The Acceptability of Using Disabilities to Insult

[Losonti Tokash]

Not only do those words have a totally different connotation, it's totally irrelevant to what I just said. I know you love being as pedantic as possible, but exercise some human empathy once in a while. Do not contribute to the dehumanization of a group of people who've had some pretty horrific shit done to them over the years and still get treated as subhuman.

[Flagg]

I guess my view is that the term doesn't foster hatred or violence against the mentally disabled in the way that other terms do against minorities and homosexuals, so it's acceptable. The worst it does in my view is hurt feelings. Lots of words do that.

[Losonti Tokash]

It probably should. They've been the victims of some fucking awful atrocities, too.

[Flagg]

It probably should. They've been the victims of some fucking awful atrocities, too.

Yeah, but what does that have to do with use of the word retard?

[Losonti Tokash]

Because it's functionally identical to using a racial or homophobic slur, dude. There's no difference.

Edit: you're singling a group out for ridicule, placing their supposed stereotypes upon whoever you're insulting. Just because the person you're calling a retard doesn't have a developmental disability doesn't make it any more acceptable than calling a straight person a fag.

[Flagg]

Yes there is. Using a racial or homophobic slur is something that is violent and hateful, while using the word retard is not. I'm not saying it's a nice word, but just because in the past the mentally impaired were treated as subhumans doesn't make it a hateful one.

[Losonti Tokash]

Uh, except it is hateful. And there's plenty of violence and hatred directed against people with a developmental disability today, even if it's not always so blatant. Do we get to go into how you don't get to decide whether a word is offensive, the group you're using as a literal insult does?

[Flagg]

I think society gets to decide which words are offensive, otherwise any group can claim any word is offensive and off limits.

[Simon_Jester]

Just out of curiosity, would you be perpetuating the same dehumanization if you use the words "fool," "idiot," or "moron?" Because all three of those have been technical terms for someone with a mental disability that leaves them seriously handicapped. Even "stupid" has arguably been used that way.

Take the list of synonyms for "badly-thinking person." Knock out all the ones that can be claimed to dehumanize. What's left?

That's part of point 3- all of those terms have been dissociated from their medical definition in the public mind and so they are not on the same level as "retard" because they don't carry the connotation of developmental disability.

Would they ever have gotten there if people weren't allowed to use them, on account of how they were insulting?

No. That's the same bullshit Cowl was spinning in that gay Jedi thread. Lacking the ability to think and reason at the level of an adult human is objectively negative, in and of itself. You could put two people on identical desert islands with nobody else for hundreds of miles, and the person with impaired cognitive function is still going to be worse off than the other. This is not the same as having enemies through no fault of your own just because they're bigots.

Let's extend this. A social butterfly will do worse than a loner in that situation- I guess being highly desirous of social interaction is objectively bad! A depressed, schizophrenic, or bipolar individual will do worse than someone in good mental health, so I guess mental disorders should be used as insults, as the mentally ill are objectively inferior to ordinary people! Hell, someone from a South Pacific environment will outdo other people not from that environment in that situation, so I guess we'd better starting kneeling before the objectively-superior Melanesians! Or, hey, someone with higher intelligence will probably do better by adapting quicker to the environment, with a bunch of implications.

OK, now this is just blatant absurdity as an attempt to dismiss his point. "I am the class clown, therefore your argument is invalid."

Does that make Grumman right? I'm not saying it does. But sheesh.

I think society gets to decide which words are offensive, otherwise any group can claim any word is offensive and off limits.

Either way, you don't get to decide. You are not a representative sample of the population.

This is why old men get funny looks for saying "Negro," and have for decades, even though when they were kids it was a perfectly acceptable term. And even if they don't see any reason why people stopped using it.

[Flagg]

I think society gets to decide which words are offensive, otherwise any group can claim any word is offensive and off limits.

Either way, you don't get to decide. You are not a representative sample of the population.

This is why old men get funny looks for saying "Negro," and have for decades, even though when they were kids it was a perfectly acceptable term. And even if they don't see any reason why people stopped using it.

