Ted Nugent: Free Speech or Death Threat?

[Crossroads Inc.]

So here is the latest from Yahoo News

Rocker "Ted Nugent" at the NRA Function gave a huge long winded rant about Obama the includes the following gems.

The U.S. Secret Service is looking into a violent rant by "Catch Scratch Fever" rocker Ted Nugent in which he denounced President Barack Obama and his top advisers as "evil" and urged National Rifle Association members to help "chop their heads off in November."
"I'll tell you this right now: If Barack Obama becomes the president in November, again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year," Nugent said. "We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads off in November. Any questions?"

Nugent, speaking at the organization's annual gathering over the weekend, praised NRA members but warned that if they did not "get everybody in your lives to clean house in this vile, evil, America-hating administration, I don't even know what you're made out of."

"If the coyote's in your living room, pissing on your couch, it's not the coyote's fault. It's your fault for not shooting him," he said.He also denounced the administration as "criminals" and said a Democratic victory in November would mean "we'll be a suburb of Indonesia next year" — an apparent reference to Obama's boyhood time there.

Secret Service spokesman Brian Leary told Yahoo News: "We are aware of the incident and we are conducting appropriate follow-up."
And a spokeswoman for Mitt Romney, whom Nugent has endorsed, distanced the campaign from his remarks.
"Divisive language is offensive no matter what side of the political aisle it comes from. Mitt Romney believes everyone needs to be civil," Andrea Saul said by email.

The Right is naturally falling over themselves to say it is "Free Speech"
The question I wonder when you have something THIS Blatantly provocative, does anything think this may be something Even the far right will distance themselves form?

[Flagg]

One, fucker needs to go to jail for awhile. Two, did he not see the end of Braveheart?

[Purple]

A question. Can he be seriously expected to act upon what he said or directly aid and/or coordinate with those that will? As in, is he actually anything but all words? Because if not I kind of see the point of the free speech angle. The only possible way that I see you could argue against it is that somehow someone will get inspired by this and act on his own. But at that point we get into the whole discussion of remote liability.

I mean sure, the guy is an idiot it would seem. And he uses violent language. But that's all there is to it. We can't go arresting people for being like that, no matter how much we want to.

[Grumman]

"We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads off in November. Any questions?"

This is not a death threat. Colourful language, yes, but if it was a death threat, he wouldn't be waiting until the next election to kill someone who is already in power, would he?

[weemadando]

Why not? There's no need for violent revolution if your guy wins.

[SCRawl]

It's objectionable, perhaps, but not actionable. Not from what I read in that article.

[Thanas]

Meh. Not in good taste, but nothing illegal either.

[Gandalf]

Remember in 2004 when speech like this got you a visit from the USSS?

"We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads off in November. Any questions?"

This is not a death threat. Colourful language, yes, but if it was a death threat, he wouldn't be waiting until the next election to kill someone who is already in power, would he?

Think of it as a hostage situation. "Give me what I want (my guy) or the victim (your guy) gets it."

[Flagg]

You guys are ignoring how he said he'd "either be dead or in jail this time next year". For what exactly?

[Dark Hellion]

One, fucker needs to go to jail for awhile. Two, did he not see the end of Braveheart?

I'm not the only one who sees the irony that after a hyperbole statement about being sent to jail that Flagg's first response is "send him to jail" am I?

[SCRawl]

You guys are ignoring how he said he'd "either be dead or in jail this time next year". For what exactly?

He wasn't specific, so we're left to speculate, and he can't be responsible for how others speculate about what he meant. If he'd said something like "I'll be either dead or in jail this time next year, thanks to the president's secret service detail", then the speculations become far narrower, and possibly actionable. He could very reasonably make the argument that his statement as he made it could have meant that he would engage in civil disobedience which could result in his arrest or (in the event of a trigger-happy police officer) his death.

[Flagg]

One, fucker needs to go to jail for awhile. Two, did he not see the end of Braveheart?

I'm not the only one who sees the irony that after a hyperbole statement about being sent to jail that Flagg's first response is "send him to jail" am I?

Why shouldn't he go to jail? The Braveheart shit was hyperbole, the rest is incitement at best and a clear threat at worst.

[Flagg]

You guys are ignoring how he said he'd "either be dead or in jail this time next year". For what exactly?

He wasn't specific, so we're left to speculate, and he can't be responsible for how others speculate about what he meant. If he'd said something like "I'll be either dead or in jail this time next year, thanks to the president's secret service detail", then the speculations become far narrower, and possibly actionable. He could very reasonably make the argument that his statement as he made it could have meant that he would engage in civil disobedience which could result in his arrest or (in the event of a trigger-happy police officer) his death.

If you wanna give a guy who said that at an NRA convention to a bunch of gun owners who hate the President the benefit of the doubt you're free to do so. I choose not to and don't think the Secret Service should, either.

[Sea Skimmer]

Its pretty well established in the US that you'll only face penalties for making threatening statements like this if they are found to be serious, direct and credible. That test isn't likely to pass here like it or not. It is near certain however that he will get a personal visit from secret service agents who will interview him, and if he makes such statement after that, or basically goes out of his way to make it clear to the secret service that he means his words as specific threats, he'll be likely to get into real trouble. In any event, even if the Secret Service thinks its a threat, it isn't actually a call they get to make as to arresting or charging him with anything. They'd have to pass it onto the FBI in turn for further investigation.

