Miss Universe Canada are a bunch of Transphobic fucks

[Serafina]

It may be that they decided her hormone treatment meant that she gained an unfair advantage much in the same way cosmetic surgery might. That is about the only thing I can think off that does not eliminate her for a reason other than discrimination.

That doesn't fly either, since the hormone levels or transwomen are not higher than those of ciswomen. It's comparable to taking hormones because your own hormone production is deficient. In fact, after SRS, that's precisely the reason you take them - i could actually face medical complications if i stop taking my hormones now, since my body would then be (almost) entirely devoid of sex hormones.

Gender pretty much amounts to a bunch of stereotypes about how males or females think and act. Sex - which is what we're actually talking about - is a physical attribute, independent of the creature's capacity to recognise it.

Fun fact: Chromosomes are not 100% indicative of sex either, it is possible to be born female (although likely infertile) with XY-chromosomes.

Also, there is simply no reason at all to discriminate based on someones chromosomal sex. In fact, in Germany you are not allowed to do so - the only thing that counts is the sex entry on your birth certificate, and that will get changed if you are trans* (and since January 2011, even without surgery. Thanks Bundesverfassungsgericht).

[Simon_Jester]

It may be that they decided her hormone treatment meant that she gained an unfair advantage much in the same way cosmetic surgery might. That is about the only thing I can think off that does not eliminate her for a reason other than discrimination.

That doesn't fly either, since the hormone levels or transwomen are not higher than those of ciswomen. It's comparable to taking hormones because your own hormone production is deficient...

Although it's not a foregone conclusion that Talackova isn't taking higher levels of hormones, just as "many male-to-female transsexuals do not have breast implants" doesn't mean Talackova doesn't (looking at the pictures in the article I'm pretty sure she does).

[Serafina]

Well yes, that is a possibility of course. But higher levels of hormones don't actually lead to more feminization - you only have so many receptors in your body that the hormones can interact with, once they are all occupied more hormones will do nothing but increase the stress on your liver and kidneys.

[Simon_Jester]

Now that is a good point.

[Serafina]

Now that is a good point.

For this reason i also doubt that she has abnormally high levels of estrogen/other sex hormones. It provides little to no benefit, and a responsible doctor wouldn't describe or suggest doing so. It's of course still possible to do so, but it's quite unlikely.

Now breast implants or other cosmetic surgery are another story, but i doubt the contest actually has rules against that.

[Instant Sunrise]

So fucking what if she had breast implants? There's no rule against having it done in the pageant.

And if she started transition in her teens, then it's not as likely that she had implants. Starting transition then means that you would go through pretty much the same puberty as any other cisgendered girl.

And would you bar somebody with AIS from competing? I mean, they would be born XY, but have a woman's body and have been raised their entire life to believe that they are a woman.

Because they are women.

[Simon_Jester]

So fucking what if she had breast implants? There's no rule against having it done in the pageant.

I know- I mentioned the irony in the first place: if they had a rule against plastic surgery (especially breast implants), they'd probably disqualify most of the other contestants too, not just her.

I can actually imagine a pageant that did ban major plastic surgery, and I'm not sure that would be unfair as such. But this isn't that pageant.

And if she started transition in her teens, then it's not as likely that she had implants. Starting transition then means that you would go through pretty much the same puberty as any other cisgendered girl.

"A transsexual," viewed as a generic weighted average, who started taking hormones at 14 would be less likely to have breast implants, or need them in order to have relatively large breasts (as Talackova does). I'm not arguing about that.

But Talackova specifically? Again, I know I could be wrong about this, but that's how it looked to me. Think of her not as "a generic transsexual," but as an otherwise totally ordinary woman of the sort who likes to compete in beauty pageants, and then tell me the odds that she wouldn't have implants.

And would you bar somebody with AIS from competing? I mean, they would be born XY, but have a woman's body and have been raised their entire life to believe that they are a woman.

Because they are women.

Don't ask me, I'm not the one who advocates DNA testing for beauty pageants.

[Serafina]

So we have two possibilities:
- she was kicked from the contest without violating any rules. A clear case of discrimination.
- she was kicked from the contest for violating a rule solely intended to ban transwomen. Also a clear case of discrimination.

It looks to me like it was #1, but it doesn't really matter - either way the organizers are transphobic assholes.

[spaceviking]

It may be that they decided her hormone treatment meant that she gained an unfair advantage much in the same way cosmetic surgery might. That is about the only thing I can think off that does not eliminate her for a reason other than discrimination.

