The GOP's War on Women

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The GOP's War on Women

Post by UnderAGreySky »

I believe this current assault on women's rights in the US by the Geriatric Old Party deserves its own thread, as if we keep making a new thread for each time they decide to open another front, there won't be place for other news. Of course, it's for the mods to decide, but we can start with...

10 Reasons the Rest of the World Thinks the U.S. Is Nuts

(abridged quote)
1. Making women carry still-born fetuses to full term because cows and pigs do.

2. Consigning women to death to save a fetus. Abortions save women's lives. "Let women die" bills are happening all over the country.

3. Criminalizing pregnancy and miscarriages and arresting, imprisoning and charging women who miscarry with murder, like Rennie Gibbs in Mississippi or at least 40 other similar cases in Alabama or like Bei Bei Shuai, a woman who is now imprisoned, is charged with murder after trying to commit suicide while pregnant.

4. Forcing women to undergo involuntary vaginal penetration (otherwise called rape) with a condom-covered, six- to eight-inch ultrasound probe.

5. Disabling women or sacrificing their lives by either withholding medical treatment or forcing women to undergo involuntary medical procedures.

6. Giving zygotes "personhood" rights while systematically stripping women of their fundamental rights.

7. Inhibiting, humiliating and punishing women for their choices to have an abortion for any reason by levying taxes specifically on abortion, including abortions sought by rape victims to end their involuntary insemination, imposing restrictive requirements like 24 hour wait periods and empowering doctors to lie to female patients about their fetuses in order to avoid prosecution.

8. Allowing employers to delve into women's private lives and only pay for insurance when they agree, for religious reasons, with how she choses to use birth control.

9. Sacrificing women's overall health and the well-being of their families in order to stop them from exercising their fundamental human right to control their own bodies and reproduction. Texas just did that when it turned down $35million dollars in federal funds thereby ensuring that 300,000 low-income and uninsured Texas women will have no or greatly-reduced access to basic preventive and reproductive health care.

10. Depriving women of their ability to earn a living and support themselves and their families. Bills, like this one in Arizona, allow employers to fire women for using contraception. Women like these are being fired for not.
The full article is too long to reproduce here (no pun intended) but it contains citations for every claim plus a lot of commentary by the author. Of course some of it isn't fresh news, but the following is:

Tennessee bill mandates publication of abortion data
Doctors who perform abortions in Tennessee could see their names listed online, and women who undergo the procedures could be unintentionally identified under a bill pending in the state legislature.

State lawmakers are debating a measure that would require the Department of Health to publish more details about abortions, bringing Tennessee into a roiling, state-by-state battle over how to regulate abortion procedures.

Supporters say the bill, scheduled to come up Wednesday in a state House committee, only requires state health officials to post information online that they already collect. But critics say the measure is intended to intimidate women and doctors involved in abortions, even in emergency situations.

“I think publicizing this information will do nothing but cause serious consequences,” said state Rep. Gary Odom, D-Nashville. “This is dangerous. This is a dangerous piece of legislation.”

Known as the Life Defense Act of 2012, or House Bill 3808, the measure gives Tennessee lawmakers a rare opportunity to tighten regulations on abortion, which the Tennessee Supreme Court ruled in 2000 is a right protected by the state constitution.

That ruling has kept Tennessee lawmakers from considering controversial proposals floated elsewhere in the nation, such as a new law in Virginia going into effect July 1 that will require women to receive an ultrasound before abortions. Similar measures have passed in Oklahoma, North Carolina and Texas, although court challenges to them are pending.

The Life Defense Act contains two parts. The first would require doctors to have admitting privileges at a hospital near where they perform abortions, while the second would require the Department of Health to release more information on abortions, including the name of the doctor who performed the procedure and demographics about the women who receive them.

The measure’s sponsor, Rep. Matthew Hill, R-Jonesborough, said at an initial hearing on the bill earlier this month that the reporting requirement writes into law a form that the Department of Health already asks providers to fill out whenever they perform an abortion.

