Q vs. Han Solo and Chewbacca

[Lord Poe]

And you jumping through hoops trying to grasp for those elusive straws is the height of hilarity. If you contend that the Sisko incident was a ttotal illusion, then you must contend that everything we've ever seen Q do is an illusion.

Leap of Logic.

Really? Prove it. Again, if I had a holodeck and a transporter, I could be Q too, and you'd never know it.

This is of course, bullshit, right? Well then, we are back to square one. Sisko pops Q in the face, catching Mr. Omnipotent off guard and causes pain. So can Han Solo. So can Chewbacca.

Maybe, if they're in a boxing ring created by Q and he's begging them to lay one on him. He got knocked down in a situation he created specifically to give Sisko the chance to knock him down.[/quote]

Prove that Q's goal was to allow Sisko to hit him. He was GOADING Sisko's perchant for violence. He was being a smartass, and got hit, AND, he was generally surprised that he WAS hit.

He's a billion-year-old immortal being

According to him. For a billion year old being, he's suddenly gotten progessively older and fatter over the past 16 years.

whose hobby is pissing people off. If he could be killed by a sniper rifle, odds are it would have happened.

Most people are awed by Q's smoke and mirror tricks. Sisko is the only one in Trek who has actually acted physically against him. Not even Worf thought to attack him.

We don't know if he felt any pain from Sisko's punch.

Yes we do. He held his nose after Sisko hit it. Just like a human would do. I don't see Superman doing that when he gets hit by bullets. So prove your assertion, using any canon proof from that episode, that "We don't know if he felt any pain from Sisko's punch"

In "Q and the Grey", the female Q received a bruise on her face, not by a "Q weapon", but by being tossed about the human made bridge on the human made starship Voyager.

Let's just ignore the fact that she was POWERLESS at the time, and that she probably got the bruise from bouncing off the barrier to the Continuum.[/quote]

So suddenly the Q barrier has an iron door you can smack your head into? Give me a fucking break. BTW, which Q took away her powers? Earlier in this thread, you said only a Q can take another Q's power away...

And we've never seen Guinan have anything CLOSE to Q powers, even when it would have benefited her to use them. So her attack in "Q Who" was going to be physical.

Oh yes, she waves her fingers at a damn near omnipotent being because she intends to jump him. That makes sooo much sense. [/quote]

So far, all your refutations are "maybe, coulda, if" with NOTHING from the canon episodes to back them up, while mine are using WHAT WE SEE in those episodes against you. You have yet to prove Guinan has super powers that radiate from her fingers. However, I've proven that physical impacts damages the Q. Therefore, unless you have any evidence from that episode to the contrary, my assertion that Guinan was about to physically attack Q fits with all the other evidence.

for taking things at face value, but Q is an immortal superbeing who can hang out before (and during) the Big Bang, shrink to the size of a proton, retain sentience in the form of an amoeba and bring back the DEAD (Riker could have resurrected the little girl in "Hide and Q").

Again, all the things I could do with a transporter and a holodeck. Tell me, did Q bring Earth to the Delta Quadrant and hang it outside Janeway's window in "Death Wish", or was it an illusion?

You needan instance of his actually being seriously hurt by physical force to claim this absurd vulnerability, not this ambiguous bullshit.

No bullshit about it. "Q-less" shows this exactly. But you can't accept that.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Of course, all of this assumes that a Q's "real" body can be damaged by physical violence at all, and that the Sisko incident wasn't a total illusion. Expecting Han Solo and Chewbacca to kill Q is the height of illogic.

Another point that no one's addressed yet is that Sisko turned out to be at least partially of the same species as the Bajoran Prophets. Whereas the Prophets may or may not be on the same level of manifestation as the Q, they are conceivably a few steps closer to the Q's plane of existence than ordinary humans. Sisko might have possessed a greater ability to interact qwith Q on his own level than an ordinary human, which may be why Q was surprised when Sisko clipped him.

This suggests a limit to Q's knowledge, but even that can be explained by Q's assumption of a human form. The human brain does impose a limit on the information one can access at any given time. Q only went to Deep Space 9 in pursuit of Vash; Sisko was likely a triviality, thus Q didn't give attention to him before going there. He then met Sisko while in human form, Q didn't have access to omniscience and thus was not informed of the fact that Sisko was not an ordinary human.

