Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/world ... ml?_r=1&hp
Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France
Bruno Martin/Associated Press

Police officers at the site of a shooting at a Jewish school on Monday in Toulouse, France.
By SCOTT SAYARE and STEVEN ERLANGER
Published: March 19, 2012

TOULOUSE, France — A man opened fire outside a Jewish school in southwest France on Monday morning, killing four people, three of them children, and wounding another, officials said. It was the third killing of unarmed people in the region in little over a week, and the police said the same gun was used in all three attacks.



Witnesses said that a man fled the scene in Toulouse on a motorbike. Last week, a man on a motorbike killed three French paratroopers and critically wounded another in two separate shootings, police officials said. The soldiers were all Arab or black, but were paratroopers from a unit that fought in Afghanistan. According to the police, the gunman initially used a 9-millimeter weapon, but it jammed, so he switched to a .45-caliber gun as he went into the school. The .45-caliber weapon was the one the police said was used to shoot the paratroopers last week.

There has been no claim of responsibility for any of the murders, which the French police are treating as acts of terrorism.

Michel Valet, the local prosecutor, said a rabbi, his two children and another child were killed in the attack and a 17-year-old boy was seriously wounded. The killer “shot at everything he could see, children and adults, and some children were chased into the school,” Mr. Valet said.

The attack is the worst on Jews in France since 1982, when the Chez Jo Goldenberg restaurant in Paris was bombed at lunchtime, killing six people and wounding 22. In 1980, a terrorist group threw a bomb at a Jewish synagogue on Rue Copernic in Paris, killing four people and wounding about 40.

Monday’s shooting brought a climate of fear to the region, with the French state ordering increased surveillance of all religious schools. It also brought immediate condemnations from President Nicolas Sarkozy and from his main rival for the French presidency, François Hollande, both of whom broke off their political campaigns to rush to the scene.

Uniformed police officers were seen leading away stunned survivors after the early morning attack. Other officers set up barricades and sealed off the entrance to the school, located behind high white walls with security cameras at the entrance.

Mr. Sarkozy arrived in Toulouse late Monday morning with officials and Jewish leaders. He called the shooting a “national tragedy” and ordered a minute’s silence to be observed across France on Tuesday at 11 a.m.

The Israeli press identified Monday’s victims as Rabbi Jonathan Sandler and two of his sons, Arye, 6, and Gabriel, 3. The fourth person killed was Miriam Monsonego, 8, who is the daughter of the school principal, Yaacov Monsonego. Rabbi Sandler came to Toulouse from Jerusalem with his family last September to teach religious studies at the school. The Israeli Foreign Ministry said the rabbi was a French citizen but that his wife was Israeli and that their children had dual nationality.

Another student, 17, a boy, was said to be wounded and in critical condition at a local hospital.

The French minister of the interior, Claude Guéant, said he was “submerged with emotion” over this “act of anti-Semitism” and ordered the police to intensify security around Jewish schools, according to a press spokesman. France has some 300 Jewish schools, news reports said.

Later, Prime Minister François Fillon was quoted as saying the enhanced security measures would be broadened to include all schools and religious buildings.

The Interior Ministry spokesman, Pierre-Henry Brandet, said the shootings occurred outside the Jewish school Ozar Hatorah. Ozar Hatorah is a Jewish society promoting religious education among young people, especially in the Middle East, northern Africa and among the Sephardic Jewish community in France, which has the largest number of Jews in Europe, estimated to be at least 550,000. A promotional video posted in 2010 showed students engaged in academic and religious studies.

The authorities have been hunting for the gunman who killed the soldiers since last week, and the military has told soldiers not to wear their uniforms in public.

The wave of killings has stunned France, prompting tense speculation about its cause. Even before the shooting on Monday, there was discussion about a possible racial or ethnic component to the attacks.

“There is a common point to all the victims of this dark series of cold-blooded murders: they are all related to communities,” including both Muslims and Jews, wrote Pierre Haski in a posting Monday on the Rue89 news Web site. “Whether they wore the uniform of the French Army or were children, their ‘difference’ made them targets.”

Speculation over the motives for the killings ranged from anger at Muslims fighting in Afghanistan and anti-Semitism to a hatred of immigrants.

Condemnation of the killings was general. In Jerusalem, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel condemned the “despicable murder of Jews, including small children,” as “a savage crime.” Speaking to his Likud party, he said: “It is too early to determine exactly what the background to the murderous act was, but we certainly cannot rule out the option that it was motivated by violent and murderous anti-Semitism.”

