Baseless rumors Egypt about to legalize pedo- & necrophilia

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Baseless rumors Egypt about to legalize pedo- & necrophilia

Post by fgalkin »

Egypt’s National Council for Women (NCW) has appealed to the Islamist-dominated parliament not to approve two controversial laws on the minimum age of marriage and allowing a husband to have sex with his dead wife within six hours of her death according to a report in an Egyptian newspaper.

The appeal came in a message sent by Dr. Mervat al-Talawi, head of the NCW, to the Egyptian People’s Assembly Speaker, Dr. Saad al-Katatni, addressing the woes of Egyptian women, especially after the popular uprising that toppled president Hosni Mubarak in February 2011.

She was referring to two laws: one that would legalize the marriage of girls starting from the age of 14 and the other that permits a husband to have sex with his dead wife within the six hours following her death.




According to Egyptian columnist Amro Abdul Samea in al-Ahram, Talawi’s message included an appeal to parliament to avoid the controversial legislations that rid women of their rights of getting education and employment, under alleged religious interpretations.

“Talawi tried to underline in her message that marginalizing and undermining the status of women in future development plans would undoubtedly negatively affect the country’s human development, simply because women represent half the population,” Abdul Samea said in his article.

The controversy about a husband having sex with his dead wife came about after a Moroccan cleric spoke about the issue in May 2011.

Zamzami Abdul Bari said that marriage remains valid even after death adding that a woman also too had the same right to engage in sex with her dead husband.

Two years ago, Zamzami incited further controversy in Morocco when he said it was permissible for pregnant women to drink alcohol.

But it seems his view on partners having sex with their deceased partners has found its way to Egypt one year on.

Egyptian prominent journalist and TV anchor Jaber al-Qarmouty on Tuesday referred to Abdul Samea’s article in his daily show on Egyptian ON TV and criticized the whole notion of “permitting a husband to have sex with his wife after her death under a so-called ‘Farewell Intercourse’ draft law.”

“This is very serious. Could the panel that will draft the Egyptian constitution possibly discuss such issues? Did Abdul Samea see by his own eyes the text of the message sent by Talawi to Katatni? This is unbelievable. It is a catastrophe to give the husband such a right! Has the Islamic trend reached that far? Is there really a draft law in this regard? Are there people thinking in this manner?”

Many members of the newly-elected, and majority Islamist parliament, have been accused of launching attacks against women’s rights in the country.

They wish to cancel many, if not most, of the laws that promote women’s rights, most notably a law that allows a wife to obtain a divorce without obstructions from her partner. The implementation of the Islamic right to divorce law, also known as the Khula, ended years of hardship and legal battles women would have to endure when trying to obtain a divorce.

Egyptian law grants men the right to terminate a marriage, but grants women the opportunity to end an unhappy or abusive marriages without the obstruction of their partner. Prior to the implementation of the Khula over a decade ago, it could take 10 to 15 years for a woman to be granted a divorce by the courts.

Islamist members of Egyptian parliament, however, accuse these laws of “aiming to destroy families” and have said it was passed to please the former first lady of the fallen regime, Suzanne Mubarak, who devoted much of her attention to the issues of granting the women all her rights.

The parliamentary attacks on women’s rights has drawn great criticism from women’s organizations, who dismissed the calls and accused the MPs of wishing to destroy the little gains Egyptian women attained after long years of organized struggle.
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Remember when I got flamed for saying that the Mubarak regime was the best government they could hope for because a country with a female circumcision rate of over 90% would simply vote itself back into the dark ages?

Have a very nice day.
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Last edited by D.Turtle on 2012-04-27 06:42pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed topic title to something more correct. D.Turtle
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Re: Egypt about to legalize pedophilia, necrophilia

Post by D.Turtle »

How the hell do you get from
Article wrote:According to Egyptian columnist Amro Abdul Samea in al-Ahram, Talawi’s message included an appeal to parliament to avoid the controversial legislations that rid women of their rights of getting education and employment, under alleged religious interpretations.

...

Egyptian prominent journalist and TV anchor Jaber al-Qarmouty on Tuesday referred to Abdul Samea’s article in his daily show on Egyptian ON TV and criticized the whole notion of “permitting a husband to have sex with his wife after her death under a so-called ‘Farewell Intercourse’ draft law.”

