Mass Effect 3 (Spoilers)

[Stofsk]

Chris, lots of games have bad endings. Why don't we always pressure developers into putting aside their own vision for additional fanservice? Like I said, the ME1 endings sucked shit out of my anus and people didn't just not whine; they liked them.

I agree, my first inclination is 'if a story sux, bin it and move on'. This can extend to other entertainment mediums too, but I think there's a sense that a game can be patched more easily than say, a bad episode of a TV show. But even a TV show's writers can feel the heat when ratings dwindle. I don't think there's anything wrong per se in viewers or players or whoever the audience is making their disquiet known.

[Stark]

Sorry, I played ME like a million times. If I had a dollar for evey time the game told me 'wow humans are good' or 'whoa those stupid aliens being stupid' I'd be the richest man in the world. One of the 'choices' at the end was even 'pffft aliens can you be fucked saving their retarded asses y/n'.

I didn't read the codex though. :v. I'm only surprised by the endings insofar as they should have built it up better; but writing by committee does that to a game. Everything else just seems Bioware typical Sith Artefact stuff.

Chris one of my metrics is people like Hav, ie non-typical gamers. If he can understand that Bioware writing is pretty bad, but heir games are good, and enjoy a game the way almost everyone here does until the end, maybe it's unfair to discard the whole game because you're butthurt about he ending. If I ever played ME again it'd be in action mode because I like the shooting but hate the story. I find the endings pretty amusing from this perspective.

[Zinegata]

So... you can't actually cite any specific examples?

I highly doubt you played ME1 a million times, and that "humans are good" and "aliens are stupid" was hardly a recurring theme. You end up fighting a lot of humans doing stupid things in ME1 too (to quote Wrex: "Anyone who is against us is either stupid, or in Saren's payroll. The latter is just business. The former is a service to humanity"). So again, I'm going to demand you cite specific examples.

Because bluntly the way you describe yourself and Hav smacks of nothing more than self-important arrogance. "I understand this game better than any of you unwashed masses ever can!" (despite the fact that Hav has been caught blatantly lying several times already).

In reality - as demonstrated by your complete inability to actually cite large numbers of specific examples demonstrating the supposed "racism" of the series as opposed to "aliens are just like people to!", merely demonstrates that you actually don't know shit.

You're criticizing a game that you didn't really actually play that much, and are once again engaging in nothing more than useless trolling. That's why the arguments from your crowd ultimately boil down to "HAHA! I'm so much smarter than you and your stupid fanboysims!", when in reality all you are is a troll who is criticizing a game he barely played.

[Stark]

God can you not be such a tryhard? This is why I said 'the message I got' from the game. Pretty much every alien is stupid or obstructive; the entire alien political system serves only to nag, annoy and limit you, destroying alien strength is the best thing for humans, etc. It doesn't help that most of the alien groups are Star Trek style one-note stuff, but the 'humans are super dooper special and aliens well aliens are around I guess' thing is there, and even plays into plot elements later on. I just don't see 'robo kill bio omg' as particularly outlandish for the awful writing throughout ME.

Actually, I've always felt that people think the ME writing is 'good' because it's all about sucking the player's dick. Maybe they hate the ME3 endings and are offended so much because it doesn't make them feel super tough and special.

[Zinegata]

Irrelevant bullshit. You are claiming that the series is racist "based on a million playthroughs". Cite specific examples or concede the argument. All you've done is to make generalizations about the Council being obstructive beareucrats - forgetting the fact they had good reason to ignore Commander Shepard (he/she doesn't have any evidence aside from what he/she saw from a 50,000 year old relic) - and that the Earth Alliance ALSO generally thinks Shep is crazy and will be obstructive to your efforts all the way to ME3 TOO. Did you seriously NOT encounter the Earth Alliance Admiral who called the Normandy a waste of resources that could have been used to built a cruiser? How about the reporter from Fox News who is blatantly baiting you to say racist things about your alien partners?

Moreover, I will now demand an exact number of times you have played the game. How many times have you actually played ME1? How about ME2.

That you keep trying to hurl the "I am smarter than you fanboys!" argument when it is becoming blatantly apparent you haven't actually played the game that much (or at all) because you cannot cite specific examples demonstrates that you lied about how many times you played ME1.

So say exactly how many times you did finish ME1, and ME2. Then cite specific examples of it promoting racism. I said SPECIFIC examples. Not generalizations that fall apart if you actually played the game.

Or concede that you are a trolling moron.