“The Department of Health already collects all of the data, but they don’t publish it,” he said. “All we’re asking is that the data they already collect be made public.”

Hill said the bill was suggested by Tennessee Right to Life, an anti-abortion group. Brian Harris, the group’s president, said the bill would give people better information about abortion in Tennessee.

“I think it’s fair for folks on both sides to see how prevalent abortion is in our counties and in our communities,” he said.
Concerns cited

The Tennessee Medical Association and Planned Parenthood, meanwhile, have expressed several concerns about the bill.

They say the reports required by the measure could be used to identify women who have abortions.

The bill would require the publication of data — including the age, race, education and number of children — of women who receive abortions. The Department of Health reports such information, but it aggregates the data by region, making it impossible for others to figure out who underwent an abortion procedure.

The Life Defense Act attempts to protect patient privacy by requiring state health officials to keep the names of those who receive abortions private.

But the bill also requires the Department of Health to release patient data broken down by county. Critics say that could reveal the identities of some women who receive abortions, particularly in small, rural communities.

“We have many small counties in the state,” Odom said. “There’s going to be circumstances where that woman’s going to be identified in that county.”

The bill also could endanger doctors who perform abortions, opponents say. For the first time, state health officials would have to gather the names of doctors who perform abortion procedures. That information could be used by abortion opponents to target those doctors, foes of the bill say.

Abortion specialists are not the only doctors who would have to submit such information. Opponents say other practitioners, such as obstetricians who perform abortion procedures during emergencies or miscarriages, would also have to report their involvement.

“In an environment where doctors are victims of violence — and we’ve had physicians who provide abortion care murdered in the past few years — I think this is an attempt to intimidate and allow for providers to be terrorized,” said Jeff Teague, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of Middle and East Tennessee.

But Harris said the bill would not make the reporting requirements for abortion any more extensive than for other medical procedures.

“Abortion should not be treated any different than any other health practice in the state,” he said. “That’s all we’re asking for.”
Debate postponed

The bill cleared a House subcommittee March 6 by an 8-5 vote along party lines. But Hill put off debate in the House Health and Human Resources Committee last week.

Hill said he plans to bring the bill up on Wednesday. He also said he plans to address opponents’ concerns at that meeting, but he declined to comment further, saying potential changes are still being worked out.

Greg Zelizer, director of government affairs for the Tennessee Medical Association, expressed confidence that the changes would head off some of the opponents’ fears.

“I’ve talked to Matthew, and he understands the difficulty,” Zelizer said last week. “In no way does he or those who brought this legislation want harm to come to anybody.”
With every passing day, I've been more and more disgusted with this. I'm not even American. Any right thinking person has no reason to let the GOP within touching distance of the reins of power in the US. And I'm not even sure ignorance is an acceptable excuse for any woman voting for the GOP.

If this makes me sound angry, I am. "Life Defense Act, indeed." :finger:
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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Its interesting to note that according to one poll, opinions on restricting abortion are the same for men and women (and in fact slightly higher albeit within the margin of error for completely banning abortion).
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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4. Forcing women to undergo involuntary vaginal penetration (otherwise called rape) with a condom-covered, six- to eight-inch ultrasound probe.
Actually it's assault and battery, not rape. But kudos on the inflammatory language to induce a vision of 'rape'. Hell, I'm firmly on your side of the argument, but that statement is blatant emotional manipulation, which irritates me.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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They're being forced to have their vaginas penetrated. What else would you call it?
General Mung Beans wrote:Its interesting to note that according to one poll, opinions on restricting abortion are the same for men and women (and in fact slightly higher albeit within the margin of error for completely banning abortion).
Yes, Americans have continued, on the average, to hold the belief that abortion is personally distasteful but should be legal regardless despite the continuous efforts of antichoice groups to change things. Of course, in the process, millions of women have had their rights infringed upon by things like the Hyde Amendment and parental consent laws, so while they haven't made any bold victories in the war on sexual freedom, they've managed to chip away at it.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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Knife wrote:
4. Forcing women to undergo involuntary vaginal penetration (otherwise called rape) with a condom-covered, six- to eight-inch ultrasound probe.
Actually it's assault and battery, not rape. But kudos on the inflammatory language to induce a vision of 'rape'. Hell, I'm firmly on your side of the argument, but that statement is blatant emotional manipulation, which irritates me.
Depends on the jurisdictions. In some places in the US rape requires penile penetration. In others, ANY involuntary penetration, whether from body parts or from inanimate objects, could be classified as rape (or sexual assault) under the right circumstances.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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Broomstick wrote:Depends on the jurisdictions. In some places in the US rape requires penile penetration. In others, ANY involuntary penetration, whether from body parts or from inanimate objects, could be classified as rape (or sexual assault) under the right circumstances.
SERIOUSLY?

