Emperor: Battle for Dune, Vs........

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

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The Carrier doesn't have guns, what are you talking about?
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It doesn't NEED guns. It has 50+ interceptors whooping your ass for it. How much damage can you do to interceptors in the time it takes to blow them up?

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You are aware that Ordos have shields too right?
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Err... so? Protoss have shields, Ordos have shields, Ordos has crappy tech, Protoss are capable of BDZ ops.

[Kolinar Romanov]

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The Carrier doesn't have guns, what are you talking about?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't NEED guns. It has 50+ interceptors whooping your ass for it. How much damage can you do to interceptors in the time it takes to blow them up?

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You are aware that Ordos have shields too right?
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Err... so? Protoss have shields, Ordos have shields, Ordos has crappy tech, Protoss are capable of BDZ ops.

He has a point though. 50+ interceptors are hard to beat, unless you have a shitload of kamikaze flying units. hey, the Zerg managed to pull that off.

[Antediluvian]

(It doesn't NEED guns. It has 50+ interceptors whooping your ass for it. How much damage can you do to interceptors in the time it takes to blow them up?)

I was responding to Nomad's claim that Carrier's possessed built-in weapons, which they don't. I know they have interceptors.



(Err... so? Protoss have shields, Ordos have shields, Ordos has crappy tech, Protoss are capable of BDZ ops.)

And you think they'll BDZ their way through every battle?


Yes, Ordos tech isn't that great, but they can still put up a good fight against the Protoss ground forces.

[Antediluvian]

I'd put in cutscene units as well to even up, since they'd show the true power of the Ordos House.

What units, if I may ask?

What units ?

Here are some examples:

In the opening, there were a few starfighter, perhaps orod, attacking a guild frigate.

Then, there are the CommandSHips used by House Atreides (see the mission brifeing for the last mission).

ALso, if you want, you can speculate some big starcraft for House Ordos, though you should make them as Ordosian as possible.

I think those command ships were actually smuggler's vessels.

[Kolinar Romanov]

What units, if I may ask?

What units ?

Here are some examples:

In the opening, there were a few starfighter, perhaps orod, attacking a guild frigate.

Then, there are the CommandSHips used by House Atreides (see the mission brifeing for the last mission).

ALso, if you want, you can speculate some big starcraft for House Ordos, though you should make them as Ordosian as possible.

I think those command ships were actually smuggler's vessels.

The one's carrying the troops, yes, but the one that housed you(the commander), and Kolinar Koltrass (me), that was a 100% Atreides ship, at least in my opinion.

[The Nomad]

The Protoss Carriers are the only "real" protoss Starships I recall to have ever seen in the cutscenes ( e.g. in the return to Aiur, when they transport fleets back to their home planet ). It is not totally illogical to assume that they are the starships able to perform the BDZ ops, and yet don't use their guns in the game, on the battlefield, aka the Acclamators in AOTC. Unless the manual mentions that they don't have built-in guns ( don't remember ). But, of course, with all their interceptors, who needs guns on the battlefield ?

And isn't Ordos gas designed to attack human brain ? How do you know it would affect alien physiology ? ( only played to the first RTS, years ago )

In one cutscene, they supposedly manage to sneak an Arbiter to transfer troops. See how effective it was. The beam doesn't have a "Vortex" look, I would even say they tranfered their troops from shuttles or from orbiting ships.

So no I don't think the Ordos are on par with the Protoss.

Mike Wong would love the Zerg : they are biological beings, and their Scourges can produce multi-megaton explosions ( plasma bombs ) !!

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Anyway, *I* feel that the first one was weakly though out in my opinion, esp. since I had a bias for the Landsraad houses. Then again, you seem to have a small bias for the Empire, so, I didn't take all of your points into account.

True. You have bias for Landsraad houses, and I have bias for the Empire. We both have bias. The difference between us is the usage of common sense, IMHO. At least I've never claim that more savage army will beat the less savage one, or making unsupported claims like "Low level stormtroopers use the simple blaster, whose firepower hardly compares to the savage Harkonnen guns".