[Stark]

Dude do you seriously not see how stupid you look? I played ME1 way too much. Everyone knows I've never played the others. I said 'the message I got' from the game. If you think you can prove me 'wrong' about my interpretation of a text, you can continue to fail. I'm just surprised that people like Thanas find the ME3 finale an about-face on this issue, since I consider the games already very black and white in this way (and this is one of the many reasons I'll never play the others).

YOU HAVE DEMANDED AN EXACT NUMBER OF TIME I PLAYED THE ... sorry I died laughing. Its time for the obligatory 'obviously I was joking' backdown from you, I think.

EDIT - actually, this is a good example of the kind of mentality I was trying to articulate earlier. People who 'know' or are convinced they know what the game 'is' 'about' and can declare something to be 'wrong' and that the creators 'got it wrong' and should 'fix' it. Sorry dude; I got the reverse message from the same game. Turns out games (and stories) aren't just about what you want.

[Zinegata]

Well, given the third time you have refused to cite specific examples and instead try to squirm away from the question by baseless accusations of fanboyism...

Concession accepted. Congrats for being a trolling moron who thinks that his opinion is worth shit when he never actually played the game much, if at all.

It is clear that Stark didn't actually play the game much, if at all (which is no surprise, given how he trolled me the last time over Age of Conan - which he also never played) and he's just here to troll everyone else who actually did to make himself feel full of himself.

[Stofsk]

Zinegata, you're being a fuckwit. Calm the fuck down.

For the record, Stark has provided examples. He's pointed out how humans are FUCK YEAH new kid on the block, the council are full of shit, the endgame choice is literally 'sacrifice humans to save the council for the FUCK YEAH ending' or 'god aliens are stupid it would literally be better if we were in charge'.

[Zinegata]

Zinegata, you're being a fuckwit. Calm the fuck down.

For the record, Stark has provided examples. He's pointed out how humans are FUCK YEAH new kid on the block, the council are full of shit, the endgame choice is literally 'sacrifice humans to save the council for the FUCK YEAH ending' or 'god aliens are stupid it would literally be better if we were in charge'.

It was one generalized example, and again are you denying that the Council didn't have good reason not to believe Shepard? And are you ignoring that even the Earth Alliance - save for Anderson and a few others - didn't believe Shepard?

That doesn't show racism in the least. An obstructive government - yes. Aliens are stupid and racist? Nope.

(Also, I am talking as someone who played both ME1 AND ME2.)

[Thanas]

Maybe the issue is a bit more complex than that? From what I gather, a lot of the aliens are portrayed in a good way and the game does show how prejudices about an entire race were wrong (see for example the Geth).

[Zinegata]

Maybe the issue is a bit more complex than that? From what I gather, a lot of the aliens are portrayed in a good way and the game does show how prejudices about an entire race were wrong (see for example the Geth).

Exactly. The Geth in ME1 were portrayed as the robot apocalypse (which is probably the most "racist" element of ME1), but this is turned on its head in ME2.

In ME2 (Spoilers Ahead) it is revealed that the Geth you fought in ME1 was in fact a splinter faction, which saw the Reapers as Gods and wanted to worship them. Other Geth however rejected this philosophy, and one of them actually becomes your ally in ME2.

That's not showing that aliens are destined to be stupid compared to humans. It shows that aliens do actually have disagreements among themselves and you cannot judge an entire race based on simple generalizations.

They're not perfect (i.e. The Council is obstructive), but neither is humanity either (the Earth Alliance is ALSO obstructive) and they ALL suffer from the same general faults.

[Stark]

Dude I have every achievement in Mass Effect and everyone I know constantly laughs at me for playing it so much. There are other reasons to disagree with you beyond 'is a noob'. Your hyperventilating whenever anyone disagrees with you is fucking hilarious. My mates say OMG etc.

In other news, ME1s take on conflict was certainly related to guys creating species to fight for them (and how this is pretty much always wrong). Again, I don think this is really as left-field as some do.

[Havok]

NOTE THE ORDER OF EVENTS and what he says. "Very early WE" THEN "Rebeled against US", THEN "unite all organic life within OUR empire".

No, you fucking moron. You're again lying because again, the EXACT dialogue I linked says it straight out: The machines were not created by the Protheans. They were created by another race called the Zha.