[Lord Pounder]

Another point that no one's addressed yet is that Sisko turned out to be at least partially of the same species as the Bajoran Prophets. Whereas the Prophets may or may not be on the same level of manifestation as the Q, they are conceivably a few steps closer to the Q's plane of existence than ordinary humans. Sisko might have possessed a greater ability to interact qwith Q on his own level than an ordinary human, which may be why Q was surprised when Sisko clipped him.

Sorry your wrong here. A prophet was inhabiting Sisko's Mums body untill she got pregenant. Sisko's mum and dad are red blooded human and nothing else. it's just that the Prophets set the conception in motion.

[Eframepilot]

Oh of course, he wasn't watching Quinn at all; he just HAPPENED to take a random look at around the same time Quinn was released? Are you going to claim that because it took minutes instead of seconds for him to show up, he must not have been watching?

Watch the episode. After Quinn poofs away the males of Voyager and says he can't bring the back, he says, "Who has the most experience with humans?" Instantly Q pops up , asking "What have you done now?" Anyone can see that Quinn called Q for assistance. If the Q were watching Quinn, they'd never have let him try to commit suicide in the first place; in fact, they could have just tossed him back in the comet before he could claim asylum.

Physical force obviously CAN hurt him, otherwise they wouldn't have weapons that can kill a Q. Doesn't mean a hand phaser would necessarily do the trick; they can't even punch a hole thruogh a thin-walled cargo container.

Of course the DEGREE of physical force is important here. Han Solo doesn't go around knocking planets out of orbits with his bare hands. And the strength or weakness of a hand phaser wouldn't stop Quinn from dumping down a black hole.

One which acts with zero mental co-ordination from Q? There is a different between "logical extrapolation" and "steaming pile of bullshit".

Why does Q need mental co-ordination to do this? You can breathe without thinking about it, right? This is NOT a complex task, and Q's powers are so diverse that he easily gets the benefit of the doubt.

Why don't you take notice of the fact that the number of stars exploding is nowhere near commensurate to the number of weapon discharges supposedly taking place in this "war?" Why do you take everything a known inveterate liar says as the gospel truth?

There are quintillions of stars in the visible universe. Given the Q Continuum spans the entire universe, we don't have to establish a one-to-one weapon discharge/supernova relation.

Or they could teleport rocks into their opponents brains' without warning. If the Q are as vulnerable as you claim, they should have infinitely many ways of killing each other without needing supernova weapons.

And so they have, since their guns do not set off supernova every time they are used. Moreover, Voyager's crew was able to use them without difficulty, hence they could not be particularly energetic or exotic. How do you know they weren't actually killing each other with simple projectile weapons, since that's exactly how they behaved?[/quote]
Again, why would the Q need supernova weapons at all if projectile weapons would do the trick? It is ludicrous to claim that billion-year-old immortal beings that can literally juggle planets can be killed with handguns; you need MUCH stronger evidence of Q actually being seriously hurt.

[Eframepilot]

Really? Prove it. Again, if I had a holodeck and a transporter, I could be Q too, and you'd never know it.

You've set up a False Dilemma: EITHER Q's powers are all real OR they are all illusion. The truth can easily be in between.

Prove that Q's goal was to allow Sisko to hit him. He was GOADING Sisko's perchant for violence. He was being a smartass, and got hit, AND, he was generally surprised that he WAS hit.

Q could have easily set up a situation where Sisko WASN'T allowed to hit him. He was surprised that Sisko acted on a violent impulse, but actually pleased. "Picard never hit me!" "I'm not Picard!" (smile) "That means you'll be easier to manipulate."

According to him. For a billion year old being, he's suddenly gotten progessively older and fatter over the past 16 years.

Yeah, so has Data. Does that "prove" he's just a guy in makeup? Q has claimed to be around for billions of years, and in the absence of other evidence, we take him at his word. Appearing as an aging 21st century actor is his choice.

Most people are awed by Q's smoke and mirror tricks. Sisko is the only one in Trek who has actually acted physically against him. Not even Worf thought to attack him.

Again, we are talking about billions of years of history here

Yes we do. He held his nose after Sisko hit it. Just like a human would do. I don't see Superman doing that when he gets hit by bullets. So prove your assertion, using any canon proof from that episode, that "We don't know if he felt any pain from Sisko's punch"

Can you see into Q's head? He was holding his chin from surprise; he couldn't believe Sisko actually did it. There is no evidence his chin was physically damaged.