I suppose you do have a point here. My goof. I am susceptible to mistakes too, since I am still Human (though i am trying to advance to the orders of a Jedi). Then again, we all make mistakes, and I do know you are a lot more acquainted with STar Wars here, so, I think we should drop it. Yes, and you are right: the harkonnen will lose in a prolonged war against the Harkonnen.

Now, if you may, please review my other review of protoss vs. ordos. I think I learnt my lesson there.

Finally, someone man enough (no offense, ladies! ) to admit his mistakes. If all people behave like you, maybe Mike Wong won't ever need to label anyone Village Idiots. Glad you've learnt your mistakes, and sorry if I've been too hard; it was merely my way to treat unsupported claims. Nothing personal, pal.

Now, about Protoss vs Ordos, well, I'm not very well acquainted in Dune or StarCraft, either. My only Dune sources are Dune 2000 computer game, God Emperor of Dune novel, and Dune the movie (you know, the one with Sting and Sean Young). I'm writing a Starwars/Dune crossover fanfic, which is inspired by Dune 2000, but I need more sources like what happpened between Dune and Dune Messiah, technological capability of the Houses, etc. Do you know where to find a comprehensive Dune reference? Thanks.

[Kolinar Romanov]

The Protoss Carriers are the only "real" protoss Starships I recall to have ever seen in the cutscenes ( e.g. in the return to Aiur, when they transport fleets back to their home planet ). It is not totally illogical to assume that they are the starships able to perform the BDZ ops, and yet don't use their guns in the game, on the battlefield, aka the Acclamators in AOTC. Unless the manual mentions that they don't have built-in guns ( don't remember ). But, of course, with all their interceptors, who needs guns on the battlefield ?

And isn't Ordos gas designed to attack human brain ? How do you know it would affect alien physiology ? ( only played to the first RTS, years ago )

In one cutscene, they supposedly manage to sneak an Arbiter to transfer troops. See how effective it was. The beam doesn't have a "Vortex" look, I would even say they tranfered their troops from shuttles or from orbiting ships.

So no I don't think the Ordos are on par with the Protoss.

Mike Wong would love the Zerg : they are biological beings, and their Scourges can produce multi-megaton explosions ( plasma bombs ) !!

That's because you only played Dune 2, whereas I'm reffering to Emperor. Trust me, when you play Emperor, you'll see that the Ordos have advanced far more than in the original game.

True. You have bias for Landsraad houses, and I have bias for the Empire. We both have bias. The difference between us is the usage of common sense, IMHO. At least I've never claim that more savage army will beat the less savage one, or making unsupported claims like "Low level stormtroopers use the simple blaster, whose firepower hardly compares to the savage Harkonnen guns".

I suppose you do have a point here. My goof. I am susceptible to mistakes too, since I am still Human (though i am trying to advance to the orders of a Jedi). Then again, we all make mistakes, and I do know you are a lot more acquainted with STar Wars here, so, I think we should drop it. Yes, and you are right: the harkonnen will lose in a prolonged war against the Harkonnen.

Now, if you may, please review my other review of protoss vs. ordos. I think I learnt my lesson there.

Finally, someone man enough (no offense, ladies! ) to admit his mistakes. If all people behave like you, maybe Mike Wong won't ever need to label anyone Village Idiots. Glad you've learnt your mistakes, and sorry if I've been too hard; it was merely my way to treat unsupported claims. Nothing personal, pal.

Now, about Protoss vs Ordos, well, I'm not very well acquainted in Dune or StarCraft, either. My only Dune sources are Dune 2000 computer game, God Emperor of Dune novel, and Dune the movie (you know, the one with Sting and Sean Young). I'm writing a Starwars/Dune crossover fanfic, which is inspired by Dune 2000, but I need more sources like what happpened between Dune and Dune Messiah, technological capability of the Houses, etc. Do you know where to find a comprehensive Dune reference? Thanks.

Thanks ;D

Now for your request: a bit hard. Westwood's Dune is entirely different from Frank Herbert's original.

*activates Mentat mode*

Weaponry and armour(overall)

Herbert's: From what I heard (and I think this is completely false), the people had developed a sort of shield that prevented fast objects like bullets from hitting people. Also, larger units, like tanks, were somewhat shielded with a sort of shield, that, if hit by a lasgun, would cause a nuclear explosion. A really BIG one. The latter part is true.

