14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

[JME2]

Anyway, it's difficult to lend credence to such an artifice being successful. We're talking about the Romulans here. Their military analysts and superior intelligence forces would have seen through this ruse in a heartbeat.

The Tal Shiar should certainly have been suspicious with their investigation and ultimate findings. However, there's a possible explanation.

We know from "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" that while Tal Shiar Chairman Koval was publicly opposed to the Alliance, he was privately in favor of keeping it intact. Furthermore, he had been passing on Dominion-related intel to Starfleet Intelligence since mid-Season 6 -- right around the time frame of Vreenak's assassination. And Koval had to have known that the Dominion was coming for the Star Empire sooner or later, especially after his agency's role in the Omarion Nebula fiasco.

I think it's very probable that Koval eliminated questionable pieces of evidence or downplayed any incongruities when he presented his findings to the Senate, hoping that they would join the Alliance.

[Cowl]

That seems like a more plausible explanation. Were the Romulans to go to war during the Federation-Klingon/Dominion conflict, it would be at a time when the circumstances would be at their most opportune, preferably when all of their opponents have weakened themselves to a sufficient degree. (Would fall in line with what we know of the Romulan Empire.)

This transparent ruse might have saved them the trouble to arrange for a casus belli themselves.

[JME2]

That seems like a more plausible explanation. Were the Romulans to go to war during the Federation-Klingon/Dominion conflict, it would be at a time when the circumstances would be at their most opportune, preferably when all of their opponents have weakened themselves to a sufficient degree. (Would fall in line with what we know of the Romulan Empire.)

This transparent ruse might have saved them the trouble to arrange for a casus belli themselves.

The short story "Blood Sacrifice" from the anthology Tales of the Dominion War delves into the state of Romulan politics during the timeframe of "In the Pale Moonlight".

The Senate was evenly divided on the Dominion War issue. Vreenak and his supporters were in favor of maintaining the pact. Some even were in favor of openly allying with the Dominion to destroy their old enemies once and for all.

Other Senators, including Cretak, recognized the danger and didn't believe the Founders would keep their pact of nonaggression. Even Neral was in favor of the alliance, despite his own hatred of the Klingons due to their role in his family's death.

Even if Koval didn't downplay the incongruities in the data rod, you're probably right that Neral and the pro-War faction used the assassination to their advantages instead of arranging a casus belli.

[Cowl]

What was the explanation given for Koval working with or for the Federation? Looking back, I felt that the Tal Shiar shouldn't have been compromised by the Federation in such a manner. At times I was under the belief that the writers of DS9 went to extreme lengths in discrediting and/or mistreating the Romulans.

[JME2]

What was the explanation given for Koval working with or for the Federation? Looking back, I felt that the Tal Shiar shouldn't have been compromised by the Federation in such a manner. At times I was under the belief that the writers of DS9 went to extreme lengths in discrediting and/or mistreating the Romulans.

Koval's motivations for working with the Federation was never revealed on-screen.

The closest explanation -- and I've only read the summary, so I may be missing key details - comes from "Suicide Note", a story from the TNG 20th anniversary anthology The Sky's the Limit. The story serves as a sequel to the "The Defector", following up on Admiral Jarok's family after he defected. It reveals that Koval -- who at the time was merely a general officer of the Tal Shiar -- was one of Jarok's supporters and was opposed to the Star Empire's militarism. When Picard is finally able to deliver Jarok's suicide message during an intelligence summit on Romulus and learns this, Koval's status as a Starfleet Intelligence operative gets reactivated.

[Captain Seafort]

Looking back, I felt that the Tal Shiar shouldn't have been compromised by the Federation in such a manner. At times I was under the belief that the writers of DS9 went to extreme lengths in discrediting and/or mistreating the Romulans.

Why not, and what gave you that impression?

[Havok]

Interesting, that for me, this episode is not 14 years later, but closer to 14 days later as I only saw it for the first time during my recent rewatch or the entirety of DS9.

Sisko did the wrong thing for the right reasons. That is the simple answer.

With further thought though, Sisko is a smart fella. There was no reason for Garek to go to the shuttle. In any other episode Sisko would have addressed this and told him to stay away from it.
The altercation with Garek in his shop was just window dressing for Sisko's own feelings and emotions on the matter, as Garek knew and pointed out.

Sisko was the bad guy in this episode. He and Garek manipulated an entire government into a war and caused the deaths of millions of Romulans that otherwise would have ridden out said war in relative peace. He also took them from a government that would have been the only remaining power in the Alpha Quadrant after the Dominion won allowing them a strong and comfortable position, to keeping them on equal footing with the Klingons and Federation in having to rebuild from the war.

