Finland, land of uneducated, starving murderers

[Tiriol]

Meanwhile, in Finland, according to New Zealand's minister: starving, moronic murderers don't have any money. As reported by Helsingin Sanomat.

New Zealand minister lashes out at Finland in speech in Parliament

A government minister in New Zealand has sharply criticised Finland in an address in his country’s Parliament last week.
Speaking in Parliament, Leader of the House Gerry Brownlee lashed out at the opposition Labour Party’s suggestion that New Zealand should use Finland as an economic model.
According to Brownlee, Finland “has worse unemployment than us, has less growth than us, can hardly feed the people who live there, has a terrible homicide rate, hardly educates its people, and has no respect for women".

At the Finnish Embassy in Canberra, embassy official Juha Parikka said that Finland plans to study Brownlee’s comments closely.
“We want to find out if there is something else in the background, or if this is merely hyperbole taking place in political debate. Colourful and tough language is nevertheless common in the New Zealand Parliament.”
“They let it fly. It’s very different from what people in Finland are used to”, Parikka said.

Parikka added that relations between Finland and New Zealand are “Excellent”.
“We understand each other very well. We are about the same size, and we have similar problems. Generally it is quite easy to find a common voice. I suspect that the New Zealanders will be very sorry”, Parikka said.

Brownlee has said that his statement was partly made in jest, but that it has some truth to it as well. He also admits that in some respects Finnish economic policy is admirable.
In his speech (see link to video below), Brownlee chastised the Labour opposition for taking “Esko Aho, the great right-wing Prime Minister of Finland” as its icon.
Mr. Aho, from the Centre Party, served as Finland’s Prime Minister from 1991 to 1995.
Few in this country would describe him as "right-wing" by any stretch of the imagination, but this may of course be because we are all so uneducated and more concerned with the constant struggle to feed ourselves, collect unemployment benefit, and fend off marauding murderers.

I'd like to know the sources for the minister's claims. Of course, considering the Westminster style government, the source is probably his gut feeling/his ass.

[Julhelm]

Maybe he meant to say Sweden.

[mr friendly guy]

Why would you think they meant to say Sweden? Does Sweden have some type of reputation I am not aware of involving a "terrible" homicide rate, no respect for women and hardly educates its people?

[Skgoa]

I have that strange little feeling that was a joke.

[His Divine Shadow]

I am neither uneducated or unemployed so hah.

[mr friendly guy]

Well Finland does send Satan to Eurovision. I personally think its cool, but some Christians had a fit.

[Julhelm]

Why would you think they meant to say Sweden? Does Sweden have some type of reputation I am not aware of involving a "terrible" homicide rate, no respect for women and hardly educates its people?

Just an awful lot of gang war, rampant trafficking, lots of rape, spousal abuse and honor violence, a completely inept court system, equally inept police and a gutted public education system that's declined from being one of the best in Europe to 18th place or something like that.

Finland looks like utopia in comparison.

[tim31]

I invite you to do what we do in Australia: treat NZ politics as 'their little amusement' until they start doing something really untoward like pushing trade agreements to stop their country from slipping into the Tasman Sea. You had your chance 111 years ago, you bastards, stop trying to sponge off us now.

[Eleas]

Why would you think they meant to say Sweden? Does Sweden have some type of reputation I am not aware of involving a "terrible" homicide rate, no respect for women and hardly educates its people?

Julhelm is correct in that Sweden has lately declined in terms of education. However, not all Swedes on this board share his position on other aspects of the state of the country; I for one see it as reactionary, right-wing and xenophobic, and would contest his conclusions as I have before.

Most saliently, though, mentioning Sweden seems odd in the context of this thread, given that the incidence of spousal abuse, honor killings, trafficking (where Danish numbers are vastly higher), corruption etc in this country are unremarkable when compared to the rest of Scandinavia, unless one forms the majority of one's opinions from the tabloid press.

[Alkaloid]

Why do people from Scandinavian countries all seem to think the other Scandinavian countries are uneducated murderer habitats? I mean, I will occasionally go on about how terrible NZ is, but that is because Australia is clearly superior in almost every way, while to all outward appearances one Nordic paradise is more or less the same as the other? I don't get it.

until they start doing something really untoward

Man, fucking apples. The bastards.

[Julhelm]

However, not all Swedes on this board share his position on other aspects of the state of the country; I for one see it as reactionary, right-wing and xenophobic, and would contest his conclusions as I have before.

It's reactionary to acknowledge the fact that we now have such rampant numbers of bombings and shootings that both the government and police are going ape about it? And I guess it's xenophobic to acknowledge the fact that the amount of raping has skyrocketed the last 20 years? And that we have a totally inept court system that has taken the "rather aquit than convict" principle to ludicrous extremes? Perhaps you can explain the concept of "Straffrabatt" where the more crimes you commit, the less jailtime you get for each individual crime? Or how the courts as a rule only convict to around 1/4th of the max sentence for gun crimes, a crime where the max sentence is 4 years?

lol @ trafficking being more prevalent in Denmark. It's not the prevalence of prostitution that matters, it's the nature of it. The difference is that in Denmark it is in the open and the police know whos who whereas here it's all hidden away in shady apartments and the prostitutes have little to no chance of contacting outsiders for help. Out of sight, out of mind I guess. Unsurprising, since the traditional swedish model is to deny the very existance of problems. If someone points out a problem you can just accuse them of xenophobia and score an insta-win.