Scott Sayare reported from Toulouse, France, and Steven Erlanger from Paris. Alan Cowell contributed reporting from London.
Another terrible tragedy... :( My condolences to the families of the dead.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by kc8tbe »

My Grandma, who is Jewish, often complains that France is an European bastion of anti-semitism. I don't know how true that is, but an event like this certainly doesn't help the country's image.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Well, looks like they found the guy, because French police are now in a shootout/barricade situation with a suspect who has self proclaimed links to the terrorist group Forca lesa, which is buddy buddy with Al Qaeda.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17446999
21 March 2012 Last updated at 01:44 ET
Police in pre-dawn raid on Toulouse shooting suspect
French police searching for a gunman who shot dead four people at a Jewish school in Toulouse have surrounded a house in the north of the city.
The man inside the building where the operation is taking place has claimed affiliation to al-Qaeda, Interior Minister Claude Gueant told reporters.
Two police officers are reported injured in several exchanges of fire.
The man's mother has been brought to the scene, Mr Gueant said, and his brother is under arrest.
"The suspect's mother... was asked to make contact with her son, to reason with him, but she did not want to, saying she had little influence on him," Mr Gueant said.
Mr Gueant told French TV that the man informed police he wanted to "avenge Palestinian children".
The suspect also denounced French "crimes" in Afghanistan.
"He [the suspect] was in the DCRI's sights, as were others, after the first two attacks," an unnamed official told Agence France-Presse, referring to France's domestic intelligence service.
"Then the criminal investigation police brought in crucial evidence," the official added.
Police wearing helmets and flak jackets have cordoned off the residential area of Toulouse where the raid is happening, an eyewitness told the Liberation newspaper.
Prosecutors said other operations were underway to track down possible accomplices.
Other emergency services are also in attendance.
A huge manhunt has been under way in France amid fears the killer may strike again, after Monday's shooting, and the killing of three soldiers last week.
Funerals
Meanwhile, the funerals of the rabbi and three children killed in Monday's attack are due in Jerusalem in the coming hours.
Israeli police said they expected thousands of people to attend.
Also on Wednesday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy is to attend a memorial service for three soldiers killed in two attacks last week which police have linked to the Toulouse shootings.
The same gun and the same scooter were used in all the attacks. All three soldiers killed were of North African descent. Another soldier from the French overseas region of Guadeloupe was left critically ill.
The attacker gunned down Jonathan Sandler, a 30-year-old rabbi and teacher of religion, his two young sons Arieh and Gabriel and then - at point blank range - the head teacher's daughter, seven-year-old Myriam Monsonego, in Monday's attack at a Jewish school in Toulouse.
Their bodies were carried out of Ozar Hatorah school on Tuesday in two black hearses and taken to a nearby airport, reported AFP.
A military jet then flew them to Paris, from where they were placed on a commercial flight to Tel Aviv, AFP said. They have now arrived in Israel.
French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe was to accompany the relatives of the dead to the funerals in Jerusalem.
Mr Sarkozy and the Socialist presidential candidate Francois Hollande will attend the memorial service in Montauban for the three soldiers killed in last week's attacks.
Marine Le Pen, the leader of the far-right Front National, will also be at the service.
She is often associated with the more controversial debates on immigration and her presence will be closely observed in light of recent events, reports the BBC's Christian Fraser in Toulouse.
Scarlet alert
On Tuesday schools across France held a moment's silence to remember the victims of the killer, whom President France Sarkozy branded a "monster".
It is the first time in the country's history that the national terror alert has been raised to "scarlet", its highest level.
The measure enables the authorities to disrupt daily life and implement sweeping security measures. These include mixed police-military patrols and powers to suspend public transport and close schools.
Mr Gueant has said the killer had a camera strapped to his chest and may have filmed the shootings.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Count Chocula »

Is this waste of oxygen dead yet? I coulda sworn the French gendarmes carry subguns.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by weemadando »

Given that the reports earlier today was that they were looking for 3 paratroopers from the same unit as those killed who had recently been dishonourably discharged for being members of a Neo-Nazi org, rushing in shooting is probably the dumbest option out there.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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The gendarmes have surrounded a house with ONE MAN in it who claims AQ affiliation. What TF do the neo-Nazi French paratroops have to do with the one guy who murdered a man and three children? Kill his ass dead.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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Quit being an Internet tough guy and start to realize that police procedure in pretty much all of Europe is to try and save everybody's life.