It's as evil, sinister, sneaky and dirty an act as any bad guy has ever undertaken in Star Trek and it's what makes Sisko more than a cardboard cut out and so much more like Dukat than he or anyone else would admit. He is a war criminal that was never exposed.
It's what makes him a great character.

[JME2]

It's as evil, sinister, sneaky and dirty an act as any bad guy has ever undertaken in Star Trek and it's what makes Sisko more than a cardboard cut out and so much more like Dukat than he or anyone else would admit. He is a war criminal that was never exposed.

True -- though as I said on the first page, part of me was disappointed that the Vreenak Affair was never exposed. I always thought it was going to come back to bite Sisko in the ass during the second half of Season 6 or even during the Final Chapter. Still, it was a defining character moment for Sisko.

[TheHammer]

It was morally wrong, and also extremely dangerous. What would happen if the Romulans found out about that? Also, as I recall he didn't do this with the authorization of the Federation Council or Starfleet. He did it on his own initiative. Laws and chains of command exist for good reason. It is a terrible idea for individual commanders to make decisions like this without consulting their superiors.

Sisko did something illegal, immoral, and dangerous. I'd court-martial him in a heartbeat.

Until Sisko turns around and says on what leg do they stand on. The Federation and Starfleet basically gave the approval for a biological attack on the Founders. Wasn't that also illegal, immoral and dangerous?

Why would a biological attack on the Founders be illegal, immoral, or dangerous? It seems to me as though it would be the most moral of them all. With the exception of odo, they were all more or less complicit. As members of the "great link" every one of them was a defacto government official.

[Havok]

Did you just ask why genocide would be illegal?

[TheHammer]

Did you just ask why genocide would be illegal?

No, I asked why a targeted biological attack against the changelings in the great link would be illegal.

[Alyeska]

Did you just ask why genocide would be illegal?

No, I asked why a targeted biological attack against the changelings in the great link would be illegal.

Yeah, Genocide. Potentially even Xenocide.

[TheHammer]

Did you just ask why genocide would be illegal?

No, I asked why a targeted biological attack against the changelings in the great link would be illegal.

Yeah, Genocide. Potentially even Xenocide.

Only if the goal was annihlation of all changelings everywhere, the mortality rate of the bio weapon was 100%.

[Stofsk]

So uh, if the mortality rate is 100%, then wouldn't that mean the goal would be the annihilation of all changelings everywhere.

[FaxModem1]

Well, the 100 scout changelings that the Founders sent out would survive, but that doesn't have any relevance on the fact that it's still genocide.

Genocide against an enemy that is unanimous in wanting to destroy you, but genocide nonetheless.

[Lost Soal]

Except the goal of the Dominion was subjugation, not annihilation. They wanted power over the Alpha quadrant just as they had over the Gamma quadrant.

[Stofsk]

Yeah. And Weyoun's first thought on that was to wipe out earth to serve as an example to everyone in the Federation.

I mean sure Section 31 committed attempted genocide - but it couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch than the Founders.

[Channel72]

He also took them from a government that would have been the only remaining power in the Alpha Quadrant after the Dominion won allowing them a strong and comfortable position, to keeping them on equal footing with the Klingons and Federation in having to rebuild from the war.

What leads you to believe that the Dominion wouldn't have conquered the Romulans as well, after consolidating their presence in the Alpha quadrant? The Founders' xenophobic philosophy probably wouldn't tolerate a large Empire of "solids" like the Romulans, and it seems pretty clear that none of the Alpha quadrant powers were capable of withstanding all-out war with the Dominion. So the only hope was to form alliances.

Yeah, what Sisko did was obviously unethical - that's the whole point - but, it's not like he dragged the Romulans into an unnecessary war. If anything, he saved the Romulan Empire, along with the Federation and the Klingons, from inevitable Dominion conquest.

[JME2]

Well, the 100 scout changelings that the Founders sent out would survive, but that doesn't have any relevance on the fact that it's still genocide.

In the long-run, they wouldn't survive if Laas made good on his quest to find them (he would have been infected with the disease when he linked with Odo).

[Grumman]

Yeah, Genocide. Potentially even Xenocide.

So? Genocide is bad in the real world because you're targeting people based on illegitimate criteria, not because you have an obligation to preserve any race or culture. If the members of a race or culture are somehow all legitimate military targets - either because they share a group mind like the Founders' Great Link or because they're just a bunch of assholes like the Daleks - there's nothing wrong with treating them as such.

[Metahive]

Yeah, Genocide. Potentially even Xenocide.

So? Genocide is bad in the real world because you're targeting people based on illegitimate criteria, not because you have an obligation to preserve any race or culture. If the members of a race or culture are somehow all legitimate military targets - either because they share a group mind like the Founders' Great Link or because they're just a bunch of assholes like the Daleks - there's nothing wrong with treating them as such.