Now, the part of the shields preventing bulletsf from reachig the targets is false, BUT, it does explain why swords have been used in the books. Yes, swords, and plenty of 'em. As a matter of fact, armies in DUne fought with SWORDS, and that's the one thing about the book I didn't like (everything else in the book was good)

Westwood's: Guns, guns, and more guns . Lasers ? check. Bullets ? check. Heavy armour ? check. Enough to make most RTSs jealous.

Starships

Both: None known, officialy. However, in the original Dune, as in the book, the Emperor indicated that he had a fleet of ships that could actually blow the planet to kingdom come. ANd, in Chapterhouse: DUne (or ws it Heretics of DUne ?) the planet was actually destroyed by a big weapon. Well, talk about planet destroyers. In Emperor, the opening FMV showed some Atreides starfighters, and, for the last Atreides mission, you would be briefed on the Atreides version of a Command Fleet SHip.

I myself do not now of many comprehensive Herbet fan sites, but, i do know that they exist. You should be able to find info.

Also, if you can, try obtaining Emperor: Battle FOr DUne. If I'm not wrong, it's bargain now, and it's a damn good game, at least until Warcraft 3 is on budget ;D

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Gee, Romanov, not to open old wounds, but I've just read other's replies to your "Harkonnen vs Empire" arguments. See? That's what you've got for making unsupported and stupid claims.

For your own sake, please do not repeat those mistakes. You don't want to be in the same league as those Village Idiots, do you? I haven't read your other arguments yet, but I hope they're much better. Don't misunderstand me, buddy, but this is truly for your own sake.

PS: To be honest, back in 1997, I made same mistakes in a Trekkie web discussion board (that was BEFORE I read Mike Wong's and Wayne Poe's website). I was defending Star Wars, but my arguments were so stupid and unsupported with no evidence whatsoever that they only served to humiliate fellow SW fans. Guess what? I was butt-raped. But it was a hard, yet valuable lesson.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Finally, someone man enough (no offense, ladies! ) to admit his mistakes. If all people behave like you, maybe Mike Wong won't ever need to label anyone Village Idiots. Glad you've learnt your mistakes, and sorry if I've been too hard; it was merely my way to treat unsupported claims. Nothing personal, pal.

Now, about Protoss vs Ordos, well, I'm not very well acquainted in Dune or StarCraft, either. My only Dune sources are Dune 2000 computer game, God Emperor of Dune novel, and Dune the movie (you know, the one with Sting and Sean Young). I'm writing a Starwars/Dune crossover fanfic, which is inspired by Dune 2000, but I need more sources like what happpened between Dune and Dune Messiah, technological capability of the Houses, etc. Do you know where to find a comprehensive Dune reference? Thanks.

Thanks ;D

Now for your request: a bit hard. Westwood's Dune is entirely different from Frank Herbert's original.

*activates Mentat mode*

Weaponry and armour(overall)

Herbert's: From what I heard (and I think this is completely false), the people had developed a sort of shield that prevented fast objects like bullets from hitting people. Also, larger units, like tanks, were somewhat shielded with a sort of shield, that, if hit by a lasgun, would cause a nuclear explosion. A really BIG one. The latter part is true.

Now, the part of the shields preventing bulletsf from reachig the targets is false, BUT, it does explain why swords have been used in the books. Yes, swords, and plenty of 'em. As a matter of fact, armies in DUne fought with SWORDS, and that's the one thing about the book I didn't like (everything else in the book was good)

True, I read about that too in God Emperor of Dune. That's why Lord Leto II disagree with Ghola Duncan's suggestion to wear portable shield generator (after Face Dancer attack).

Now I left my book in other city, but in the end of God Emperor of Dune, Ghola Duncan melted Nayla (the 'Friend') using a Lasgun. Can we calculate its firepower based on the novel quotes?

Anyway, the infantry combat in Dune movie (when Harkonnen beat Atriedes in their own castle) is quite pathetic, IMHO. Infantry charging en masse to the enemy ala SST movie's Mobile Infantry, with no armor nor artillery support. What happened in the book? Was the combat more reasonable or not?

