star and the Emperor of Humanity respectively. I'm also sticking with roughly the same time in the Star Trek universe, mid-2374 or thereabouts. This means that the war is not quite as hopeless as the combined forces of the UFP, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Star Empire are beginning to halt the Dominion advance. Also the passageway between the ST-Verse and the LoGH-Verse will conveniently be just inside Dominion territory/on the border.
The reason for this being that when the NGE sends it's civilian vessels through to investigate, the Dominion will be far more likely to attack due to the war's recent turn for the worse, especially when they see humans on the view screen. I feel this gives the NGE reason enough to establish a significant military presence around their side of the doorway early in the story.

From there it'd be easy to create some OC dickhead in the NGE military-public relations office looking to further himself via another war. Not-Trunicht then creates demand for a preemptive strike using scare tactics and propaganda, frightening Imperial Citizens with pictures of big scary aliens and warnings of extermination. In that situation Reinhard would feel compelled to do something to assuage his people's fears, living up to his reputation as a strong but caring leader, and thus sends High Admiral (take your pick) through with a respectable task force in order to establish a defensive perimeter around the other side of the doorway.
Yang Wen-Li takes this distraction as a godsend, the Iserlohn Republic now having time to get their resources together/build a larger force, all the while prophesying that no good can come of this and prepares accordingly. Meanwhile, the NGE's military presence in/near their space causes the Dominion to attack with greater ferocity which in turn leads to escalation on the part of the NGE, and so on and so on.

About two weeks later cut to the Federation Alliance noticing that the Dominion has started acting strange, withdrawing from minor systems, pulling back their battle lines to more defensible positions, even altogether abandoning more difficult operations as though they were trying to free up ships and resources for something else. Naturally the FA learns of The Dominion's new front and sends ambassadorial teams to try and pitch a 'The Enemy Of My Enemy Is My Friend' relationship. Jean Luc Picard and The Enterprise are sent to broker an alliance with the newcomers while Benjamin Sisko grumbles about trading one empire for another.

Then throw in the remains of the Earth Cult, an unwanted republican migration, and maybe a Borg Cube or two for flavoring.

So yeah, conflict between the LoGH-Verse and the good guys in Star Trek won't be as instantaneous as I had tried to force before, but there's plenty of ways to kick up a conflict between the two given some time/effort.

[Darth Fanboy]

If you think Iserlohn/El Facil is the height of Yang's power I would disagree, his influence perhaps but certainly not power. You are also making Reinhard more subject to public opinion than what seems reasonable.

On the Trek side, well unless you have a hard on for Sisko or Data why not set it post-Nemesis? I still think the Klingons would make for a better adversary, and you can have their alliance with the Federation and the perceived oppression of the FPA (if that's known) be factors in aligning the UFP against the Empire. Its an easy setup, and by being aligned with the Klingons the AQ can have larger fleets to wield against the four and five digit Imperial fleets, not to mention the fighters.

Trying to add in the Borg and Dominion would take a lot of talent to pull off without killing your main story, unless you are prepared to write it long as hell just like LoGH and have more writing ability than I give you credit for. But your scene just sounds like a clusterfuck (the bad kind).

[Simon_Jester]

Having things like the Borg and the Dominion in play (which are basically 'giant thug' villains, they exist to be fought and you can't reason with them) is tricky. They don't make good viewpoints, so the main reason to bother with them is to create an outside force that both sides have to worry about.

The only time that's really helpful is if you can use it as an environmental factor- have one side exploit the other side's distraction and score a telling blow. Say, a bunch of Borg cubes show up and force the Imperial fleet to go divert to handle them, while someone else sneaks in behind them and does something sneaky to their supply line, weakening them for future confrontations.

That's just one example, not a recommendation. It's probably not the best one, either.

Think about one of the big themes of LoGH: great military victories come from either being much smarter than your enemy (using superior tactics or strategy to draw him into a deadly position), or exploiting some advantage of 'terrain' that the enemy doesn't know. Iserlohn is a powerful position because of the terrain around it (I know that's not a good word for space, it's the best I've got). Many battles like Amlitzer are shaped by one side's clever use of the terrain to destroy or at least slow down a superior opponent.

