Miss Universe Canada are a bunch of Transphobic fucks

[Alyeska]

Biological sex is in fact an objective attribute, not a social construct

XY Females and chimera born individuals disagree. There are more than 2 genders.

[loomer]

Also, looking at the photos, I don't think anyone is going to be forced to find her attractive. She's quite pretty, though I'm not a fan of her nose. If someone is 'forced', it just means they're going 'ew a tranny not hot not hot its the shows fault she's hot not mine'.

[HMS Conqueror]

Yep. People do not have a right to force others to be sexually attracted to them (or pretend to at least), even if they believe that is minimum standard for them to be treated humanely.

How the hell is participating in a beauty pageant "forcing others to be attracted to her"?

Black people also don't have the right to "force racists to be attracted to them". Should we therefore ban then from beauty pageants?

"We" shouldn't ban anything; organisers of pageants should be free to set entry criteria, and there are in fact black-only beauty pageants.

That is an opinion, not a fact, and one most people disagree with.

Really now. Tell me then, what are the differences between a ciswoman and a transitioned transwoman?

One used to be a man.

[loomer]

And that matters how, outside of reproduction and certain medical conditions?

[Instant Sunrise]

So how is asking for an equal chance to be considered "forcing people to be attracted to trans women?" Answer me right the fuck now.

So sure they can make it a beauty pageant for cisgendered women only, but I also have the right to call them out as being transphobic fuckheads.

[Simon_Jester]

Which thing is "Her Majesty's Ship Conqueror" looking at?

The objective facts- there's genetics, but people can argue with him about whether the genetics should matter, objectively. Saying "the genes matter because they matter, dammit!" is a pretty crazy argument all by itself- tautological at best.


The subjective facts... he's actually on firmer ground there, in that the argument might be unethical/bigoted/whatever but at least it isn't crazy. There, he's referring to something that is not only true but that the pageant operator doesn't have to be insane to care about- the large fraction of its audience they'd alienate by having transsexual contestants. Since it's actually true that they would run into problems because of that, at least it's not a stupid argument for him to advance. The problem is that he then smacks into an ethical wall: is it ethical to make a decision that enforces a prejudice because other people are prejudiced?

For example, would it be ethical to refuse to issue a home loan to a minority because other people in the neighborhood would object, or be unwilling to buy houses in the neighborhood? I would say "no."


So which is Conqueror trying to argue here?

[Serafina]

That is an opinion, not a fact, and one most people disagree with.

Really now. Tell me then, what are the differences between a ciswoman and a transitioned transwoman?

One used to be a man.

So, when asked for the difference between a transsexual woman and a cissexual woman, your answer is "one is transsexual". Brilliant . How exactly is that NOT discrimination against transsexual women?


As for beauty pageants only for black women, or any other specific group: They are blatantly advertised as such and they are INCLUSIVE for one specific group rather than EXCLUSIVE for one specific group. They are still discriminating, but it's positive discrimination instead of negative discrimination.
So the black beauty pageant only allows one specific group amongst many. The contest in question bans one minority without restricting the majority in any way.

[spaceviking]

There are also Tran-sexual beauty pageants, though I only heard of them in south east asia.

[Thanas]

As for beauty pageants only for black women, or any other specific group: They are blatantly advertised as such and they are INCLUSIVE for one specific group rather than EXCLUSIVE for one specific group. They are still discriminating, but it's positive discrimination instead of negative discrimination.
So the black beauty pageant only allows one specific group amongst many. The contest in question bans one minority without restricting the majority in any way.

That is an extremely bad argument to make no matter how you feel about the tournament in itself - if the tournament defined itself as cis-women only then it would be inclusive for one specific group as well.

[Spoonist]

Just a few points:

1) cosmetical surgery etc is allowed. Hormone treatment as well.
2) the rules are not set up by the canadian org but rather the international org owned by Trump, so its his rules. (Yes he has changed them since his takeover).
3) the rules seems to be not published online, rather you get a subset of them when you file for participation
4) the question regarding gender was not as clear as it could be so a transgendered could easily be misled into answering female into a slot which is meant to exclude them.

[Julhelm]

I'm having trouble imagining a more conservative institution than a Miss Universe pageant.

