Fuck-off HUGE Tornado in northern Texas

[Aaron MkII]

Journalistic ethics? Where have you been for the last ten years?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Journalistic ethics? Where have you been for the last ten years?

An ivory tower. I expect a lack of journalistic ethics from cynical old major network hacks and tabloids. Not a student paper where the kids are still wet-behind-the-ears and idealistic.

[Aaron MkII]

Well it's good practice for later in life.

[Sky Captain]

Don't you think just maybe this scenario occured to the structural engineers who design skyscrapers? Of course they design for all known weather conditions plus safety margin, but that only covers structural collapse, not economic damage.

I had no idea skyscrapers are designed to that high standard. I was expecting they are built to stand up only to strong hurricane 250 km/h winds not F5 tornadoes which can exceed 400 km/h and statistically are highly unlikey to hit any given spot.

[Zaune]

I'm totally unfamiliar with the area in question, but I heard something on the news about the soil in the area being unsuitable for basements and below ground shelters - something my area also needs to deal with. Fortunately, there are now alternatives that seem to work at least as well as the average basement, but the problem is to first get people to pay for these shelters/panic rooms...

The obvious solution would seem to be public shelters built and stocked by the county. They can always spin them as being useful in the event of a terrorist bioweapon attack if the idea of tornado-proof shelters for all sections of society is too collectivist for the general public.

...and secondly to get them to USE them when the weather gets that bad. There always seems to be some yajoo standing in the backyard filming while saying "Hur, hur, that's a big twister!" instead of running for cover while his (it's almost always a "he") SO can be heard faintly in the background screaming "GET YOUR ASS BACK DOWN HERE YOU IDIOT YOU'RE GOING TO GET KILLED!"

There's no helping some people, is there?

[Broomstick]

I'm totally unfamiliar with the area in question, but I heard something on the news about the soil in the area being unsuitable for basements and below ground shelters - something my area also needs to deal with. Fortunately, there are now alternatives that seem to work at least as well as the average basement, but the problem is to first get people to pay for these shelters/panic rooms...

The obvious solution would seem to be public shelters built and stocked by the county. They can always spin them as being useful in the event of a terrorist bioweapon attack if the idea of tornado-proof shelters for all sections of society is too collectivist for the general public.

Tornado shelters don't require "stocking", you're not in them that long. A bare room with walls thick enough/durable enough to protect you from flying debris is all you need. A funnel cloud is overhead for less than two minutes, in many cases just seconds.

The other thing is that you can NOT centralize these - frequently, there is simply not enough time to go somewhere else. You need a place for people to run to in minutes, and I mean on foot. If people have to wake up at 2 am, get dressed, and drive somewhere it's not going to work. A 10 minute warning is extraordinary. Last time a tornado went through town it just missed my home by about 4 blocks - it was the middle of the night, no radio or TV on, the spouse and I were sleeping, and our "warning" was the debris hitting the house, the stuff kicked up by the twister falling out of the sky. That's very close proximity, only seconds away. (Although we didn't get a direct hit, we did have a small tree skewer the roof of the building and coming to rest in a second floor unit's bathroom. It was about 10 meters long, so a sizable portion remained sticking up out of the building. It's not just what's directly under the funnel that takes damage.) Also, warnings sort of require that the twister already exist and be spotted on the ground - if you're where the tornado first forms you can be sort of screwed.

You really do need lots of little shelters all over.

Big box stores have public toilets that double as storm shelters. These are typically double or triple course cinderblock or concrete with a steel reinforced ceiling/roof (based on observation, I have not actually seen blueprints or one under construction) and doorways in a L shape, which may be for privacy of the gender using them, but would also cut down on flying debris entering via that opening. People in smaller establishments have used walk-in refrigerator/freezers as shelters - yes, it's cold, but you only need for a few minutes. Shopping mall restrooms also typically double as shelters, and a lot of freeway rest stops though I've also seem some that would be questionable at best for that purpose.

It's not a problem of being "collectivist", it's a problem of money. There is a certain cost to having a secure tornado shelter, a shelter that might not actually ever be needed during the life of a building because even in Tornado Alley most locations go decades, if not longer, between actual twisters. You can get some of the value back if the shelter can used for another purpose in the meanwhile (like massively overbuild rest rooms). Tornado bunkers for places like trailer parks often double as storage for things like lawn care equipment. I've lived in many apartment buildings where the building basement is accessible and the de facto place to run.