“This is very serious. Could the panel that will draft the Egyptian constitution possibly discuss such issues? Did Abdul Samea see by his own eyes the text of the message sent by Talawi to Katatni? This is unbelievable. It is a catastrophe to give the husband such a right! Has the Islamic trend reached that far? Is there really a draft law in this regard? Are there people thinking in this manner?”
to
Topic title wrote:Egypt about to legalize pedophilia, necrophilia
?

There is a rumor that supposedly some kind of laws that were discussed and widely condemned last year might make it to the National assembly. This rumor has already lead to a lot of outrage over the very idea. It is not anything close to being passed or legalize.

This story is simply complete nonsense. The Daily Mail and Andrew Sullivan, who both spread this story have pulled back. If you search on Google News, you can find lots of other sources pointing out that this is unsourced garbage.

So yes, you are absolutely worth flaming for spouting such blatant idiocy.
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Re: Egypt about to legalize pedophilia, necrophilia

Post by Flagg »

1) They never state what the minimum age for marriage is.
2) You got flamed for insisting that Egyptians don't deserve democracy because they do abhorrent things. Things they did under their dictator no less. You're an idiot.
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Re: Egypt about to legalize pedophilia, necrophilia

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In my country, te age of consent is 14. It's not pedophilia. Pedophilia => typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.
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Re: Egypt about to legalize pedophilia, necrophilia

Post by Flagg »

Spekio wrote:In my country, te age of consent is 14. It's not pedophilia. Pedophilia => typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.
There are states in the US where 14 is the legal age of marriage with parental consent.
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Re: Egypt about to legalize pedophilia, necrophilia

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Flagg wrote:
Spekio wrote:In my country, te age of consent is 14. It's not pedophilia. Pedophilia => typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.
There are states in the US where 14 is the legal age of marriage with parental consent.
Still 12 under the UCMJ with the note that local law supersedes the UCMJ except at Sea, and that's age of consent not age of marriage. Sometimes laws don't get updated.
Also there's a heap of difference between people talking and laws being put into the founding documents.

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Re: Baseless rumors Egypt about to legalize pedo- & necrophi

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Still 12 under the UCMJ with the note that local law supersedes the UCMJ except at Sea, and that's age of consent not age of marriage. Sometimes laws don't get updated.
...

:shock:

...

:wtf:

When the fuck was that last updated? Back in the age of sail when we were trying to emulate the Royal Navy's unofficial "rum, sodomy, and the lash" policy? I mean, yeah sure... young girls are menstruating at 10 these days, but back when that age would have been in any way excusable it was 50/50 at 12. AoC of 12 is something I expect (and am apparently correct to do so) of the vatican, not the US military.
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Re: Baseless rumors Egypt about to legalize pedo- & necrophi

Post by Mr Bean »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
When the fuck was that last updated? Back in the age of sail when we were trying to emulate the Royal Navy's unofficial "rum, sodomy, and the lash" policy? I mean, yeah sure... young girls are menstruating at 10 these days, but back when that age would have been in any way excusable it was 50/50 at 12. AoC of 12 is something I expect (and am apparently correct to do so) of the vatican, not the US military.
The UCMJ is one of the hardest set of laws to change not because of any legal issue with changing but because of all the institution built up around it. The UCMJ is designed to deal with military issues and issue military punishments and contains legal codes saying in essence "You may make it illegible if you don't like it Captain", the conduct unbecoming clause is specifically to deal with everything that might come up and thus there is a very real possibility that a Captain could preform a marriage at sea between a 12 year old and a 40 year old then charged with conduct unbecoming on returning to port.

Convincing both the defense department, the Congress and the President to change something in the UCMJ is hard and the 12 year old consent rules is just one of those things they have never gotten around with preciously because the UCMJ contains section saying that state laws and federal laws still apply to soldiers so while a Captain could marry a 12 year old to someone the Federal law precludes him which is what he would be operating with at sea. So again you could marry them per UCMJ law, but without federal law to recognize the marriage it would obviously still be illegal.