Star Trek is full of anomalies that could be used this way, so that would be a natural point of common ground between the two settings if it came to a shooting match. And I think I agree with DF that even if it does turn into a war, it shouldn't do so fast, or without plenty of exploration of the peacetime relationships between the galaxies.

If you think Iserlohn/El Facil is the height of Yang's power I would disagree, his influence perhaps but certainly not power.

The big conflict Yang faces in the first half or so of the story is that he has no ambition, which means he has very little control over the direction of his life... but that his talent and circumstances leave him in positions of responsibility, where he is forced to exercise power almost against his will. From the start of his career, he spends most of his time either being told what to do by his superiors, or reacting to enemy actions that limit his options.

He often achieves great things no one expected (the El Facil evacuation, the capture of Iserlohn, salvaging parts of the fleet from major Imperial victories)... but his achievements are always reactions to something else.

But in Iserlohn after the fall of FPA power, Yang has 'power' in that he is finally in command of his own destiny- he can make peace when he chooses, and (reluctantly) fight wars if he thinks it best. Even if he doesn't have as many ships or men under his command, he's a free agent, which makes his character somewhat more interesting in my opinion.

[Darth Fanboy]

Psst, Jester, there is a reason a number of people dont like you, and its because you restate shit like that. I have seen the series, you dont have to explain what Yang went through like I am not familiar with the series.

Yang's "power", and not just his personal influence, I think would have been right up until he had to give up Iserlohn prior to Vermillion, as that was the last time he actually had the resources to make a real difference. Just because Yanng was in control of Iserlohn, I dont think he was really in control of his destiny at that point because he was sealed off at both ends of the corridor with little chance of making gains. You are right that nobody was telling him what to do but Yang's accomplishments were barely making headway at that point given how little resistance the rest of the Alliance offered.

[Simon_Jester]

Psst, Jester, there is a reason a number of people dont like you, and its because you restate shit like that. I have seen the series, you dont have to explain what Yang went through like I am not familiar with the series.

Unnecessary blocks of amateur literary analysis bother you that much?

Yang's "power", and not just his personal influence, I think would have been right up until he had to give up Iserlohn prior to Vermillion, as that was the last time he actually had the resources to make a real difference. Just because Yanng was in control of Iserlohn, I dont think he was really in control of his destiny at that point because he was sealed off at both ends of the corridor with little chance of making gains. You are right that nobody was telling him what to do but Yang's accomplishments were barely making headway at that point given how little resistance the rest of the Alliance offered.

OK, I get that. That makes sense.

So you've got a choice between a Yang who has power but little agency, or who has agency but little power. If you want him to be an interesting crossover character, which is more important? What's his role in the story?

Yang makes a lousy conqueror, but he can connect with people from the ST Federation very well. Is his freedom to negotiate with them (agency) less important than the number of ships and troops he has?

[takemeout_totheblack]

Trying to add in the Borg and Dominion would take a lot of talent to pull off without killing your main story, unless you are prepared to write it long as hell just like LoGH and have more writing ability than I give you credit for. But your scene just sounds like a clusterfuck (the bad kind).

The example I gave was just my re-imagined setting, all the Dominion is there to do is give the Empire a reason to bother with the other galaxy in the first place. I know the Dominion isn't very interesting in and of itself, that's why I chose this point in time in order to use them to get my intended story going, they're a plot device that can be shot at, just like in the actual series. The bulk of the story will be the ensuing drama kicked up by the differences in ideology between the NGE and the rest of the Alpha Quadrant. I was thinking something like a mass migration of LoGH-Verse republicans from the NGE to the UFP as being a major point of antagonism between the two, maybe even some residual xenophobia kicked up by Not-Trunicht during his propaganda campaign. Also, I've written some fairly long (80,000+ word) fanfics before, and that wasn't even on subject matter as dense or heady as LoGH or Star Trek, so length won't be an issue in the slightest...except for the reader.