Westwood's: Guns, guns, and more guns . Lasers ? check. Bullets ? check. Heavy armour ? check. Enough to make most RTSs jealous.

I've only played Dune II and Dune 2000, but from those sources I think they may be on par with today's real-world military in term of firepower. Chain guns, tank cannons, and rockets.

I think there are some difference between Dune II's Devastator and Dune 2000's Devastator. In Dune II, they seems to fire normal tank shells (with greater firepower than Dune II's normal combat tanks, of course), but in Dune 2000, they appear to fire energy bolt (I don't know, but it LOOKED like energy bolt. Too bad I don't have any screenshots). Yet the firepower is not different than Dune II.

I think it is possible to calculate the firepower of Dune units based on Dune II and Dune 2000, assuming we know the material used. Anyone?

Starships

Both: None known, officialy. However, in the original Dune, as in the book, the Emperor indicated that he had a fleet of ships that could actually blow the planet to kingdom come. ANd, in Chapterhouse: DUne (or ws it Heretics of DUne ?) the planet was actually destroyed by a big weapon. Well, talk about planet destroyers. In Emperor, the opening FMV showed some Atreides starfighters, and, for the last Atreides mission, you would be briefed on the Atreides version of a Command Fleet SHip.

I myself do not now of many comprehensive Herbet fan sites, but, i do know that they exist. You should be able to find info.

Also, if you can, try obtaining Emperor: Battle FOr DUne. If I'm not wrong, it's bargain now, and it's a damn good game, at least until Warcraft 3 is on budget ;D

Do you know what happened soon after Dune? I never read the novel but watch the movie. What happened after the rain? Was the spice still available between Dune and Messiah of Dune? (In God Emperor of Dune Arrakis no longer generated spice) Are there still remains of Harkonnen forces on the planet?

Anyway, thanks for the information.

[Kolinar Romanov]

Gee, Romanov, not to open old wounds, but I've just read other's replies to your "Harkonnen vs Empire" arguments. See? That's what you've got for making unsupported and stupid claims.

For your own sake, please do not repeat those mistakes. You don't want to be in the same league as those Village Idiots, do you? I haven't read your other arguments yet, but I hope they're much better. Don't misunderstand me, buddy, but this is truly for your own sake.

PS: To be honest, back in 1997, I made same mistakes in a Trekkie web discussion board (that was BEFORE I read Mike Wong's and Wayne Poe's website). I was defending Star Wars, but my arguments were so stupid and unsupported with no evidence whatsoever that they only served to humiliate fellow SW fans. Guess what? I was butt-raped. But it was a hard, yet valuable lesson.

I believe I have learnt my mistake. I admit to being new to these sort of forums, though I have caused on another forum(no, I will not talk
about that.)

Finally, someone man enough (no offense, ladies! ) to admit his mistakes. If all people behave like you, maybe Mike Wong won't ever need to label anyone Village Idiots. Glad you've learnt your mistakes, and sorry if I've been too hard; it was merely my way to treat unsupported claims. Nothing personal, pal.

Now, about Protoss vs Ordos, well, I'm not very well acquainted in Dune or StarCraft, either. My only Dune sources are Dune 2000 computer game, God Emperor of Dune novel, and Dune the movie (you know, the one with Sting and Sean Young). I'm writing a Starwars/Dune crossover fanfic, which is inspired by Dune 2000, but I need more sources like what happpened between Dune and Dune Messiah, technological capability of the Houses, etc. Do you know where to find a comprehensive Dune reference? Thanks.

Thanks ;D

Now for your request: a bit hard. Westwood's Dune is entirely different from Frank Herbert's original.

*activates Mentat mode*

Weaponry and armour(overall)

Herbert's: From what I heard (and I think this is completely false), the people had developed a sort of shield that prevented fast objects like bullets from hitting people. Also, larger units, like tanks, were somewhat shielded with a sort of shield, that, if hit by a lasgun, would cause a nuclear explosion. A really BIG one. The latter part is true.

Now, the part of the shields preventing bulletsf from reachig the targets is false, BUT, it does explain why swords have been used in the books. Yes, swords, and plenty of 'em. As a matter of fact, armies in DUne fought with SWORDS, and that's the one thing about the book I didn't like (everything else in the book was good)

True, I read about that too in God Emperor of Dune. That's why Lord Leto II disagree with Ghola Duncan's suggestion to wear portable shield generator (after Face Dancer attack).