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Re: Egypt about to legalize pedophilia, necrophilia

Post by hunter5 »

Mr Bean wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Spekio wrote:In my country, te age of consent is 14. It's not pedophilia. Pedophilia => typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children.
There are states in the US where 14 is the legal age of marriage with parental consent.
Still 12 under the UCMJ with the note that local law supersedes the UCMJ except at Sea, and that's age of consent not age of marriage. Sometimes laws don't get updated.
Also there's a heap of difference between people talking and laws being put into the founding documents.
Um no you can be convicted of carnal knowledge if the victim is 16 or under http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj2.htm scroll down to 920 article 120 Rape and Carnal knowledge. I have no idea where you got 12 from but that is way off. Article 120 replaced the old article 134 back in October of 2007.
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Re: Baseless rumors Egypt about to legalize pedo- & necrophi

Post by Flagg »

Just to rub salt in the wound:

MSNBC + NYT
Confounding expectations: Support from Islamists for liberal upends race in Egypt
Country's most conservative groups back dissident former leader of the Muslim Brotherhood known for his inclusive view of Islamic law

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK and MAYY EL SHEIKH
updated 2 hours 29 minutes ago

ABU HOMOS, Egypt — Egypt’s most conservative Islamists endorsed a liberal Islamist for president late Saturday night, upending the political landscape and confounding expectations about the internal dynamics of the Islamist movement.

The main missionary and political groups of the ultraconservatives, known as Salafis, threw their support behind Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh, a dissident former leader of the Muslim Brotherhood known for his tolerant and inclusive view of Islamic law.

The endorsement goes a long way toward making Mr. Aboul Fotouh the front-runner in a campaign that could shape the ultimate outcome of the revolt that ousted the former strongman, Hosni Mubarak.

Mr. Aboul Fotouh’s liberal understanding of Islamic law on matters of individual freedom and economic equality had already made him the preferred candidate of many Egyptian liberals.

His endorsement on Saturday by the Salafis now makes him the candidate of Egypt’s most determined conservatives, too. Known for their strict focus on Islamic law, the Salafis often talk of reviving medieval Islamic corporal punishments, restricting women’s dress and the sale of alcohol, and cracking down on heretical culture.

The decision was announced by officials of the preaching group the Salafi Call and on the Web site of its allied party, Al Nour. Neither group gave a definitive reason for their pick.
Egyptians looking for 'good side' of America

But Salafi leaders described their decision in part as a reaction against the presidential candidate of the Muslim Brotherhood, the powerful and established Islamist group that now dominates Parliament. Though more moderate than the Salafis, the Brotherhood also favors the fashioning of an explicitly Islamic democracy in Egypt, and on social and cultural issues the group is closer to the Salafis than Mr. Aboul Fotouh is.

But in television interviews on Saturday night, some Salafis said they believed the Brotherhood’s current candidate, Mohamed Morsi, was weaker than either Mr. Aboul Fotouh or the Brotherhood’s original nominee, Khairat el-Shater. Others said the group was wary of giving a monopoly on political power to the Brotherhood, which recently abandoned its pledge not to seek control of the presidency as well as the Parliament.

Abdel Moneim El Shahat, a spokesman for the Salafi group, acknowledged a big difference with Mr. Aboul Fotouh over his understanding of a verse of the Koran declaring, “There is no compulsion in religion,” which he interprets to mean that the state should not compel people to follow religious rules. But such compulsion “in reality is not possible now” in any case, Mr. Shahat said.

Leading Salafis hinted in recent days that they did not expect quick fulfillment of their goals for a state governed by Islamic law. Instead , they wanted a president who could deal with Egypt’s pressing needs while allowing them freedom to preach and advocate.

“We don’t want the sheik of Islam,” Sheikh Hassan Omar, a Salafi leader and lawmaker in the upper house of Parliament from the Delta province of Behaira, said this week as Mr. Aboul Fotouh was campaigning nearby.

But the Salafi endorsement also appeared to provide an unexpected validation for Mr. Aboul Fotouh’s argument that mixing preaching and politics would be “disastrous” for both Islam and Egypt, as he put it in an interview last week with El Rahma, a major Salafi satellite channel.
For Egyptians ‘It's a new beginning’

Mr. Aboul Fotouh, a physician who led the Brotherhood-dominated medical association, was a founder of a 1970s student movement that revitalized Islamist politics here. He was expelled from the Brotherhood last year for defying the decision of its leaders to bar members from running for president or engaging in politics outside its own political party.

Although the Salafis are more conservative on many cultural issues, they also typically disapprove of the Muslim Brotherhood’s emphasis on internal obedience and orthodoxy.