Holy fucking shit, I haven't encountered this much stupidity in one person in AGES.
You linked to a scene with LITERALLY 5 WORDS that say "The X turned on the Y".
I quoted an actual full length sentence from an actual conversation that any normal person can comprehend:
Javik: "It was by necessity. Very early we encountered the dangers posed by machine intelligence. They rebelled against us."
Shep: "We had the same problem. They're called "geth"
Javik: "We could not allow the machines to surpass us. It was decided the only way to win was to unite all organic life within our empire."
Liara: "Did it work?"
Javik: "For a time. The "Metacon War". We were turning the tide."
Do you understand that in this Javik relays that the rebellion against the Protheans, by their OWN created machine intelligence happened BEFORE all organic life in their cycle was unified and that the decision to make all organic life "Prothean" happened AFTER the rebellion and in fact was the impetus for making the decision in the first place? Can you comprehend that? Watch it as many times as you need do dumbfuck. You'll get it eventually.
Even IF the Zha, created the machine intelligences that Javik is talking about... SO WHAT. It STILL shows that synthetics will fight their creators and vice versa. It still shows that there is indeed an "inherent" organic vs synthetic problem.

Moreover, this one's exceedingly easy to explain. Once an organic race has been incorporated into the Prothean empire, they are considered to be Protheans rather than their original race.

EXCEPT it is clear that HAD NOT HAPPENED YET. Christ... are you fucking for real?

So if one video says it was the "Zha" who created the machines, and another says "they rebellef against us", all it actually means is that the Zha were in fact part of the Prothean alliance/empire. But the Prothean race itself - the one Javik belonged to - did not create them unless you can prove that the Zha are in fact the original Prothean (which is again unlikely - why would Javik say the "Zha" created the machines when he could simply had said "We")

Hooooolllllyyyy fuuuuck. Can your miniscule intelligence not get that more than one race can make machines and then AI? JUST LIKE IN THE CURRENT CYCLE. How do you get through life being so stupid?
I love how you think you can extrapolate all this info from a FIVE WORD STATEMENT, yet completely ignore a conversation that gives an actual time table of events that shows you are wrong. Oh wait... that isn't surprising at all.

In short, again, all of your accusations about other people not listening? Untrue, because you are a fucking moron and a Nazi-lover.

Really? Because I just went through an entire post citing gameplay only and you called me a liar for it and ignored and dismissed the information it gives for your prefered 5 Word Statement.

You are simply again employing deliberate wall of ignorance, such as in this case...

Really... so not every example of synthetics/AI in ME hasn't involved either them trying to destroy their creators or their creators trying to destroy them? Is that your contention? REALLY? I mean, go ahead and say that...

I do not have to prove that "Organics and synthetics can ALWAYS live together in harmony".

Actually, kid, you do. Because that is what you are asserting.
I have shown that EVERY example of of AI in the game has shown EXACTLY what you say does not exists.
Prothean AI: Rebelled and caused a galactic scale war.
Your Zha AI: Rebelled against them.
Quarian AI: Rebelled against them.
Human AI: Rebelled against them.
Even EDI started out as the human AI on the Luna and then took the body of Cerberus synthetic that, surprise surprise, tried to kill Ashley/Kaiden and Sheppard's team.
Oh yeah...
Reaper AI: Killed countless trillions organics.
Ancient/Citadel AI: Orchestrated a cycle which kills trillions upon trillions of organics.

This doesn't even address the fact that all of the above mentioned AIs were either wiped out by their creators at some point or had massive wars waged against them by organics to do so.

So go ahead... PLEASE prove your assertion of peace "inherent" peace between organic and synthetics in the Mass Effect Universe.

I am disproving Little Hitler's notion that Organics and Synthetics are ALWAYS destined to kill each other.

No, actually, you have done no such thing. In fact in your fevorish nerdrage to show the Prothean AI were not created by the Protheans themselves, you managed to miss the point that it doesn't matter anyway as it still shows that Organics Vs AI is going to happen... further, see above.

Therefore, your attempt to dismiss the Quarian-Geth example, and the fact that the Protheans didn't create the synthetics that rebelled only goes to show how much Wall of Ignorance you are employing. The Catalyst was simply factually wrong. Organics and Synthetics are NOT destined to kill each other. The premise of his entire process is a lie.

see above... again.
No matter how many times you say "it's a lie", the evidence says "you are wrong".

Quarians create Geth. Quarians try to destroy Geth. Geth try to kill Quarians. Quarians try to destroy Geth. Geth try to kill the Quarians. DISMISS? Are you kidding? I EMBRACE it.
You are just a fucking idiot that thinks that because CMDR. Sheppard talked them out of it the last time, it somehow invalidates everything before.