Now I left my book in other city, but in the end of God Emperor of Dune, Ghola Duncan melted Nayla (the 'Friend') using a Lasgun. Can we calculate its firepower based on the novel quotes?

Anyway, the infantry combat in Dune movie (when Harkonnen beat Atriedes in their own castle) is quite pathetic, IMHO. Infantry charging en masse to the enemy ala SST movie's Mobile Infantry, with no armor nor artillery support. What happened in the book? Was the combat more reasonable or not?

Westwood's: Guns, guns, and more guns . Lasers ? check. Bullets ? check. Heavy armour ? check. Enough to make most RTSs jealous.

I've only played Dune II and Dune 2000, but from those sources I think they may be on par with today's real-world military in term of firepower. Chain guns, tank cannons, and rockets.

I think there are some difference between Dune II's Devastator and Dune 2000's Devastator. In Dune II, they seems to fire normal tank shells (with greater firepower than Dune II's normal combat tanks, of course), but in Dune 2000, they appear to fire energy bolt (I don't know, but it LOOKED like energy bolt. Too bad I don't have any screenshots). Yet the firepower is not different than Dune II.

I think it is possible to calculate the firepower of Dune units based on Dune II and Dune 2000, assuming we know the material used. Anyone?

Starships

Both: None known, officialy. However, in the original Dune, as in the book, the Emperor indicated that he had a fleet of ships that could actually blow the planet to kingdom come. ANd, in Chapterhouse: DUne (or ws it Heretics of DUne ?) the planet was actually destroyed by a big weapon. Well, talk about planet destroyers. In Emperor, the opening FMV showed some Atreides starfighters, and, for the last Atreides mission, you would be briefed on the Atreides version of a Command Fleet SHip.

I myself do not now of many comprehensive Herbet fan sites, but, i do know that they exist. You should be able to find info.

Also, if you can, try obtaining Emperor: Battle FOr DUne. If I'm not wrong, it's bargain now, and it's a damn good game, at least until Warcraft 3 is on budget ;D

Do you know what happened soon after Dune? I never read the novel but watch the movie. What happened after the rain? Was the spice still available between Dune and Messiah of Dune? (In God Emperor of Dune Arrakis no longer generated spice) Are there still remains of Harkonnen forces on the planet?

Anyway, thanks for the information.

Right, to answer some of your new 9questions:

*switches on mentat skills*

1. Now, I believe that the lasgun's power cannot be truly be calculated by novel quotes, as that'd be similar to making false, unsupportes statements. I believe Herbet merely added lasgun as a sort of typical piece of technology prevalent in other sci-fi operas. But that's my opinion. Regardless, the lasgun is just a novelty of Herbert's universe, and the true power lied in the swords, which I didn't like.+

2. Yes, it IS possible to c
alcul
ate firepower by a
ssuming the m
ateria
l used. Notefully, the EMperor Dev
asta
tor's
are a lot more kickass. Really.

3. Firstly, i did not w
atch the movie. I wa
nted to, but didn't get the ch
ance. However, I DID read the book, and it's sequel. Here's a gist: Paul vowed that Dune would remain a desert planet, as well as a p
art paradise. That way, the spice would flow forever, though he tried to prevent people from being depended on the dope. However,
after some time, he became corrupt, and he knew that people actually worshipped him fervently, and the powers that made him emperor soon tried to banish him. That was the reason why many fans didn't continue the series after Messiah and CHildren of DUne. However, Herbert's themes of the danger's of Messianic worship, and false meesiahs, were all in Dune messiah. An irony. I'm not sure how the spice stopped, but I know it did. This was because of the very dream the fremen wanted: water. the water was a bane, not only to the worms, but also to the Spice. ANd that was how I think, it stopped.

4.Nope, the Harkonnen were vanquished. COmpletely. And so was House Corrino.

Hope that answers your questions.

[Kolinar Romanov]

Btw, my keyboard was slightly spoilt, and I think you can see what i mean in my previous reply.