If you think Iserlohn/El Facil is the height of Yang's power I would disagree, his influence perhaps but certainly not power. You are also making Reinhard more subject to public opinion than what seems reasonable.

Of course Reinhard would be influenced by the turmoil of his people, I know he's not worried about getting re-elected or anything but he is pretty much the definition of a benign/beneficial dictator. Just because he's Kaiser at this point doesn't automatically mean he has his head up is ass regarding his subjects.
As for Yang, I feel at this point he's at his most potent as he's not being constantly being harassed by those idiots in the FPA. Also, with Yang being a much smaller threat (on paper), it would make it easier for Reinhard's attendants to convince him to focus on the potential threat of the Dominion and the resulting public uproar. This allows for Yang to become a major factor later in the story by virtue of not being constantly attacked by the NGE and having time to plan.

On the Trek side, well unless you have a hard on for Sisko or Data why not set it post-Nemesis? I still think the Klingons would make for a better adversary, and you can have their alliance with the Federation and the perceived oppression of the FPA (if that's known) be factors in aligning the UFP against the Empire. Its an easy setup, and by being aligned with the Klingons the AQ can have larger fleets to wield against the four and five digit Imperial fleets, not to mention the fighters.

How would the Klingons alone a few years later be a greater ally than both the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire combined? You know, The Federation Alliance? It was never just the UFP vs the NGE, it was always those three under that banner. At this point it's all three against the Dominion and all three are geared for war. That's an ideal situation for ST to stand a chance against a military power like the NGE.
Also I'd like the Enterprise crew/DS9 crew to be intact at the start, as their established dynamic would be easier to write from the get go than modifying it to include 'Data/Sisko dead! Angstity angst angst'! If I kill anyone off during the story it'll be easier for me to formulate a reaction due to it being on my terms.

[Darth Fanboy]

Unnecessary blocks of amateur literary analysis bother you that much?

It is incredibly fucking annoying when somebody restates something for no good reason. I've seen the series, you don't need to re-explain part of the series to me just because you disagree with my interpretation.

OK, I get that. That makes sense.

So you've got a choice between a Yang who has power but little agency, or who has agency but little power. If you want him to be an interesting crossover character, which is more important? What's his role in the story?

Yang makes a lousy conqueror, but he can connect with people from the ST Federation very well. Is his freedom to negotiate with them (agency) less important than the number of ships and troops he has?

That's what our thread author has to decide, but he seems too occupied with how many pew pew lazors he can cram into each scene.

[Darth Fanboy]

The example I gave was just my re-imagined setting, all the Dominion is there to do is give the Empire a reason to bother with the other galaxy in the first place. I know the Dominion isn't very interesting in and of itself, that's why I chose this point in time in order to use them to get my intended story going, they're a plot device that can be shot at, just like in the actual series. The bulk of the story will be the ensuing drama kicked up by the differences in ideology between the NGE and the rest of the Alpha Quadrant. I was thinking something like a mass migration of LoGH-Verse republicans from the NGE to the UFP as being a major point of antagonism between the two, maybe even some residual xenophobia kicked up by Not-Trunicht during his propaganda campaign. Also, I've written some fairly long (80,000+ word) fanfics before, and that wasn't even on subject matter as dense or heady as LoGH or Star Trek, so length won't be an issue in the slightest...except for the reader.

You have an expansionistic Empire that has conquered known/civilized space in the region it inhabits, you plan on keeping the most ambitious leader of said Empire's history, why do you need another reason? Especially when the Dominion isn't your intended adversary for the Empire?

Of course Reinhard would be influenced by the turmoil of his people, I know he's not worried about getting re-elected or anything but he is pretty much the definition of a benign/beneficial dictator. Just because he's Kaiser at this point doesn't automatically mean he has his head up is ass regarding his subjects.

Do yourself a favor and stop jerking it over Reinhard, you can only call him a benign and beneficial dictator just because he has a lot of support and because he replaced a pretty shitty autocracy that lasted hundreds of years. He also perpetrated a war of aggression and stole the freedoms of millions of former Alliance citizens to satisfy his own ego, and the fighting had many casualties.

