Capitalism and Christianity are polar opposites!

[Superman]

Now many are wondering how I can make such a statement, so let me explain. What is the point of capitalism? Money, accumulation, promotions in your job, earning more money than the next guy, etc. In other words, GREED.

Now, how does one reconcile capitalism with statements such as "a rich man getting into Heaven is like a camel going through the eye of a needle?" Jesus also told a rich man to sell all of his possessions and follow him.

I am not going into a lengthy post here, so what comments do you have? I don't believe that the two systems can be reconciled.

[Darth Wong]

Now many are wondering how I can make such a statement, so let me explain. What is the point of capitalism? Money, accumulation, promotions in your job, earning more money than the next guy, etc. In other words, GREED.

Now, how does one reconcile capitalism with statements such as "a rich man getting into Heaven is like a camel going through the eye of a needle?" Jesus also told a rich man to sell all of his possessions and follow him.

I am not going into a lengthy post here, so what comments do you have? I don't believe that the two systems can be reconciled.

They can't. Working to generate personal wealth and luxury is the basis of capitalism and it is completely incompatible with the core values of Christianity. Luckily, Christians have this escape clause that they don't have to follow, respect, or even give two shits about the values espoused by Jesus, because as long as they believe in him, they get a "get out of Hell free" card.

[Strafe]

Erm...what?

Of course they aren't polar opposites. Capitalism doesn't entail that one becomes greedy. Heck let's put it this way, Bill Gates (I don't know if he is a Christian, but I'm just using him as an example), is able to do a lot of good with his money. Whether or not you hate him, he does give a large chunk of his money to charity. The same goes for any Christian, being a capitalist doesn't matter so long as you still are compassionate and give to help others.

Capitalism is simply a means to an end.

The quotes you stated, as I interpret them are targeted at those who give nothing and hoard their wealth at the expense of others who need it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make money though.

[Joe]

Didn't Jesus say that to be perfect in the eyes of God, you had to give up all of your possessions?

[Montcalm]

I don`t think capitalism and christianity are opposite,if you see the catholic church is christian yet it has accumulated so much wealth it nullify their rule of poverty.

[Joe]

I don`t think capitalism and christianity are opposite,if you see the catholic church is christian yet it has accumulated so much wealth it nullify their rule of poverty.

That just makes them a bunch of hypocrites.

[The_Nice_Guy]

Banks, a key part of modern day capitalism, were considered sinful by the Church when they first appeared in Italy, IIRC.

The Nice Guy

[Joe]

Banks, a key part of modern day capitalism, were considered sinful by the Church when they first appeared in Italy, IIRC.

The Nice Guy

Oh, of course, the Church has always considered interest a crime against humanity.

[neoolong]

So what would this make Communism?

[Joe]

So what would this make Communism?

It's nonexistence. Communism is non-religious.

[RedImperator]

Mike, try dealing with the Christians who take that "camel through the eye of a needle" horseshit seriously. You get Marxist Catholics, the worst of both worlds. A little hypocracy is good for everyone sometimes.

[XPViking]

They can't. Working to generate personal wealth and luxury is the basis of capitalism and it is completely incompatible with the core values of Christianity. Luckily, Christians have this escape clause that they don't have to follow, respect, or even give two shits about the values espoused by Jesus, because as long as they believe in him, they get a "get out of Hell free" card.

Okay. I think you are referring to the "Success Doctrine". That is, look at all the blessings in my life. Since I'm really blessed, therefore I must be more of a Christian.

Conversely, the "Poverty Doctrine" goes something like this; the poorer you are, the more humble you are and therefore you are closer to God since you are poor.

The problem with both of them is that they end up justifying their position based on how well they are doing in comparison with someone else. If I'm off base here, someone please correct me.

XPViking

[Superman]

The bottom line is that Christians are stupid.

[XPViking]

Come on, Superman. That's a hasty generalization right there.

XPViking

[Frank_Scenario]

Max Weber argues (in The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism) that modern capitalism was 'inspired' by early Protestants. His argument, if I remember correctly, runs like this:
Early Protestants (specifically Calvinists) have the doctrine of predestination. In practice, this meant people were expected to act a certain way to show others that they were part of the elect. In particular, they had a quality that Weber calls "worldly asceticism." This quality was a work ethic that told the good Calvinists to work hard, earn their keep, and then reinvest the proceeds in their business. After the rise of this sort of Protestant ethic (like in the title of the book), capitalism arose in the predominantly Calvinist (and Anabaptist, and Puritan) areas of Europe. From there, it traveled to America. Weber argues that the essential motivation for capitalism is the Protestant work ethic.

I'm not a big fan of Weber. However, I understand that there's still debate over the legitimacy of Weber in contemporary sociology. The most obvious anomaly that Weber has to deal with is Japan (and the problem of identifying causation in this situation).

