Miss Universe Canada are a bunch of Transphobic fucks

[Dalton]

He also stuck up for Ellen Degeneres during the One Million Moms Macy's boycott. Fact of the matter is that Fox has been undergoing a slight paradigm shift lately (either Murdoch or Ailes ordered it IIRC), presumably because the far right has been going fucking nuts.

Slight shift.

[CaptainChewbacca]

A lot of conservatives who inhabit more liberal parts of the country (people like myself) generally don't have the hangups with transgender issues that you see in more conservative parts of the country, because we've actually had positive experiences interacting with people for whom gender isn't a binary issue.

Education, familiarity, and love will always change minds and hearts.

[DudeGuyMan]

I watched the clip. Surprisingly, Billo doesn't sound sarcastic. Good for him, I guess. He does have a habit of being a douchebag 99% of the time (though merely a douchebag, not a total psycho) then randomly saying something sensible that you would never attribute to him.

Also, this thread needs more pictures. For uh, scientific purposes.
Spoiler

[madd0ct0r]

if she's competeing after all, should the title be changed?

[Serafina]

if she's competeing after all, should the title be changed?

They're still a bunch of transphobic fucks - all that's changed is that they caved in after massive pressure.

[Todeswind]

Can anyone verify the rumor in the works now is that they're changing the rules so that you must be totally surgically unmodified (breast implants etc.) in order to compete in the competition for the next one as a way of circumventing this?

[Serafina]

Can anyone verify the rumor in the works now is that they're changing the rules so that you must be totally surgically unmodified (breast implants etc.) in order to compete in the competition for the next one as a way of circumventing this?

No idea whether that's true, but i think it rather unlikely, given that this would also exclude a large number of ciswomen from the contest*.

Whether that would actually exclude transwomen from the contest is however debatable. It's in fact quite possible for a transwoman to have large breasts naturally, without surgery - rarer than amongst ciswomen, but it still happens, especially in early transitioners or those with partial androgen insensitivity.

There is of course a possible double-bind - transwomen in Canada can only have the sex on their birth certificate changed after SRS, and SRS falls under "surgical alteration". So those transwomen without SRS can't compete because they are still legally men, and those with SRS can'T because they had "surgical alteration".
However, this would just further show what transphobic fucks those people are, because SRS isn't really vanity surgery, like most breast implants - it's restorative surgery (just like plastic surgery for those with other birth defects). Nor does it actually affect the recipients looks in any way (when clothed, at least), not granting them an unfair advantage over the other participants.


*Cis=opposite of trans. A person born with the sex of the gender they identify with="normal", non-transsexual people

[Broomstick]

Well there is always going to be someone with an advantage, the important thing is how someone attains an advantage. If a Olympic weightlifter had twice the testosterone of a normal man (and somehow was not dead) but took no steroids, he would not be cheating. If an Olympic weightlifter who had less testosterone than a normal man took testosterone to be on par with his competitors he would be cheating.

Though I may be off base because we are talking about beauty and not performance.

Unless i am severely mistaken, transmen are actually allowed to take testosterone and compete in professional sports (where they are allowed to compete at all). The reason is quite simply that it doesn't grant them an unfair advantage, which is the whole reason cheating in competitions is bad. And of course they also have a medical condition that requires them to take it.

This applies to cismen, too - Lance Armstrong is allowed to take testosterone while competing because his body no longer produces it natural (that is a side effect of testicle cancer and treatment for same). He is monitored to make sure he is not taking unfair levels of it. He has a medical reason so the hormones are therapeutic.

[Aaron MkII]

Ok, I get were "trans" comes from but whats the origin of "cis"?

[Broomstick]

Apparently, it's the actual opposite prefix of "trans" that was falling out of use and seldom heard or seen until resurrected by the transgender folks.

[Simon_Jester]

It's not falling out of use in biochemistry, but in the rest of the population, yeah it's Latin, so it doesn't get used so much.

[Serafina]

Ok, I get were "trans" comes from but whats the origin of "cis"?

It's less awkward than saying "non-transsexual" or "normal" all the time. Just like you say "straight" instead of "non-homosexual". It's a term only used when comparing trans- and cissexual people in some way - but then again i don't use "transsexual" for fun either, i only use it when it actually matters that the person in question is trans.