Reinhard will of course be influenced by his subjects, but he also wouldn't allow his subjects to be manipulated in a way he doesn't wish. If some official is stirring up a sentiment Reinhard doesn't like, then Oberstein or Kesler would deal with that person.

As for Yang, I feel at this point he's at his most potent as he's not being constantly being harassed by those idiots in the FPA. Also, with Yang being a much smaller threat (on paper), it would make it easier for Reinhard's attendants to convince him to focus on the potential threat of the Dominion and the resulting public uproar. This allows for Yang to become a major factor later in the story by virtue of not being constantly attacked by the NGE and having time to plan.

With what resources? Unless you plan on having Yang link up with the UFP, then he really doesn't have much to work with unless more planets like El Facil rally to his side, and if Yang does link up with the Feds then why the fuck do you need the Dominion to induce the Empire? Oh that's right because you are hell bent on writing for DS9 and TNG characters which would make the overall cast of this fic somewhere in the mid forties or fifties?

How would the Klingons alone a few years later be a greater ally than both the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire combined? You know, The Federation Alliance? It was never just the UFP vs the NGE, it was always those three under that banner. At this point it's all three against the Dominion and all three are geared for war. That's an ideal situation for ST to stand a chance against a military power like the NGE.

So why not have the Romulans get back on the AQ side, having become a friendlier and more interested government minus Shinzon and the Reman plot after Picard helped end Shinzon's control of the RSE?

You also don't seem to get the concept of "ideal situation". All three may be geared for war, but their resources are going to spread out that much further, they will have suffered losses in ships and personnel that will not have been replaced, and really what you are doing is making a bad situation worse. Spread the Federation Alliance out and suddenly those big ships being bult over Cardassia get built, and suddenly this war with the UFP is very bad.

Also I'd like the Enterprise crew/DS9 crew to be intact at the start, as their established dynamic would be easier to write from the get go than modifying it to include 'Data/Sisko dead! Angstity angst angst'! If I kill anyone off during the story it'll be easier for me to formulate a reaction due to it being on my terms.

So handwave them back, there's no reason Sisko couldn't have returned by then by some fiat, and no reason that the Data programming couldn't have re-emerged within B4 in the interim if that is what you truly want. You have more freedom in areas of continuity that aren't covered.

[takemeout_totheblack]

You have an expansionistic Empire that has conquered known/civilized space in the region it inhabits, you plan on keeping the most ambitious leader of said Empire's history, why do you need another reason? Especially when the Dominion isn't your intended adversary for the Empire?

I need a reason because I don't think Reinhard simply jump into another war with some unknown universe when Yang Wenli is still alive unless that other universe was the greater threat. What I need to get it going at this junction is something that would eclipse their rivalry in terms of overall importance. The Dominion fills this role well by being an aggressive expansionist regime while Yang is, simply put, a smart guy in an easily ignorable (as both Yang and Reinhard have noted) battle station.

tl;dr
Reinhard is more likely to ignore Yang if the ST-Verse presents a bigger threat. No one in Star Trek other than the Dominion at this point fills this role.

Do yourself a favor and stop jerking it over Reinhard, you can only call him a benign and beneficial dictator just because he has a lot of support and because he replaced a pretty shitty autocracy that lasted hundreds of years. He also perpetrated a war of aggression and stole the freedoms of millions of former Alliance citizens to satisfy his own ego, and the fighting had many casualties.

Reinhard will of course be influenced by his subjects, but he also wouldn't allow his subjects to be manipulated in a way he doesn't wish. If some official is stirring up a sentiment Reinhard doesn't like, then Oberstein or Kesler would deal with that person.

I see your point.

With what resources? Unless you plan on having Yang link up with the UFP, then he really doesn't have much to work with unless more planets like El Facil rally to his side, and if Yang does link up with the Feds then why the fuck do you need the Dominion to induce the Empire? Oh that's right because you are hell bent on writing for DS9 and TNG characters which would make the overall cast of this fic somewhere in the mid forties or fifties?