So why revile the Daleks or the Founders then? After all, they too just think that everyone they consider assholes and isn't them deserves to suffer and/or die. Why are their criteria supposedly "illegitimate" but yours aren't if there's otherwise nothing wrong about collective mass-murder in principle?

[Grumman]

So why revile the Daleks or the Founders then? After all, they too just think that everyone they consider assholes and isn't them deserves to suffer and/or die. Why are their criteria supposedly "illegitimate" but yours aren't if there's otherwise nothing wrong about collective mass-murder in principle?

Because they started it. Because self-defense is not murder. Because waging an aggressive war against another power is not the same as fighting back.

[Havok]

He also took them from a government that would have been the only remaining power in the Alpha Quadrant after the Dominion won allowing them a strong and comfortable position, to keeping them on equal footing with the Klingons and Federation in having to rebuild from the war.

What leads you to believe that the Dominion wouldn't have conquered the Romulans as well, after consolidating their presence in the Alpha quadrant? The Founders' xenophobic philosophy probably wouldn't tolerate a large Empire of "solids" like the Romulans, and it seems pretty clear that none of the Alpha quadrant powers were capable of withstanding all-out war with the Dominion. So the only hope was to form alliances.

Nonsense. The entire Gamma Quadrant is littered with members of the Dominion that "willing" joined and didn't have to be conquered. This is shown repeatedly as Dominion members often refer to the Jemhedar showing up if you fuck up, not that they are there constantly on guard and vigilant on individual planets or in the micro alliances.

If the RSE rides out the AQ war, which they probably would have, with the non aggression pact intact, they are the strongest power left in the AQ and while they would certainly have to bow to Dominion control, they would be in a position of strength and power over the remaining Empires, Federations and Alliances, if they even still existed, that opposed the Dominion.

However, because of Sisko, it became a "we all go down together" situation. If they win they all remain on equal footing, all having to rebuild. If they lose, well they probably all get beaten down pretty bad and most of what they had built is destroyed. Either way, the Federation and Sisko, in a very duplicitous way, made sure the Romulans weren't going to gain anything.

Yeah, what Sisko did was obviously unethical - that's the whole point - but, it's not like he dragged the Romulans into an unnecessary war. If anything, he saved the Romulan Empire, along with the Federation and the Klingons, from inevitable Dominion conquest.

The war was not unnecessary. However as I pointed out, the Romulan Star Empire would have remained intact, unscathed and probably rewarded with dominon over much of what used to be the Federation and finally rid of the threat of the Klingons. On top of that, their masters would be on the other side of the galaxy with only the worm hole giving them access. And for that matter, masters that don't really care much about what their subjects do as long as it is not counter productive to the Founders wishes. That is a situation that would be most favorable to the RSE.

[Havok]

Yeah, Genocide. Potentially even Xenocide.

So? Genocide is bad in the real world because you're targeting people based on illegitimate criteria, not because you have an obligation to preserve any race or culture. If the members of a race or culture are somehow all legitimate military targets - either because they share a group mind like the Founders' Great Link or because they're just a bunch of assholes like the Daleks - there's nothing wrong with treating them as such.

Bullshit. If that were true then you could justify killing every German that existed during WWII because they didn't oppose Hitler, so clearly they went along with him. Germany has a different culture afterall.

Also take into consideration that the Federation has no idea how the Great Link works. There are clearly differing opinions and individual thought or Odo would have fallen in line when he first entered it. There are also changelings that are not a part of the Great Link i.e., the Founders, that would have also been condemned to death. It is also reasonable to assume that there are young changelings like Laas, the baby changeling and Odo, that exist in the Link that may not be considered of a maturity to be included in decision making.

Genocide isn't just about killing every member of a race that exists, but every member that ever will exist.

[Metahive]

So why revile the Daleks or the Founders then? After all, they too just think that everyone they consider assholes and isn't them deserves to suffer and/or die. Why are their criteria supposedly "illegitimate" but yours aren't if there's otherwise nothing wrong about collective mass-murder in principle?

Because they started it. Because self-defense is not murder. Because waging an aggressive war against another power is not the same as fighting back.

The Founders didn't start with the genocide attempts. It was the Cardassians and the Romulans who tried it first and that solely because they were intimidated by the Dominion's military might. And guess what, the Federation was OK with that. So tell me, why should the Dominion have gone soft on the Alpha quadrant when three of its major powers were willing to murder all Changelings just out of fear which is exactly the reason why the Dominion was founded in the first place?
The Dominion committed vile acts (ie. The Quickening), but if that is enough to justify genocide then mankind should have been exterminated long ago.