Where did I claim I was the arbiter of what words society deems acceptable? I think the fact that it's used in popular media shows that it's not on the level of racial slurs.

[Losonti Tokash]

Pretty sure that if a society thinks it's okay to treat a group of people as subhuman and use a word for that group as an insult against other people, society is fucking wrong. You go comfort a 4 year old girl with Down's who starts bawling because she saw someone else get called a retard. Then you tell me that it isn't a hateful word. Your standard is so fucking awful it makes the use of n----- and anti-Semitic slurs acceptable around WW2 because it was just accepted by society at large.

Fuck it, Flagg. I know you liked using the n word in regards to Tubbs, just get all the white people in a group to agree it's okay and no one will have the right to say you're an asshole.

[Flagg]

Pretty sure that if a society thinks it's okay to treat a group of people as subhuman and use a word for that group as an insult against other people, society is fucking wrong. You go comfort a 4 year old girl with Down's who starts bawling because she saw someone else get called a retard. Then you tell me that it isn't a hateful word. Your standard is so fucking awful it makes the use of n----- and anti-Semitic slurs acceptable around WW2 because it was just accepted by society at large.

Retard isn't used in a violent way though, that's my fucking point. If the worst it does is hurt feelings then as terrible as it is for that 4 year old, it's not harmful to society. If people start using it as a way to incite violence then it becomes unacceptable.

Fuck it, Flagg. I know you liked using the n word in regards to Tubbs, just get all the white people in a group to agree it's okay and no one will have the right to say you're an asshole.

I'm ashamed of doing that, and at the time just did it to make him go away, which was no excuse. It was wrong and I still cringe when remembering it. But it's just not the same.

[Losonti Tokash]

What the hell do you even mean by "used in a violent way"? Why has the standard now shifted to not include "hateful"? How is the dehumanization and degradation of a group of innocent people considered only good for ridicule not harmful to society?

[Flagg]

What the hell do you even mean by "used in a violent way"?

I was looking for the word "incite". If a word incites violence.

Why has the standard now shifted to not include "hateful"? How is the dehumanization and degradation of a group of innocent people considered only good for ridicule not harmful to society?

How does me calling someone a retard dehumanize and degrade people with mental disabilities? I fully admit it offends them, but so what? I don't use the word around them and would never use it to attack them verbally. So how is it harmful?

[Losonti Tokash]

1) Because you are showing that you view it as acceptable to mock them and use them as an object of ridicule to insult someone else.
2) You're showing that you don't view them as deserving of the same respect as other people.
3) If you think it's okay as long as it's not directed at or around them in particular, do you view it as acceptable to use racial and homophobic slurs around straight white men? After all, none of those groups are around to hear it.

If you wanna keep doing that shit, I can't stop you. But it's wrong, it's disgusting, and I won't just ignore it.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that violence isn't directed against people with a developmental disability by virtue of who they are. That's pretty funny/sad.

[Flagg]

1) Because you are showing that you view it as acceptable to mock them and use them as an object of ridicule to insult someone else.

Except I don't think it's ok to mock them, and have said so repeatedly. I don't see how using the word mocks them.

2) You're showing that you don't view them as deserving of the same respect as other people.

How is that, exactly?

3) If you think it's okay as long as it's not directed at or around them in particular, do you view it as acceptable to use racial and homophobic slurs around straight white men? After all, none of those groups are around to hear it.

Absolutely not, because those slurs are used to incite violence.

If you wanna keep doing that shit, I can't stop you. But it's wrong, it's disgusting, and I won't just ignore it.

I disagree, and I think you need to get over your being offended by it.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that violence isn't directed against people with a developmental disability by virtue of who they are. That's pretty funny/sad.

I'm not under that impression at all.

[Bakustra]

Just out of curiosity, would you be perpetuating the same dehumanization if you use the words "fool," "idiot," or "moron?" Because all three of those have been technical terms for someone with a mental disability that leaves them seriously handicapped. Even "stupid" has arguably been used that way.