As for etymology, it's the opposite on trans (which means "across"/on the opposite side) and means "on the same side side". And yeah, it's latin

[Simon_Jester]

"Cisalpine Gaul" was the part of Gaul on the Italian side of the Alps, for example- "Transalpine Gaul" was what we now know as France.

The "trans-this" usage remained common to describe territories in European languages up to the 19th and early 20th centuries: consider "Transoxiana" (modern Uzbekistan, more or less) or "Trans-Jordan" (what is now Jordan). "Cis-this" stopped being used, mostly.

[Todeswind]

Can anyone verify the rumor in the works now is that they're changing the rules so that you must be totally surgically unmodified (breast implants etc.) in order to compete in the competition for the next one as a way of circumventing this?

No idea whether that's true, but i think it rather unlikely, given that this would also exclude a large number of ciswomen from the contest*.

Whether that would actually exclude transwomen from the contest is however debatable. It's in fact quite possible for a transwoman to have large breasts naturally, without surgery - rarer than amongst ciswomen, but it still happens, especially in early transitioners or those with partial androgen insensitivity.

There is of course a possible double-bind - transwomen in Canada can only have the sex on their birth certificate changed after SRS, and SRS falls under "surgical alteration". So those transwomen without SRS can't compete because they are still legally men, and those with SRS can'T because they had "surgical alteration".
However, this would just further show what transphobic fucks those people are, because SRS isn't really vanity surgery, like most breast implants - it's restorative surgery (just like plastic surgery for those with other birth defects). Nor does it actually affect the recipients looks in any way (when clothed, at least), not granting them an unfair advantage over the other participants.


*Cis=opposite of trans. A person born with the sex of the gender they identify with="normal", non-transsexual people

It's an easy out for them though. If they use that route it allows them to cover it under the blanket pretense of promoting "natural beauty." I'm under the impression that they'd already been under pressure to do something to that effect for some time for reasons entirely unrelated to Transexuals.

[Simon_Jester]

There are some non-bigotry arguments for it. The big one is the old standby about "promoting unrealistic expectations" of the female figure. The stereotypical fashion model/beauty pageant competitor these days has a stick-figure body with breasts the size of melons, and it's not particularly healthy or desirable to have all women thinking they're supposed to look like that.

So just having physically realistic competitors isn't inherently a wrong thing to do. In this case, it's the motivation that's the issue.

[CaptainChewbacca]

'Natural Woman' beauty pageants exist, but I'm betting instituting such rules in Miss Universe would probably prohibit 10-15% of the contestants from competing.

[Serafina]

I am NOT at all opposed to "natural beauty" pageants.
What i WOULD be opposed to if you define "natural" as "cissexual", or if you interpret SRS-recipients as no longer natural (essentially the same thing). There is no good reason to see SRS as a "beauty surgery" just done in order to look better - it is surgery done to be sexual functional again (just like women who suffer from female gential mutilation have restorative surgery for that), and it does in no way grant you an unfair advantage over other participants in a "natural beauty" contest.

Someone wants to hold a natural beauty pageants where only participants without vanity surgery are allowed? Great idea - just don't exclude transwomen who didn't have any such surgery from it, and don't count SRS as it because there is no reason to do so!

[Todeswind]

I'm skeptical that a pre-op transsexual would be allowed to enter.

[Lagmonster]

So how much genetic purity do they demand in these 'perfect woman' contests? Do they disqualify contestants who needed braces as a child, or who wear contacts? Or are they just happy if you can speak in coherent sentences and fill out a bikini? The goal being to highlight the preferred discrimination in the mating choices of the majority of heterosexual males, how shallow are those targets?

[Instant Sunrise]

I'm skeptical that a pre-op transsexual would be allowed to enter.

While sadly, you're probably right, it is worth noting that genital surgery is a fairly minor thing in the grand scheme of things and it's really only cisgendered people who make a big deal about it.

HRT does much much more to feminize the body than genital surgery.

In many places, you don't need it to legally change your documents to be seen as female in the eyes of the law.

Plus requiring genital surgery would discriminate against trans people who can't afford it, can't get it for medical reasons, or don't want it.