So suddenly the Q barrier has an iron door you can smack your head into?

Metaphorically, it's possible. But it's moot; she was powerless.

BTW, which Q took away her powers? Earlier in this thread, you said only a Q can take another Q's power away...

A Q on the opposite side of the war, obviously. Does it really matter?

So far, all your refutations are "maybe, coulda, if" with NOTHING from the canon episodes to back them up, while mine are using WHAT WE SEE in those episodes against you. You have yet to prove Guinan has super powers that radiate from her fingers. However, I've proven that physical impacts damages the Q. Therefore, unless you have any evidence from that episode to the contrary, my assertion that Guinan was about to physically attack Q fits with all the other evidence.

You've shown that Q can be knocked down and surprised. You need more than that.

Again, all the things I could do with a transporter and a holodeck. Tell me, did Q bring Earth to the Delta Quadrant and hang it outside Janeway's window in "Death Wish", or was it an illusion?

We have no way of knowing. Given the other powers he's demonstrated, it's possible, but unlikely. I thought you wanted to take Q at face value.

No bullshit about it. "Q-less" shows this exactly. But you can't accept that.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A billion-year-old, basically all-powerful entity being vulnerable to FATAL damage from unexpected physical attacks is an extraordinary claim. Where is your extraordinary evidence? Q getting knocked down with NO sign of physical damage ain't gonna cut it.

[The Silence and I]

Where was Q hit by Sisko? I have heard different things, but Sisko is a big guy. Any punch to the face ought to leave some mark-assuming he was damaged, that is. (hint hint)

Are you too fucking stupid to see that this ability is a logical extrapolation of Q's other canon abilities? He could just put up a forcefield transparent to light, sound, and other things below a safety threshold and be practically invincible.

One which acts with zero mental co-ordination from Q? There is a different between "logical extrapolation" and "steaming pile of bullshit".

So, if Q can't run a defense forcefield for lack of mental computing power, then he can't set up the extremely complex senarios- many of you claim to be illusions. These claimed illusions must be run by what I would call impressive mental computing power. Even setting them up requires a lot of mental power. But of course Q can't run a defense field because it requires too much concentration. But it is silly to even bring that up, as you claim Q's powers are technology based. So, have his technology run his defense field... Oh wait, that would hurt my argument, best forget it.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Sorry your wrong here. A prophet was inhabiting Sisko's Mums body untill she got pregenant. Sisko's mum and dad are red blooded human and nothing else. it's just that the Prophets set the conception in motion.

Actually, as I recall from that episode, the woman who gave birth to Sisko was not the same woman who raised him as his mother. Sisko's mother was a "one-night stand".

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The episode describing Sisko's Prophet parentage is "Image In The Sand". Season Seven, Episode One. Whether or not Sisko's exotic parentage assisted in his ability to interact with a noncorporeal being on its own level is only speculation, but I feel the premises and reasoning behind it are sound enough.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Regarding Guinan's attack on Q... this is a puzzler. My guess, as a writer, is that the writers of the "finger-waggling" scene were trying to suggest that Guinan possessed some form of powers herself. Obviously, they never had an opportunity to pick up this theme with her again.

The reason Guinan was so bold with Q could be explained by the fact that she has an "echo" in the Nexus, giving her at least a partial safeguard against Q. I realize that imposes a limit on Q's reach, which the Pro-Q debaters here won't like, but it is a good explanation for Guinan's behavior toward Q.

[TheDarkling]

Regarding Guinan's attack on Q... this is a puzzler. My guess, as a writer, is that the writers of the "finger-waggling" scene were trying to suggest that Guinan possessed some form of powers herself. Obviously, they never had an opportunity to pick up this theme with her again.

The reason Guinan was so bold with Q could be explained by the fact that she has an "echo" in the Nexus, giving her at least a partial safeguard against Q. I realize that imposes a limit on Q's reach, which the Pro-Q debaters here won't like, but it is a good explanation for Guinan's behavior toward Q.

Well remember that at least to some measure Guinan has a sense extending beyond linear time (she knew about the events of the Enterprise-C return in a vague sense).

Also it's never stated to be an attack it seemed like a very defensive posture to me, so its possible that she has some form of protection from the Q but no powers with which to alter our universe (thus she can't hurt the Borg).