[Antediluvian]

(?[quote="The Nomad"]The Protoss Carriers are the only "real" protoss Starships I recall to have ever seen in the cutscenes ( e.g. in the return to Aiur, when they transport fleets back to their home planet ). It is not totally illogical to assume that they are the starships able to perform the BDZ ops, and yet don't use their guns in the game, on the battlefield, aka the Acclamators in AOTC. Unless the manual mentions that they don't have built-in guns ( don't remember ). But, of course, with all their interceptors, who needs guns on the battlefield?)

The manual does say they have no built-in weapons. And the Arbiters were in that scene as well.



(And isn't Ordos gas designed to attack human brain ? How do you know it would affect alien physiology ? ( only played to the first RTS, years ago )


Don't know, but I considered the possibility their gas could be ineffective and may not penetrate Protoss shields.



(So no I don't think the Ordos are on par with the Protoss.)


I think they are technologically, but the Ordos units aren't very powerful. The biggest advantages they would have would be artillery and hover units (the Protoss possess neither) but they have no real air support. Some effective AA, but no real effective aircraft.

With their starships and psionic powers, the Protoss should win unless heavily outnumbered. Which could happen since apparently the Dune houses control the known universe, so Ordos should have a nice chunk.

As for starship combat, we would have to get the Trader's Guild involved to have any real capships for the Ordos.

[Kolinar Romanov]

(?

The Protoss Carriers are the only "real" protoss Starships I recall to have ever seen in the cutscenes ( e.g. in the return to Aiur, when they transport fleets back to their home planet ). It is not totally illogical to assume that they are the starships able to perform the BDZ ops, and yet don't use their guns in the game, on the battlefield, aka the Acclamators in AOTC. Unless the manual mentions that they don't have built-in guns ( don't remember ). But, of course, with all their interceptors, who needs guns on the battlefield?)

The manual does say they have no built-in weapons. And the Arbiters were in that scene as well.



(And isn't Ordos gas designed to attack human brain ? How do you know it would affect alien physiology ? ( only played to the first RTS, years ago )


Don't know, but I considered the possibility their gas could be ineffective and may not penetrate Protoss shields.



(So no I don't think the Ordos are on par with the Protoss.)


I think they are technologically, but the Ordos units aren't very powerful. The biggest advantages they would have would be artillery and hover units (the Protoss possess neither) but they have no real air support. Some effective AA, but no real effective aircraft.

With their starships and psionic powers, the Protoss should win unless heavily outnumbered. Which could happen since apparently the Dune houses control the known universe, so Ordos should have a nice chunk.

As for starship combat, we would have to get the Trader's Guild involved to have any real capships for the Ordos.

Very true. In fact, in Emperor, the Ordos gained ghola technology, and could create armies of cyborgs in seconds, thanks to those damned flesh vats. The Protoss take years to reprdouce, so don't stand a chance.

Trader's guild ? I see why not, hough the Ordos eye in the sky can act like the their version of the zerg scourge.....

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I've never played Emperor: Battle on Dune and neither StarCraft. but from what I've seen in Dune II and Dune 2000, it seems that the ground forces of the houses are on par with modern-day army.

On Dune 2000, we saw that standard weapons mainly used are chainguns (Infantry & Trikes), cannons (Quads, Tanks, & Siege Tanks), and rockets (Troopers, Rocket Tanks). If we assume that materials used in building and vehicles is the same with today's material, then it is safe to say that houses' firepower is about as equal as modern-day army.

I don't know about the Protoss, though. Never played Star Craft.

Now, howabout Protoss vs modern-day army?

But again, firepower is not the single deciding factor in war (unless the margin is sufficiently high). There's other factor like industrial capacity, strategic mobility, etc.

Now, do we have anything to say about industrial capacity of House Ordos? The Protoss? Their strategic mobility? Their logistic capability?

Anyone?

[omegaLancer]

From the varies dune novels, it very certain that the Empire would wipe the floor with the Dune's empire..

First the Dune universe was build around the ground base infantry without mechanize force ( IE armor corps/tanks). These were a poeple still recovering from a galactic War with AI's and the varies power ( including the emperor) shy away from any complex machines..There was only two planet produce Technology items in any great number, one concertated on complex machines ( that came very close to breaking the band) and other that specialized in bio tech. Each Duke world manufactored weapons for their arm forces.