There are some states where, if a man puts anything except a penis in a woman's vagina (or another person's anus) without consent it will not be called rape? How fucked up is that?

I'm glad Doonesbury took the issue to the comics last week. I'm not surprised many papers - including the Miami Herald - did not run the strip.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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4. Forcing women to undergo involuntary vaginal penetration (otherwise called rape) with a condom-covered, six- to eight-inch ultrasound probe.
Actually it's assault and battery, not rape. But kudos on the inflammatory language to induce a vision of 'rape'. Hell, I'm firmly on your side of the argument, but that statement is blatant emotional manipulation, which irritates me.
Depends on the jurisdictions. In some places in the US rape requires penile penetration. In others, ANY involuntary penetration, whether from body parts or from inanimate objects, could be classified as rape (or sexual assault) under the right circumstances.
This is a nitpick, but it's been bothering me... I think the mandatory ultrasound laws are ridiculous and wrong, but no one is "forcing" women to undergo transvaginal ultrasound any more than Obama is "forcing" Catholic churches to buy contraceptives. I mean, it's not like cops are pulling random women off the street and giving them transvaginal ultrasounds on the spot. I'm pretty sure the law only applies to women seeking an abortion, and (thankfully, at least for now) I think women can circumvent the ultrasound by having the abortion done in another state.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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I love the one about publishing the medical data. A few years ago republicans were having a fit because papers were publishing the same information about concealed weapon permit holders in some states.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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kc8tbe wrote:This is a nitpick, but it's been bothering me... I think the mandatory ultrasound laws are ridiculous and wrong, but no one is "forcing" women to undergo transvaginal ultrasound any more than Obama is "forcing" Catholic churches to buy contraceptives. I mean, it's not like cops are pulling random women off the street and giving them transvaginal ultrasounds on the spot. I'm pretty sure the law only applies to women seeking an abortion, and (thankfully, at least for now) I think women can circumvent the ultrasound by having the abortion done in another state.
It might be legal, but morally it is still rape. Coerced consent for the explicit purpose of shame isn't consent. Morally it is rape pure and simple.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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I actually agree that it is rape. Institutionalized rape, really. My nitpick is, the language being used to describe the rape is hyperbolic and fails to describe the scale and context of the rape. While the USA may not be an ideal place for women to live right now, it's much better than, say, Egypt where police virginity tests mean that the phrase, "Forcing women to undergo involuntary vaginal penetration..." can be used without qualification. I would rather the quote had read, "Women needing an abortion would be forced to undergo involuntary vaginal penetration..." and clarified whether or not there are exceptions for rape, incest, health of the mother, etc.