It used to be ALL construction in Tornado Alley had basements or someplace to go, but in the 1970's and for a couple decades while the weather went through a relatively quiet phase, and people became more mobile, that stopped being the practice. People moving here from other places hadn't grown up with the hazard. Builders for new residences were trying to cut costs and didn't have to live in the places they built, so they stopped making basements and didn't promote above-ground safe rooms. The truth is, for most EF0 to EF1 tornadoes, which most of them are, an interior room or closet with some blankets over your head will probably be enough to get through, even if your residence takes heavy damage. Even if you don't have a full basement, crouching in a crawl space will give you protection - if your residence has a crawl space underneath, not all do.

There is now a brisk business in after-market safe rooms, either reinforcing something like a closet, or installing a shelter either in the residence or even in the backyard. Typically, these can be used for storage most of the time. This is fine for the homeowner, but renters do not have the right to make such alterations and convincing the landlord can often be difficult to impossible if he or she is being a cheap bastard.

The thing is that nothing is going to guarantee survival in an EF5 outside of a underground bunker about 3-4 meters under the dirt (or the central area of a modern skyscraper provided it's not line-of-sight to windows or open enough to allow the winds to scour the interior once the windows are blown out). Fortunately, EF5's are very rare. Or at least they have been.

...and secondly to get them to USE them when the weather gets that bad. There always seems to be some yajoo standing in the backyard filming while saying "Hur, hur, that's a big twister!" instead of running for cover while his (it's almost always a "he") SO can be heard faintly in the background screaming "GET YOUR ASS BACK DOWN HERE YOU IDIOT YOU'RE GOING TO GET KILLED!"

There's no helping some people, is there?

Nope.

Bottom line, the only really effective way to guarantee enough shelters for a place is to mandate either basements or storm rooms in new construction - forcing owners of old structures to retrofit is almost impossible, although anything older than 40 years typically has something of the sort anyway because, like I said, until around 1970 that's the way things were normally done. If it's incorporated at time of construction the costs aren't so high and the results usually look better. They started mandating this for trailer parks awhile back and while the trailers are still typically devastated the death and injury rate for the residents have dropped.

[Sky Captain]

I'm curious why they don't build basements under new buildings in US? Is it becaue of high water table? A basement is basically another floor level of a building useful for many different purposes, storage space for garden tools, firewood and all sorts of stuff that accumulates in house, garage.
Here most new buildings have basement not because we have strong tornadoes, but for reasons I mentioned above.

As for tornado shelters, why they should be that expensive? A 2 m long section of large diameter sewer pipe burried vertically with secure lid on top would be good enough and would cost very little. Here I could build such shelter probably for less than 300 euros if I do all the work myself.

[Simon_Jester]

Broomstick's better qualified to say, but if I had to guess, it would be a time and effort thing. Large multi-story buildings in the US are more likely to have basements, but a lot of the single-family homes are simple wood frame buildings with some kind of wall material nailed onto the wood framework. I would expect that adding a basement adds a lot of cost to building a house like that.

So a lot of it might just be the imperatives of suburban construction in the US- the middle class moved out of the cities and into housing developments that were built very quickly out of standardized, wood-frame single-family homes. That resulted in a lot of homes being built in a hurry, basement or no basement.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I know in California, specifically the central valley, almost no new homes have basements because its expensive and oftentimes the water table is very shallow. Also, the abundance of lateral space means you can have a large garage or shed instead of a 'vertical' storage under the house.

[Questor]

Down here in the south (and presumably the north), there's also issues with having big holes in a foundation.

Our building codes in CA are as concerned with a ground that doesn't do what it's told reliably.

[Zaune]

Tornado shelters don't require "stocking", you're not in them that long. A bare room with walls thick enough/durable enough to protect you from flying debris is all you need. A funnel cloud is overhead for less than two minutes, in many cases just seconds.

The other thing is that you can NOT centralize these - frequently, there is simply not enough time to go somewhere else. You need a place for people to run to in minutes, and I mean on foot. If people have to wake up at 2 am, get dressed, and drive somewhere it's not going to work. A 10 minute warning is extraordinary. Last time a tornado went through town it just missed my home by about 4 blocks - it was the middle of the night, no radio or TV on, the spouse and I were sleeping, and our "warning" was the debris hitting the house, the stuff kicked up by the twister falling out of the sky. That's very close proximity, only seconds away. (Although we didn't get a direct hit, we did have a small tree skewer the roof of the building and coming to rest in a second floor unit's bathroom. It was about 10 meters long, so a sizable portion remained sticking up out of the building. It's not just what's directly under the funnel that takes damage.) Also, warnings sort of require that the twister already exist and be spotted on the ground - if you're where the tornado first forms you can be sort of screwed.