The Lasgun was not a laser pistol, it principle remain unknown but no armor could stand against it ( and if hit a shield (dune ) an feed back condition occur that destroy both shield and lasgun), and dune shield generators was good against any conventional fire arms ( but not Sword, or daggers or slow moving object), but would not shield vs Atomics ( From the Dune Messiah).. The Dune powers did have space fleets ( orbital and sub obrital fighters) arm with varies weapons up to and including atomics, but fall short of being able to battle a stardestroyers or Tie fighters...Their most devasting Ship was a monitor, which destroyed ground forces by droping on them...


With out major artillery, or armor support ( even if they could negate the empires superior air support) the Ducal armies was no match for Imperial storm troopers....

Combine The Storm troopers, superior weaponary ( any weapons from automatic blaster to nerve gas) , personal armor, build in infra red and targeting sensor, combine with storm trooper being an elite unit , no dune infantry could face them in the field.. ( anybe the freeman could battle them, but they too would fall under the heavy weapons ( A anti personel blaster cannon can target and hit target over 2 kilometer away))

The Dune atomics were more than mere atomics, some had the ability to totally convert a quantity of matter to energy, and even a stone burner could destroy a planet if had enought fuels.. But the Dune power hestitated to use Atomics ( cultural and social bans).

I like to see how the varies Trained classes (mentat, swordmasters,etc) would do against the Jedi ( especial a sword master with personal shield), since the training of these classes invovled advance techniques of training the body and mind.. but the average foot soldier was so much cannon fodder..

The fact is only one battle need to be fought and that is for the one containing the spice. He who control the spice control the galaxy , since the SW empire does not need it, it seem that destruction of the spice would result in the victory for SW empire... Remember a large part of Dune population was addicted to the spice and would die without it... Including most Mentat....
As for the game, never played it, but we donot usually agrue about games..

[Patrick Degan]

Arrakis is the key. Without the spice, the Imperium civilisation loses entirely the ability for galactic travel.

The Empire, by contrast, is not dependent upon spice for anything at all.

Therefore, the best way for the Empire to win this war is a Death Star attack on Arrakis.

After that, it is a mere question of time before the remaining supplies of spice are exhausted, after which the Imperium will collapse when it is deprived of the ability to access space and its worlds can be taken at will.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Okay. How about the Protoss???

[The Nomad]

They may take years to reproduce, but if 1 Protoss is able to kill hundreds of Ordos and physically tear them apart into red pulp with its Psionic blades, I doubt it has much meaning. Over-quality often beats over-quantity.

And don't Dragoons and Scarabs ( or whatever the names of those bloody caterpillars ! ) count as tanks and artillery ?

[omegaLancer]

Warfare in dune, at least according to books, was a personal matter. and even with Las pistols, varies slug throwers, and Space fighter, was fought in the manner of medieval armies.

In Dune the Freemen, were armed with sonic weapons, but it was their hand to hand abilities that broke the The Emperors troops ( who were the toughest survivers from the Emperor's prison planet, which was use to weed the weak..) NO Ducal army could stand up to these troops, who where the Emperor version of the Foreign legion..

The emperor had hope to bring his superior space force to bear, but the Freemen attack during a storm that they knew would render any air power useless.

In Dune Messaih and childern of Dune, it was mention several times that Close combat infantry was the main method of combat, paul and leto Ponder the addition of Mechanized forces to the battle field. But no other Ducal power had the Manufacturing base to create such forces..

In the presequal, there are several scenes of the Space forces each house maintain, and the fact that each house had Atomic weapons that could be use to retailate in the event that Atomic were used... And Actual the original home World of the house of Corrin had suffered from an atomic attack be enemy house. But a house greatest asset was a sword master, a warrior train in all manners of hand to hand combat and range weapons...

The Emperor of Dune and the later novels did have Space base attacks agains Planets, but no planet had any real planetary defense, and Dune shields provide no protection from atomic weapons...