[Tsyroc]

Why would you think they meant to say Sweden? Does Sweden have some type of reputation I am not aware of involving a "terrible" homicide rate, no respect for women and hardly educates its people?

I presumed this was a joke based on the news caster in Die Hard messing up "Helsinki Syndrome" and saying the location of Helsinki being in Sweden or something like that.

[Eleas]

It's reactionary to acknowledge the fact that we now have such rampant numbers of bombings and shootings that both the government and police are going ape about it?

No, that's not how it goes. I know you love your threadjack, but you still need to abide by the rules of the debate. Show me hard numbers, or be silent.

And I guess it's xenophobic to acknowledge the fact that the amount of raping has skyrocketed the last 20 years?

The amount of rapes reported has skyrocketed. I will now explain to you the difference between these two nigh-indistinguishale concepts. In the first case, we're talking actual rapes happening; these we cannot know. In the second case, we're talking reported incidences of rape in a system where the definition of rape has gradually expanded. Fuck, it was only two years ago that it became rape to have sex with someone too drunk to resist.

Oh, sorry. The explanation must, of course, be those grubby immigrants. Sinister immigrants that explain everything.

And that we have a totally inept court system that has taken the "rather aquit than convict" principle to ludicrous extremes?

Worthless appeal to emotion. The article you linked even illuminates what you fail to grasp:

"It's seems like, in principle, you need a witness in order for someone to get convicted of rape, and how often is that the case? Children and women are definitely a vulnerable group, even in a legal sense. I didn't think it could be so bad," she said.

Turns out that if you go from only labeling aggravated and clear-cut cases of sexual violence as being rape, then it's easier to prove, thus fewer acquittals. When, however, it becomes word against word, proof is not such an easy thing to produce.

Not even if the suspects are immigrants.

Perhaps you can explain the concept of "Straffrabatt" where the more crimes you commit, the less jailtime you get for each individual crime?

Ja, se på fan. Det tycks som om Centern, totalt oinvesterade i situationen som de är, trots allt hävdar att deras egna metoder hade gett ypperliga resultat. Då är ju saken fullständigt klar.

For those of us not versed in the gentle art of Swede-to-Moron schooling, he just tried to use for proof a puff piece written by the Justice minister of the Center-right coalition (in which Linander talks about the need to do away with what he calls 'punishment rebate' for repeat offenders). Linander demonstrates the existence of said rebate using... well, the single data point of home invasions peaking during 2008. He shows no other evidence nor indeed a context in which it would be relevant, thereby barely showing better debating skills than Julhelm.

Or how the courts as a rule only convict to around 1/4th of the max sentence for gun crimes, a crime where the max sentence is 4 years?

That's nice. And? Your argument is that justice has deteriorated. A compelling argument would be you attempting to prove that. Instead, you shriek something about punishments being too low, which is the way a moron would argue. Would, and apparently does.

lol @ trafficking being more prevalent in Denmark. It's not the prevalence of prostitution that matters, it's the nature of it. The difference is that in Denmark it is in the open and the police know whos who

That's a bald-faced lie, and you should have made more than a token effort to mask it. You of course know just as well as the other people in this thread that I was not talking about prostitution but of trafficking, which is the by definition illegal trade of humans into sexual slavery or labor. Your attempt to quietly try to switch from one to the other as if they were the same -- full well knowing about sanctioned prostitution in Denmark -- is cute, but no, I really was talking about what the link I posted actually said, and that is that the Danish bid to legalize prostitution actually backfired. It didn't drive prostitution into the open so much as expand it.

whereas here it's all hidden away in shady apartments and the prostitutes have little to no chance of contacting outsiders for help. Out of sight, out of mind I guess. Unsurprising, since the traditional swedish model is to deny the very existance of problems.

Really? Because if we reframe it in light of the lie you just spouted being, well, a lie, then it turns out that the measures do in fact serve to reduce violence against women, and that the politicians do in fact care enough to put the struggle against trafficking on the official, state-funded Swedish homepage. Your points are, in short, bullshit and transparently so.

All except the first one. I agree with you there. In Sweden, it is all hidden away, and that leads to the plight of prostitutes you rightly described. Problem is, in my first link, there was ample indication of the fact that this happens in Denmark as well to a portion of women whose total numbers may still be substantially higher than their equivalents in Sweden.

But even if Denmark weren't a hotbed of vice in comparison, so what? You're the one describing Sweden as a den of iniquity, an outlier, a place that's gone to the pits. You are the one on whom the onus is to provide actual fucking proof, which you don't seem to want to do.

If someone points out a problem you can just accuse them of xenophobia and score an insta-win.

Your posts have managed to illuminate the problem beyond a shred of doubt. The pity is how abundantly clear you made it that the problem is you yourself.