You really do need lots of little shelters all over.

By "stocked" I was primarily thinnking of emergency medical supplies, but it'd also be useful if they were set up to be used as emergency accomodation for anyone whose house is rendered uninhabitable. I see your point about not centralising them; I was thinking something along the lines of requiring all new and existing housing developments to have a public shelter every three or four blocks, which would cater for most people's needs even if anyone with impaired mobility would still need one in their own home. D'you have the big housing developers that buy a huge tract of land and put up fifty cookie cutter McMansions in one go? Requiring them to front the costs of building tornado shelters the way trailer parks are might take some of the sting out of it for the county.

And thanks for the rest of the info; I was honestly somewhat worried about what you're supposed to do if you pull off the freeway to buy gas in an unfamiliar town when one hits.

I'm curious why they don't build basements under new buildings in US? Is it becaue of high water table? A basement is basically another floor level of a building useful for many different purposes, storage space for garden tools, firewood and all sorts of stuff that accumulates in house, garage.
Here most new buildings have basement not because we have strong tornadoes, but for reasons I mentioned above.

As for tornado shelters, why they should be that expensive? A 2 m long section of large diameter sewer pipe burried vertically with secure lid on top would be good enough and would cost very little. Here I could build such shelter probably for less than 300 euros if I do all the work myself.

I wonder if some of the designs the British came up with for air-raid shelters could be adapted for the purpose? The Anderson shelter (described in detail here) was basically a prefabricated semi-underground bunker capable of withstanding anything short of a direct hit, and pretty cheap to build at that.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I'll agree Broomstick's probably more qualified to answer this.

A 2 m long section of large diameter sewer pipe burried vertically with secure lid on top would be good enough and would cost very little.

I'm willing to bet this won't meet building codes for a shelter in most places, and you almost certainly are going to have to get a permit to build it anywhere but more rural areas. Likewise, I'm guessing you'd have to get any kind of built structure inspected afterwards in anyplace that you have to get a permit to "raise" it, since it needs to meet local building codes. That said 2m is also probably deep enough that you would have to consider issues like ground shifting and water leakage causing long term issues.

[Wing Commander MAD]

And thanks for the rest of the info; I was honestly somewhat worried about what you're supposed to do if you pull off the freeway to buy gas in an unfamiliar town when one hits.

Find a nearby solid structure to take shelfter in, say within 50-100ft max of your location. Barring that, find a ditch to lie in or any lower area of ground, get along the sides of an overpass, etc., the big thing is minimizing the area exposed to flying/falling debris.

[Broomstick]

I'm curious why they don't build basements under new buildings in US? Is it becaue of high water table?

In my area that's a major reason. It's not unusual for those structures that do have basements to have multiple sump-pumps to keep them dry. If the power goes out you will have standing water. This part of the state is only slightly higher than Lake Michigan and quite a bit of it is still swamp for part or even all of the year.

As for tornado shelters, why they should be that expensive? A 2 m long section of large diameter sewer pipe burried vertically with secure lid on top would be good enough and would cost very little. Here I could build such shelter probably for less than 300 euros if I do all the work myself.

Building codes, required inspections, and so forth. Oh, sure, a homeowner might well be able to build one on the sly, but not someone in rental accommodations.

Broomstick's better qualified to say, but if I had to guess, it would be a time and effort thing. Large multi-story buildings in the US are more likely to have basements, but a lot of the single-family homes are simple wood frame buildings with some kind of wall material nailed onto the wood framework. I would expect that adding a basement adds a lot of cost to building a house like that.

Yep. Could be 1/3 or 1/2 the cost of some types of structures. Keep in mind, too, that in this area you can't just line a hole with cinderblocks, you need water barriers and the plumbing for sumps and pumps. The structure has to be able to withstand water pressure from the ground around it if it's in an area like mine, as most of it will be below the water table.

So a lot of it might just be the imperatives of suburban construction in the US- the middle class moved out of the cities and into housing developments that were built very quickly out of standardized, wood-frame single-family homes. That resulted in a lot of homes being built in a hurry, basement or no basement.

^ This.