Take the list of synonyms for "badly-thinking person." Knock out all the ones that can be claimed to dehumanize. What's left?

That's part of point 3- all of those terms have been dissociated from their medical definition in the public mind and so they are not on the same level as "retard" because they don't carry the connotation of developmental disability.

Would they ever have gotten there if people weren't allowed to use them, on account of how they were insulting?

Please don't put words into my mouth. Thank you.

No. That's the same bullshit Cowl was spinning in that gay Jedi thread. Lacking the ability to think and reason at the level of an adult human is objectively negative, in and of itself. You could put two people on identical desert islands with nobody else for hundreds of miles, and the person with impaired cognitive function is still going to be worse off than the other. This is not the same as having enemies through no fault of your own just because they're bigots.

Let's extend this. A social butterfly will do worse than a loner in that situation- I guess being highly desirous of social interaction is objectively bad! A depressed, schizophrenic, or bipolar individual will do worse than someone in good mental health, so I guess mental disorders should be used as insults, as the mentally ill are objectively inferior to ordinary people! Hell, someone from a South Pacific environment will outdo other people not from that environment in that situation, so I guess we'd better starting kneeling before the objectively-superior Melanesians! Or, hey, someone with higher intelligence will probably do better by adapting quicker to the environment, with a bunch of implications.

OK, now this is just blatant absurdity as an attempt to dismiss his point. "I am the class clown, therefore your argument is invalid."

Does that make Grumman right? I'm not saying it does. But sheesh.

If there is absurdity, I am merely exposing it. There is no difference between "mentally handicapped people are OBJECTIVELY INFERIOR because they would do worse in this situation" and "normal people are OBJECTIVELY INFERIOR because they would do worse in this situation", except what is considered to be normal. You can't extend this only one way- if developmentally disabled people are inferior because they would do worse than average, then people who do better than average must therefore be superior and other people who do worse than average must also be inferior. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Losonti Tokash]

Here's the thought process, in little words when possible so you might understand it.

1) "Retard" is a word that can be used to describe a group
2) Calling someone a retard is meant to be an insult by way of comparing them to said group
3) If you didn't have a negative view of that group based on your own prejudices, you wouldn't use it as an insult, nor would you encourage that behavior in other people
4) Your distinction that it only counts if it incites violence ignores that violence and rape against people with a developmental disability BECAUSE of their disability is a very real and common thing, just like people are assaulted for being black or gay.
5) Their status as primarily an object of ridicule diminishes their perceived worth and standing as human beings and opens them to further abuses. Bigotry in all its forms is most common as jokes aimed at the expense of the "other."

[Losonti Tokash]

Btw, fuck off with "get over being offended." I see the effects attitudes like yours have.

[Flagg]

I use the word retard as an insult to mean "particularly stupid". Newsflash, language changes over time. Anyone who would call a mentally handicapped person a retard is despicable.

[Flagg]

Btw, fuck off with "get over being offended." I see the effects attitudes like yours have.

You seem to have some personal issue with the word retard being used as an insult, so you really need to get over being offended by it.

[Losonti Tokash]

So you think latent bigotry is inherently more acceptable than the blatant type? Or that the word just means whatebver you say it does? I guess now all those dudes who love the n word can just go around saying "I'm not insulting black people, it just means someone who's stupid and lazy."

The personal issue I have is that it makes good peoples' lives fucking horrible because they hear a derogatory word meant to insult them in particular used constantly every day by people who don't stop to think about what they're saying.

[Flagg]

I don't think it's bigotry. And again, the n word is used to incite violence.

[Losonti Tokash]

Please explain what is so special about the word retard that it cannot be used to incite violence. Or that that is the primary purpose of a slur. Or that treating a group of people as inferior isn't bigotry.

[Flagg]

The personal issue I have is that it makes good peoples' lives fucking horrible because they hear a derogatory word meant to insult them in particular used constantly every day by people who don't stop to think about what they're saying.

If hearing a word used in a way not directed towards them and not meant to be harmful to them makes their lives horrible then maybe they should be taught that.