[Eleas]

I presumed this was a joke based on the news caster in Die Hard messing up "Helsinki Syndrome" and saying the location of Helsinki being in Sweden or something like that.

It is a joke, allright, but you've missed the context to make it really funny. The context is that Julhelm too is a Swede, and really likes his country, which is currently in the process of being ruined by foreign filth.

[Lord Revan]

Can we please keep to the topic without brinning all this bloody right-wing anti-imigration BS into it, we get that enough from the True Finns (well one of the their members to be exact but that's not the point).

As for the article in the OP (I saw the headline before but wasn't sure what exactly it meant), it seems it was a joke of sorts, not exactly of good taste but seems mostly harmless, but I'm not gonna get into some sort patrioitic rage over a bad joke.

[Eleas]

Can we please keep to the topic without brinning all this bloody right-wing anti-imigration BS into it, we get that enough from the True Finns (well one of the their members to be exact but that's not the point).

Fair enough. My mistake for taking the bait.

[Spoonist]

For anyone who thinks that julhelm's opinions seem sane, just do a search on him with the key words crime and sweden.

@op
Of course finns are unemployed murdering bastards, every Kaurismäki movie I've been made to watch makes me want quit my job, beat up someone close and then go on a murdering rampage. So imagine what the people brought up on that would be like.

GDP Finland
$ 196,700,000,000
GDP NZ
$ 123,300,000,000

GDP/cap fin
$38,300
GDP/cap nz
$27,900

GDP growth fin
2%
GDP growth nz
2.7%

[mr friendly guy]

I must admit while Julhelm made started the tangent by saying maybe they meant Sweden, I asked him about it which was genuine curiosity on my part and it led to this. If the two want to continue, I ask a mod to split the thread, since I don't know a lot about some European countries and would be interested to learn more. I will also take Spoonist advice and search the board's archives to learn more as well.

[Tiriol]

Why do people from Scandinavian countries all seem to think the other Scandinavian countries are uneducated murderer habitats? I mean, I will occasionally go on about how terrible NZ is, but that is because Australia is clearly superior in almost every way, while to all outward appearances one Nordic paradise is more or less the same as the other? I don't get it.

My honest opinion? It goes way back into murky depths of history when Norway, Denmark and Sweden weren't exactly the best of buddies. To confuse the matters even more Finland (not part of Scandinavia but part of the Nordic Lands) has a huge chip on its shoulder over its history as part of the Swedish kingdom. From what I understand, though, it doesn't affect official relations at all and Nordics seem to get along just fine, almost perfectly in many cases; but there is a lot of, let's say, grudges to be had (just to name an example: Finns belittling Swedes' ability to wage a war or to defend themselves). However, Sweden and Finland at least share some very strong ties and nobody has forgotten how much Sweden helped Finland during the Winter War. Of course, then there's the situation with Swedish language in Finland, but that's another matter entirely and is very controversial, especially thanks to our current Minister of Defense...

[Spyder]

I invite you to do what we do in Australia: treat NZ politics as 'their little amusement' until they start doing something really untoward like pushing trade agreements to stop their country from slipping into the Tasman Sea. You had your chance 111 years ago, you bastards, stop trying to sponge off us now.

Shut up and eat the damn apples.

Don't worry Finns, we've sent Edward Sausage-Hands back to the naughty corner.


Just incase anyone's curious, his portfolio isn't Foreign Affairs and Trade. He's just fat.

[Spyder]

Why do people from Scandinavian countries all seem to think the other Scandinavian countries are uneducated murderer habitats? I mean, I will occasionally go on about how terrible NZ is, but that is because Australia is clearly superior in almost every way,

Underarm bowling.

until they start doing something really untoward

Man, fucking apples. The bastards.

Bwahahaha! Suck our delicious braeburns!

[Spoonist]

Why do people from Scandinavian countries all seem to think the other Scandinavian countries are uneducated murderer habitats?

I see it more like sibling rivalry. We are the butt of each others jokes etc. But if an external comes along and insult our brethren its completely different...

[mr friendly guy]

Underarm bowling.

You guys are still sore over that?

I will say this for you guys. You don't seem to have a perchance for military adventurism with the Americans that we seem to love.

[tim31]

Shut up and eat the damn apples.

I'LL FIREBLIGHT YOU AND YOUR CHEST HAIR

[Alyrium Denryle]

Why do people from Scandinavian countries all seem to think the other Scandinavian countries are uneducated murderer habitats?

I see it more like sibling rivalry. We are the butt of each others jokes etc. But if an external comes along and insult our brethren its completely different...

The history of invasion, annexation, counter-invasion, forced Monarchical Unions, meddling, more annexation, semi-autonomous regions that want to be part of Sweden or were once Danish, were Swedish and now are Danish again etc has NOTHING to do with it?



as for the OP

According to Brownlee, Finland “has worse unemployment than us, has less growth than us, can hardly feed the people who live there, has a terrible homicide rate, hardly educates its people, and has no respect for women".

\

Um...



Yeah... My world just became a little bit more surreal