Having a basement is an amenity, but it's not seen as essential by everyone and it does add to cost.

D'you have the big housing developers that buy a huge tract of land and put up fifty cookie cutter McMansions in one go? Requiring them to front the costs of building tornado shelters the way trailer parks are might take some of the sting out of it for the county.

I think that would be an excellent idea, the only trouble is implementing it.

And thanks for the rest of the info; I was honestly somewhat worried about what you're supposed to do if you pull off the freeway to buy gas in an unfamiliar town when one hits.

If you get caught like that any building is better than being out in the open. Even a garden shed is better than nothing, though of course a solid building with a basement is best. Most of us who have lived in the Midwest a long time have some idea of how to take shelter, so don't hesitate to ask the locals for help.

DO NOT stay in your vehicle – as recent video has shown they go airborne all too easily.

If there are no buildings around and you have to take shelter get out of the vehicle and get as low as you can – under something, in a ditch beside the road. Lie face down, cover your head as much as possible with clothing, arms, etc.

Tornadoes also frequently come with pouring rain, high winds, hail (sometimes large enough to cause injury), lightning, and just about any other severe weather effect you can imagine. Even if don't get a direct hit you'll still want to be undercover.

[Ryan Thunder]

If you can't build shelters in a tornado-prone area, why build there in the first place?

[Enigma]

I thought that having basements were the norm. Back in Canada, I do not remember a single house that did not have a basement. New or old, all houses have basements. But after moving to Ohio, I found it strange that there are a lot of houses without basements. Just too weird. One thing for sure, when I have the finances available to buy a house, it will have to have a basement.

[Dave]

If you can't build shelters in a tornado-prone area, why build there in the first place?

Because it's cheap and the benefits outweigh the risk?

Take me for example: I moved to KC for a good job, and currently live in a 3 story apartment building, and not on the ground floor. I need to ask the management, but I wasn't told about any tornado shelters. I'm not thrilled about this fact, but the place is cheap and the chance of a tornado tearing through this somewhat hilly terrain and nailing my particular apartment building are somewhat slim. I accept the risk, and point out that it's fairly difficult to be perfectly safe in a tornado. (The closest I ever came was when I lived in a 2 story fraternity made entirely of cinderblock, with a concrete roof. We never bothered with tornado sirens, as the roof is a significant structural component of the house and if the roof comes off we're probably all dead anyway, no matter what floor you're on. )

[madd0ct0r]

I still don't understand why having a shelter isn't part of the construction codes. I know cheap ass USA construction methods get a bit panicky at the thought of a 2x2x2 reinforced concrete gf room (on screw piles as a personal preference) but when you're building the house it's a relatively minor cost.

much cheaper then retro-fitting anyway.

[FaxModem1]

Here in North Texas the ground is mostly clay, meaning that the digging to build a shelter or basement is rather expensive to do so. This is why most things here are above ground whereas in other cities they are underground.

[Broomstick]

I still don't understand why having a shelter isn't part of the construction codes. I know cheap ass USA construction methods get a bit panicky at the thought of a 2x2x2 reinforced concrete gf room (on screw piles as a personal preference) but when you're building the house it's a relatively minor cost.

much cheaper then retro-fitting anyway.

The free market didn't demand it.

In the old, old days houses were built one by one for the people who would live in them and had basements. In the latter half of the 20thCentury they were mass-produced by companies seeking to maximize profits by keeping costs as low as possible and prices as high as possible. They didn't know the eventual buyers and didn't have to live in the shitboxes built. With increased mobility buyers didn't always know the local hazards when they moved in and wouldn't know enough to demand features that would be obvious to those who had lived in the area for generations.

Originally, the requirement for basements wasn't in the local codes because the need was so obvious everyone built one. Then, when new folks poured into these areas, they didn't know to demand a change to the codes.

Here's a comparable problem involving flood-prone areas around here - ALL the old construction in this area, 80+ years (yes, Europe and Asia, I hear you laughing about that with your buildings hundreds or even thousands of years old, but age is relative in this case) almost never floods. Why? Because those people built on the "high" ground around here, and some of them were even high enough/dry enough to build at least a half-sunk basement. By the 1980's all the easy to get higher, drier ground was taken, so developers started building on what was left, and people leaving Chicago for the suburbs bought it, not understanding the geography. And those developments flood. Often. Why didn't the building codes forbid it? Well, in the old, old days people knew better and even if someone built there no one would buy it, it was so obvious there didn't seem to be a need to write the rule down. Later, the developers were just interested in profit, the buyers didn't know better, and so much profit was being made it became politically impossible to set the land off-limits. What really changed was a Federal law that defined wetlands and made it illegal to drain or develop them. People around here howled because all of a sudden you couldn't build on large tracts of land around here - but those lands are usually underwater during part of the year. It really is better if they're left undeveloped.