That doesn't fly either, since the hormone levels or transwomen are not higher than those of ciswomen. It's comparable to taking hormones because your own hormone production is deficient. In fact, after SRS, that's precisely the reason you take them - i could actually face medical complications if i stop taking my hormones now, since my body would then be (almost) entirely devoid of sex hormones.

Well there is always going to be someone with an advantage, the important thing is how someone attains an advantage. If a Olympic weightlifter had twice the testosterone of a normal man (and somehow was not dead) but took no steroids, he would not be cheating. If an Olympic weightlifter who had less testosterone than a normal man took testosterone to be on par with his competitors he would be cheating.

Though I may be off base because we are talking about beauty and not performance.

[Lagmonster]

Question: Given the number of participant countries and the widespread problem of social acceptance (I can't imagine that all of the participating countries have awesome track records with trans-women's rights), could overall marketability on a global scale have been a factor (in addition, if you like, to the organizers' own internal prejudices)?

[Serafina]

Well there is always going to be someone with an advantage, the important thing is how someone attains an advantage. If a Olympic weightlifter had twice the testosterone of a normal man (and somehow was not dead) but took no steroids, he would not be cheating. If an Olympic weightlifter who had less testosterone than a normal man took testosterone to be on par with his competitors he would be cheating.

Though I may be off base because we are talking about beauty and not performance.

Unless i am severely mistaken, transmen are actually allowed to take testosterone and compete in professional sports (where they are allowed to compete at all). The reason is quite simply that it doesn't grant them an unfair advantage, which is the whole reason cheating in competitions is bad. And of course they also have a medical condition that requires them to take it.

The same logic would apply here:
- She has a medical reason to take estrogen (and maybe some other hormones that are used in HRT).
- She does not gain an unfair advantage by taking medication that ensures that her hormone level equals that of an average ciswoman.

Nevermind that firing someone for taking hormones, when you allow plastic surgery in your competitiors, is stupid - why would you allow one method of beauty enhancement that is not available to everyone but not another?

[Zaune]

Everyone remember when Miriam Rivera was the subject of a tv show in which they basically allowed men to become sexually and possibly emotionally attracted to her before she revealed to them that she was pre-op?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can't help feeling that that little detail is the kind of thing you ought to be up-front about with a prospective partner at an early stage, because it would leave any predominantly heterosexual man -or a confirmed lesbian for that matter- needing a bit of time to process this information as it relates to their gender and sexual identity. Ambushing them with it at the climax of a dating show is just plain cruel, even by the standards of reality television.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The only thing I can think of is how sex changes are treated legally in Canada. Is she LEGALLY a man, or a woman? Some countries allow you to change your official gender on your birth certificate, but if they don't do that in Canada it may be that she put 'female' on an application when LEGALLY she was male, which would constitute a fraud, no matter how much the physical embodiment of a beautiful woman she may be.

[Serafina]

The only thing I can think of is how sex changes are treated legally in Canada. Is she LEGALLY a man, or a woman? Some countries allow you to change your official gender on your birth certificate, but if they don't do that in Canada it may be that she put 'female' on an application when LEGALLY she was male, which would constitute a fraud, no matter how much the physical embodiment of a beautiful woman she may be.

Unless she is from Quebec (place of birth matters here, not current residence), her legal gender should be changed by now given that she had SRS.

[Solauren]

I have found an article with more information. (Ironic, as it's smaller)

Kinda what I expected actually

A Vancouver transgendered woman who was kicked out of the Miss Universe Canada competition says she is seeking legal guidance.

In a statement, Jenna Talackova said she is very disappointed with the decision taken by the beauty pageant organizers, who say she does not meet requirements.

Writing on the Miss Universe Canada website, organizers claim Talackova lied about her gender status on her entry form, but say they respect her goals, determination and wish her the best.

Competition rules stipulate that contestants must be what the pageant describes as a "naturally born female". She was born male and reports say she had sex reassignment surgery a couple of years ago.

Talackova hopes to turn this situation into a positive, so other people in a similar situation are not discriminated against in the future.

That would, unfortunately, automatically prevent SRS reciepents from participating.
It's a rule that needs to be changed.

[tim31]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can't help feeling that that little detail is the kind of thing you ought to be up-front about with a prospective partner at an early stage, because it would leave any predominantly heterosexual man -or a confirmed lesbian for that matter- needing a bit of time to process this information as it relates to their gender and sexual identity. Ambushing them with it at the climax of a dating show is just plain cruel, even by the standards of reality television.

I couldn't agree with you more; it was exploitation of all the onscreen parties. At the same time it highlight the prevailing attitudes firmly in place. I mean, imagine she admitted to being a repatriated murderer? There wouldn't have been anywhere near the reaction.