EDIT: Also, intel. If he is dead, he is of no use.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Count Chocula »

So their goal is to "safely" bring a murderer into custody, when he's already injured two policemen in "an exchange of gunfire." How many good people's lives is it worth to arrest this asshole? He shot three children and an adult at point blank range. At what point, per "police procedure in pretty much all of Europe," does trying to take him alive become counterproductive?
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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Count Chocula wrote:So their goal is to "safely" bring a murderer into custody, when he's already injured two policemen in "an exchange of gunfire." How many good people's lives is it worth to arrest this asshole? He shot three children and an adult at point blank range. At what point, per "police procedure in pretty much all of Europe," does trying to take him alive become counterproductive?
As soon as there is no chance of him being arrested or as soon as the risk becomes too great.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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weemadando wrote:Given that the reports earlier today was that they were looking for 3 paratroopers from the same unit as those killed who had recently been dishonourably discharged for being members of a Neo-Nazi org, rushing in shooting is probably the dumbest option out there.
Yes. If were going to go with bad options to get the suspect killed, the Philadelphia Police department option of dropping C4 and ammonia nitrate on the roof from a helicopter makes way more sense. Of course for some silly reason the French might want him alive if at all psosible so they can find out of he acted alone or not. Pretty standard to give situations like this more then a few hours because not only does it give a chance to get the person to surrender, it will also mentally exhaust them and leave them less able to defend themselves if it comes to storming the building. Fractions of seconds in reaction time mean life and death for the first cop into the building.

In any event the police have a detachment from RAID on scene, which is the French national level police counter terrorist team. Also another suspect has been separately arrested.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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Thanas wrote:Quit being an Internet tough guy and start to realize that police procedure in pretty much all of Europe is to try and save everybody's life.

EDIT: Also, intel. If he is dead, he is of no use.
Whatever you say about American police, and there's a lot to be said about their conduct lately, they would've mostly acted in the same manner, if for no other reason than because it's critical to figure out if he's a lone nut or part of a bigger operation.

Plus there's Skimmer's reasons and the fact storming a building ALWAYS risks cops (and unlucky innocents) getting killed.

It's not like the guy can wait out a swarm of cops, anyways :D
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Its becoming very possible that this guy actually is Al-Qaeda. From the blurbs and newscasts being put on the BBC news ticker; its been leaked that the man is believed to have been arrested in Afghanistan before, for random criminal offenses, and traveled in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Name Mohamed, 24 year old French national. The other person arrested is his brother. He's also admitted he was the shooter through the door of the building to police. So... considerable reason to want him alive.

It seems the tip that led police to on him came from him having recently gotten his scooter repainted, and then placed it up for sale.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Count Chocula »

OK everybody makes sense. So, the cops shut off water and electricity, stay behind cover, drink espresso and eat whatever the French equivalent of donut is (cruller?), and just starve him out. Hope the house he's in doesn't have a water heater or a fridge or toilets with tanks. I guess the best bet is to keep him awake, harass him until he shows signs of sleep-deprived irrationality, wait a couple of hours, THEN take him down. So the French police get some kind of intel, maybe, but the guy just gets life in prison because there's no death penalty in France. Quelle dommage!
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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They aren't going to wait days on this, but waiting out the daylight, the initial raid was at night, morning now, and into the coming evening is pretty likely. Darkness in an apartment with no power will make flash bangs much more effective. If he doesn't surrender by then he probably never would and its long enough to make him tired. This assumes the situation remains controlled of course.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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Not to mention that additional time lets you place listening devices and/or cameras and gather more information from neighbours, former tenants, owners, builders and the council about the property and search the guy's history even more extensively for possible areas to connect on or exploit in negotiations. Every tiny little thing helps.

Also - http://www.theage.com.au/world/hunt-for ... 1vhv2.html that's the article I referenced before.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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So do they have pretty good evidence that this guy was the shooter? Clearly he is/was up to something, but if he is just a garden variety political terrorist there would presumably be easier targets to find than 3 paratroopers of non gallic descent. The neo nazi angle made more sense on that front, anyway.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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Kindly shut the fuck up, Chocula.

In case you didn't know, France isn't a barbarian country, and as Thanas said our police forces' first and foremost concern is saving lives, theirs and everyone else's - including the madman/his possible accomplices.

We aren't in a movie here, and the... "man", if we can still call him that, needs to be brought to justice. We can't do that if it is dead.

So, really, shut the twat that serve as your mouth before you make of yourself more of a fool than you already seem to be.


Thank you kindly.