So, locally, there are reasons tied to the "free market" (profit! Profit! PROFIT!) why some things aren't required. Unless sufficient grass roots efforts are made to overcome the political inertia (and corruption - some of the big developers has lots of bucks and aren't afraid to buy politicians if they can), or a rule change is imposed from outside, it doesn't happen.

[Aaron MkII]

I thought that having basements were the norm. Back in Canada, I do not remember a single house that did not have a basement. New or old, all houses have basements. But after moving to Ohio, I found it strange that there are a lot of houses without basements. Just too weird. One thing for sure, when I have the finances available to buy a house, it will have to have a basement.

Depends on the area, they are common in Ontario but not the Lower Mainland, possibly due to the high water table.

[madd0ct0r]

@Broomstick - that's precisley the sort of situation where a benevolent goverment (local even) should be sticking it in the fucking codes. becuase people are not good at estimating risk, and are not good without some training/experinece in building sensibly.

[Broomstick]

Oh, I agree, but the government corruption around here is on par with Chicago. It was only a few years ago that the FBI put 2/3 of the city council of East Chicago in jail, for example. The government around here is not what I would call "benevolent".

Which is why, when Gary's Mayor because a customer of my shoe store, the reception of said news was... somewhat mixed within the company. The lady has power, and can do good things for us. She can also make life miserable if we piss her off.

[Sky Captain]

In my area that's a major reason. It's not unusual for those structures that do have basements to have multiple sump-pumps to keep them dry. If the power goes out you will have standing water. This part of the state is only slightly higher than Lake Michigan and quite a bit of it is still swamp for part or even all of the year.

Is it that hard to waterproof concrete? House where I live (built 4 decades ago during Soviet era) have basement that have floor usually 0,2 - 0,7 m below water table depending on season and it always stays dry without any pumps.

Here's a comparable problem involving flood-prone areas around here - ALL the old construction in this area, 80+ years (yes, Europe and Asia, I hear you laughing about that with your buildings hundreds or even thousands of years old, but age is relative in this case) almost never floods. Why? Because those people built on the "high" ground around here, and some of them were even high enough/dry enough to build at least a half-sunk basement. By the 1980's all the easy to get higher, drier ground was taken, so developers started building on what was left,

Yeah, here before economic bubble bursted few thousand houses were built by developers in swampy grounds around Riga that have similar problems - they often flood during spring and have serious quality issues. My friend rented one such house few years ago and roof was leaking in places, insulation was crappy and general interrior build quality was quite bad and the whole house started to slowly develop a small list because it was built on unstable peat. It was made to look nice initially but once you started living there all sorts of defects started to turn up. He also complained about lack of basement where he could store his stuff.
People here sometimes call those houses "matchboxes" because they were built using cheapest materials available without the intent to last long. Incidentally large fraction of those houses now stay empty because once economic bubble bursted few people want to live there even though now you could buy or rent one quite cheaply.
People who live in apartment, have money and want their own house, but don't need in NOW usually contract a small construction company to build a custom house for them and those houses typically are built well because the future owner overlooks the construction process.

[Broomstick]

In my area that's a major reason. It's not unusual for those structures that do have basements to have multiple sump-pumps to keep them dry. If the power goes out you will have standing water. This part of the state is only slightly higher than Lake Michigan and quite a bit of it is still swamp for part or even all of the year.

Is it that hard to waterproof concrete?

I don't know. I don't know much about waterproofing concrete.

House where I live (built 4 decades ago during Soviet era) have basement that have floor usually 0,2 - 0,7 m below water table depending on season and it always stays dry without any pumps.

We have homes here where, during a typical rain, most of the property floods ankle to knee deep in water. Smart builders actually put those homes on raised blocks (typically with a decorative skirting around them). Needless to say, those don't have basements. It would be illegal to build on a such a lot now because it would meet the definition of a Federally protected wetland, but those houses were put there decades ago, before that particular law was passed.

I don't understand all the particulars involved. It might be a matter of economics as much as anything else.