I'm thinking that his presence in the Iselohn Corridor would facilitate the migration of former-FPA citizens into the UFP, whereupon his status as a separate democratic entity would become known to the UFP. They would then blithely send an ambassadorial team to go out and meet new friends. From your posts I get the feeling you know where this will lead.

And what's wrong with a big cast? Chuck's Unity Saga had a pretty sizable chunk of both Verses important people. Not that I'm prematurely comparing my work to his favorably or anything, I'm just pointing out that it's not as big a deal as you seem to think it is.

So why not have the Romulans get back on the AQ side, having become a friendlier and more interested government minus Shinzon and the Reman plot after Picard helped end Shinzon's control of the RSE?

Because they're already there in my scenario without having to do some silly 'oh they're nice now'. The Romulans are at their most interesting when they're ruthless and imperialistic schemers who should have seen that whole Shinzon business for the idiocy that it was.

You also don't seem to get the concept of "ideal situation". All three may be geared for war, but their resources are going to spread out that much further, they will have suffered losses in ships and personnel that will not have been replaced, and really what you are doing is making a bad situation worse. Spread the Federation Alliance out and suddenly those big ships being bult over Cardassia get built, and suddenly this war with the UFP is very bad.

When I say 'ideal situation' I'm talking in terms of how prepared they're going to be when they have to start up again. The scrap between the NGE and the AQ isn't going to happen for a while after first contact, all three factions within the FA are likely going to have some down time to catch their breath before the shit hits the plasma conduit.
I'd like to have them come away from a bloody and horrific war, have time to contemplate their navels on the nature of war-life-misc, and then get thrust back into another one with an even more powerful enemy due to irreconcilable differences.
Drama!

So handwave them back, there's no reason Sisko couldn't have returned by then by some fiat, and no reason that the Data programming couldn't have re-emerged within B4 in the interim if that is what you truly want. You have more freedom in areas of continuity that aren't covered.

Why would I force a return when I could simply choose a point in time when they're both still alive? Character handwaves should be a last resort, not a starting point!
It's almost like I chose the original setting for my fic based off of some kind of thinking process instead of picking it out of a hat.

(And Data actually did reemerge in B-4 according to a tie-in comic with ST-2009 and the fluff for ST:O)

[Connor MacLeod]

First off regarding ST Combat: which examples are we using? I checked the examples (like abandoning/retaking DS9, Chin'toka, or the last battle.) and it didn't quite strike me as being the same as LOGH. LOGH seems to rely far more on staying stationary, whilst Federation ships invariably are moving towards one another as if trying to intercept (like in trying to break past to reach DS9.) The approach seems to be something akin to 'get close to the enemy and then break apart to manuver and attack' - the ideal seems to be to surround and swamp the enemy (which is one thing that lead to the slaughter at Chin'toka) as well as to prevent the enemy from breaking away and using their high speed impules or warp drives (like the defiant did once it broke a hole through the enemy.) Given their FTL sensors and warp drive (as well as fast sublight) you would want to do that. An enemy or group of enemies breaking free of the engagement would be able ot warp away and come back in a new position and strike better coordinated, for example (which the Klingons apparently did.) And you can't just 'ignore' enemies va warp eitehr - they can detect and travel at warp too so they can pursue you to your destination, so you have to face them (or delay them) somehow (again in the retaking of DS9.)

EW may or may not be a factor in close ranges as well, as could power allocation (relatively slower speeds because more energy is diverted to weapons and engines, and recoil issues may make AMRE impractical) - at least if we're going to use space weather and EW to explain away LOGH tactics the same can apply to ST.

Formations for ST only seem to apply up until they actually engage, then they either break up into smaller elements or they fight individually - again its more like dogfighting, even with the larger ships. (although the cruisers and galaxy class ships I think Sisko held back at one point as either a reserve or to engage in long range supporting fire.)