This is a little ranty, but I'm kind of tired of people assuming that genial surgery is the end-all be-all of transitioning.

EDIT: @Lagmonster, what about ciswomen with AIS? They have XY genetics, but are born and raised female, should they be allowed to compete as well?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I really don't see that genetics should be an issue. After all, the whole point of this contest is who the person looks, and unless there is a nude appearance section whether they are pre-or post-op trans doesn't matter.

As for the "no cosmetic surgery" rule, again, why should it matter? You are unlikely to enter such a contest without caring a serious amount about how you look, whether you are cis or trans. I suppose you could argue that allowing cosmetic surgery makes it biased to the wealthy, but I don't see the problem with allowing surgery really.

[Count Chocula]

I'm appalled that this intellectual crucible missed the obvious troll on the contestant's part: hir name!

Jenna Talakhova

Born Walter Talako

Let's try Jenna Talako....say it twice...nope nothing in the way of a subtext there.

So say Jenna Talakhova five times fast.

1

2

3

4

5

Sounds like "Genital, lack of a" to me.

S/he picked hir name as a provocation, I'm guessing on purpose because I don't know and will never meet hir. If I had seen a contestant with a name like that, I would have DQ'd them on the name alone! Conversely, I probably wouldn't let a contestant named Seymour Butts compete in Mr. Universe, because the name alone would distract from the contest. But I'm an asshole, so just ignore me.

[TimothyC]

I'm appalled that this intellectual crucible missed the obvious troll on the contestant's part: her name!

Jenna Talakhova

Born Walter Talako

You do know that Patronymics are different for different genders right?

[Serafina]

S/he picked hir name as a provocation, I'm guessing on purpose because I don't know and will never meet hir. If I had seen a contestant with a name like that, I would have DQ'd them on the name alone! Conversely, I probably wouldn't let a contestant named Seymour Butts compete in Mr. Universe, because the name alone would distract from the contest. But I'm an asshole, so just ignore me.

Yes, you are an asshole. No, i won't ignore you. If you got to complain about a name that, when said a certain way when you know a certain medical fact about the bearer of that name, it creates a slight pun - then at least use proper pronouns!
Jenna is female. She's a she, not a "s/he". The proper pronoun is "her", not "hir"*


*Hir is a gender-neutral pronoun. It's either used when you want to be gender-correct when referring to a non-specified person (such as "when anyone ask for me, tell hir that i am unavailable" instead of "tell him", because you don't know whether the person asking will be male or female), or when referring to an individual that identifies neither as male nor as female.
Neither is the case here - we know who we are talking about, and Jenna is clearly female and self-identified as such. Chocula tries to cleverly hide the assertion that she is not actually female behind the usage of a politically correct pronoun - in a context where it is not correct at all.
(or he's just a dumb ignoramus who uses a word without knowing what it is used for)

[Instant Sunrise]

S/he picked hir name as a provocation, I'm guessing on purpose because I don't know and will never meet hir. If I had seen a contestant with a name like that, I would have DQ'd them on the name alone! Conversely, I probably wouldn't let a contestant named Seymour Butts compete in Mr. Universe, because the name alone would distract from the contest. But I'm an asshole, so just ignore me.

Yes, you are an asshole. No, i won't ignore you. If you got to complain about a name that, when said a certain way when you know a certain medical fact about the bearer of that name, it creates a slight pun - then at least use proper pronouns!
Jenna is female. She's a she, not a "s/he". The proper pronoun is "her", not "hir"*


*Hir is a gender-neutral pronoun. It's either used when you want to be gender-correct when referring to a non-specified person (such as "when anyone ask for me, tell hir that i am unavailable" instead of "tell him", because you don't know whether the person asking will be male or female), or when referring to an individual that identifies neither as male nor as female.
Neither is the case here - we know who we are talking about, and Jenna is clearly female and self-identified as such. Chocula tries to cleverly hide the assertion that she is not actually female behind the usage of a politically correct pronoun - in a context where it is not correct at all.
(or he's just a dumb ignoramus who uses a word without knowing what it is used for)

He also didn't check the bottom of the barrel thread where that exact joke was already made.