Nitpick out of the way, the point of the HuffPost piece is to draw attention to the issue. So perhaps hyperbolic language is precisely what's needed.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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great first waterboarding and now this should they start wearing red hats and holding auto-fe-faes?
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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kc8tbe wrote: is a nitpick, but it's been bothering me... I think the mandatory ultrasound laws are ridiculous and wrong, but no one is "forcing" women to undergo transvaginal ultrasound any more than Obama is "forcing" Catholic churches to buy contraceptives. I mean, it's not like cops are pulling random women off the street and giving them transvaginal ultrasounds on the spot. I'm pretty sure the law only applies to women seeking an abortion, and (thankfully, at least for now) I think women can circumvent the ultrasound by having the abortion done in another state.
Which is nice... except for women who won't be able to travel to another state at a moment's notice, can't afford to travel that far, won't be able to get time off from work to do so, and who are unlucky enough to live next to another state with the same bullshit law designed specifically to throw up barriers to the right to an abortion. So when you're given no choice except to have the object-rape to get an abortion, you ARE being forced to undergo object-rape. And no, cops aren't pulling random women off the street to probe them, but what the fuck does that have to do with anything? The law is still oppressive and still designed with the object of denying the constitutional rights guaranteed through the Roe decision through legislative intimidation.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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I said it before and I said it again: if laws like these pass, then there WILL be illegal abortions, there WILL be a black market for birth control, contraception, and the like, and there WILL be civil disobedience all over the place (right-minded doctors won't perform the dildo-rape but will falsify documents saying they did, for example. Do no harm and all that).

The entire thing is just like Prohibition but even worse. The GOP might as well have mandated that everyone is not allowed to piss except during evenings.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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The doonesbury comics (5 i think) start here: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2012/03/12

it's the way the doctor is forced to do it that hit home. it's the woman who's being sexually assaulted, but forcing a professional through that bullshit is corrosive to the soul too.

The entire thing is just evil. simple evil.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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I'm very disgusted at the "Let women die" bills, myself. If that was strictly followed, both of my aunts, and also probably my grandmother (same side of the family), would currently be dead. How does their thought process go? "Of course, if a woman didn't want to have a miscarriage and die she could try to not have sex outside of marriage, have sex in a marriage, want to be a mother..."

Wait, what can she try to not do? The next thought that comes to mind is: "Your wife is dying from a nonviable pregnancy. No, we won't allow the doctors to save her life."

Or, how about #10 on that list? Yes, different states, but: a) "A woman can be fired for taking birth control as a contraceptive", b) "a woman can be fired for being pregnant." Combined, you get: a+b) "A woman can be fired for having sex." I also note how it doesn't matter if she's married or not (I get the impression that most of these people are against premarital sex, so I imagine these regulations/lack of regulations are mainly targeted at unmarried women). I can only conclude they think that either: 1) Married women belong at home with the kids, or 2) Don't have sex. Ever. Exception: If, for some mysterious reason, she wants to bear children, see (1).

For even more fun: Mix the two topics above! Women aren't allowed to have sex, ever. Unless she's trying for a baby. But then she's not allowed to work. If the pregnancy suffers fatal complications, we won't let the doctors save her.

I find it very hard to avoid the conclusion that people like these see women as little more than chattel.

(I've had to delete many lines of tasteless "parody" of their thinking that I've typed up and thought better of.)
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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UnderAGreySky wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Depends on the jurisdictions. In some places in the US rape requires penile penetration. In others, ANY involuntary penetration, whether from body parts or from inanimate objects, could be classified as rape (or sexual assault) under the right circumstances.
SERIOUSLY?

There are some states where, if a man puts anything except a penis in a woman's vagina (or another person's anus) without consent it will not be called rape? How fucked up is that? .
It's listed as type of assault and typically has the exact same penalties as "official" rape. Note, too, that under some definitions/jurisdictions men can never be raped simply because they don't have a vagina to be violated. (For decades, the FBI definition of rape required vaginal penetration, they classified male rape as a form of assault, not rape). The problem is that the laws used definitions or were written encoding the attitudes of several generations ago. In practice, it's a splitting of hairs and up until now the exact phrasing hasn't made much practical difference (there are exceptions, but they are rare) because those convicted got more or less the same sentences whichever technical definition was used - but if this crowd gets into power it certainly could be used in a way I think most of us would consider repulsive.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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Psawhn wrote:I'm very disgusted at the "Let women die" bills, myself. If that was strictly followed, both of my aunts, and also probably my grandmother (same side of the family), would currently be dead. How does their thought process go? "Of course, if a woman didn't want to have a miscarriage and die she could try to not have sex outside of marriage, have sex in a marriage, want to be a mother..."