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Alkaloid wrote:So do they have pretty good evidence that this guy was the shooter?.
You mean apart from the thing admitting it was its doing and explaining its reasons for doing so to the police while they are negotiating its surrender ?
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Alkaloid »

It wouldn't be the first time someone took credit for the actions of another terrorist group. Also, by my reading of the article he hasn't said that. He's claimed he is a member of a terrorist group and wanted to avenge Palestinian children, which I still think makes an army base an odd choice of target.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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weemadando wrote:Not to mention that additional time lets you place listening devices and/or cameras and gather more information from neighbours, former tenants, owners, builders and the council about the property and search the guy's history even more extensively for possible areas to connect on or exploit in negotiations. Every tiny little thing helps.

Also - http://www.theage.com.au/world/hunt-for ... 1vhv2.html that's the article I referenced before.
Yeah - once the suspect is aware of a siege, rushing in without good intel is asking for trouble. It's one thing when there's hostages, but with just him inside, there's no reason NOT to prepare as well as you can.

There was a rather infamous counterterrorist operation in Poland where the CT team rushed a house only to find there were IEDs everywhere on the approach, including the door etc, and the guy had an automatic weapon and a prepared firing position from which he could defend the structure.

Wasn't pretty.

EDIT: Upon checking, there were two guys and 28 various weapons, AKs, a Skorpion, SPAS-12, a dozen pistols etc.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

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Alkaloid wrote:It wouldn't be the first time someone took credit for the actions of another terrorist group. Also, by my reading of the article he hasn't said that. He's claimed he is a member of a terrorist group and wanted to avenge Palestinian children, which I still think makes an army base an odd choice of target.
The media here are telling this, information brought to them by our police forces :

- The thing has gone to AfPak to be trained in an Al-Qaeda camp. Possibly training for suicide attacks.
- The Paratroopers shot were all stationed, at one moment or another, in Afghanistan, AND of North African descent.
- The School targeted was a Jewish school, and 3/4th of the person killed had the double citizenship with Israel.


Connect the dots.
But as far as I've been able to discern, the thing's logic is a bit sketchy to begin with, so...

I don't know anything about its possible accomplices, but the thing has done all the shooting by itself as far as we know.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Its being said now that in fact, the soldiers he shot at the bank were actually getting out cash to buy the scooter off the shooter. They have this via email from his brothers account and that's why his brother was arrested. Talk about one retarded terrorist, but then why would Al-Qaeda train anyone to get away alive. The Jewish school is apparently pretty close to the site of the standoff, so it may have been targeted out of convenience.
PeZook wrote: Yeah - once the suspect is aware of a siege, rushing in without good intel is asking for trouble. It's one thing when there's hostages, but with just him inside, there's no reason NOT to prepare as well as you can.
It seems they now have information that he had an Uzi and an assault rifle; but threw his pistol out a window. Supposedly he's also said he will surrender his afternoon and has kept talking to police, but this is all coming third hand out of French cops speaking to the media off camera so it might not be accurate.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Rabid »

"confusion" is the name of the game, currently.

It has been three really hectic days, after all...
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Rabid »

All Quiet On The Western Front.


Last news I heard have that the guy is still in his apartment, still speaking with the police, but still not surrendering yet. It seems like he is taking his time...
However, at this time it's very likely he will surrender in time. All psychological records we have yet, from his friends, his lawyer (who has known him for years), the neighbours, etc... point to him not being suicidal - he is not a martyr.




Anyway, from what I get, the real "item" on which the politics will have to work with in the presidential campaign after these facts isn't so much "terrorism" or "insecurity", as Marine Le Pen would like ("Front National", far-right party, third in the polls right now...), as it has been heavily demonstrated that we know how to act in cases like these, that we are adequately prepared to deal with them ; but the state of our penal system. All signs point to the then 18-years-old child having started to turn radical when he was sent to the same prison as hardened criminals. We also know that the radical islamists have an habit to recruit from our prisons.
We don't so much need more policemen in the streets (even if our polices forces are under-manned and under-funded...) or harder anti-terrorist laws (the "Vigipirate Plan - Scarlet Level" that was activated in this case was just one step removed from full blown martial law, and the guy in question was already under surveillance, we just had no evidence whatsoever he was going to act) ; as more funds for our judicial system and a deep reform of our penal system. This is how we'll avoid events like this one in the future.
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Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by Falkenhayn »

It's 1050 GMT. BBC Television is reporting that three french police have been injured, one seriously, and that the gunman is dead. They're reporting approximately a minute of automatic weapons fire (the gunman apparently had an AK and an Uzi).

Edit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17473207
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The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
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Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Gunman Kills 4 at a Jewish School in France

Post by The Romulan Republic »

A pity they couldn't take him alive, and that more police were injured. At least its over, though.
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