[mr friendly guy]

Everyone remember when Miriam Rivera was the subject of a tv show in which they basically allowed men to become sexually and possibly emotionally attracted to her before she revealed to them that she was pre-op? And that the men involved sued the producers for being publically humiliated? That was only nine years ago. Attitudes aren't changing fast enough. Hell, it's been said on here that transpersons are the poor cousins in the the LGBT hierachy. If they can't get unanimous support from that base...

I watched parts of that show despite myself. Didn't they bill the show as Miriam has a big secret, ie she is a man (the words from the commercial). For that to be true I supposed it would depend on how much surgery she actually had prior to appearing on the show. However based on that advert it was clear the contestants were set up so the audience could have a big laugh when they reveal, I am a transexual ho hum ho hum. I can understand why they would feel humiliated and they were duly compensated.

[Lagmonster]

There, he's referring to something that is not only true but that the pageant operator doesn't have to be insane to care about- the large fraction of its audience they'd alienate by having transsexual contestants. Since it's actually true that they would run into problems because of that, at least it's not a stupid argument for him to advance. The problem is that he then smacks into an ethical wall: is it ethical to make a decision that enforces a prejudice because other people are prejudiced?

It is not ethical nor fair, but it may be mercenary if you think of yourself as a business and not a front for social change. If either a number of the participant countries or their viewers object due to sexual or social prejudices, the organizers may lose money. The prejudices of the organizers or even lack thereof become irrelevant if a contestant isn't considered to be marketable as a sex object.

[Spoonist]

There, he's referring to something that is not only true but that the pageant operator doesn't have to be insane to care about- the large fraction of its audience they'd alienate by having transsexual contestants. Since it's actually true that they would run into problems because of that, at least it's not a stupid argument for him to advance. The problem is that he then smacks into an ethical wall: is it ethical to make a decision that enforces a prejudice because other people are prejudiced?

It is not ethical nor fair, but it may be mercenary if you think of yourself as a business and not a front for social change. If either a number of the participant countries or their viewers object due to sexual or social prejudices, the organizers may lose money. The prejudices of the organizers or even lack thereof become irrelevant if a contestant isn't considered to be marketable as a sex object.

But isn't the point to get ratings? I can't see any better way than to let her compete and "leak" her history to the press or somesuch. In my view, just disqualifying her is a missed business opportunity.
There are hardly any out there who wants to see the event that wouldn't because of such a controversy, instead it would cater to an extra audience not normally reached by this type of event.
By letting her compete but then giving her a bad score in the evaluations would work wonders for ratings + catering to the conservative audience/values of birther Trump.

[Ralin]

I think you're under-estimating the backlash there would have been. They would have faced boycotts from what's probably their core audience, and I don't think that an one time ratings boost would be worth that from their perspective.

[Spoonist]

I don't think so. Conservatives everywhere love the doublestandard of preaching against what they themselves do later on.
Fox TV has several times catered specifically to this with more nudity while schreeching vs the very same thing in editorial positions. It's not new.

So I believe that the effective choices of several so called conservative networks shows that this is something which would create business, even given a conservative audience.

[Bright]

The problem in this case is not ignorance, but lack thereof. It's ridiculous to try to dictate to people what they should find attractive for political reasons.

If Joe Q. Public can't even tell that an individual is transgendered by appearance alone and would find them attractive without that knowledge - but would overturn that opinion upon learning the truth - then their opinion is utterly idiotic and need not be considered. No one is forced into anything in that scenario.

[Ryan Thunder]

If Joe Q. Public can't even tell that an individual is transgendered by appearance alone and would find them attractive without that knowledge - but would overturn that opinion upon learning the truth - then their opinion is utterly idiotic and need not be considered. No one is forced into anything in that scenario.

I don't really disagree that what's happened here is wrong, but I don't like your logic here.

I mean, would you consider it a bad thing if I decided I wasn't into a girl who was totally cool except that she wanted me to pretend I was raping her whenever we had sex? I'd know it was consensual, but I'd still feel uncomfortable doing it. Illogical, right?

*I get that its a sensitive issue and these people get a lot of undeserved flak, so if you misconstrue that as some sort of negative comment about transexuality, well, I didn't mean it that way.

[Serafina]

I mean, would you consider it a bad thing if I decided I wasn't into a girl who was totally cool except that she wanted me to pretend I was raping her whenever we had sex? I'd know it was consensual, but I'd still feel uncomfortable doing it. Illogical, right?

*I get that its a sensitive issue and these people get a lot of undeserved flak, so if you misconstrue that as some sort of negative comment about transexuality, well, I didn't mean it that way.