[Flagg]

Its pretty well established in the US that you'll only face penalties for making threatening statements like this if they are found to be serious, direct and credible. That test isn't likely to pass here like it or not. It is near certain however that he will get a personal visit from secret service agents who will interview him, and if he makes such statement after that, or basically goes out of his way to make it clear to the secret service that he means his words as specific threats, he'll be likely to get into real trouble. In any event, even if the Secret Service thinks its a threat, it isn't actually a call they get to make as to arresting or charging him with anything. They'd have to pass it onto the FBI in turn for further investigation.

He's made threatening statements in the past, as well. Like saying Obama could suck on the barrel of his machinegun.

[SCRawl]

If you wanna give a guy who said that at an NRA convention to a bunch of gun owners who hate the President the benefit of the doubt you're free to do so. I choose not to and don't think the Secret Service should, either.

Not getting the benefit of the doubt is not the standard for putting someone in prison. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard, and you can't seriously believe that this statement rises to it. As Skimmer points out, it might be worth investigating, and who knows what could turn up then?

[weemadando]

It's S.O.P. say something that will incite people, but make it just vague or outrageous enough that you can say "I never meant it that way! Can't help crazy people!" the next time we have a Giffords or Utoye.

Letter of the law is on his side. Spirit of the law? Not so much.

[Flagg]

If you wanna give a guy who said that at an NRA convention to a bunch of gun owners who hate the President the benefit of the doubt you're free to do so. I choose not to and don't think the Secret Service should, either.

Not getting the benefit of the doubt is not the standard for putting someone in prison. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard, and you can't seriously believe that this statement rises to it. As Skimmer points out, it might be worth investigating, and who knows what could turn up then?

Last I checked you don't have to be a judge or on a jury to think someone should be in jail for something or that they did something illegal. The fact that he has a history of making these remarks is damning as well.

[Panzersharkcat]

And yet he has never acted on them, the last I checked. It's stupid and he deserves a smack across the head for it but jail, not so much.

[SCRawl]

Last I checked you don't have to be a judge or on a jury to think someone should be in jail for something or that they did something illegal.

No, but you have to think that a jury of his Nugent's peers -- not necessarily people who are nuts, mind you, but otherwise ordinary citizens -- could reasonably find him guilty to have any intellectual weight behind your opinion.

[aerius]

Last I checked you don't have to be a judge or on a jury to think someone should be in jail for something or that they did something illegal. The fact that he has a history of making these remarks is damning as well.

If you're gonna play that game I think you should be in jail getting you ass reamed. You're clearly a racist who thinks white and hispanic guys should be thrown in jail without proof of guilt, and in fact you have a nice history of making remarks to that effect. By your own standards you should be locked behind bars right now for the safety of our society.

Seriously, grow a fucking brain and quit being such a butt-hurt dumbass. Oh no, that big bad Ted Nugent offended your delicate little feewings, lock him in jail where he belongs!!

[Flagg]

Last I checked you don't have to be a judge or on a jury to think someone should be in jail for something or that they did something illegal. The fact that he has a history of making these remarks is damning as well.

If you're gonna play that game I think you should be in jail getting you ass reamed. You're clearly a racist who thinks white and hispanic guys should be thrown in jail without proof of guilt, and in fact you have a nice history of making remarks to that effect. By your own standards you should be locked behind bars right now for the safety of our society.

Seriously, grow a fucking brain and quit being such a butt-hurt dumbass. Oh no, that big bad Ted Nugent offended your delicate little feewings, lock him in jail where he belongs!!

Vendetta much?

[Flagg]

And yet he has never acted on them, the last I checked. It's stupid and he deserves a smack across the head for it but jail, not so much.

Umm, the whole point of laws against making threats are that the person making them be stopped from acting on said threats. Should we wait for him to take a shot at Obama before acting, or can we get our heads out of our asses and recognize a threat where we see one?

To put this in context, this was said at the national NRA convention in front of people who despise Obama and own guns. If you watch the video it's clearly not said in jest and he goes at length to describe how he views Obama and anyone who supports him as traitors. This was a threat.

[Sea Skimmer]

He's made threatening statements in the past, as well. Like saying Obama could suck on the barrel of his machinegun.

Well then the Secret Service has almost certainly opened a file on him in the past... and that could actually help him get out of this if they've judged him not a credible threat before. If they think he's serious before and now he'll be a lot more likely to end up facing some kind of charge, but generally the Secret Service is very reluctant to do so because the fact is talk is cheap and the real threats generally come from silent types. These statements were not totally ambiguous, but not completely explicit either which means a trial conviction would be uncertain. Charges have been filed against IIRC at least one person for making verbal or written threats against Obama so far, maybe more, but its really really uncommon. If the US tried to put everyone who made a threat against the president on trial we'd end up with every Secret Service agent busy giving testimony and nobody out guarding him.. as can you imagine how many are made online every single day? Statistically most US domestic terrorists don't talk or put out written demands/statements until after they've made at least one attack and that's why the people who talk about it generally are sent off with a warning they are being watched.

[Panzersharkcat]

And yet he has never acted on them, the last I checked. It's stupid and he deserves a smack across the head for it but jail, not so much.

Umm, the whole point of laws against making threats are that the person making them be stopped from acting on said threats. Should we wait for him to take a shot at Obama before acting, or can we get our heads out of our asses and recognize a threat where we see one?

To put this in context, this was said at the national NRA convention in front of people who despise Obama and own guns. If you watch the video it's clearly not said in jest and he goes at length to describe how he views Obama and anyone who supports him as traitors. This was a threat.

Talk is cheap. There are steps in between jail people who mouth off idiotically and wait until shooting starts to intervene. Given his history of blathering like that and never taking any action, he's not likely to follow through. Now if he started trying to find President Obama's schedule and trying to stalk him, then the Secret Service should whisk him away. But until he takes steps like that, I don't think there's cause to jail him.