Wait, what can she try to not do? The next thought that comes to mind is: "Your wife is dying from a nonviable pregnancy. No, we won't allow the doctors to save her life."
That IS the official Roman Catholic stance you know - no abortions, ever, not even to save the mother's life. With Santorum's statements implying he'd take his marching orders from the Pope I really don't want him as PotUS.
Or, how about #10 on that list? Yes, different states, but: a) "A woman can be fired for taking birth control as a contraceptive", b) "a woman can be fired for being pregnant." Combined, you get: a+b) "A woman can be fired for having sex." I also note how it doesn't matter if she's married or not (I get the impression that most of these people are against premarital sex, so I imagine these regulations/lack of regulations are mainly targeted at unmarried women). I can only conclude they think that either: 1) Married women belong at home with the kids, or 2) Don't have sex. Ever. Exception: If, for some mysterious reason, she wants to bear children, see (1).
Again - it's a Christian position, specifically those of Catholics and some of the more extreme Protestants.
I find it very hard to avoid the conclusion that people like these see women as little more than chattel.
Well... yeah. It's a very old attitude. It's why in the bad old days women weren't allowed to own property in their own names - being property themselves. And a bunch of other old, bullshit laws that used to be on the books and now have been mostly eradicated. Unfortunately, the attitudes are still around.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

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kc8tbe wrote:This is a nitpick, but it's been bothering me... I think the mandatory ultrasound laws are ridiculous and wrong, but no one is "forcing" women to undergo transvaginal ultrasound any more than Obama is "forcing" Catholic churches to buy contraceptives. I mean, it's not like cops are pulling random women off the street and giving them transvaginal ultrasounds on the spot. I'm pretty sure the law only applies to women seeking an abortion, and (thankfully, at least for now) I think women can circumvent the ultrasound by having the abortion done in another state.
The part that I have emphasised is *not* the issue. When the woman wants an abortion, something is going to be inserted into her vagina without her consent. That is rape. What is conventionally thought of as "rape" (i.e. a criminal violation) also involves assault and battery (or in the case of date-rape, using criminal means to subject the victim to sexual assault).

And "getting it done in another state" is not always an option. Subjecting a rape victim to a day's journey to some different state, or making her wait for 24 hours or worse - making her go to a different state and then make her wait there for 24 hours thanks to multiple vile laws is disgusting. And then there is the question of medical emergencies - if a pregnancy goes bad and the mother's life is about to be lost if the procedure is not carried out, do you want them to have to cross state lines or wait 24 hours or go to the nearest ER?

Which brings me to the latest salvo in the war:

N.H. House OKs restrictions on abortion
Thursday March 15, 2012

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) -- New Hampshire’s House passed a trio of bills Wednesday limiting abortions, including one that would make pregnant women wait 24 hours and certify they had been given information on fetal development before getting an abortion.

The House voted 189-151 on the 24-hour wait bill that also requires that the women receive explicit information about the fetus and an opportunity to view a video on the issue.

The House also voted 224-110 to ban partial-birth abortions, which are already prohibited under federal law.

Another bill passed 204-133 that would change the timing for judges to decide whether a minor can have an abortion if she wants to obtain one without notifying her parents. New Hampshire’s two-month-old parental notification law currently requires judges to issue rulings in such cases within 48 hours. The bill, a proposed amendment to the law, would allow such rulings to be issued within two court business days.

The bills now go to the Senate, where their fate is uncertain.