That you insist we prove that "All organics and synthetics will always live in harmony!" only goes to show how completely dishonest your debating tactics are. We are not the ones making the assertion that you should genocide most organic life to "save" it because it is doomed to go to war with Synthetics. The Catalyst is the one who made that argument, which you are hailing as absolute truth. So your premise is already shitty even before we go to the fact that nothing justifies genocide, and all you're doing is to support creating a desert and call it peace.

Once again, PLEASE FIND WHERE I AGREE WITH THE AAI'S "SOLUTION". PLEASE SHOW WHERE I JUSTIFY GENOCIDE.
And actually YES YOU DO HAVE TO PROVE THEY GET ALONG AS THAT IS YOUR ASSERTION, DESPITE ALL EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY THAT I HAVE CITED MULTIPLE TIMES.

So really, stop trolling because you're a Nazi lover who supports genocide. There is a reason why you're in the 2% of the population of the ending. You're a fucking psycopath just like Little Hitler. And that's why everyone else would prefer the "Fuck Little Hitler" DLC.

Keep on pushing kid.

[Stofsk]

Zinegata, you're being a fuckwit. Calm the fuck down.

For the record, Stark has provided examples. He's pointed out how humans are FUCK YEAH new kid on the block, the council are full of shit, the endgame choice is literally 'sacrifice humans to save the council for the FUCK YEAH ending' or 'god aliens are stupid it would literally be better if we were in charge'.

It was one generalized example, and again are you denying that the Council didn't have good reason not to believe Shepard? And are you ignoring that even the Earth Alliance - save for Anderson and a few others - didn't believe Shepard?

They didn't have good reason to disbelieve Shepard - are you for real? The Council going 'haha Saren is totally fooling you Shepard' is one of the most contrived elements of ME and even ME2's story. It's up there with 'oh yeah only you talked to vigil so OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE LYING', which is up there with 'lol nobody recorded the conversation with Vigil despite EVERYONE CARRYING OMNITOOLS CAPABLE OF THIS FUNCTION' and 'haha lol teh geth created Sovereign because WHY NOT'.

Aliens are regularly depicted as stupid in ME and ME2. Or in particular, the Council is. Yet killing them is painted as the dark side option. The Citadel literally becomes fascist if you do. There are race riots and politicians can actively campaign on a 'anti-human' basis and nobody bats a fucking eyelash about it other than Captain Bailey and Shepard.

[Zinegata]

Given that you keep avoiding the question... Have you actually ever played Mass Effect 2?

And do you again deny that the Council had good reason to obstruct Shepard? Are you saying that it is conceivable for a modern-day government to listen to one agent recounting a 50,000 year old prophecy without further proof? Your conclusion to them not listening you is "They are racist alien bastards!"? That seems to reflect your prejudices rather than the game's.

Also, "creating a species to fight for you" is not what ME1 was about. The backstory of ME1 has this issue (The Krogans being "uplifted" by the Salarians), but it's only touched upon very briefly in Vimire (although it's important for the Krogan character Wrex, obviously)

Its real resolution comes in ME2 - as you actually go to Tuchanka and see the effects of the genophage, and it has a final resolution - one way or another - in ME3.

[Havok]

No, he hasn't played Mass Effect 2.
That hasn't stopped you from arguing about the Prothean DLC which you haven't played, dumb fuck.

[Stark]

Lol avoiding the question??? I've answered it. Hey Hav, did I play ME2 or not? :v

Chris hits on another theme that I guess ties in with ME3s ending - civilian control or politicians are stupid and narrow minded. Maybe that's why everyone keeps making AI that kill them. ME3 even shows the military being stupid, so maybe he message is that any large organisTion will always become stupid and short sighted.

[Zinegata]

Holy fucking shit, I haven't encountered this much stupidity in one person in AGES.
You linked to a scene with LITERALLY 5 WORDS that say "The X turned on the Y".

Why not? The words were this:

The Zha'til turned on the Zha.

And we DO know from the wiki that the Synthetic race that the Protheans fought are the Zha'til:

Eventually, the Protheans faced a hostile machine intelligence called the Zha'til which threatened to overwhelm them. To defeat the Zha'til, the Protheans decided to unite all of the galaxy's sentient organic life under their empire. Organic races that resisted the Protheans were soundly crushed. In time, each of the servant races assimilated into Prothean culture and came to think of themselves as Prothean. The Prothean Empire held its own against the Zha'til in a conflict known as the "Metacon War".

In short, the Protheans fought a Synthetic race created by someone else. My argument was not "The Protheans never fought synthetics". I said "The Protheans never fought their own creations". Why would I argue the former whenI actually cite the wiki states straight out they fought a hostile machine intelligence?