In recent interviews with Salafi satellite networks, Mr. Aboul Fotouh has explained that his candidacy and his expulsion from the Brotherhood are part of a larger dispute over whether in a democratic Egypt the Brotherhood should control its own political party, or instead go back to its roots in preaching and charity while its members apply their own values to political life.

In some interviews, he has alluded to threats to the credibility of religious leaders in the unseemly day-to-day of political life, ranging from the appearance of compromises in the interest of power to more vivid embarrassments like the recent case of a Salafi lawmaker who was caught fabricating a beating by unknown assailants to cover up a nose job.

“The overlap between what’s partisan politics and what’s missionary is disastrous for the religious mission and a disaster for the party as well,” Mr. Aboul Fotouh said of the Brotherhood in the El Rahma interview. “They will see in the future the result of this threat, which is a threat to the homeland and to religion.”

And if his conclusions often seem strikingly liberal, Mr. Aboul Fotouh also speaks fluently in the language of Salafis. He has talked at greater length and in greater detail about what Islamic law demands than the other Islamist candidates, including those of the Muslim Brotherhood, who fear alarming moderates. Among other things, he often argues that the first priorities in advancing Islamic law should be individual freedom and social justice.

Addressing a rally of thousands in this Salafi stronghold in the Nile Delta this week, he argued that Egyptian Muslims were not waiting for a president to teach them to follow their faith. They wanted a president to develop their agriculture and industry, as he said Islamic law also required.

“Whoever sleeps full while his neighbor is hungry is not a believer,” he declared, quoting the Prophet Muhammad.

Those appeals may have touched on a difference in social class between the Brotherhood and the Salafis. The Brotherhood skews to the middle and business classes; its leaders often hold advanced degrees in law, medicine or science. Its platform emphasizes business-friendly free-market economics, and Brotherhood leaders sometimes sound condescending toward the less sophisticated or less politically experienced Salafis.

Salafi politicians, on the other hand, are often local preachers close to their village constituents. And rather than selling puritanism, they practice a brand of populism that plays more on the resentments of poor Egyptians toward the cosmopolitan elite, potentially including leaders of the Brotherhood.

The Salafis also lead a broad grass-roots network of preaching and social service groups, which makes their support a powerful asset. They won about a quarter of the seats in recent parliamentary elections, and since their own standard-bearer was disqualified on a technicality about two weeks ago, they have emerged as a coveted swing vote.

Mr. Aboul Fotouh, who spent more than six years in jail for his Brotherhood leadership, brought to the competition for the Salafi vote a special authenticity. Many Salafi leaders came out of the Islamist student movement that Mr. Aboul Fotouh led in the 1970s, before he and some others from the student group joined and revitalized the Brotherhood.

In another appearance on the channel El Rahma, he laughed out loud at a request to introduce himself to Salafi viewers.

“Some of these leaders I hold dear since the days of the 1970s,” he said. “One of them was joking with me and said to me, ‘We will never forget, sir, that you were our emir,’ which is the term we used to use in the ’70s. So it’s impossible to say the Salafi movement doesn’t know Dr. Abdel Moneim!”

This article, "Support From Islamists for Liberal Upends Race in Egypt," first appeared in The New York Times.

Copyright © 2012 The New York Times
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Re: Baseless rumors Egypt about to legalize pedo- & necrophi

Post by Zinegata »

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that while there may be some crazy "Islamist" elements that will get elected, we're not about to see Egypt turn into the Taliban. At worse it'll be like the American political landscape with its "Evangelicals".

It's a good time to be optimistic for the Middle East.
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Re: Baseless rumors Egypt about to legalize pedo- & necrophi

Post by dragon »

Mr Bean wrote:The UCMJ is one of the hardest set of laws to change not because of any legal issue with changing but because of all the institution built up around it. The UCMJ is designed to deal with military issues and issue military punishments and contains legal codes saying in essence "You may make it illegible if you don't like it Captain", the conduct unbecoming clause is specifically to deal with everything that might come up and thus there is a very real possibility that a Captain could preform a marriage at sea between a 12 year old and a 40 year old then charged with conduct unbecoming on returning to port.
Actually the UCMJ sets the age of consent at 16 by article 120 section b. Which is what the AoC is in a large number of states.
ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife,
by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as
a court-martial may direct.
(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, under circumstances not amounting to rape, commits an act of
sexual intercourse with a female not his wife who has not attained the age of sixteen years, is guilty of
carnal knowledge and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
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