The Legislature traditionally rejected limits on abortion with one exception -- enactment of a parental notification law in 2003 that was never implemented and was later repealed by Democrats. Republicans overrode Gov. John Lynch’s veto of a similar bill last year and it took effect in January. Lynch, who supports abortion rights, has not said if he would veto the three bills.

Abortion opponents say
the 24-hour wait ensures women give "informed consent" after seeing descriptive pictures of a fetus and a video, but opponents say it is insulting to require women to wait and would be required to undergo biased counseling.

Supporters of the bill argued women have a right to be provided with all the information necessary to make a decision they might later regret.

"Informed consent is a must to good health care," said Rep. Lenette Peterson, R-Merrimack.

The bill would require a doctor or someone qualified to discuss the issue to tell the woman about the procedure, medical risks, alternatives, the fetus’ probable gestational age, the fetus’ probable anatomical and physiological characteristics, medical risks of carrying the baby to term and that medical and financial assistance may be available if she chooses instead to have the baby.

The state would be required to publish such information for distribution and create a video for a state-maintained website.

The woman could not have the abortion until 24 hours after being supplied with the information and allowed to view the video. She also would have to certify in writing before receiving the abortion that she has reviewed the materials.

Opponents argue that’s insulting to women and that the information is biased.

"Since when does the government force women to listen to information they might not want to hear?" said Rep. Rick Watrous, D-Concord.

Violating the law would be a felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison.

The bill also calls for extensive statistical reports to be filed with the state that include the number of abortions, any medical problems and the fetus’ state of development.

Thirty-two states have similar laws and 15, including New Hampshire, are considering counseling requirements, ac cor ding to NARAL Pro-Choice America.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

Post by Lagmonster »

UnderAGreySky wrote:The part that I have emphasised is *not* the issue. When the woman wants an abortion, something is going to be inserted into her vagina without her consent. That is rape.
It's reasonable to agree that it's wrong that a woman should have such a mandatory prerequisite to abortion in the first place, but I have a problem with the emphasis you're placing on using that label.

To say that it absolutely must be called rape equally infantilizes women by telling them how to feel about it. Maybe the woman doesn't see it as that big a deal, maybe she wants to go through with it, maybe she hates it but has been a violent rape victim and doesn't agree with associating both experiences with the same label. I don't think you or I get to tell someone, 'you were raped, whether you agree that you were or not', or 'you can't choose to be okay with this'. It's important to realize that you have an opinion to present, not a tidy definition to settle.

And it being an opinion, I wouldn't feel right saying that the doctor raped me. Making it rape makes the doctor at best an involuntary rapist and to me that more than strongly belittles the term. But that's part of my opinion; I would never want to have to hang a criminal label on a doctor who may equally be operating in protest of the law, for what I see as 'unjust and dis-empowering social control' rather than 'sexually motivated assault'.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

Post by Broomstick »

Is it rape if the woman wants to keep a baby and there is a need to use a trans-vaginal ultrasound probe?

Is swabbing body orifices to collect evidence after a rape another rape?

You have to be careful with labeling medical testing/procedures as "rape" in any and all context. It could be, but isn't inherently so.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

Post by Lost Soal »

You've missed one, at least in this thread.
Kansas seeks to add Sales Tax to abortion procedures and force the doctor to tell the patient that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer when there isn't.

Link
The sweeping anti-abortion bill working its way through the Kansas Legislature would levy a sales tax on women seeking abortions, including rape victims.

Buried in the 69-page bill being considered by the House Federal and State Affairs Committee are several provisions, in fact, that opponents say would increase taxes on those who seek abortions. The tax sections do not include exemptions for women who want an abortion after a sexual assault or to end a life-threatening pregnancy.

The committee is likely to continue discussing the bill Thursday afternoon.

Under the proposal, women who end up receiving abortions would not be able to deduct the cost of the abortion as a health care expense if they had not purchased special abortion insurance, said Sarah Gillooly of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri.