Thor's Hammer/Vulture's claw: Frankly they're bizarre as hell weapons that make no sense as an energy weapon (unlike the particle beam/laser weapons, which you can make allowances for.) IT has an arbitrary 'stopping point' in space where ships can hold at and literally remain unharmed, even from proximity damage. It has an 'area of effect'. Its damage is more delayed thna with conventional beam weapons (it usuallly takes seconds fore ships are destroyed.) 'Flamethrower' is ismply my way of trying ot make sense of it. Saying 'fairy duest' or 'magic acid' probably would work just as well.

As far as interpreting the output.. we dont know if someone misspoke, or if it applies in some specific context (watts per square metre) or whatever. We know from the licesensed sources that kiloton to megaton range detonations can destroy even battleships, so you dont need huge amounts of energy to take out starships. Its possible the 740 tW figure reflects the amount of power delivered to each ship in a sustained manner, which would fit with what we know just as well as any interpretation. Hell I'm not even actually sure it melts things.. just because it turns to liquid in the beam doesnt mean that (because a transition from solid to liquid with metals should make the ships glow.. I dont think we saw that in every case. And I think Thors Hammer/Vulture's claw was one reason I wondered if LOGH hulls were liquid metal Although if they are destroyed by KT yields the liquid metal would explain the apparent 'melting' )

Its confirmed in the series that ship's beam cannons run off the ship's main power supply - in addition to the amount of times they refer to "energy and missiles" (using the actual english words) beginning to run out in battle, in "The Retriever" Gaiden Season 2 arc Reinhard's cruiser uses up the majority of its energy to fire off the directional Seffle particle generator prototype - doing so gives them only enough energy for one shot of their main cannons (defined as all six forward gun ports).

YEah. Although that would be ab it puzzling for 'reactor mass' since IIRC they have cruising endurances on the order of 140-300 hours based on the licesned sources for Imperial starships (They carry enough fuel/propellant for that long, anyhow.) Perhaps the 140 hours is 'cruising speed' and they operate at lower outputs (less propellant) than at combat levels (which consumes fuel/propellant more quickly.)

On the other hand it probably rules out them running weapons and defenses on capacitors during battle, which would be.. interesting (insane) given their potential reactor outputs for the engines (and those dont run on capacitors near as we can tell.) Not impossible to reconcile and its still a possibility, but messy.

Of course the terminology as we've discucsed before is.. interesting and probably shouldn't be taken at 100% literal. so 'energy' could refer to anything (it could mean they ran out of neutrons to shoot I mean energy in a generator/reactor is unlikely to be purely EM radiation, after all.)

You really have to wonder why they bothered with the flamethrower to begin with. Given the power and range of teir energy cannons, those would have made more sense (and the liquid metal surfaces of the armour mean they can out-attrition any military force.) Giving their weapons greater reach would also have denied the enemy much in the way of safe zones.

IYou can see what could be set evasive maneuvers in several battles in the series. One that sticks out is this one:-

...

Note the battleship lines moving in unison.

We know they have some degree of automation of ships (autopilot), and can even run the ships on limited/skeleton crews at that, so the idea that they have to rely on some sort of datalink to coordinate ships manuvering and firing makes sense. Hell that may even be the point of flagships - they serve as the centralized nodes for relaying orders. Maybe the human crews are just there to make sure things run smoothly and make corrections.

Of course coordinating huge fleets (thousands or tens of thousands of ships) will be cumbersome even with lightspeed comms (accumulated delays, lag, etc.) so formations will be important in that, as well as placement (the blocky sorts of romations they favor probably help in that regard. But the need to coordinate is also probably going to give them an appearance of being sluggish or immobile as well.

[Darth Fanboy]

I need a reason because I don't think Reinhard simply jump into another war with some unknown universe when Yang Wenli is still alive unless that other universe was the greater threat. What I need to get it going at this junction is something that would eclipse their rivalry in terms of overall importance. The Dominion fills this role well by being an aggressive expansionist regime while Yang is, simply put, a smart guy in an easily ignorable (as both Yang and Reinhard have noted) battle station.

tl;dr
Reinhard is more likely to ignore Yang if the ST-Verse presents a bigger threat. No one in Star Trek other than the Dominion at this point fills this role.