Well, that' throw up the question why a transwoman would make you "feel uncomfortable".
Not to mention that no one demands that you have a personal relationship with the person wanting to participate in this contest, so your example is totally not applicable.

Also, get this:
It' not a womans responsibility if you are attracted to her, and if that makes you uncomfortable. That's YOUR responsibility, and you can't demand that she changes/disappears due to it. Regardless of whether it's because that woman is black, trans* or you have a religious problem with being attracted to women, you don't get to dictate other peoples behavior because of your own feelings.

So yes, Brights logic is perfectly sound.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well, that' throw up the question why a transwoman would make you "feel uncomfortable".

It's subjective. You wouldn't ask a man to objectively explain a preference for redheads, would you?

It' not a womans responsibility if you are attracted to her, and if that makes you uncomfortable. That's YOUR responsibility, and you can't demand that she changes/disappears due to it. Regardless of whether it's because that woman is black, trans* or you have a religious problem with being attracted to women, you don't get to dictate other peoples behavior because of your own feelings.

Of course not. I agree. That's not the point. The point is that I can be attracted or unattracted to whomever I bloody well please, and logic rarely has a place in that, much to my detriment and that of others.

Which means that if a lot of men are unattracted to a transwoman (yes, even if they decide that after they get to know her thinking she's not a transwoman), that's their prerogative and their opinion is still valid.

None of this means she shouldn't be allowed to compete or win.

[Sea Skimmer]

Backpedal engaged! Guess they got enough bad press to fear loosing money over this.

Transgender beauty queen allowed to compete in Miss Universe Canada
By msnbc.com staff
April 2, 2012, 10:17 pm
MSN.com

The Miss Universe Organization will allow Jenna Talackova to compete in the 2012 Miss Universe Canada pageant after all, provided that she meet the legal requirements for being a woman in Canada.

The head of Miss Universe Canada kicked her out two weeks ago after discovering that she is transgender. The official said that Talackova had to have been born a female to participate.

At the time, a brief statement on the front page of the website for Beauties of Canada, the company that oversees the Miss Universe Canada pageant, stated that Talackova had been removed from the competition “because she did not meet the requirements to compete despite having stated otherwise on her entry form.”


Handout via modelmayhem.com

Jenna Talackova may be allowed to compete in Miss Universe Canada after all. She started hormone therapy at age 14 and underwent surgery at 19.

Talackova then tweeted that she was “disqualified for being born.”

Miss Universe Canada organizers boot transgender contestant

Proving one's gender varies by province in Canada, according to the Vancouver Sun, and may require medical documents.

In 2010, when she was 19, Talackova competed in Miss International Queen, a competition for transgender and transsexual people. In an interview posted on YouTube, she said she knew she was a girl at age 4.

Speaking with a girlish lilt, the tall blonde contestant said that she started hormone therapy at age 14 and underwent a sex change surgery at 19.

GLAAD, a lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender advocacy group said the Miss Universe had taken an important first step.

The group released a statement, saying, “The Miss Universe Organization should look to state non-discrimination laws and institutions including the Olympics, NCAA and The CW's America's Next Top Model, which do not discriminate against transgender women."

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... rse-canada

[Serafina]

Great news!
And they didn't even have to be taken to court for it - where they probably would have lost anyway. Since you can get your birth certificate changed in Canada, you have legal documentation that says that you HAVE been born a girl.

[Sephirius]

Sorry I'm late to the party, but this is a complete 'wait, what the fuck?' moment. (It's a good thing, though.)

Bill O’Reilly Sticks Up For Transgender Miss Universe Contestant

Conservative Fox News host Bill O’Reilly seemed supportive of a transgender woman’s right to compete in the Miss Universe competition during his show on Friday. During a segment about Miss Universe’s decision to prohibit Jenna Talackova from participating in the pageant because she is trans, O’Reilly asked, “What right does the Miss Universe pageant have to violate this lady’s right to be a woman? They are basically saying because you weren’t born a woman you don’t have a right to be a woman..t doesn’t sound right to me.” The comments represent a significant evolution for O’Reilly, who in 2010 compared transgender people to Ewoks.

Source

I think we've all been sucked into bizarro land.

[PeZook]

I think he was being sarcastic there, dude.

[Sephirius]

My sarcasm meter is completely broken when it comes to Falafel boy. I just can't tell anymore.