Last year, Kansas enacted a law removing abortion coverage from health insurance plans in general. Women can purchase a special rider to cover the procedure in advance of a pregnancy.

The bill would also levy a sales tax on abortion procedures, including those performed for rape victims, according to both Gillooly and Rep. Sean Gatewood (D-Topeka), the bill's leading opponent. The Kansas Department of Revenue's website says the state has a 6.3-percent sales tax.

Rep. Lance Kinzer (R-Olathe), the sponsor of the bill, did not return a call for comment. A Kinzer staffer said he rarely speaks to the press.

Among other provisions in the proposed legislation are measures allowing doctors to withhold from patients medical information that might encourage them to seek an abortion and prohibiting malpractice suits if the woman or the child suffers a health complication as a result of information being withheld. A wrongful death lawsuit could be filed if the mother dies. The bill also would require doctors to tell women that abortion causes breast cancer and would prohibit state employees from performing abortions on the job.

Language in the bill that could jeopardize the accreditation of the OB-GYN residency program at the University of Kansas Medical Center is unlikely to be amended during the committee's hearing Thursday.

Gillooly predicted the bill would create multiple enforcement issues for the Revenue Department. She said that the abortion deduction ban would allow state auditors to demand individuals' medical records in order to check that deductions were not being claimed for abortion procedures, which she said would violate medical privacy laws.

In addition, Gillooly suggested that the state could end up levying a sales tax on birth control as well under the provision. "How does Walgreens tax abortion medication and not birth control?" she asked rhetorically.

Opponents have asked that the bill be considered by the House Taxation Committee as well, because the federal affairs panel does not have tax expertise. But Rep. Gatewood, who serves on both committees, said it's unlikely that will happen. The Federal and State Affairs Committee deals with a host of issues including abortion, bingo licenses, immigration, land surveying, strip clubs and alcohol.

Rep. Steve Brunk (R-Wichita), chairman of the federal affairs panel, did not return a call for comment.

Gatewood said that if he and others in the House can't stop the bill, they hope the state Senate, which is controlled by a more moderate Republican faction, can stop it. Gov. Sam Brownback (R) has told HuffPost that he will sign the bill.

"Basic life-saving stuff, they can't use their insurance on. It is not birth control. It is a matter of life and death," Gatewood said. "I don't know what these people are thinking or if they're thinking."

Update: 3:19 p.m. -- The Federal and State Affairs Committee of the Kansas House has postponed discussion of the abortion bill until Monday.

Rep. Gatewood said that Chairman Brunk announced at the start of Thursday afternoon's committee meeting that the delay will allow legislators more time to review the University of Kansas Medical Center accreditation issue and to draft possible amendments on the issue. Gatewood said that the committee meeting instead will focus primarily on alcohol-related bills, including one to legalize wine tastings in the state.

CORRECTION: An earlier version of this story stated incorrectly that the tax sections of the anti-abortion bill would cover a procedure to remove the remains of a fetus following a miscarriage. In fact, such a procedure is not defined as an abortion for purposes of the Kansas tax code.
One other part about this.
would prohibit state employees from performing abortions on the job.
What the hell does this mean?
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

Post by Knife »

Lagmonster wrote:
UnderAGreySky wrote:The part that I have emphasised is *not* the issue. When the woman wants an abortion, something is going to be inserted into her vagina without her consent. That is rape.
It's reasonable to agree that it's wrong that a woman should have such a mandatory prerequisite to abortion in the first place, but I have a problem with the emphasis you're placing on using that label.

To say that it absolutely must be called rape equally infantilizes women by telling them how to feel about it. Maybe the woman doesn't see it as that big a deal, maybe she wants to go through with it, maybe she hates it but has been a violent rape victim and doesn't agree with associating both experiences with the same label. I don't think you or I get to tell someone, 'you were raped, whether you agree that you were or not', or 'you can't choose to be okay with this'. It's important to realize that you have an opinion to present, not a tidy definition to settle.