[HMS Conqueror]

'Miss X' contests are basically soft porn, and most guys aren't in to that sort of thing. Biological sex is in fact an objective attribute, not a social construct, and it matters to a great many people in these circumstances.

[Serafina]

'Miss X' contests are basically soft porn, and most guys aren't in to that sort of thing. Biological sex is in fact an objective attribute, not a social construct, and it matters to a great many people in these circumstances.

Well a great many people are ignorant bigots. Doesn't mean that you should pander to them.

[HMS Conqueror]

The problem in this case is not ignorance, but lack thereof. It's ridiculous to try to dictate to people what they should find attractive for political reasons.

[spaceviking]

'Miss X' contests are basically soft porn, and most guys aren't in to that sort of thing. Biological sex is in fact an objective attribute, not a social construct, and it matters to a great many people in these circumstances.

I bet most people who watch are in fact hetero females. Biological sex is a fact, but gender is not. While they are often treated as the same thing, they are not.

Secondly, the average fan may not want a trans winner. However, this is supposed to be a competition. You can say she does not meet the criteria by not being born a women, but you can not say she should not compete on the basis of not being popular. This would be the same as saying that a Thai sprinter should not be allowed to compete because he would not have the same fan base as an american competitor.

[HMS Conqueror]

'Miss X' contests are basically soft porn, and most guys aren't in to that sort of thing. Biological sex is in fact an objective attribute, not a social construct, and it matters to a great many people in these circumstances.

I bet most people who watch are in fact hetero females. Biological sex is a fact, but gender is not. While they are often treated as the same thing, they are not.

Gender is a social construct; you may or may not think it is important. Clearly many don't.

Secondly, the average fan may not want a trans winner. However, this is supposed to be a competition. You can say she does not meet the criteria by not being born a women, but you can not say she should not compete on the basis of not being popular. This would be the same as saying that a Thai sprinter should not be allowed to compete because he would not have the same fan base as an american competitor.

The rules are set according to what people want to participate in and/or watch. There are in fact sporting events that Thai nationals cannot participate in.

[Serafina]

The problem in this case is not ignorance, but lack thereof. It's ridiculous to try to dictate to people what they should find attractive for political reasons.

Oh, you mean the political reasons where a certain group of people wants to be treated in a decent, humane manner? Yeah, what a ludicrous goal

Also, the problem IS ignorance - of the fact that transwomen (once transitioned) are for all relevant purposes (except giving birth) equal to cisgendered women. They look like women, they behave like women, they feel like women, they think like women etc. etc. Therefore, treating or perceiving them different from other women is pointless and irrational.
In fact, most people don't even notice when they meet a transitioned transwoman - the only reason anyone noticed here is because the transwoman in question was open and honest about her past.

"Allowing" transwomen to OPENLY do everything other women do - including entering beauty pageants - does at least a little bit to remedy that situation. Not to mention that it means treating them like human beings, if that matters to you at all.

[HMS Conqueror]

The problem in this case is not ignorance, but lack thereof. It's ridiculous to try to dictate to people what they should find attractive for political reasons.

Oh, you mean the political reasons where a certain group of people wants to be treated in a decent, humane manner? Yeah, what a ludicrous goal

Yep. People do not have a right to force others to be sexually attracted to them (or pretend to at least), even if they believe that is minimum standard for them to be treated humanely.

Also, the problem IS ignorance - of the fact that transwomen (once transitioned) are for all relevant purposes (except giving birth) equal to cisgendered women.

That is an opinion, not a fact, and one most people disagree with.

[loomer]

The problem in this case is not ignorance, but lack thereof. It's ridiculous to try to dictate to people what they should find attractive for political reasons.

So let her compete and lose fairly, then, don't disqualify her.

[Serafina]

Yep. People do not have a right to force others to be sexually attracted to them (or pretend to at least), even if they believe that is minimum standard for them to be treated humanely.

How the hell is participating in a beauty pageant "forcing others to be attracted to her"?

Black people also don't have the right to "force racists to be attracted to them". Should we therefore ban then from beauty pageants?

That is an opinion, not a fact, and one most people disagree with.

Really now. Tell me then, what are the differences between a ciswoman and a transitioned transwoman?
Both have feminine personalities. Both have a feminine body. Both have a feminine face and a feminine voice. Both have breasts that are (at least partially) natural. Both have a vagina.
Those are all objective matters. Your opinion clearly diverges from those fact, but that doesn't change that my statement is factually correct. Racists also think that people of other races are inferior despite them being factually equal in all relevant aspects. That doesn't mean that they are right or that their opinion has moral value. And neither does yours.