[Patrick Ogaard]

What do we know about Guinan in terms of unusual abilities that might bother someone using, for the sake of argument, derivatives of transporter and holodeck technologies?

#1. Guinan is capable of perceiving, if only in a very limited manner, timeline changes, and is therefore incompletely affected by such changes. A link, albeit a tenuous, Treknological and goofy one, between such resistance and transporter technology is established in DS9's Past Tense I & II. (Similarly, a relatively minor genetic or chemical modification of a humanoid, possibly along with some military resistance techniques, allows Roga Danar, from the TNG's "The Hunted" to resist and escape a transporter beam, and those same modifications made Danar undetectable as a lifeform. This is actually important for what comes later, and ties in with the "Time's Arrow" episodes. There it is revealed that Guinan is apparently on a Grand Tour, not entirely with her father's approval, and one would not tour a hazard-filled galaxy without taking appropriate measures, likely including some defensive modifications. Soran showed no equivalent abilities and was certainly not as good a shot as Guinan.)

#2. Guinan has either got an incredibly grueling daily phaser marksmanship program, or she has a combination of lots of practice and hand-eye coordination and reaction speed far beyond human capabilities.

#3. Guinan is a listener and keen observer, capable of seeing past false bravado and lies with what appears to be greater consistency than Counselor "I-Feel-Something" Troi.

#4. Guinan has encountered Q previously to his first appearing on the Enterprise-D.


We know that Q, in human form at the very least, has a limited reaction time and must generally think about what he wants to happen and then either execute a specific gesture or concentrate intensely for a moment before anything happens.

If Q's powers are primarily dependent on the equivalent of transporter and holodeck effects, then Guinan's partial resistance to changes of her environment and her level of awareness of her surroundings, coupled with an extremely high reaction speed, could allow her to resist Q's standard tricks and/or attack him before he can do his little finger-snapping routine. Then it's just a matter of watching Whoopi Goldberg doing Matrix-style speeded-up wire-fu and sending Delancie flying about in a mangled cartwheeling mess of blood and broken bone.

It does not have to be that way, but it would match fairly neatly the technological interpreatation of the Q. (After all, even the act of reanimating a dead child, as Riker did when granted Q abilities, is a logical extension of transporter effects.)

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Regarding Guinan's attack on Q... this is a puzzler. My guess, as a writer, is that the writers of the "finger-waggling" scene were trying to suggest that Guinan possessed some form of powers herself. Obviously, they never had an opportunity to pick up this theme with her again.

The reason Guinan was so bold with Q could be explained by the fact that she has an "echo" in the Nexus, giving her at least a partial safeguard against Q. I realize that imposes a limit on Q's reach, which the Pro-Q debaters here won't like, but it is a good explanation for Guinan's behavior toward Q.

Well remember that at least to some measure Guinan has a sense extending beyond linear time (she knew about the events of the Enterprise-C return in a vague sense).

Also it's never stated to be an attack it seemed like a very defensive posture to me, so its possible that she has some form of protection from the Q but no powers with which to alter our universe (thus she can't hurt the Borg).

Right, these defenses and awareness could logically be an effect of her "echo" in the Nexus -- keep in mind that Picard was able to exit the Nexus and emerge into any time or place he wanted. Guinan's "echo" may act as an anchor. Because the "echo" is a duplicate of Guinan as she existed in the "standard" timeline, any alteration of the timeline would conflict with what her "echo" tells her, thus informing her that the timeline is wrong.

The "echo" may also be able to exit the Nexus in the event that Guinan herself is altered or killed, which is the worst Q could really do to her. If he, say, turned her into a fruit fly, her "echo" wouldn't conflict with anything by returning to normal spacetime. Basically, Guinan can be a shit with Q, because there really isn't anything meaningful even he can do about it.

[seanrobertson]

What ever happened to the theme from the first post in this thread; i.e., that Chewie and Han could "kill" Q?

To be blunt, I thought Wayne was just joking. I'm surprised to see this turned into such a furnace over a light-hearted idea. I've been away for awhile, but I didn't think I'd gone that soft...

Rather than talk about how dependent the Q are on technology (they might be totally dependent...doesn't really matter), should we not focus on the fact that it's a bit of a leap to conclude Q itself could be destroyed by blasters on the basis that Ben Sisko was able to sock a mere form Q takes to interact with/bug Starfleet officers?