And it being an opinion, I wouldn't feel right saying that the doctor raped me. Making it rape makes the doctor at best an involuntary rapist and to me that more than strongly belittles the term. But that's part of my opinion; I would never want to have to hang a criminal label on a doctor who may equally be operating in protest of the law, for what I see as 'unjust and dis-empowering social control' rather than 'sexually motivated assault'.
This is pretty much my feelings on the matter. It is an unjustifiable extra procedure the patient must do to get the procedure they want, but that's not rape, nor is it against her will. The patient would have to consent to the procedure before it's done, granted if they say no, they don't get the actual procedure they want. But that's not rape. I agree the trans vaginal probe is a ridiculous hoop to jump through, and that it is there to discourage the woman from getting the abortion. Still doesn't make it rape.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

Post by Anguirus »

Is it rape if the woman wants to keep a baby and there is a need to use a trans-vaginal ultrasound probe?
No, because there's consent.
Is swabbing body orifices to collect evidence after a rape another rape?
No, if there's consent.

For fuck's sake.
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

Post by Serafina »

Broomstick wrote:Is it rape if the woman wants to keep a baby and there is a need to use a trans-vaginal ultrasound probe?

Is swabbing body orifices to collect evidence after a rape another rape?

You have to be careful with labeling medical testing/procedures as "rape" in any and all context. It could be, but isn't inherently so.
No, you fucking DON'T have to be careful about that.

If those things are done without consent, they are NOT medical procedures! Doctors do NOT have the right to treat a patient against his or her will, even in a life-threatening situation - they certainly don't have a right to do any of the above without the patients consent.

Nobody is defining the medical procedure vaginal ultrasounds as rape. We're defining probing someone with an ultrasound probe against her consent as rape. If a doctor were to snatch a woman off the street, drug her and then bind her to the chair before shoving an ultrasound probe up her vagina, it wouldn't be a medical procedure either - it'd be rape. If a doctor pressures a woman and threatens her with life-changing consequences (carrying a baby to term against her will) before shoving an ultrasound probe up her vagina, it's not a medical procedure - it's rape.


Really, the concept of consent shouldn't be that hard to understand :banghead:
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Re: The GOP's War on Women

Post by UnderAGreySky »

Thank you, Anguirus and Serafina. I thought I was being dense.

Yes, Broomstick and Lagmonster: I consider any invasion of a sexual orifice without the consent of the victim as rape. Take swabs for medical reasons is done with consent just as much do surgeons that perform surgery; consent is only waived if there is an immediate threat to the life of the person at the receiving end (i.e. taking a swab or cutting open an accident victim).

The only thing I'll concede is
Lagmonster wrote:I wouldn't feel right saying that the doctor raped me. Making it rape makes the doctor at best an involuntary rapist and to me that more than strongly belittles the term. But that's part of my opinion; I would never want to have to hang a criminal label on a doctor who may equally be operating in protest of the law, for what I see as 'unjust and dis-empowering social control' rather than 'sexually motivated assault'.
Yes, I would call the _state_ the rapist and the doctor and the probe would both be just accessories.
Knife wrote:It is an unjustifiable extra procedure the patient must do to get the procedure they want, but that's not rape, nor is it against her will. The patient would have to consent to the procedure before it's done, granted if they say no, they don't get the actual procedure they want. But that's not rape. I agree the trans vaginal probe is a ridiculous hoop to jump through, and that it is there to discourage the woman from getting the abortion. Still doesn't make it rape.
The bolded bit is basically blackmail or coercion because there is NO medical reason for it to be done as a mandated procedure. Sure, if the qualified medical professional says "we're worried about X, Y or Z and a T-V ultrasound is the best way to confirm", it's on full faith. But mandating it? Note that this would have to be performed on rape victims and the would-be parents who have lost a child in the womb.
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