Tl;DR: You are employing wall of ignorance. "Zha'til turned on the Zha." is not irrelevant. It's states precisely who created the Zha'til - and that's not the Protheans. Therefore, the Protheans did not fight their own creations.

[Zinegata]

No, he hasn't played Mass Effect 2.

So you concede that Stark is indeed a moron arguing about a game that he has only half played. Concession accepted.

That hasn't stopped you from arguing about the Prothean DLC which you haven't played, dumb fuck.

Not really, I have never cited the Prothean DLC for proof until you brought it up. And the moment I did, you selectively ignore the clip I posted in favor of the clip you posted.

That is clearly cherry-picking and wall of ignorance. If you say using the Prothean DLC is canon, then everything Javik said is canon.

And again, Javik said "Zha'Til turned on the Zha". That means the Protheans did not create the Zha'Til. They were - as the wiki pointed out - created by someone else and the Protheans merely encountered them. Hence, the Protheans did not fight their own creation. Nothing in your clip contradicts this.

So really, all you're doing is to create your own version of the story, by cherry-picking the parts you like. In order for your position to be correct, you have to ignore my clip AND the wiki. By contrast, I can put my clip, your clip, and the wiki side by side and they will all remain consistent: The Zha'Til were created by a different race called the Zha. The Protheans fought them, but they were not its creators.

But you're never gonna admit this. Not surprising given how you apparently do this entirely to just troll.

[Stark]

Me2 is half of which game now?

[Zinegata]

Me2 is half of which game now?

Well, one third of the trilogy. But again, given that this is just a bunch of bullies trying to troll the hell out of the ME3 fans pissed at the ending, I'll just stop feeding your bullshit.

[Stark]

There's that backdown we expected, kids.

I think it's tilt bizarre that people actually talking about he content of the finale are bullies to you. Then again, your hysterics are all over the place, so maybe t shouldn't be too surprising.

I'm interested in how 2 & 3 portray organizations now. I mean I know about the hilarity of the Cerberus railroading, but there must be more.

[Zinegata]

They didn't have good reason to disbelieve Shepard - are you for real?

You DO remember that Shepard doesn't have ANY evidence aside from the visions he collected from the artifact, yes? And that the artifact went KAPUT after giving you the visions and thus no one else can see them?

OR that for most of the game you're not exactly sure WHAT the visions actually mean - so you spend much of the game trying to decipher them.

The Council going 'haha Saren is totally fooling you Shepard' is one of the most contrived elements of ME and even ME2's story. It's up there with 'oh yeah only you talked to vigil so OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE LYING', which is up there with 'lol nobody recorded the conversation with Vigil despite EVERYONE CARRYING OMNITOOLS CAPABLE OF THIS FUNCTION' and 'haha lol teh geth created Sovereign because WHY NOT'.

Saren was the most decorated war hero of the Spectres. You're literally the new guy. Of course they're gonna believe him over you initially.

The ME2 part is a bit more jarring though, yes. Just because Vigil went dark shouldn't overturn how OMG AN ALIEN BATTLESHIP CRASHED ON THE CITADEL. But again, even the Earth Alliance doesn't really believe you in ME2 either. So how does it show aliens as being more inherently stupid than humans?

Aliens are regularly depicted as stupid in ME and ME2. Or in particular, the Council is. Yet killing them is painted as the dark side option. The Citadel literally becomes fascist if you do.

Uh, yes. You're killing them for having a good reason not to believe you. Why is this NOT the Dark Side option again?

There are race riots and politicians can actively campaign on a 'anti-human' basis and nobody bats a fucking eyelash about it other than Captain Bailey and Shepard.

And did you miss how Miss Fox News was also trying to spin your words into anti-alien hate speech? There's a significant difference between a racist portrayal of aliens, and showing that there is racism on BOTH sides of the isle and that you can SHEPARD PUNCH them for being racist idiots.

I'm asking people to cite specific examples for a reason: For every instance of alien stupidity (i.e. Council not listening), there is an instance of human stupidity too (i.e. The Earth Alliance not listening). How you spin that into saying the game is "racist" as opposed to simply attempting to portray people as people seems like a problem with your perspective, not the game's treatment of aliens and humans

[Zinegata]

There's that backdown we expected, kids.

Can't resist another cheap shot can you? Well, bullies are like that.

[Stark]

You jut demanded Chris provide specific examples because you didn't like his specific examples. Who is the bully here? Who is the one with the preconceptions that cannot brook dissent?