With Enegry weapons that range in atomic range, and SW forces various Ground( Walkers, hover sleds, Droid tanks, etc) and Space forces, No force in the Dune Galaxy is a threat.. The fact is that they do not have the technology to match the SW Empire ( just look at the fact that for flying Othro copter is commonily used , while anti gravity is a cheap and wide spread SW tech..) And the Shield that SW forces can deploy can easily withstand atomic weapons and protect whole planets..

[Antediluvian]

They may take years to reproduce, but if 1 Protoss is able to kill hundreds of Ordos and physically tear them apart into red pulp with its Psionic blades, I doubt it has much meaning. Over-quality often beats over-quantity.

And don't Dragoons and Scarabs ( or whatever the names of those bloody caterpillars ! ) count as tanks and artillery ?

Dragoons: I suppose.

Reavers: No. They are definitely not artillery.

[Kolinar Romanov]

They may take years to reproduce, but if 1 Protoss is able to kill hundreds of Ordos and physically tear them apart into red pulp with its Psionic blades, I doubt it has much meaning. Over-quality often beats over-quantity.

And don't Dragoons and Scarabs ( or whatever the names of those bloody caterpillars ! ) count as tanks and artillery ?

Oh really ? Have you forgoten that i mentioned that , for this debate, all protoss units were to be shielded ?

Besides, get your facts right: a single zealot cannot take on a hundreds of Ordos soldiers armed with a chemical that potentially can harm all organic materials, through corrosion, if not respitory, and not to forget that it can also corrode metal ? Besides, what about saboteurs ? These guys are armed with bombs that can blow up buildings with their bombs. Zealots can't stand up to that !

And even before those zealots can reach enemy lines: they have to withstand heavy mortar and missiles. Most would lose their shielding, and some may get slaughtered, before they can reach the large numbers of Ordos infantry.

Dragoons, and reavers, okay, so they're powerful,m but so are the laser tanks, the Kobra. ANd they're all robotic.

The Deviator is going to have a field day here.

[The Nomad]

I just checked the manual, Reavers are reputed to destroy entire colonies in the blink of an eye. Artillery, with guided projectiles ( Scarabs ) probably.


And yes, protoss units are shielded, aren't they, what's your point ?
If you mean the Ordos ones, then remember, Zealots use Psi blades, which might no be described are either energy or physical weapons. OTOH, psionic shields can stop all kind of attacks.

And corrosive weapons would be effective against Protoss units, but combat gases might not affect Protoss' entirely alien physiology. And Protoss units are way faster than humans, especially with leg enhancements ( if you use game dynamics, but even with the mere shape of their legs, they look like they're able to run like hell ).

[The Nomad]

And how works the Deviator ? Gas ? In that case both Dragoons and Reavers would laugh.

[Kolinar Romanov]

I just checked the manual, Reavers are reputed to destroy entire colonies in the blink of an eye. Artillery, with guided projectiles ( Scarabs ) probably.


And yes, protoss units are shielded, aren't they, what's your point ?
If you mean the Ordos ones, then remember, Zealots use Psi blades, which might no be described are either energy or physical weapons. OTOH, psionic shields can stop all kind of attacks.

And corrosive weapons would be effective against Protoss units, but combat gases might not affect Protoss' entirely alien physiology. And Protoss units are way faster than humans, especially with leg enhancements ( if you use game dynamics, but even with the mere shape of their legs, they look like they're able to run like hell ).

And how works the Deviator ? Gas ? In that case both Dragoons and Reavers would laugh.

1. The point is, the Ordos shields can withstand a few blows from the Zealots psionic blades. Of course, those frickin' blades are powerful, BUT, you must remember that the ordos can use such time to react.

2. Protoss units may be way faster than humans, but, in the case of zealots..... saboteurs are also fast. they're mindless kamikaze units, their bombs as powerful as a scarab from a reaver. One sabotuer can take out a zealot, and, since they're shielded, the bades cannot damage them, so, the sabotuer can blow up on his own, and damage the zealot to perdition.

3. Oh really ? Have you even known the previous effects of the gas ?

Sure, the reaver and dragoon can laugh, BUT.....

"The gas has the ability to manipulate ON-BOARD COMPUTERS."

And most protoss units are robotic, and somewhat controlled by computers !

Voila ! The revaer gets turned to the Ordos side, even though temporarily, and the dead Protoss may laugh, but his computer wouldn't.