Anyway, it's an example of Christianity working with capitalism.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Yes, televangelists tell people to accept the teachings of Jesus, but why don't they follow him too, and stop seperating morons from their money to get rich?

But then again, Jesus just might have been telling people to sell their worldly possesions just so he could have them.

[lgot]

Actually, Weber said this long ago. And He was very much correct. Not many people deny his comparasion with Catholic and Protestants.
The Catholic church changed a lot, to adapt and survive in the capitalist world and they now accept easily the capitalist world and this argument can be no longer used with the same christians Weber found.
But now, any christian can easily argument that Jesus had nothing against Capitalism. For once, because there can be good capitalists. For two Jesus told his disciples to keep possessions to survive when He died. For three, Jesus never told anything about economic doutrine, so he did not actually condem capitalist.
now, A greedy capitalist that steel and left someone die, would be over as anyone that does that, capitalist or not.

[Darth Wong]

But now, any christian can easily argument that Jesus had nothing against Capitalism. For once, because there can be good capitalists. For two Jesus told his disciples to keep possessions to survive when He died. For three, Jesus never told anything about economic doutrine, so he did not actually condem capitalist.

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven"- Jesus.

Sorry, but Jesus DID condemn capitalism. It is impossible to be a successful capitalist without simply ignoring or disregarding that line.

[Strafe]

But now, any christian can easily argument that Jesus had nothing against Capitalism. For once, because there can be good capitalists. For two Jesus told his disciples to keep possessions to survive when He died. For three, Jesus never told anything about economic doutrine, so he did not actually condem capitalist.

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven"- Jesus.

Sorry, but Jesus DID condemn capitalism. It is impossible to be a successful capitalist without simply ignoring or disregarding that line.

If you take it literally perhaps. But I sincerely doubt it. Like much of the Bible, the proper context is necessary. At the time, those who were rich were corrupt, selfish, power-hungry people, not to mention which the majority of the Jews were under the domination of a foreign empire. So Jesus saying "rich" is referring to those in power who have the capability to do great good, but instead horde their wealth at the great expense of others. That isn't anti-capitalistic by any means.

[lgot]

no, because I am and you are, Capitalists. We live and we act as member of that. He condem the rich people, not the capitalist. I am not rich and I may be wrong, I think you are not. And Yet, capitalists we are.
He condems those with power, regardless of the economic system, becuase Rich people is not a trait of capitalism.
He could say the same for be a sucessful absolutist, a sucessful feudalist, a sucessful imperialist. He does not say anything about capitalism.

[Joe]

But now, any christian can easily argument that Jesus had nothing against Capitalism. For once, because there can be good capitalists. For two Jesus told his disciples to keep possessions to survive when He died. For three, Jesus never told anything about economic doutrine, so he did not actually condem capitalist.

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven"- Jesus.

Sorry, but Jesus DID condemn capitalism. It is impossible to be a successful capitalist without simply ignoring or disregarding that line.

Oh, come on, Jesus had it out for everyone, not just rich folks. Anyone who didn't follow him was going to hell as far as he was concerned, rich or poor.

[The Dark]

There are such things as poor capitalists. Seriously, for a religion major, the military pays better than the civilian world. I may live in a capitalist society, but I really don't care that much about money. When I have more than I need, I give it away to some sort of charitable organization (usually Habitat for Humanity, since I've worked with those people). I've generally heard it preached that the condemnation is against those who make money the priority in their life.

[Frank_Scenario]

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven"- Jesus.

Sorry, but Jesus DID condemn capitalism. It is impossible to be a successful capitalist without simply ignoring or disregarding that line.

Actually, Christ couldn't have been condemning modern capitalism here, because it didn't exist. The wealthy of the time, as Strafe and Igot point out, were condemned for refusing to use their power and wealth for good. This ignores the potentially-idolatrous aspect of wealth; the wealthy put wealth above else, including God, which was problematic from Christ's point of view. I don't know of anyone (excepting, possibly, some Eastern Orthodox monks) who interprets the passage you quote (Matthew 20:23) and its preceding story (of a rich man who refuses to give up his possessions to follow Christ) to mean that failure to give up all your possessions is an offense against God, although you have to be willing to do so if called.

Most people interpret this passage as The Dark does-don't put money above God in your life.

Also, there is a longstanding Deuteronomic tradition in Judaism and Christianity that is still extant today, where your worldy success is seen as a sign of your salvation/righteousness. In this tradition (which I'm not a fan of), if you are poor, God is punishing you for something you did. This tradition is explicitly contradicted by the poetic core of Job in the modern Bible, but it holds on nontheless.

[Darth Gojira]

(Scene from "Cartoon History of the Universe") Priest(to Jewish moneylender): "The Devil's buisness! Can you spare me fifty?"

[Darth Servo]

Read Acts chapter 4 and 5. The first century church practiced the idea of communal wealth, NOT individual possessions. People who tried to cheat the system died.

Acts 4:32-5:11
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.


But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.