Given that the Q can manifest humanoid forms that can walk around, "breathe" and talk in a vacuum on the hull of a GCS or can exist for hundreds of years in a comet, I vote Q will survive a surprise blaster bolt or arm-ripping.

P.S.--Someone alluded to the fact that Q was "afraid of humans." I don't remember that line, though I do recall the general implication of some anxiety over humanity's progress: "They're moving faster than expected, further than they should." But it's a false dichotomy to suggest that they are therefore ultimately afraid of humanity's technology as such...as I recall, Trek has this idea that sufficiently advanced humanoids turn into pure energy. Stupid as it is, that's the case; the E-D crew even remarked that they were "seeing the next step in their own evolution" or the like.

[Darth Wong]

What ever happened to the theme from the first post in this thread; i.e., that Chewie and Han could "kill" Q?

To be blunt, I thought Wayne was just joking. I'm surprised to see this turned into such a furnace over a light-hearted idea. I've been away for awhile, but I didn't think I'd gone that soft...

Rather than talk about how dependent the Q are on technology (they might be totally dependent...doesn't really matter), should we not focus on the fact that it's a bit of a leap to conclude Q itself could be destroyed by blasters on the basis that Ben Sisko was able to sock a mere form Q takes to interact with/bug Starfleet officers?

It was light-hearted, but it kind of segued into a thread about just how powerful Q is.

Given that the Q can manifest humanoid forms that can walk around, "breathe" and talk in a vacuum on the hull of a GCS or can exist for hundreds of years in a comet, I vote Q will survive a surprise blaster bolt or arm-ripping.

The fact that he's really imprisoned in that comet means that it's more than just a projection for the sake of interaction.

P.S.--Someone alluded to the fact that Q was "afraid of humans." I don't remember that line, though I do recall the general implication of some anxiety over humanity's progress: "They're moving faster than expected, further than they should." But it's a false dichotomy to suggest that they are therefore ultimately afraid of humanity's technology as such...as I recall, Trek has this idea that sufficiently advanced humanoids turn into pure energy. Stupid as it is, that's the case; the E-D crew even remarked that they were "seeing the next step in their own evolution" or the like.

Actually, that which they refer to as "pure energy" is obviously not, since pure energy always moves at c. They're just being ignorant. However, it's true that Trek stupidly portrays evolution as a series of giant and inexplicable mutations rather than gradual alteration through selection from variability.

[seanrobertson]

Really? Prove it. Again, if I had a holodeck and a transporter, I could be Q too, and you'd never know it.

I would.

I don't think the Borg encounter at J-25 occured in a version of a holodeck, so Q can accelerate a starship to thousands of times its "true" maximum velocity. Standing on the E-D's hull, talking normally and walking around without gravity boots would require more than transporter and holodeck fakery. Moving through time, even to the Big Bang, entails quite a bit of technical sophistication too (it wasn't a trick, since it was an effort to escape another Q...a "hiding place" as Q called it). Same story in miniaturizing VGR to the size of a Christmas ornament, or in "inadvertently" causing supernovae.

Q are a little more than just fakers. They of course make themselves appear to be more than they are, but their essence won't be destroyed by a guy with a handgun.

According to him. For a billion year old being, he's suddenly gotten
progessively older and fatter over the past 16 years.

He has appeared as such, yes, but you should divorce the idea that Q is limited to the form he takes on the Enterprise, DS9, or VGR. That can't be the case; otherwise, he wouldn't last a second in the center of a comet, couldn't walk around in a vacuum, etc.

Additionally, "Quinn" actually appeared the same age on VGR than he did in his Civil War days, when he rescued ???? Riker. I think this thread has already established that individual Q aren't going to have a leg up on another; therefore, Q's degenerating appearance (and don't forget, heavier and heavier make-up!) must be a choice.

Yes we do. He held his nose after Sisko hit it. Just like a human would do. I don't see Superman doing that when he gets hit by bullets. So prove your assertion, using any canon proof from that episode, that "We don't know if he felt any pain from Sisko's punch"

If he chose to geniunely spar with Sisko--say, he wanted to know what it was truly like to get knocked out, or whatever--it doesn't really matter. He probably elected to experience the situation that way. When he doesn't want to be hurt, he's not: photorps didn't hurt him when he was a ball of energy chasing the E-D around.