As I asked earlier, given the presence of the Federation alliance, if Reinhard wanted a campaign in the AQ, why would he even participate? Why wouldn't he let the two fight it out and then move in to take on the tired, overextended, and bruised winner?

I'm thinking that his presence in the Iselohn Corridor would facilitate the migration of former-FPA citizens into the UFP, whereupon his status as a separate democratic entity would become known to the UFP. They would then blithely send an ambassadorial team to go out and meet new friends. From your posts I get the feeling you know where this will lead.

EXACTLY. Which is why you don't need the Dominion to prompt the conflict you are actively seeking to write for.

And what's wrong with a big cast? Chuck's Unity Saga had a pretty sizable chunk of both Verses important people. Not that I'm prematurely comparing my work to his favorably or anything, I'm just pointing out that it's not as big a deal as you seem to think it is.

I didn't read Unity, but I never said it was impossible for a story with a huge number of plotlines and characters to work either. You seem to be ignoring or not understanding my point which is, unless you are supremely confident or at least just really hell bent on trying to depict all of these events, that there is no reason to make the story more complicated than it needs to be. You have expressed the desire of writing the Empire vs. the Federation, and every plot thread, character, and faction you add to your tale has the potential to detract from that.

Because they're already there in my scenario without having to do some silly 'oh they're nice now'. The Romulans are at their most interesting when they're ruthless and imperialistic schemers who should have seen that whole Shinzon business for the idiocy that it was.

Having decent relations with the Federation doesn't make them less ruthless and imperialistic. And If that's your argument then you've already lost that since the Feds in DS9 had infiltrated and were extering some of their influence on the Romulan government. And "that whole Shinzon business" is there in the background of your new story wether you like it or not unless you use a handwave, which is fine except you have expressed a desire not to use those even if they are reasonable.

When I say 'ideal situation' I'm talking in terms of how prepared they're going to be when they have to start up again. The scrap between the NGE and the AQ isn't going to happen for a while after first contact, all three factions within the FA are likely going to have some down time to catch their breath before the shit hits the plasma conduit.
I'd like to have them come away from a bloody and horrific war, have time to contemplate their navels on the nature of war-life-misc, and then get thrust back into another one with an even more powerful enemy due to irreconcilable differences.
Drama!

So what is so ideal about having to fight back to back wars? Last I checked that wasn't ideal. The Federation Alliance was not that far from defeat at one point and all sides at that point had taken considerable losses. Your attempt to create an ideal scenario for the Federation makes it much more ideal for the Empire, who would let the two sides fight it out and then come in to wreck the winner. And Yang Wenli can easily just be isolated in the corridor by two of Reinhard's fleets, and the Kaiser would just have to say, "just keep him stuck in there and don't do anything."

Also, something we haven't explored too much, where does Reunthal stand in all of this? If he's overseeing the Alliance territory and starts getting manipulated into rebelling again, your Federation/Empire conflict is going to have another glaring problem detracting from it.

Why would I force a return when I could simply choose a point in time when they're both still alive? Character handwaves should be a last resort, not a starting point!

Sisko isn't dead and we see at the end of Nemesis that the Data programming was emerging in B4, it's not a leap in logic that should concern you that much. You would have that return rather than picking the point in time that you have chosen, because it makes more sense for the story you want to tell.

It's almost like I chose the original setting for my fic based off of some kind of thinking process instead of picking it out of a hat.

First of all there is nothing original about the setting for your fic, there is nothing original about a crossover fanfiction. You are using established properties. There is nothing wrong with this, but don't kid yourself. Secondly, your "thinking process" isn't so much of a process as it is an arbitrary decision that you haven't put as much thought into as you would like to think.

[Darth Fanboy]

Connor, without getting into the technical details too much, how do you think the Valkyrie fighters would play into this whole situation? It seems they would provide an incredible advantage against more agile federation ships unless AQ shield technology has a massive advantage over LoGH fighter weaponry. I admit not being familiar with fighter capacity for Imperial carriers though.