Again, all the things I could do with a transporter and a holodeck. Tell me, did Q bring Earth to the Delta Quadrant and hang it outside Janeway's window in "Death Wish", or was it an illusion?

That would work, yes, but a holodeck sim of travelling through time in the same episode (to a point over 13 billion years beforehand, no less, something no time travel in Trek has ever approached) would do what good? His objective was to hide from another Q; therefore, he was travelling through time, and dragging VGR along with him. Obviously, holodecks and transporters can't pull that off.

No bullshit about it. "Q-less" shows this exactly. But you can't accept that.

Wayne, there's no way the actual "thing" that constitutes a Q could be zapped by a handgun. Photorps didn't have any effect on him. That Q set up some amusing scenario where he didn't excessively cheat with Sisko (read: allowed himself to be hit, testing Sisko's limits) would require that he do the same with Chewie and Han for them do whack him. Even then, chances are good he'll just pop up in a minute and gloat, "Nice try" or the like.

[seanrobertson]

The fact that he's really imprisoned in that comet means that it's more than just a projection for the sake of interaction.

That's a good point. We don't know what he looked like when he was...err, "in the comet," of course...he appeared as a circa 2371-Starfleet officer IIRC, an organization that didn't even exist when he was exiled. So it is more than just a projection, yet the innately physical part of him/it is pretty tough.

That's fucked up.

I wouldn't let anyone get away with saying the Q are all-powerful or the like; by their own admission, they're not, plus we see that such is the case over and over again. I do think they're more than just tricksters, as Wayne suggested (no disrespect, big Wayne). They can travel in time, can play with gravity, can move through space faster than warp drive, and can make things really big or small, but I think you've all made a pretty good case that at least in part, the Q rely on something more tangible than "magic" to accomplish these things.

[Darth Wong]

That's a good point. We don't know what he looked like when he was...err, "in the comet," of course...he appeared as a circa 2371-Starfleet officer IIRC, an organization that didn't even exist when he was exiled. So it is more than just a projection, yet the innately physical part of him/it is pretty tough.

The innately physical part of a Q is apparently immortal, but how much punishment it can take if it's not actively using its powers to blunt or redirect the attack is an unknown.

I wouldn't let anyone get away with saying the Q are all-powerful or the like; by their own admission, they're not, plus we see that such is the case over and over again. I do think they're more than just tricksters, as Wayne suggested (no disrespect, big Wayne). They can travel in time, can play with gravity, can move through space faster than warp drive, and can make things really big or small, but I think you've all made a pretty good case that at least in part, the Q rely on something more tangible than "magic" to accomplish these things.

How do we know they can travel through time, since Picard's two trips were almost undoubtedly illusions? Why haven't they undone any of their own mistakes? We know they're terribly embarrassed over things that some of their order have done in the past; why not undo them?

[TheDarkling]

How do we know they can travel through time, since Picard's two trips were almost undoubtedly illusions? Why haven't they undone any of their own mistakes? We know they're terribly embarrassed over things that some of their order have done in the past; why not undo them?

I be;ieve he is talking about the time traveling during Death Wish, in which they visit the big bang and pick up a few people from the past (Newton and some hippy).

[Darth Wong]

How do we know they can travel through time, since Picard's two trips were almost undoubtedly illusions? Why haven't they undone any of their own mistakes? We know they're terribly embarrassed over things that some of their order have done in the past; why not undo them?

I be;ieve he is talking about the time traveling during Death Wish, in which they visit the big bang and pick up a few people from the past (Newton and some hippy).

Ah, they were sitting outside the Big Bang? That is obviously an illusion, since the Big Bang produced spacetime itself. There was no place you could look at the Big Bang.

[TheDarkling]

Ah, they were sitting outside the Big Bang? That is obviously an illusion, since the Big Bang produced spacetime itself. There was no place you could look at the Big Bang.

Except as Sean has pointed out they were playing a game of hide and seek, Quinn creating an illusion of being at the big bang but not actually moving there would lose Q which it actually did (I would guess that it was a short time after the big bang and Quinn had simply slowed time down although I think that would be adding an extra power to Q (however if Wesley of the Traveler can do it...).

Also Newton and the hippy must have been real or Quinn would have raised an objection during his trial because Q was inventing witnesses.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

That's a good point. We don't know what he looked like when he was...err, "in the comet," of course...he appeared as a circa 2371-Starfleet officer IIRC, an organization that didn't even exist when he was exiled. So it is more than just a projection, yet the innately physical part of him/it is pretty tough.

The innately physical part of a Q is apparently immortal, but how much punishment it can take if it's not actively using its powers to blunt or redirect the attack is an unknown.

I wouldn't let anyone get away with saying the Q are all-powerful or the like; by their own admission, they're not, plus we see that such is the case over and over again. I do think they're more than just tricksters, as Wayne suggested (no disrespect, big Wayne). They can travel in time, can play with gravity, can move through space faster than warp drive, and can make things really big or small, but I think you've all made a pretty good case that at least in part, the Q rely on something more tangible than "magic" to accomplish these things.

How do we know they can travel through time, since Picard's two trips were almost undoubtedly illusions? Why haven't they undone any of their own mistakes? We know they're terribly embarrassed over things that some of their order have done in the past; why not undo them?

With the idea that Quinn was somehow trapped in the comet because of an inerent, default-state physical interaction is not supported by evidence; there is, however, evidence to support the claim that Quinn was trapped in physical manifestation and stripped of his powers first, and trapped in the comet subsequent to that event. The collective will of the Continuum can strip a Q of his abilities and lock him into mortal form (as we know from Deja Q). The insistence that a Q at his full power could be defeated by a normal human being (as opposed to a human of higher-level parentage like Sisko) is not based on solid footing.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

To address the two points Darth Wong made more specifically (for I fear I failed to do so): There is no solid evidence that the Q have an innately physical part. It is possible to suggest, however, that the Q display an "avatar" of their true selves. Their avatars can be injured, confined or killed -- but, as far as the evidence shows -- only by other Q, or lifeforms on a higher level of development than purely physically manifested forms. In short, Sisko plays into this because his immediate ancestry contained a corporeally manifested higher-level lifeform; thus (as weirdly Judeo-Christain as this sounds) he was the son of a god, or something like it.

Second, although it may be a fallacy, there is no evidence to support the claim that the Q are or do anything other than what they say. They say they are omnipotent, and show at least some very good indications to support the claim; so be it. They are omnipotent. Their limited capabilities while utilizing humanoid avatars are a limitation of the avatars, not of the Q themselves.

This is a more workable explanation than the idea that a species with no previous history of interaction with any other Alpha Quadrant species prior to the year 2364 suddenly comes on the scene with technology millennia ahead of everyone else's and almost limitless knowledge of Earth history and the personal lives of everyone they encounter.

There is, however, an explanation that occurs to me just this second which makes even more sense, although it does jive with the first theory better than the second -- the Q are human, after all; they are a far-distant stage of human evolution which is primarily noncorporeal in nature. This explains their affinity for humans, and explains why they are concerned that humans are moving too fast. They are attempting to provoke their own early ancestors into a line of development better than that of the originals, the Q, who themselves "moved too fast, too far."

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Scary thought: if my theory makes sense, it could lmean that Weasley Crasher was the first of the Q. Although that would also explain why the Q are so fucking annoying...

[Eframepilot]

The innately physical part of a Q is apparently immortal, but how much punishment it can take if it's not actively using its powers to blunt or redirect the attack is an unknown.

Exactly. It's unknown. But given the powers Q has displayed and the elaborateness of the scenarios Q can construct, we can assume that ordinary humanoids can't dish out enough punishment, especially with their bare hands.

How do we know they can travel through time, since Picard's two trips were almost undoubtedly illusions? Why haven't they undone any of their own mistakes? We know they're terribly embarrassed over things that some of their order have done in the past; why not undo them?

Q plucked Sir Isaac Newton and Maury Ginsburg out of the past. He can definitely travel through time. He may be incapable of altering it because of (1) time is fixed like "Time's Arrow" by the Q's method of travel, (2) alternate timelines are generated, which doesn't help, (3) some moral guideline (unlikely) or (4) a Q changing his own past could make a knot in the Continuum and lead to horrible disasters (baseless speculation). But even the Feds can time-travel; Q should definitely be able to, never mind why he doesn't change his own past.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Ehhh... has anybody been noticing the points I've made here? I've pointed out why Q isn't necessarily vulnerable to human attack I think, like, three different ways, and nobody even noticed.